Talk:Comparison of C Sharp and Java/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Proposal for Deletion

I believe this article should be removed.

First, I believe it is meaningless to try to compare the languages separately from the run-time libraries. Indeed, the article does not, and makes arbitrary choices about whether to include or exclude library features. Both languages are fundamentally useless without at least some library, and are designed to work with library support.

Second, the cited sources are either opinion, or relate only to one language or the other. As such, I believe this article is a synthesis of published material, and therefore contravenes the policy on original research.

Spockwithabeard (talk) 14:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

This article has become a kind of forums where C# advocates like to push their own Point of views, I think without even knowing they are doing this. For example, there was a lengthy discussion where people considered that java did not have events, because part of the events framework was provided by the BCL. But the same people have no problem to write that C# has Expression trees or Query language, where it is only a BCL feature. Hervegirod (talk) 14:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

BTW, I'm not sure about expression trees, but LINQ querying is definitely a language feature. Rp (talk) 17:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that there is original synthesis going on here. If we are to have an article on this subject, then the sources should limited to reliable publications that explicitly compare C# and Java. I don't think there are many of those - maybe the introductory sections of some books that then go on to describe one language or the other in detail. Of course, if those books are themselves published by Microsoft or Sun (Oracle), then they are hardly neutral. As it stands, this article is mostly a mess of "mine is bigger than yours" bragging by fans, and not much use to ordinary readers. I tried to join in the discussion about events, but just got shouted down, from what I remember. I haven't bothered since, and that's no way to run a WP article. --Nigelj (talk) 16:31, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

To make my point more clear, we need to start from "The developers of Java based it on the C++ programming language, but removed many of the language features that are rarely used or often used poorly."[1] (I can't remember where I first came across that on Sun's old website). What C# seems to have done (although Microsoft won't admit it) is start by directly copying the Java language and concept, then, release by release, adding back in various C++, VB and other random concepts, whether they are or could be used poorly or not. This article repeats, "C# has this; does Java have this? No? Fail." It does this without considering why the feature was left out of Java, what the pros and cons of providing developers with the feature are, or any other relevant issue. Take the first point in the comparison table: "Single-root (unified) type system? Java No; C# Yes". This could be worded, "Explicit language expression of when expensive boxing and unboxing routines have been invoked? Java Yes; C# No". This is what I meant above by '"mine is bigger than yours" bragging by fans', without the depth of coverage that would make the comparison useful to readers. For possible reader types, consider the project manager needing to decide which language to hire developers and develop a solution in, or the school-leaver deciding which language to study in depth to further their programming career. This article is too shallow and too detailed to help either of these. Who is it aimed at? Surely not just the egos of the Wikipedia authors who wrote it?! --Nigelj (talk) 17:21, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Keep. If the threshold for inclusion in the article is the ability to cite reliable publications that explicitly compare C# and Java, then indeed the entire comparison category (e.g. file systems etc) would have go to away. No, the threshold to meet is that any claims must be verifiable. The language specifications are reliable sources as far as the syntax and semantics goes. Other sources must be used for e.g. history, philosophy. I also do not agree that this is "bragging". Does the article have issues? sure. We should fix them instead of deleting the article. This article is not stale; it still receives edits and it is read by visitors. Clearly keep. But let's fix the problems. Who is it aimed at? As is evident from the discussions above, there is obviously a lot of readers with experience from one language but without understanding of what/how the other is different. As the two languages are overlapping and competing in the marketspace it is and will continue to be a controversial topic; but also an interesting topic. Useerup (talk) 14:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Strong Keep. The constant discussions, sometimes drifting into a flamewar, may be annoying. But this underlines how important the topic is to many people. This article is pretty much about the question why C# was made in the first place, even though it started off so close to Java. Vandroiy (talk) 20:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Strong Keep. I think this is a very useful and informative article that can teach people something about both languages and their differences. There have been many discussions about what form the article should have and what content should be included by it, and there are definitely areas that can be improved, but that doesn't mean we should give up and delete the article. 82.210.112.192 (talk) 19:52, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Strong Keep. I agree that the article doesn't use a clear method of comparison and that subjective statements are difficult to avoid, especially for contributors who only know one of the languages well. But I don't think this is inherent to the subject. Language features can be clearly separated from library features, and core library features can be distinguished from features in optional libraries. We just need to systematically qualify all statements about features with this information. For instance, statements such as "Java does not support events" or "Java supports events" are inadmissible, because they lack this qualification. Statements must also be qualified with language versions, if the feature in question is version-specific. For instance, "C# has special syntax to support events" is inadmissible. Won't doing this fix most of the problems? Rp (talk) 17:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Weak delete. The article has some value and I don't mind if it stays, but it's impossible to give a realistic comparison of these languages without the corresponding discussion of frameworks and runtimes. Maghnus (talk) 10:53, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Weak delete. However, I would not mind to keep this article, if only it really compared these two languages. As it is, it has become a feature-fest, not a comparison. I don't think that anybody can have an understanding of how these two languages are similar, and how they differ, by reading this. Only people already knowing Java of C# can really understand anything here. And I'm even not talking about the fact that there are so few references. Hervegirod (talk) 23:48, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Strong Keep.
I followed both Java and then C# evolution, and this is no accident if there are more "features" in C#. C# evolves faster, whereas Java evolves slowly.
The reason could be justifiable prudence or unjustifiable laziness, or could be the justifiable need to keep it simple or the unjustifiable incapacity to make the language evolve, I don't care.
So the extra features could be useful, or useless, I don't care.
Let the reader decide if delegates, events, unsigned integral types, user-defined value types, operator overloading, etc. are a good thing or not, but don't remove the feature comparison just because you believe the feature is useless in your chosen language.
If you have any doubt about the usefulness of a feature, this Talk page is not the right forum to discuss it: Bring to issue to a developer's forum, http://www.stackoverflow.com for example, and compare the answers from the experts lurking there. Paercebal (talk) 16:10, 23 April 2011 (UTC)