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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 115.132.40.8 (talk) at 08:03, 22 September 2011 (→The Libyan Revolution). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Worldwide

I feel that the Arab Spring should be Worldwide Spring due to the fact that now Spain is being protested for the same reasons as Egypt, Libya, etc (Corruption, economy, and want real democracy etc) Also they both use social networks to help promote the protests. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.155.15 (talk) 19:24, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Spain is neither a dictatorship nor an absolutist monarchy, like the arab countries are. You might want to check out the Impact of the Arab Spring article. - 79.113.70.241 (talk) 10:32, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Protests happen every year in democracies. Now that there is a big wave of protests in more oppressed states, why are the protests in democracies suddenly so interesting? Wisconsin, Spain, Italy, and Greece were going to happen despite the Arab Spring, and so would have Vancouver. --75.17.116.211 (talk) 04:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Completely disagree. The difference in scale between Spain/Greece/Wisconsin and Tunisia/Libya/etc. is quite staggering - and social networks have been used in protests for years already. 88.89.108.212 (talk) 00:19, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with 88.89.108.212 and 79.113.70.241 entirely. These protests are already covered under Impact of the Arab Spring to some degree, and besides, "Worldwide Spring" is, I presume, a term that has existed for all of ten days and is known to ~4 people. Original research par excellence. Laika Talk: Laika 17:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it is better to keep the scope of this article within the Arab world. The significance of these events is their unprecedented effect on the entire middle east and northern Africa. If the article were to include Spain, Greece, etc. then it loses its focus, and as stated earlier, the proper place to discuss the relationships (or lack thereof) between these protests and the rest of the world is in the Impact of the Arab Spring page.Beecher70 (talk) 02:36, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't consider that Western Sahara, Morocco, Mauritania part of the Arab world. It should be considered Worldwide and not just the Arab world — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.28.2.132 (talk) 20:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? Morocco is 90% muslim and they speak Arabic.Ericl (talk) 13:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting the article

The article size is massive, and both editing and browsing are very unwieldy.

I suggest that some of the longer sections for individual events be condensed to one or two paragraphs, like the "Tunisian revolution" section is already; and that a dedicated "International reactions" page be spun off and that section condensed to a

Main article: International reactions to the Arab Spring


Would anyone be opposed to doing this? I'm just tired of waiting five minutes for the servers to process a minor edit to the page (and at least half that time to load it). -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:36, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see you went ahead and did this, cutting the readable prose size from 58 kB/9290 words to 42 kB/6769 words. Excellent job. Swarm X 19:56, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Others section arrangement and updates

I think Saudi Arabia part should be in the "Concurrent incidents" by itself. Also the "Palestinian Territories" and The "UAE" need updating. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 14:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Saudi Arabia should definitely be split off. Not sure it qualifies for "major protests" yet, though. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Saudi arabia is not major but the part is too long to part of the "Concurrent incidents" so it needs to spilt. so what do you have in mind? -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 09:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think let's just split it off anyway. -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's summer.

Are we to include every event in the Middle East post-spring as a result of it? I fear future conflicts or events will be regulated to "Arab Spring" status even if they are totally unrelated and in another season. It gives the impression that this "Spring" is somehow a trigger for international conflicts. I assume only events mentioned in reliable sources that are explicitly described as part of the "Arab Spring" will be included right? WikifanBe nice 07:44, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just yesterday, the foreign minister of New Zealand gave a speech on what he repeatedly referred to as the "Arab Spring". The speech was entitled "The Arab Spring". Spring in New Zealand doesn't even start for another month and a half; in fact, as you note, nowhere in the world is it spring right now, yet "Arab Spring" continues to be the common name and there is no consensus among reliable sources that it is over (or that it was ever seasonally dependent; consider, if you will, that the Arab Spring began in mid-December, when it was technically still autumn in the Northern Hemisphere). So, looks like we're stuck with this moniker, even though it's not really accurate and it never really was. -Kudzu1 (talk) 07:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't question a speech made by a foreign minister but it seems Wikipedia as a community has somehow chosen to set Arab Spring to be another general "part of" system. For example, the uprising in Libya was said to be a reaction to the uprisings in Egypt, but the NATO intervention was not inspired by the spring but supposedly concerns for the lives of Libyan civilians, etc. And yet the Libyan Civil War is now part of the Arab Spring in the wikipedia article. Protests and demonstrations are one thing but full-scale wars deserve their own category. WikifanBe nice 08:28, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Secondary sources tend to support its grouping with the other protests, even though obviously the situation has escalated into something different than what other countries have experienced. I think that's a level of differentiation best left to the page for the Libyan conflict, though. -Kudzu1 (talk) 08:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think they meant "spring" as in terms of a loosening of autocracy (it's been used before in reference to Yugoslavia for example, there was a brief so-called "Croatian Spring" before Tito clamped down again on the Croat liberals). --Yalens (talk) 19:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, "spring" in this context doesn't mean the season, it's used in the sense of the Spring of Nations, Croatian Spring, Prague Spring, etc. It refers to periods of liberalization, people rising up to overcome oppression, etc. Swarm u | t 00:45, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The title was in jest. But I'm saying I hope everything post-spring in the ME won't be lumped into this "Arab Spring" category. WikifanBe nice 05:39, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Only if the media says so. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 12:17, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Article Layout

Does anyone else think the first section, Overview, is a wee bit picture and table overloaded? I suggest removing the table, which doesn't tell us anything the map, timeline or summaries at the bottom doesn't. Any better suggestions? Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 12:20, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It does give us casualty counts, and it's in an easy-to-browse format. That being said, it takes up a lot of space, does contain a lot of redundant information, and its removal would reduce the size of the article. -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:20, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Remove Timeline Picture - keep the Map & Casualty count. --Smart (talk) 20:39, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can agree to removing the timeline. Maybe we could reduce the table size, some of the fields like outcome and situation are imprecise and redundant. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 18:29, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It also may be time to consider adding a column for whether (and when) protests have ended. -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:32, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Israel Protests

Just a heads up that protestors inspired by Tahrir Square in Egypt are now protesting en masse in Tel Aviv, demanding an end to government corruption and calling for an Isreali revolution. These are Jews not Arabs but this is a major related protest.[1] --Kuzwa (talk) 05:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not related to this subject case, nothing to do with revolution or such case, its related to housing issue and mid-class protests, a.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 09:01, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Kuzwa: Huh? You sure those two are related? I've been to the tent city of TA a few times (very nice, has lots of music and speeches, clever, but oddly, no police (or so few that I can't find see any). O_O) on Rothschild Boulevard. As honor said, it's people, mostly middle class, very pissed off about housing prices (especially in TA) and economic disperity (and various bits of corruption, yes). The makeshift sign "If I were a Rothschild Boulevard" pretty much hammers that point home. There is no talk of revolution, but definitely talk of voting out Likud's coalition.... It was set off by the recent exorbatant dairy prices (You do not screw around with an Israeli's dairy products), not the Arab Spring. Read up on the Cottage Cheese boycott and other stuff, preferably from an Israeli news source (Jerusalem Post, YNet, Ha'aretz, Israel Today), not Al Jazeera.... Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 02:57, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There have been articles in reliable sources claiming there are a wide variety of demands including social justice and even talks about forming a new political party to contest elections. I agree that it doesn't belong in the Arab Spring article since Israel is not Arab. But it is as much a "revolution" as any of the other Arab states. In fact I would say more-so. The term "revolution" being applied to countries like Tunisia and Egypt is dubious from my view (and many sources have commented on this as well). Egypt and Tunisia toppled the head of state. The institutions and power structure is still intact. Egypt is still ruled by the Egyptian military and Tunisia by former government official. That is not a revolution. That is just a power transition within a system. Poyani (talk) 15:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there have been demands for various sorts of social justice (cost of living-wise, etc). Your surprise at talks of forming a new political party is a bit amusing. No offence intended, mate. However, it's not uncommon to make new political parties in Israel. I mean some flashy new ones in the last few years; Ariel Sharon made Kadima from part of Likud and then Ehud Barak made HaAtzmut, and there were talks of Gilad Schalit's family forming a political party, but they said they didn't want to. A revolution is a complete and toal change in the system, and at the end of the day, Israel will still be a multi-party parliamentary democracy. How is Israel's situation a revolution or even a potential one? More importantly, what (preferably Israeli) RSs are casting it as such? The only things I see right now are calls for the addition of social rights to the Basic Laws [2] and the Schalits joining on some of the protests. [3] Though I am still a bit woozy from an eye operation, so I could be missing some things. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 13:43, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are hundreds of thousands of people protesting in Israel. Many of them are poor and there are many migrant workers joining in the protests. There are Israelis and Palestinians protesting together. (Much of this has not been translated into English.) Whether or not you agree with the agenda of the protesters, it CERTAINLY deserves mention, especially considering Israelis have been inspired by the Egyptian revolution and have been chanting something to the effect of "Mubarak, Assad, Bibi!" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.66.78 (talk) 22:46, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Name: Arab Spring???

Wikipedia does NOT create history. Wikipedia is NOT a primary history source. Wikipedia CANNOT give name to an historic event. Therefore, this event CANNOT be named 'Arab Spring' just because Wikipedia has given it that name. I propose it to be changed. 81.32.8.229 (talk) 18:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia didn't make this name up. Please check the logs and archives before making this kind of accusation. -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:21, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I hate to use Google Hits to make a point, but "about 33,100 results" demonstrate that we didn't coin the name. Check the archives of the talk page for the thousands of threads concerning the page title. It's been resolved. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:24, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe make an account before commenting on a Wiki page. --Smart (talk) 21:20, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Don't bite the IPs. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 23:06, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah IPs dont taste good anyways >.<. IP: 81.32.8.229, the ones who give names to historic events are notable sources and people, wikipedia just takes that and puts it into a sentence with a reference to those reliable sources and people. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's widely referred to as the Arab Spring in English language media. It may be called something else in Arabic language media, and if so the article should make notice of it, but "Arab Spring" is currently the most appropriate title. 98.218.229.58 (talk) 03:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is not very important now because the debate have stopped several days ago, but for who asking about the Arabic media, the most common name is "The Arab revolutions" or "The Arab revolutions spring" --aad_Dira (talk) 13:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Arab spring isn't even accurate, it's nearly autumn now and the events are still underway. Besides the name conjures up a romantic ideal of a democratic future for the middle east when it's nowhere clear that will be the end result. Arab uprisings is a more correct naming. SpeakFree (talk) 21:53, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tell the reliable sources that. Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:59, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That most of the media label X as Y shouldn't matter, what matters is that the naming is correct and neutral, even if only a minority of the media use that name. The best selling papers are from the so-called "gutter press", we don't name London rioters "rioting scum" because many British tabloids use that phrase. SpeakFree (talk) 22:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC [4], the Guardian [5] and the New York Times [6] use the phrase Arab uprisings. As well as other reliable sources. SpeakFree (talk) 22:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As Kudzu said, "verifiable" and "accurate" are two different animals. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:30, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC, the Guardian and the New York Times are generally seen as reliable sources. So there's no reason not to choose an accurate name used by the more trustworthy reliable sources. It's not a popularity contest, Wikipedia is not a democracy. 195.241.156.43 (talk) 23:11, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with "SpeakFree", For example Tunisian revolution is not named "The Jasmin revolution" even if this romantic term has been coined in many rs. Plus, I'm not sure that what is happening in Libya or what happened in Bahrain can be described with such an optimistic term. --Tachfin (talk) 23:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Google search results: "arab uprisings" returns 1.13 million results; "arab spring" returns 7.96 million results. And FYI, "london rioters" returns 4.11 results; "rioting scum" returns 43,400 results. -Kudzu1 (talk) 00:59, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Should Google be the arbiter of what we should use as a name? SpeakFree (talk) 17:00, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify my question: many if not most links on Google are from what we would call unreliable sources. Also Wikipedia has a huge influence on the internet being a top 10 site, if we'd change the name within 6 months the new name will probably be leading the search results. Google doesn't discern about what's reliable or not (it's not in the algorithm), the site with the most hits and links goes to the top. We should use a name which covers the subject, not expresses expectations for the future. The article Prague Spring being called so is fine as we know the end result (even though the Prague spring was initially crushed we know Chzechoslovakia eventually became a democracy after the Velvet Revolution). With the so-called Arab Spring we don't known how things are going to turn out yet. SpeakFree (talk) 17:35, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Arab Spring is clearly the common name. It was the common name before this page was moved from "2010-2011 Middle East and North Africa protests" to the current title. It is the name used by many reliable sources, including a number of government officials. I see no reason to change it. -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:54, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

libya

Can someone fix the map? The civil war is about to end, the country should be in navy blue instead of brown red. 146.247.164.229 (talk) 21:20, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If anything, should be in black--81.84.51.224 (talk) 00:52, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The war isn't over. Gaddafi is still at large. Entire sections of the country remain out of the NTC's control. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, since most of the country is flying the royal flag, we should put it up in the Libya section and not the Green Gaddafi banner...Ericl (talk) 13:48, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The civil war started in February 2011. At that time, the green flag was the Libyan flag, indisputably. It should stay for historical purposes; to alter it would be revisionist history. -Kudzu1 (talk) 13:51, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It would be revisionist history, but the fact that this article isn't even talking about the possible involvement of different european(including u.s.) groups and cia provocation is revisionist recording of history. almost "reinvisioning" what's happening, as its happening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vapblack (talk • contribs) 23:33, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't a conspiracy website. Take it to a blog, please. General rule is: unless it's verifiable, it doesn't pass muster on Wikipedia. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:25, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have to reiterate the point about the flag, because someone keeps reverting it without discussion. Take a look at the 1990 US Open (tennis) article and note which flag appears next to Pieter Aldrich and Danie Visser's names. It would be revisionist to depict them as playing under the post-apartheid flag of South Africa; at the time they competed, the flag of South Africa was the apartheid-era Prinsevlag. On the World War II article, the flag of Germany is the Reichskriegsflagge, because that was the flag during wartime in Germany - even though it was abolished at the end of the war. -Kudzu1 (talk) 20:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah but what happens when the war ends, we will change it to revolution like Egypt and Tunisia, because they were pacific and libya has been an armed conflict and we should reflect that in tha map. --Polmas (talk) 10:36, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the revolutionary fervor, but Kudzu is correct. The flags in the list should be those of the pre-revolutionary governments. Otherwise it is implied that groups like the NTC were the victims of the Arab Spring, and not the result of it. Quizmoquanto (talk) 01:45, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No they shouldn't, as they are meant to show how the revolts turned out. Tunisia and Egypt are shown as black with Revolution on them, which shows their status NOW. The flags haven't changed as they're the ones still flying over there. In Libya, the revolutionaries used the pre-Gaddafi flag, and that is now the flag of the nation. Had some Libyan won a tennis tournament a few years back, using the all-green flag would still be appropriate, but when showing the results, it should what the thing is NOW. Libya should be black and have the 1951 flagEricl (talk) 13:49, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How do you figure? The countries are listed with the start dates of the protests right next to them. Libya's flag as of mid-February was indisputably the green flag; that's still the flag with the most international recognition, officially speaking, FWIW. This article is eventually going to be historical, and Quizmoquanto is absolutely right that using the NTC's flag is misleading. The protests were against Gaddafi, and Gaddafi's Libya used/uses the green flag. -Kudzu1 (talk) 13:54, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Pitching in to add my voice to that of Kudzu and Quizmo. The conflict had two sides: Rebels and Gaddafi's regime. The flag used at the beginning of the conflict may have been Gaddafi's choice, but it was also the official flag. We do not change it just because it is no longer the official flag now. If you want to see a previous implementation of this, please take a look at the 2003 Invasion of Iraq. Notice the flag used to represent Iraq is the official flag that was used at the beginning of the conflict, and NOT the current official flag of Iraq. Unflavoured (talk) 15:02, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, but the list of revolts or protests are supposed to reflect the "state of play" NOW. Iraq's flag at the end of the invasion was exactly the same as it was at the beginning (it was first changed sometime in 2004). Of all the countries in the 'Arab Spring," the only one which is likely to change it's flag is Libya, which was not a generic symbol for the country, but was regime specific. Syria's flag is NOT Baathist only, but was the flag well before the Assads took power, thus, it's probably going to remain the flag of Syria whether Dr. Bashir falls or not. Libya, as I say yet again, is different, the flag was changed to exclude Gaddafi and his green-ism. Go with the 1951 flag.Ericl (talk)
Using the 1951 flag isn't WP:NPOV. A lot of countries and organizations, including the UN and AU, still recognize the jamahiriya. Besides, Wikipedia isn't news, it's an encyclopedia, and this is eventually going to be a historical event. In February, when the protests started, Libya was under the green flag. If Egypt had changed its flag after the fall of Mubarak, would it be appropriate to change it to the new flag just because protests were still going on, as so to be "current"? -Kudzu1 (talk) 16:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Propaganda

I came to this article for infos, but this is just propaganda. This can be seen on TV. The regime was wrong, the people were poor, come on, you should deal with each country using the truth. The author put what he or she heard from TV. Damn, Wikipedia quality is going down. Shame, shame, shame. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.76.242 (talk) 09:54, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious additions

Should we maybe make a separate section for these items Spain Israel tent riots Israeli Borders Britain day of rage — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8digits (talk • contribs) 01:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Impact of the Arab Spring. And enough reliable sources have described the Israeli border protests as part of the Arab Spring that I think they merit inclusion. Please stop edit warring, even if you think you are right, and let's discuss this before deciding to remove anything. -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:31, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why not present these reputable sources

8digits (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:52, 27 August 2011 (UTC).[reply]

The page is already fully referenced. You can read the citations themselves. -Kudzu1 (talk) 13:27, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I really do not think it deserves to be on this page, it is so dubious whether it even should be there. There is some extra stuff that we should add such as the $1000 bounty given by the Syrians to anyone that went to this border protest. I will get on to it when I have some time. 8digits (talk) 01:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The protests weren't just on Israel's border with Syria, though...and you really don't have consensus to remove the events no matter how you feel. Please stop deleting and start discussing. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:49, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

caption to the pictures

The caption purports to be of a protest in Hama, but the picture has been clearly identified as a protest in Douma. Could somebody please fix this?74.131.99.14 (talk) 06:08, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Algeria

Is it accurate to say that there are ongoing protests in Algeria(Infobox)? Situation is pretty calm since January. --Tachfin (talk) 02:14, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources say protests there have been ongoing for months. Not sure what the current level of activity is, though; international media has been focused elsewhere. -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there have been protests there at the same time as Tunisia, but it died out after some reforms. There haven't been any protests in the recent months--Tachfin (talk) 02:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you can find a reliable source or two to that effect, I'll take it. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that everything here has to be verifiable, of course. -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:37, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well it will certainly be hard to find sources for the lack of something. News generally don't report on the absence of protests. --Tachfin (talk) 22:11, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Leave it, as the protests may pick up again shortly. --Smart (talk) 23:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I have a question. Algeria lifted their 19-year state of emergency. Is that not considered a governmental change? If it is, there should be a change to Algeria's color. If not, hey, I'm just wondering.--24.15.248.79 (talk) 02:07, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good question. There was a bombing that killed some people the other day, but I don't know if it has any relation with the Arab Spring, at least I don't think so.Ericl (talk) 16:43, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it's just "lifting the state of emergency" this was not accompanied by a governmental or constitutional change. The protests actually died out after the government intervened to lower the prices of certain basic commodities and these were the main demands of the initial demonstrators. Lifting the emergency can be viewed as only a precautionary measure to avoid possible escalation (like in Tunisia) Tachfin (talk) 17:30, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The End of the Arab Spring

So how is this going to end? For example, the "Nabka Day" protests are OVER and done with, the Post-Mubarak protests are becoming more and more infrequent, and pretty much everything has died down except for Syria and maybe Bahrain (there was a death the other day and this is going to stir up "trouble")(the Libyan war is ending, thus it's dying down). So when it the Arab Spring over? There might be riots and protests elsewhere, but they will be another phenomenon.Ericl (talk) 16:43, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's over when reliable sources say it's over. I'm guessing that won't be until the autocratic governments of Libya, Syria, and possibly Yemen collapse. -Kudzu1 (talk) 16:50, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think there is going to be a day that it ends but rather a fade out, aljazeera has already called the Arab Spring as "Disappearing" [7] Time and reliable sources will tell what happens. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:26, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Morocco

I did some corrections:

  1. Protests started on February 20th and absolutely not before, hence the pro-Protest movement calls itself "February 20th movement"
  2. Number of victims: Several un-reliable or self-published sources are used to support the claim of 7:
  • eagainst: mentions the death of 5, which it wrongly labels as "pro-democracy demonstrators", these were actually looters that died accidentally while inside a bank in the fire that they themselves started. They took advantage of the ensuing chaos after the protest and tried to rob the bank; similar looting scenes occurred in Tangier and Marrakesh. I don't think that can be labeled as "pro-democracy demonstrators" or even "demonstrators period".
  • Hespress: A mighty un-reliable source (self-published by a small group of ordinary people who are not even journalists), but seems more reasonable in this article, does not mention any death-toll; it only describes the looting and vandalism scenes that ensued after the protests and the resulting arrests.
  • [8] this also is only a blog; it comments on video that shows a beaten protestor (A teacher) saying that someone said "they killed him" as the man was laying down bleeding. Actually he did not die he was only injured.
  • [9]: Jpost is traditionaly considered rs but they just happen to be wrong on this: The man they speak about (Kamal Amari) died indeed but not as result of police brutality; He went to a hospital, several days after the protests, complaining from a head-ache his state eventually deteriorated and he died. [10][11] Don't think that this qualifies as a death resulting from police brutality during a demonstration, such a claim is only made by the February 20th movement itself and interestingly labels him as the first "martyr" of the demonstrations (i.e first one to die, and this was in June)

So the 5 dead on 20/02/2011 weren't really demonstrators and weren't killed by the police anyway. This is admitted by the protesting movement itself which wants to distance itself from the looters.

I'm leaving the death-toll at 1, even though I explained the guy died in obscure circumstances. I'd have to search for more sources to clarify the fact that his death wasn't the result of police brutality.

I removed the aforementioned un-reliable sources, left only Jpost. --Tachfin (talk) 16:49, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can we mark Libya as REVOLUTION now?

The people have taken over, lets mark it as revolution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.145.238.4 (talk) 15:46, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will support such a change when the UN and AU both accredit the NTC as the country's legal government; when Gaddafi is killed, captured, or goes into exile; or when anti-Gaddafi forces provably control the entire country, including Sirte, Sabha, Bani Walid, and Hun. Whichever happens first. -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The situation is more like a change of government by force, rather than a revolution, which would include large mass action by the general population. I would therefore caution against renaming the article based on our assumption on how reliable sources may describe the change of government in the future, but to wait until the descriptions in reliable sources (or a majority among them) converge towards "Revolution" or possibly another term.  Cs32en Talk to me  18:04, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please refer to Talk:2011 Libyan civil war#Rename to Libyan Revolution for the status of the move change, right now it appears as if there is no clear consensus for it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:10, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the OP is talking about the map? I could see changing Libya's color to deep blue, as media sources are referring to Qaddafi being overthrown, but I think Kudzu's criterion sum up why we should wait. I can't see him returning, but even at this state it's not impossible that Qaddafi will rally and prolong the civil war. --Quintucket (talk) 20:33, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
According to Al Jezeera:"Mahmoud Jabril, effectively the prime minister for the NTC, is now based in Tripoli." The government has been officially replaced by extrajudicial means. It's officially a revolutionEricl (talk) 19:59, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Won't be too long now. Be patient. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why the situation in Libya is not considered as a Revolution?...Why the article still mention the situation in Libya as a civil war? Thanks.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.28.65.138 (talk) 20:33, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can we make a separate category for an uprising coopted into a NATO military intervention? What's happened in Libya and might happen in Syria? 208.120.66.78 (talk) 22:51, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't jump the gun. I really doubt that NATO will intervene in Syria. And we ought to go by reliable sources, which from my observations go by the current status of the revolution.--85.99.254.211 (talk) 12:53, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

resources

64.27.194.74 (talk) 20:34, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably, this John Pollack. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 19:00, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Libyan Revolution

Hey, can somebody change the map of the Libya into Black? Why is the Libya situation in the 'Summary of Protests by Country' highlight was black but the map shows the dark red? Thanks 115.132.40.8 (talk) 11:58, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The status was changed back to red as there is no consensus right now to change the name to revolution see also: Talk:2011 Libyan civil war. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it makes no sense to change the name of the article to "Libyan Revolution," but this isn't the place to discuss it, and that's not what the poster suggested. He suggested changing the map's color. It meets Kudzu1's [[12]] for changing it (recognized by UN and AU, and controls the vast majority of the county, however I would suggest meeting two of K1's criterion, as until Bani Walid and Sirte are captured (or less likely, Qaddafi is before that), the country is still in a civil war.
Nonetheless, we need to change it eventually. The map should show results, not whatever name the media happens to give it, and the fact of the matter is that the government has been overthrown, as in Tunisia and Egypt. Again, I think we should wait until Bani Walid and Sirte are captured, or Qaddafi is, thus effectively bringing the civil war to an end.
But in the meantime, it might be better to change dark blue on the map key from "revolution" to "government overthrown," which is what some sources are already doing. --85.99.254.211 (talk) 12:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, its me again from the 115.132.40.8. Yes, what the user 85.99.254.211 says is correct. I didn't say I want to change the title into 2011 Libyan Revolution or Libyan Revolution, no. The title will remain as 2011 Libyan Civil War regardless of situation and it will always be. However, whether a peaceful civil uprising or violent civil war, Arab Spring has a common goal, which is a 'Revolution'. I'm not saying that we should follow the media, but almost everybody says about '...deposed Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi...' or 'ousted' or 'forced out' whatever it is. Even the Al Jazeera has change their title of 'Battle For Libya' into 'The Libyan Revolution' since Gaddafi ousted on August 23. But maybe he's right. Maybe we need to wait until the remaining Libyan places (Maybe at least just the big cities like Sirte and Bani Walid) was captured by the rebels. Only then not only we should change into black (Revolution), but also we should change the flag of Libya into the pre-Gaddafi's one on that Summary of Protests. But then as I said, the article of the civil war must, and will always be remain as 2011 Libyan Civil War. Now I don't really think we should change that into dark blue. This is already a civil war, so just remain it as Ongoing Civil War whether government overthrown or else until the revolution comes. Thanks 115.132.40.8 (talk) 07:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yemen

The President has announced he's going to remain in exile, the vice president has been authorized to negotiate a change of regime, and 63 people have been killed in the protests in less than two days....should we change the color to civil war?Ericl (talk) 13:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not yet. Why not the same as Syria? The rate of death toll in Syria is higher than Yemen per day, but it was never labelled as 'Civil War'. 115.132.40.8 (talk) 15:14, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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