Talk:Framework Programmes for Research and Technological Development
![]() | SUPER was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 09 August 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Framework Programmes for Research and Technological Development. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | ISTAG was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 04 August 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Framework Programmes for Research and Technological Development. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | European Union Start‑class Mid‑importance | |||||||||
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Merge request
I have converted the EU Framework Program for Research and Technological Development article into a redirect page that leads here as the article contained on this pagecorresponds to all Wikipedia standards whereas the other one is simply redundant and "unencyclopaedic". RedZebra 16:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
copyedit for conciseness
I started removing the over-promotional language, removing PR jargon to make a more effective discussion. This in an encyclopedia, not a promotional web site. There's still some more to go. I added subheads, but references are needed for the criticism section, and a few key terms need internal links. DGG (talk) 23:19, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Still a bit congratulary?
Apart from being quite sceptical of Muldur et al.'s claims of returns on investment (I doubt the reliabilitiy of a prediction of returns on a current, i.e. 2006, research investment 25-30 years in the future, especially as it pertains to overall impact on GDP growth), I believe this article still needs revision.
Passages such as:
"There are also the intangible result of providing incentive to face the intrinsic complexity of international collaborations."
("Sounds like it's good, why? Because we say so." And btw, what exactly is the point of this claim?)
"Changes triggered by research policy directly affect people and enterprises, which experience broader horizons and experience the advantages of international collaboration." (Well the fact that changes caused by research effect people and businesses is hardly surprising... Apart from that: the "advantages" of collaboration could actually be downsides/failures, if the collaboration goes awry?)
"Diversity introduces additional costs, but it facilitates addressing competitors in an even more diverse world." (How exactly does diversity facilitate addressing competitors? And again what exactly is the point of this passage? And what does it actually mean?)
"This complements the institutional activities of the EU, building a community united in diversity capable of facing the challenges of a globalized world." (Well hurrah, bring out your blue & star banners... Why is this here? It sounds more like a promotional slogan than an encyclopedic entry) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mojowiha (talk • contribs) 23:03, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds like government-speak justifying the political correctness of the grants favoring collaboration across countries that speak diferent languages and have different cultures. This is probably worth mentioning, because indeed diversity had both advantages and challenges. But needs to in plain English and not obfuscated promotion. W Nowicki (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
The projects
When I saw a few of the projects up for deletion, I started merging the one line about each that had some info into this article. The articles generally read like the promotional language of the grant applications, not appropriate for Wikipedia. It seems there are many more projects that have articles but do not seem notable, and even more projects that never had articles. See Category:FP5 Projects Category:FP6 Projects and Category:Seventh Framework Programme projects (note inconsistent category naming). I then thought about a table, but if there are hundreds of projects that could get unwieldy. Perhaps one idea would be a general discussion of the thrusts of each program, if we can cut through the government-speak. For example, I noticed many projects on "Grid computing" which was trendy at the time. There is even a FP6 Grid Computing Projects list article with a table already. And the List of grid computing projects list which should probably go, since the term quickly got untrendy. Any thoughts? W Nowicki (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- Many articles analogous to ISTAG exist, including Webinos and SUPER. Many are currently flagged for deletion, and the discussions I have seen, especially on the two pages mentioned, are converging towards deletion or, where the possibility is mentioned, merging with Framework Programmes for Research and Technological Development. Most or all of the articles seem to reflect these instructions. Many more such articles exist but have not been flagged. All these articles are peers and should be handled in a consistent way; in my opinion by merging them here. Naming all the constituent projects in a table is probably not necessary. Appropriate External References would suffice. After all, this topic is about FPRTD handling its own publicity rather than leveraging Wikipedia. Ornithikos (talk) 03:55, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with this way of handling them, except of course, for any projects which are actually notable, though I'm not sure what the criteria should be. At the least any projects with substantial discussions about the project by 3rd party RSs will meet the GNG. I doubt this applies to most of them.
- Third-party sources must be used carefully. Those that I've seen so far in this connection look like press releases from the same sources that created the nonqualifying articles. I think the plan is to create a furore about each project, then justify each component of the furore by citing other components as independent sources. Perhaps "substantial discussions ... by 3rd party RSs" excludes such bootstrapping; I don't know what an RS is in this context. Ornithikos (talk) 01:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- I must say that I deeply disagree with the reasons expressed for deleting project articles in general, and for some specific reasons stated; in my opinion they show a misunderstanding of the rules and purpose of wikipedia, and they will prevent to document the way things work for EU projects (or worked for the past 10 years). I might be the one at fault though, so I'll elaborate the concept. I stumbled on the issue as I discovered the recent deletion of a project which is not even mentioned in this talk page. I also state in advance that I'm no english native speaker, so ignore the "tone" of my writing where it seems odd, offensive or whatever: I apologize in advance. --Max-CCC (talk) 04:17, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
- The fact that some projects have articles and some others have not is no good reason to discard all project articles; similarly, the practical issues of creating a summary page is no good reason to remove the project pages. While creating a standard is good, wikipedia is based on user contribution: you don't rule out useful contribution cause it doesn't fit your standard, you discuss the standard and convince contributors to adopt it.
- That some projects have self-advertising pages IS a good reason to delete them; however, this is to be discussed and done on each project page, and motivated on the ground of the specific page. Just placing a redirect and summarizing as you see fit places one criteria of notability and importance (which it was noted it is quite difficult to state what it should be) above that of the contributors of many other pages. Not all of them will be wrong, especially if pages have been around and updated for years.
- We are all underestimating the value and strength of wikipedia: as each project page was subject to the scrutiny of the wikipedians, it was possible to reach an unbiased corpus of information on EU projects which was much more useful that a simple list of project names with links to their web site (those ARE definitely self-biased). Previous pages for FP5, FP6 projects were evolving, or had the opportunity to evolve, into a form of history of the research in Europe. If instead of discussing the issues of each page, they are consistently removed, we save a lot of our time but we will actually decrease the usefulness and quality of wikipedia content.
- The above is obvious from the comment that many project were based on the Grid buzzword. While the statement is entirely true, this is no reason at all for deleting information. We can discuss how to provide the information, e.g. if a separate list of project related to grid computing still makes sense when there is already a full list for ICT, but the information is factual and useful to evaluate what was the conduction and waht were the outcomes of FP6; how much that buzzword affected the FP. If you remove too much information on the ground that Grid is no longer an active buzzword, you are introducing a recentism. I.e. Grid was a buzzword and wikipedia shall document it some way, as new buzzword are around now, and more will be in the coming years.
- One thing is to forbid overambitious, self incensing statements in a page, which I fully agree; another thing is to remove the page cause the project was financed and run, but it did not achieve its utopic target: this is hiding the facts, it should be stated that a grand challenge was failed and to what extent.
- In summary, I do not see fit that pages are redirected or voted here skipping a discussion for each one on their talk page. It is too easy to flag one hundred pages for deletion, wait a week and start almost from scratch. IMHO this conduct should be avoided as it fails at matching the spirit of wikipedia as much as self-promotion does. --Max-CCC (talk) 04:17, 1 October 2011 (UTC)