| This RFC is now closed and archived.
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Proposal
The Pending Changes trial ended many months ago, but around 1000 articles are still using PC protection. It is proposed to remove pending changes protection from all articles, for now, with no prejudice against reinstating it in the future, in some form, based upon consensus and discussion.
- This proposal does not affect potential future use of Pending Changes; it is only to end the trial. It does not affect the ability to apply pending changes for testing purposes, to a few non-article pages. e.g. Wikipedia:Pending changes/Testing, its sub-pages and user sub-pages that the user requests it for.
- Discussion of whether and how we want to use Pending Changes in the medium and long term are being overshadowed by a lack of consensus on what to do with Pending Changes in the short term. This RfC is an attempt to reach a consensus on that short-term issue.
Please indicate support or oppose with brief reasoning in the comments section. Comments longer than 1000 characters, responses to the comments of others and general discussion of the topic should go in the discussion section.
Neither support nor oppose
- Comment: The trial of PC was a success but the community has been very clear that the user experience was inadequate. A much better experience is needed and should be trialled before permanent adoption. The present version is simply not good enough. AJRG (talk) 11:51, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support proposal
- Note: the proposal is "to remove pending changes protection from all articles, for now, with no prejudice against reinstating it in the future, in some form, based upon consensus and discussion."
- Support. By removing the current articles from pending changes, we will be able to focus our discussions and move the process forward faster and with less conflict. Any new trial would likely be on different articles anyway. The default should be to return the articles to their protection status before the start of the trial. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- support while there are individuals who oppose PC for reasons of openness, many of the heated discussions I read centered around the fact that the trial period had ended, yet the trial continued. With this out of the way we can work on the other questions like how to improve it, reviewer responsibilities, and how to select articles for the next trial. Cliff (talk) 08:08, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I support the continuation of pending changes in the longer term. However, it is clear that many editors consider the refusal to end the trial on the date promised as a breach of trust, and that this is harming the longer term discussion. Therefore, as an interim measure I support removing PC from all articles. —WFC— 09:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - we agreed to a 2-month trial; it has stayed on for eight. A 'straw poll' supported (60%) temporary continuation with a drop-dead date of December 2010. Why on Earth is this still on, with no consensus? To move forwards - to have any meaningful discussion - we must first clear the air. The use of PC right now makes a mockery of the Wikipedian ethos of consensus. Chzz ► 09:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - As I've said in past arguments, simply to clear the air. The discussions are currently going nowhere because it's impossible to assume good faith when a past assurance continues not to be honored (i.e. begs the question: How can we trust you to honor the results of discussions if you're not honoring the results of a previous one?). From what I can see, it will be reinstated soon enough (assuming no major problems are found with it), with usage guidelines, scope, and implementation more reflective of actual consensus. Obsidi♠nSoul 10:19, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - purely and simply on Chzz's very good point, that a clean slate will help (eg only for BLPs while were already using it elsewhere). WormTT · (talk) 10:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Ending the PC trial will help clear the air and allow future debates to stay on topic, rather than all ending up as discussions about the trial. It will also help future features be trialled (the main reason the trial got in in the first place was due to users supporting with the understanding that it would be removed, and only because it would be removed, saying they wanted to try it out. If we don't keep the promise of turning features off after the trial, this factor will be lost for future trial proposals). In addition, there is no consensus, and no evidence that PC is good. User's claiming we should keep the trial on because PC is "good", are expressing their own opinion, not fact. Stopping the trial may mean people to actually analysis the results properly. - Kingpin13 (talk) 10:50, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Who the hell's been administering this trial, von Karma? If consensus had seriously been followed, this would have been done a long while ago. Time to reset to the status quo and assess the trial, then make a final decision after we're better informed. —Jeremy (v^_^v Hyper Combo K.O.!) 10:54, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support It is only logical that PC is removed from pages using it. I'm all for PC but let's remove it first since pages using PC are using it because of the trial (which has ended). After we have a clear consensus, policy and guideline on PC usage, then only implement it proper. Bejinhan talks 11:02, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Per UncleDouggie. Jsayre64 (talk) 12:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Now if only some clever people could, from a neutral standpoint, analyse the trial data and make some kind of sense of them to enable more informed debate. Contains Mild Peril (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support If a new consensus emerges that PC should be used on this project, then pages can be PC-protected under this new consensus. But the consensus that lead to the current protections does not cover any use after the trial has ended and should be respected. Ending this trial does not mean that PC cannot be reinstated in future with a real policy for its use after all (although I personally am against it). Regards SoWhy 12:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Correct the mistake made at the straw poll. Revcasy (talk) 13:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I do not understand why keeping PC on a relative handful of articles prevents discussion of future process. But it seems to. End the trial & move on. (Keep a tally of problem edits on the 1000 articles for future ref.) Wanderer57 (talk) 14:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Weakly support taking it off non-BLPs. For example, it is on 2010 Atlantic hurricane season. On the other hand, it is doing no harm, and I agree with Wanderer57: how does it prevent discussion? Reaper Eternal (talk) 14:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Weakly support Honestly why are we making a mountain out of a mole hill here. Its time to move on and if removing the protection is the only way so be it. Phatom87 (talk • contribs) 14:24, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support the software needs more work on. It is not intuitive. mabdul 14:57, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Start over time. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 15:19, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I originally was a strong supporter of PC, and have long wanted to see it become a success. But I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of clearing the air, and I also believe strongly that serious work still needs to be done on PC. The developers need to work on fixing problems that the community has raised, and they definitely can do so, so long as the infrastructure is left in place. And we, in the community, need to develop the now-missing policy for its use: what exactly should or should not be rejected?, and what are the responsibilities of the reviewers?, among other significant issues. These issues need to be addressed before there is any chance of a real consensus to use PC. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I think it makes sense to clear the air. People here have left many great comments about the situation I can agree with. Besides made agreements should be honoured. --Mikitei (talk) 16:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Long overdue and may help facilitate long-term consensus on the question of PC. Rivertorch (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Per Chzz and Tryptofish. It's collaboration we're asking for. A test period was granted (2 months), an extention with a hard deadline was authorized (December), and now we're 3 months beyond that deadline with pages (beyond what I understand the processes's scope (like Atheisim)) still entered onto the PC rolls. I agree the procedure is nice, but untill we get more of the usage, responsibilities, and policy documents/guidelines I must register my viewpoint as removing the PC protection (to whatever protection the article had before) but not the infrastructure. Hasteur (talk) 18:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support the poll that produced the original consensus to turn the feature on was for a trial with a specified end date. In the absence of any consensus to make the feature permanent or start another trial the feature should be removed from articles. Failing to do this has damaged the credibility of any future software trial proposals. I don't object to PC being left on for a handful of articles if there are exceptional circumstances. Hut 8.5 18:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Grudging support this side issue has hijacked the RFC on the future of pending changes. How it is deployed presently is just a distraction that has persisted through the whole affair. If this is what it will take to make forward progress then let's do it and get back to the real issues. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:02, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support The trial period has ended, so we should remove it for now and discuss. During those discussions, some changes might arise, and then an updated PC can then be applied. Angryapathy (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Yes please. -FASTILY (TALK) 20:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I disagree that this is just removal soley for the sake of making a point. This is making good on the original agreement that the trial would end, by the end of 2010 for the last agreement. Anything beyond that wasn't approved, it's that simple. In the absense of any community agreement to do anything else this is the default option and the one we must follow. The only way around that is to totally ignore the original agreement, which as Chzz mentioned above totally goes against the whole concept of consensus. --nn123645 (talk) 21:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We can't go on using it ad hoc indefinitely without a basic consensus for its use. Sandstein 22:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Let's start afresh, remove it from all articles, and then let's add it to articles as the result of a protection request. Use it in cases where it is genuinely more appropriate to have PC rather than SP. I started as a rabid supported of PC but now I see its only real use as a protection level for BLP's - all of them. PC does little to stop vandalism. Pol430 talk to me 22:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, it's time this trial were over, and we finally are able to use better reasoning in the discussions. Sumsum2010·T·C 23:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I sympathize with many of those who oppose because they don't see any reason to stop using PC where it is working, but I think PC has more potential than what we've done with it so far, and the continuation of the trial has caused enough friction to jam up discussion on how to make more of PC.--ragesoss (talk) 23:24, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support This is necessary to deal with negative feelings about being lied to. I must say I have trouble with those myself and feel a strong irrational urge to oppose to everything related to pending changes. Yoenit (talk) 23:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support -- While I do support the continued use of Pending Changes in the future, it is long time to stop this weird purgatory-esque state we are in and make a decision about the future of PC. Nolelover It's almost football season! 02:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support First things first. We are taking way too long to get to the real discussion, which should have happened at the end of the two month trial. Ntsimp (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2011 (UTC) (Moved comment from my accidental 2nd !vote--sorry) I've always broadly opposed Flagged Revisions, but the PC idea interested me because it could allow more IP edits. So I supported the proposed trial. There were those at the time who warned that PC supporters would cynically leave it turned on after the trial, but I assumed good faith. I've been proved wrong. Leaving PC turned on has done tremendous damage to the project's credibility and to our ability to settle controversial questions by consensus. The first step in solving the problem is to shut it down. Ntsimp (talk) 05:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support The trial ended months ago. While it was good to get a feel on how the feature works and how the community may adapt to it, there has been little community consensus to continue it or to implement the feature. We need more discussion of the matter, but in the meantime the feature should be turned off or drastically limited. At this point continuing it isn't going to lead to any revelations or change many opinions. Let's not make pending changes a fait accompli -- more discussion is needed and there needs to be a consensus to switch this on for anything more than the trial we agreed to. ThemFromSpace 03:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I find the PC protocol a useful supplement to protection but as the trial is overdue for completion and there should be plenty of data already, why keep it on so many articles? It should be used as an alternative to semi and a protocol needs to be established rather than the current blanket use. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 03:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. The trial was supposed to be for a set period of time. It should have ended as soon as that time period was over. --Yair rand (talk) 03:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, should have been handled sooner. Blurpeace 04:23, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Support Harm has already been done by promising to conduct a trial for a set period of time and then breaking that promise. I now have to treat any proposal for a limited-time-trial as a proposal for an indefinite trial. Stopping the trial now limits further harm. Guy Macon (talk) 04:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Discussion moved to Response to Guy Macon per instructions. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Just seriously take it away. This is causing way more discussion than does any BLPs; which we'll deal with promptly later. We need to adhere first and foremost to the promise given in the previous PC RFC. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 06:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Conclusions from the last round were PC is confusing, and I read that PC can create a backlog and stopping the trial should bring these issues to light. Are we keeping the trial because we can't stop because of a backlog? Clearly more stats are needed on which to base decisions. Let's properly stop the trial (as planned), and start a new trial asap. Jane (talk) 09:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support End the trial so a more clear and direct discussion can begin.--NortyNort (Holla) 09:57, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I'd like to see more trials, but that will be very difficult to organise while we have a hangover from the previous trial. I also find the arguments put forward in this section are more convincing than those put forward in the opposing section. Yaris678 (talk) 11:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Things that hang about like this are a nightmare, and frequently prevent the rollout of a full solution. Turn it off temporarily and we can focus on agreeing some rules for whether and where it might be used. Oh, and maybe the developers might be tempted to do something about the sucky interface, Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:31, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support for every reason I've said on this before. It doesn't work, and continuing the trial indefinitely is to eventually have a fait accompli of accepting a deeply (and maybe hopelessly) flawed system. Courcelles 11:54, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support keep the tools streamlined. I thought there might be a place for this alongside semiprotection, but I really think the latter is better on all counts, therefore it is redundant. My own solution (as it has been for the past couple of years) is liberal semi-protection for low-traffic and high-risk BLPs as well as those already targeted. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. — This tool should have simply been imposed upon us. Jimbo, or whoever the eff, should have simply stepped in and said eat this or die. It was utterly stupid to promise a trial. That promise should never have been made in the first place. But a promise it was. And sadly, it needs to be kept. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 12:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support on principle and for practical reasons. The only consensus was for a fixed-term trial, with a clear expectation that if no further consensus arose then we would revert to the status quo ante. We need to deliver on that promise, to retain credibility for future trials in other areas. More pragmatically, PC may well be adopted in a different form or with a scope which excludes some trial articles. It will probably be easier to start from scratch than to modify what is there. Certes (talk) 12:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - it was a trial for a set period. Dalliance (talk) 13:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - there was never (as far as I can see) any kind of consensus for the trial going on for more than two months, so the fact that it has done so is unsupported - and, most of all, the air needs to be cleared and the slate cleaned (and possibly disinfected, too!) before anything more can be done in the way of movng on. Pesky (talk) 13:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support While the analysis of the discussions referenced at the top of the page shows high votes for 'it could be useful on BLPs' it also shows a large number of people think 'it's confusing'. We need to stop using it to sort out the 'it's confusing' problem. Edgepedia (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support As I have argued for some time, a minority of outspoken editors have steamrolled this idea through an unconvincing trial period and into this state of indefinite continuation regardless of consensus. Hopefully this
poll discussion will set that straight Jebus989✰ 16:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support the pending change is confusing and removing the pending change from articles will remove the defunct feature. --Tyw7 (☎ Contact me! • Contributions) Changing the world one edit at a time! 17:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support the ending of the trial process. Note that this is not support for the abolition of PC now-and-evermore, but only support for the discontinuation of this particular trial implementation. My impression from my dealings with it has been that the trial version is too slow and unstable to handle the high-traffic articles for which it was intended—and that extending it to all BLPs, as some below seem to be proposing, would bring the system grinding to a halt—but this is anecdotal. Someone needs to analyse where this worked and where it didn't, and the current "neither active nor inactive" state of PC is just causing confusion. – iridescent 17:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Now you may say: why? It prevents vandalism, allows quality checking, but my reply is that it doesn't. The current implementation is uneven in its scope, and protects articles no bettr from vandalism as, say, a user using STiki does. If a single policy is made, choosing what level of FlaggedRevs to be used, where it is to be used, how it is to protect quality and impartiality in articles, then we will preserve Wikipedia's most sacred philosophies while protecting the reliability and quality of articles it is used on. The current trial implementation is an obstacle to that. Random articles seem to be protected with FlaggedRevs, and the current implementation of FlaggedRevs has not contributed at all to the quality of these articles, in my opinion. If we remove it, work on a proper implementation, and then implement it, Wikipedia will be a better place. --123Hedgehog456 : Create an account! 19:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Take PC off so that we can move forward with the discussion. If it's not taken off, then the discussion will go around in an endless circle. OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Better to turn off for now so that future discussions are not tainted by the trial issue. Kaldari (talk) 20:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support' Having this anomalous class of articles is not desirable. When we have a system that is will be clear to new editors and cpable of handling the editing intensity at Wikipedia, then we can consider one. DGG ( talk ) 21:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Emphatic support: Never should have been allowed to dribble on this way in the first place. Next time someone wants a PC "trial", they shouldn't implement it unless the trial automatically stops at the appointed time.—Kww(talk) 22:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Support A trial is a trial. At the end of a trial you stop the experiment and evaluate, not let it carry on without consensus to continue. Ronhjones (Talk) 00:05, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. The trial ended *how* long ago? SchuminWeb (Talk) 01:17, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. It was used for a trial period and that trial period is over. Way over.--Michig (talk) 08:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. This system is in place on the German Wikipedia and I have always severely disliked it, for several reasons. It takes over two months before a reviewer has approved the edit, which is just ridiculous. Though these times will be no doubt be less off the scale on the English Wikipedia, it simply takes the "flow" out of Wikipedia. This could come across as an editor's work not being considered "important" enough, chasing off any less "involved" user. It also feels distrustful to editors who, other than unregistered IPs, should be valued for their contributions and trusted to do the right thing without their every move having to be watched. Lastly, it causes unnecessary mandatory checking work, since bots and mods are doing a fine job as they are, and other editors just need to contribute wherever they can. With many WikiProjects, there aren't any editors available to assess articles, shouldn't our priority be on improving things like that? --Eddyspeeder (talk) 16:41, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support seems sensible. If "trial" comes to mean "turned on indefinitely", no-one else will get concensus to trial other new ideas in future.--Physics is all gnomes (talk) 17:03, 26 March 2011 (UTC) ETA - this doesn't imply I'm against PC: I'd probably support its introduction when a well-thought-out proposal is made.[reply]
- Support It doesn't even appear that there is anything that could be described as a trial going on any more. So time to remove it.©Geni 19:01, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Current protection with autoconfirmed editors is often good enough. Anyhow, since the trial is over, the articles should go back to their previous configuration. Xionbox₪ 19:33, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I may expand on this later, but I increasingly feel this debate has become about something much more important than pending changes. It's become about good faith. A sizable portion of the editor base clearly feels that without a clear consensus to continue the pending changes trial that the original commitment to end the pending changes trial after two months should have been upheld. A neutral evaluation of the results of the pending changes trial cannot take place in a charged environment such as this. Political gamesmanship has no place in an environment where aggrieved parties can simply pack up and leave whenever they wish. Wikipedia is already hurting in recruiting and retaining editors, and cannot afford to reach a point where change and compromise has become impossible because of distrust. We need to end the pending changes trial in order to restore our ability to assume good faith of one another and to make future experiments and innovations possible. –Grondemar 19:58, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. At a minimum, it needs a complete retooling. Mokele (talk) 00:55, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I do think that PC protection has proven to be useful tool in the fight of vandalism on the encyclopedia. Jessy T/C 04:05, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I found PC annoying, and I could swear it was implemented in a much larger proportion of the articles that the above number would have made me guess. Tijfo098 (talk) 10:34, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support As stated the PC trial is over so it only makes sense to remove it from articles. Peter.C • talk • contribs 14:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I view Pending Changes as completely counter to the original spirit of Wikipedia, so I'm not happy with it being around in any form. Nevertheless, ending the trial will mean that the next "phase" of restricting the ability of the masses to contribute to human knowledge will be implemented faster. I view the expansion of restrictions on freedom a sufficient price to pay for getting this out of the way and ending the endless, pointless meta-meta-debates. Captainktainer * Talk 15:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Trial has lasted far longer than promised. I am against pending changes in general anyway. I think pending changes is a presently unnecessary (the encyclopedia is still getting better!), it complicates Wikipedia (barrier to new editors), contradicts the spirit of the project (puts too much power in a few users hands), puts more potential legal burden on editors (I don't want to be responsible for other people's mistakes), and is just plain clunky and ugly as was implemented. My opinion is open to change. If it does become obvious that the encyclopedia is getting worse without some sort of edit review process I would be would be willing to give on my position. "Bad edits" exceeding, or getting close to, the number of "good edits" seems to be a logical choice for a major policy shifts. Unless than happens, full steam ahead! Jason Quinn (talk) 16:11, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Remove for now to clear the way for long-term discussion. It would be easier to discuss the future of PC if it wasn't up and running during the discussions. Krashlandon (talk) 18:20, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support While I support the use of pending changes long term, the trial was supposed to end after two months. We know what the positives are, and we know what the negatives are. There are still some technical challenges to be addressed. While this process continues, the "trial" needs to be brought to a conclusion. We then need to figure out whether or not we want PC as a whole, and if we do we thence need to figure out how to implement it. N419BH 01:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support It is time to end the trial and that is overdue. The Foundation has indicated that we are free to wrap it up. PC should go away for now but a new and improved version (with clearer standards regarding its implementation) is of course something we should at least consider in the future (even if the future means as soon as tomorrow, of course).Cptnono (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Close it down, as promised. At that point - and only at that point - I will consider supporting a proposal to actually use it. I expect to do so, if the performance is improved and the use of pending changes has an actual scope which seems reasonable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- According to Jimbo or someone from WMF (don't have the exact spot right now), improvements have been made to it. However, because no test has been agreed to for the new version, they cannot test it and we're at a stalemate. Why waste manpower removing it from pages (BLPs from the trial in particular) just to readd it for a new test? CycloneGU (talk) 06:23, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Because support for a new trial is impossible without first ending the old one. Also, many have proposed drastically different criteria for selecting articles in the future. Manpower isn't an issue. We can just have a script or bot run through them. The only true waste is the manpower spent trying to get people to honor agreements. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:36, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support The trial has ended, therefore all should be set the way it was before. —Mikemoral♪♫ 06:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support after moving from oppose. I still believe it is not necessary to remove PC in order to discuss policy on it. However in the interest of starting a new trial (which will never get support if this one isn't finally terminated) I begrudgingly accept that PC must be turned of temporarily. Polyamorph (talk) 07:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support It should have been removed as soon as the trial was over. rpeh •T•C•E• 08:33, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support What did we learn from the trial by the way? Grimsooth (talk) 10:33, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Lets get on with the next stages and clean up the last trial. (Lexandalf (talk) 14:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
- Support - I have no problem with pending changes as a process if its used but if we are not going to use it then we need to remove it from this list of articles. --Kumioko (talk) 14:57, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Just a trial, so I agree with Rpeh. Should have been removed as soon as trial was over.Libertarianrule (talk) 18:35, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - The trial has ended long ago. --M4gnum0n (talk) 21:12, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support PC is confusing to new editors. EngineerFromVegaDiscuss 04:14, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I am surprised that this has not already happened in the months since the non-end of the trial. SuperMarioMan 05:59, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Mulling it over, I actually like the way PC was implemented, and once guidelines are set for what articles should be there, I think it can work with semi-protection. That being said, the trial ended months ago, so until ground rules are set on all fronts and everything's in place, the trial has to be removed. Ask every corporation that's ever existed, when a trial runs out, the service is kaput. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 12:55, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Ending the trial by decapitating the beast will have two effects. First, it'll back the supporters into a corner where the rest of us will finally have the leverage to compel them to make real, final, and clear decisions on scope, implementation, purpose, and legal ramifications, and to write a half decent document explaining those decisions to the community. Second, it will force the PC supporters to come back to the community with the above document and the trial data in hand, put all their cards on the table, and make their best and final case. This will galvanize both sides, lead to a more reasonable and hopefully more efficinent debate, and finally put this mess to bed one way or the other. I think it's time for these things to happen. Sven Manguard Wha? 15:17, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - no more vagueness. — La Pianista ♫ ♪ 15:39, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I supported the trial (and support some form of flagged revisions... really anything workable, broadly interpreting workable), but I thought I understood that the trial would end... that is that the trial flagging would go away... unless the trial flagging was made permanent.Shajure (talk) 19:35, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I think the trial should be ended per previous discussion - PC can be reactivated if the community wants it to be, and I would support a seperate expanded trial in the future. I knew the trial was going on originally from reading WP:EN and never encountered it during my normal course of editing. I'm wondering how many other users never noticed it either. Psu256 (talk) 20:11, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - with no predjudice toward further, well-defined trials and ideally agreed upon analytical metrics --unsigned comment by Ost316
- Support – I was entrusted with reviewer rights in December 2010, and I'm convinced that Pending Changes will do Wikipedia some good. If there isn't anything else to test from the current version, then we should move on to the next step. If Pending Changes is going to continue, it should be official and supported by the community. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 21:41, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - it definitely HAS reduced vandalism and other un-wanted editing to high-target pages, so it should stay. Not to say that there should be a little bit more explanation to new users about it in the policy, but that can be rolled-out after full integration. A p3rson ‽ 23:32, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support – If it will more quickly get us to the point where we can turn it on officially, then let's turn it off for now. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 05:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support – Chzz makes a compelling case for ending the trial. I for one find myself much of the time opposing PC merely because consensus is being overriden without paying much attention to the actual issues. A calmer atmosphere for discussion is needed. SpinningSpark 08:51, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - In the spirit of fairness, if nothing else. Forcing the trial to continue indefinitely will probably do great harm to the social fabric of the project. As a supporter of the implementation of pending changes in some form, I am not optimistic that once removed we will ever see it again on this project. However, it is only fair that the trial is ended so the playing field can be levelled and a serious debate can be held on the future for flagged revisions. CT Cooper · talk 15:27, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support per UncleDouggie and Chzz. SpencerT♦C 16:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support so that discussion can advance. Also, this was supposed to a be a short trial. Aaron Schulz 19:15, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - should have been done a long time ago meshach (talk) 22:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Per Chzz. Alpha Quadrant talk 01:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support to touch base, draw a line. This is where the trial ends. Then we can start a new RfC to see on what conditions it can be used. It's a great tool, and a shame to waste it on process wonkery. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 13:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support While I support the eventual continuation of PC, and I lend this support with mixed feelings as a result, I don't think there's really any other direction that will lead to forward progress. So it goes. --joe deckertalk to me 00:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Because it would be a blow against consensus as our community decision-making process if we leave this tool running while there's no consensus for that. Also because we cannot properly use a tool when there's no consensus as to how it should be used. Cenarium (talk) 00:31, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I will also address some of the points made by users made in opposition. (1) The argument 'pure process wonkery, it's useful so keep it' is of equal weight as the argument 'pure process wonkery, it's not useful so remove it', and that weight is zero, because the community never had the chance to make a full determination on the usefulness of PC (in any case you failed to prove that) so this amounts to a classical 'I like it, and I should prevail' argument. (2) Regarding the contention that removing PC will harm articles, this won't occur simply because semi-protection can be used if needed. (3) The allegation that removing PC will preclude or indefinitely delay further discussion of it is not supported, in fact the opposite will happen as this will reduce the drama-level in the area (a well known enemy of consensus building), and we're already considering plans for further discussion. As the author of the original trial proposal, I'll make sure that we move forward in the debate. (4) I also reject the statement that the current situation is satisfiable. The current status quo, a tool for which there's no agreed upon policy for its use is not tenable in itself, the current usage instructions (if they can be called that) to admins (showed in the protection interface for articles) is that: a previous poll (approved by simple majority as required by Jimbo) concluded that PC would be temporarily kept on most articles where it's already, and also reads "Please don't do anything drastic. Please don't fight.". It's difficult to make more ambiguous. With a few exceptions, PC is not applied to new articles now, we're stuck, both ways. And there's been no sign of any progress, at this point we need to reconsider the whole thing with a specific proposal to be submitted to the community, and it's not going to happen with this status quo, we need to reset, then only we'll be able to make a decision. Cenarium (talk) 13:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd like in response to later comments to make the observation that the continuation of PC after the trial was made as a result of a poll decided by majority vote, as required by Jimbo. There has never been any kind of consensus for continuing PC after the trial. And now we have various users who say that there's no consensus for this proposal, arguing for using high standards for assessing consensus here. That's one of the most obnoxious of double standards I've ever witnessed on Wikipedia. WP:CONSENSUS is policy, and even much more than that, we should follow policy not only when it suits oneself, but all the time where it makes sense. Due to the intervention of Jimbo, consensus was not followed, but it should be followed now. Consensus weighs arguments, so please take under consideration the argument that I've just made. Cenarium (talk) 21:13, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Community perception, et all, also I don't see how it can continue in its present incarnation without eventually growing to encompass all of Wikipedia (although that might take a few years). I think we need to discuss exactly how this ranks above/below semi-protection, whether this should go on all BLP, how the chances of simple minority consensu and/or sock puppets affects "confirmed status" and what that might do to the chance of lawsuits. Worst, though, the interface is a little cludgy. From the list of pending edits, you can't just review the edit listed there, you first have to look at the history to see if there were any previous edits made by someone else or the same person (otherwise you will only be show the diff between the "present" and "most recent edit". I have seen it apparently make a difference, though, when I reverted obvious vandalism that had sat there for an hour or less. Banaticus (talk) 09:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. In my eyes PC is a decent new tool in the "Fighting vandalism" toolbelt, and i believe it will certainly help with the BLP headaches that sometimes occur. Even so, i do not support keeping the 1000 or so article's on PC for now. We initially agreed on a two month trial after which changes would be evaluated, which would then lead to an improvement round, before we have a final discussion on whether or not this would be enabled. Regardless whether it is eventually kept around or not, I believe we should honour the original agreement to stop the trial now the time is over (Without prejudice for future trials). I believe this is no more then fair towards the people who were against, but still agreed with a trial - besides, how many would support a trial if they knew it would simply go months overdue? Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 09:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, and I supported introducing PC in the first place. It clearly isn't going anywhere for the time being, and keeping it on only 1000 pages is just unhelpful to everybody; newbies who come across one of those articles will be puzzled why they operate on a completely different system. Pending changes should either be widely used, or not used at all, but using it on only a few pages is the worst of all options. We should turn it off (as this was supposed to be a trial, after all), take some time to consider the results and effects it had, and then come to a decision whether to reintroduce it on a larger scale. Robofish (talk) 17:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support trial over, let's go forward from there. Hobit (talk) 23:36, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I was comfortable with the trial. But if the trial is over then it's over. Refusing to wind down the trial because we need to have RFC after RFC would violate the entire spirit of the trial. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and trying to extend the trial through procedural objections would just be Wikilawyering of the worst kind. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Two months is two months is two months. T. Canens (talk) 04:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, as the lingering of Pending Changes on the few articles can cause resentment or a sense of unfairness, and ultimately removing it from the articles - but maintaining the possibility of PC - hopefully will clear the air and allow things to proceed more quickly, benefiting the community whether the ultimate decision is for or against PC. Even if it is decided it's best to implement PC on a large scale, removing it temporarily to decide more quickly will be beneficial. Layona1 (talk) 02:53, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support.it is confusing. Ianlopez12 (talk) 12 :08 , April 15, 2011 (UTC)
- Support. What is the point of having an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, if you have to wait for your edits to get "moderated"? --Mûĸĸâĸûĸâĸû (blah?) 06:50, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Because Pending changes is a hell of a lot better than indefinite semi-protection. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:52, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Start over without baggage. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 07:24, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support.Can prevent vandalism and unwanted unreliable articles. --User:PREVRAVANTH Prev Ravanth 10:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This is for supporting ending the trial, not the whole question of PC. —Jeremy v^_^v Components:V S M 20:15, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. IMHO "pending changes" is a bad idea, (complication downsides far outweigh the small benefits) keeping the trial going is a step in the wrong direction, ending it a step in the right direction. North8000 (talk) 10:19, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support per clear agreement to do so when the trial was started. TotientDragooned (talk) 20:15, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Support - Although I like the idea of the pending changes, in it's current form it's not wide reaching enough. Ending it for now and starting out fresh after some discussion would be a good idea Cls14 (talk) 09:51, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Until improved version is available and a trial remains a trial. --KrebMarkt (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- 'Support - PC protection has shown to be excellent alternative to semiprotection however I have seen many cases where admins place PC on a page thatshould be semi'd or not protected at all abd do think a break from PC is desperately needed mauchoeagle 18:44, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support We should not need a RfC to do this. The trial was scheduled to end at a certain time; it therefore should have been ended at that time, period. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 03:03, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, but shouldn't need to. I and everyone else who agreed to the trial proposal agreed to a limited-time trial. A trial means "We'll let everyone try it out to see how it works in real-world scenarios, and then we'll shut it off while we figure out if we want to use it permanently". It does not mean "We'll sneak it in by calling it a 'trial', and then ramrod through leaving it on after the trial the community approved has ended." That's totally unacceptable, and it's past time to shut this thing down. Maybe someday we'll want to turn it back on again. Maybe we won't. That's up to the normal consensus process to decide. But the trial, which was the only thing that did gain consensus, is long over. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:53, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - This whole thing is against wiki ethos, it makes vandal fighting the responsibility of a smaller group. If most non-established users want to do more damage than good, a project like Wikipedia wouldn't work. A better editing system to make it easier for new users to edit is what's needed, not the other way round. Even were that not the case it should be removed per comment (4) by Chzz.--IanOfNorwich (talk) 18:21, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - regardless of the good or harm of the feature, the trial has continued far longer than initially stated. thinking even longer-term than just this one feature, it is likely that when other possibly useful features are proposed in the future that editors that feel burned by this episode will simply reject it out of hand. just as a comment on PC itself, i have had no experience other than an occasional page visit that contained the PC notice, and it seemed a good idea to me as long as it was a very short-term tag. i have no opinion either way as to the final outcome, but i feel that it's obvious that the good-faith acceptance of this trial by those who now question or decided against the feature has done far more damage than any good that could come from continuing it prior to further discussion. (sorry forgot to sign Shelleybutterfly (talk) 16:48, 21 April 2011 (UTC))[reply]
- note - the user above has six edits - two of them to this page. Off2riorob (talk) 17:08, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- And? This is a community-wide proposal. How can you single out a new editor when you have an anon voting oppose on the same proposal? You have a fucked-up double-standard, O2RR. —Jeremy v^_^v Components:V S M 18:05, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. A trial is what was promised. Neglecting so prominent a promise by just keeping it going pretty severely damages the basis of trust we need to be able to work cooperatively, in my opinion. It'd be best at this point to end the trial, give the community the chance to draw conclusions from it, and discuss it calmly without all the drama that the neglected promise engenders. – OhioStandard (talk) 04:40, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. While I think pending changes is pretty inevitable, I understand why the methods used to implement it have made many people feel disenfranchised. With a change this fundamental it seems important not to push it through as a fait accompli and by breaking an agreement, but rather through good faith discussion that doesn't dismiss other people's concerns because they disagree with you about the results that would stem from not using pending changes for a little while. Also, can we please put together a set of guidelines for them before use? UsernameRedacted (talk) 13:19, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose proposal
Oppose move to support. I say keep the pending changes on the articles they're on. It appears to be doing no harm, indeed even helping on them. Now we've seen pending changes working, removing them seems like a step backwards. (NB, this isn't a strong objection - I just don't see the point in removing them) WormTT · (talk) 10:08, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose The suggestion is akin to having automatic starters removed from cars after they were proven to work. Ot to removing a new medicine from patients in a clinical trial when the medicine was proven effective for their illness. Pending changes has been proven to reduce vandalism and BLP violations. All it is is "removal for the sake of removal" which makes precious little sense at all. Collect (talk) 10:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - Pending protection is working fine on less than one thousand articles and there is no worthwhile reason to remove the tool from them. Off2riorob (talk) 11:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I would oppose in principle, because I think that PC is a useful tool; I'm baffled by the idea that we might have to stop using it in order to get a clear discussion on the best protection options for articles in future. (It reminds me of the government who sent us a letter recognising that my wife had a right to live with me, and therefore the government insisted that she had to be deported, so that she could fill in a form in another country requesting permission to be with me again). However, we've been mired in difficult debate for some time; if, for some bizarre reason, stopping using PC is genuinely the best way to move the debate forward to establish consensus on the best use (or non-use) of PC in future, then pragmatically I'd say we should switch off PC in the short term. I am skeptical that this scenario will come true, though - after switching off PC I think we would still be mired in similar debate. bobrayner (talk) 14:52, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose, per Bobrayner. This will make it harder to keep watch over sensitive articles. Stifle (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose, per Bobrayner. It's working fine, it's in the interest of a credible Wikipedia to keep it working on these 1,000 articles or more, something like 135 edits/min to 10-12 reverts/min is not healthy for a credible Wikipedia, to insist on switching it off on the short-term is absolutely not logical to me. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 16:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, it is a useful tool, it should remain on the articles it is currently protecting (unless consensus on those pages decide that the protection isn't needed or another form of protection would be better, but that's for the article editors to decide). If consensus decides that PC will be mothballed then it can be removed then. Polyamorph (talk) 16:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose This process bullying is exactly why WP is such a mess. Nothing can be done without process fetishism. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 20:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- If trying to enforce a consensus is "process bullying" or "process wonkery", I wonder what the hell edit wars and wikilawyering are! —Jeremy v^_^v Components:V S M 04:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The differences is between bureaucrats who are here for the sake of the rules and pragmatics who are here for the sake of the content. Every self regulated system eventually breaks down under the weight of the bureaucracy, and it is pobvious that wikipedia is going that way under the guise of "process needs to be followed". We have a functional tool about which most editors agree it helps at least in some areas, but it is torpedoed by the process-oriented bureaucrats because of process fetishism. I think it is disgusting. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:42, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. I am not aware of any real problems, and I believe the benefits outweigh any that might exist. Hans Adler 20:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS: I don't actually care much either way. However: (1) I have not seen a single valid argument for removing PC from articles now and then presumably restoring it after phase 231 of this RfC. The only thing approaching a valid argument was that those who insist on this are causing disruption, so we must cave in to them. (2) By removing the protection now I am afraid we increase the danger that this RfC will be delayed further and further by introducing more and more similar red herrings until the cows come home (or phase 231 of this RfC, whichever happens earlier). Because then the delayers have the status quo fully on their side. (3) This kind of immature behaviour should be shunned, not rewarded with success. Hans Adler 14:30, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. I love Pending Changes. As this thesis predicted as the number of Wikipages increases, reality is catching up with us: more tools are needed to manage the: "untenable trend towards progressive increase of the effort spent by the most active authors" to maintain quality. History2007 (talk) 22:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Discussion moved to Response to History2007 per instructions. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:20, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose as ever. Are you guys still talking about this? Just implement it Wikiwide and move on. History2007 (talk) 09:30, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - I like the pending changes. It provides us with a great alternative to protecting some pages, and I quite honestly don't understand why some people want to remove that. Ajraddatz (Talk) 22:12, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. Pending Changes undoubtedly reduces the vandalism load, allowing vandal fighters to make other contributions. We need to focus on improving Wikipedia's quality. Guoguo12--Talk-- 22:48, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - no reason whatsoever not to allow admins to use it. On lightly edited articles, it's a useful tool to ensure that vandalism doesn't get published until reviewed. --B (talk) 23:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose (Moved to observe) I wanted to support this notion as a comprise. Unfortunately, I see the context more as an indictment, and any compromise I bring in good faith would constitute surrender. I have already seen the calls for finding fault. I am sure at some level "I dropped the ball". And I know when a proposal says "The Pending Changes trial ended many months ago" followed by "it is only to end the trial". It is a position I can not support. My76Strat (talk) 23:31, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose Useful tools should not be laid aside solely for the sake of what Kim terms the "process fetishism" of a few users (and the hopes of a few more to kill the tool off entirely, leaving us with much greater use of semi-protection). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:12, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Also: The proposal here is to remove PC from all articles, so that editors can talk about its future. Fine, right? Except that this inherently means that the only people who can talk intelligently about PC are the small fraction of editors who have already looked into it. The new editor, or the average person who hasn't previously encountered it, will be unable to try it out during these future discussions. We'll be saying, "Oh, when it turns up in your watchlist, then you just click on this, and then it..." and they'll be saying "It doesn't turn up in my watchlist. I don't see anything to click on. What are you talking about? How come I'm not allowed to try it out, so I can figure out what we're talking about?" WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:13, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
-
- Sort of, but not really. For example, right now, if someone edits a page under PC (e.g., Gout), and that page is on my watchlist, then when I go to my watchlist, I get a note about it needing review. It's automatic, and it's real. That's simply not going to happen on the couple of test pages. These people will see zero real articles and zero real editing and end up with zero real experience about how it really works. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose Very useful tool, see no reason to remove it. Don't see how this would move forward a rational debate about its broader usage. --Elekhh (talk) 00:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose This proposal appears to advocate harming the encyclopedia for the sake of process wonkery. It is perfectly possible and reasonable to keep pending changes in use while discussing its use. Captain panda 00:57, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose Pending changes is useful that it prevents vandalism from building up, without having to use semi-protection, which punishes IP users for the actions of a few. It is also useful for articles that not many people have on their watchlist. Finally, I believe that every article should have pending changes. This way, Wikipedians can focus on content addition and copyediting, rather than having their edit counts boosted by reverting vandalism, warning vandals, placing vandals on the AIV, and requesting page protection. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 03:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose It's working and it's working well. I don't recall a consensus that it would be turned off after the trial period, just that there would be more discussion. Just because that discussion is belated still isn't a reason to shut it off. —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 03:19, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Discussion moved to Response to Elipongo per instructions. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - I am an opponent of Pending Changes on a broad scale and really don't like the whole "trial that was not really a trial" fiasco... However, I've recently had the occasion to be involved in an article that was the subject of protracted vandalism that was on the verge of a lawsuit and having the OPTION for Pending Changes protection was a real boon. If PC is only being used on 1,000 pages out of nearly 3.6 million articles, that's just about right. Leave well enough be... Just don't try spreading that crap indiscriminately across Wikipedia. Carrite (talk) 03:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose There is simply no justification for removing a tool that helps keep down defamation in BLPs while still allowing "open" editing. Want a new and improved version? Fine. Keep this one until it's ready--the alternative is widespread semi-, if not full protection of BLP articles (or non-BLP articles that attract BLP allegations). Jclemens (talk) 06:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose I have put pending changes protection on BLPs of various folks who were considering suing Wikipedia for allowing defamation. I strongly oppose any attempt to remove any part of our toolbox for preventing BLP issues. Jclemens-public (talk) 01:15, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose Pending Changes are a useful tool against BLP Vandalism. It is less harmful to our core goal of being an encyclopedia "anyone"** can edit then semi-protection. (Yes, I know blocked/banned users cannot)... Semi-protection removes the ability of IP Editors completely.. Pending Changes allows them to still edit, but having the edit reviewed before going "live" reduces the risk that google spiders and the like will echo vandalism further out. We should be aggressively ramping UP the use of Pending changes, rather than this. I compare this to an attempt to rob PC of its momentum, and then argue that we shouldn't restart it, because we already tried once, and then stopped. SirFozzie (talk) 06:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- See discussion below.
- Fozzie took the words right out of my mouth. Quite why anybody would want to rob us of a useful tool in the fight against vandalism that doesn't make anybody without an established account feel unwelcome is beyond me. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 07:22, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- See discussion below.
- Oppose It's working. Bobrayner brings up a good point also. Mkdwtalk 07:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
 Oppose Pending changes are better than any other way for protecting articles here. Wikipedia is supposed to be free encyclopedia which all people who come in good faith should be able to edit, not only for few elected sysops or confirmed people, protecting articles with regular protections (edit=autoconfirmed or sysop) is evil and removing opportunity for regular people to edit this encyclopedia would not make it better. Petrb (talk) 08:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Keeping the PC trial going will expose more people to PC, and give more chances to identify bugs/future enhancements. --JaGatalk 09:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]- Although I still maintain there's nothing wrong with allowing the trial to continue, other editors are using this issue to hold up the process. In the interest of moving forward, I withdraw my oppose. --JaGatalk 17:29, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - it's working perfectly well as it is right now and is serving to protect a number of significant BLPs. I'm not willing to accept the 'collateral damage' involved in removing it; there's too much already as it is - Alison ❤ 11:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. Why semi-protect 1000 editable pages? You must really hate new editors. If some of the articles don't need protection take them to RFPP. Otherwise get over it (the 'difficult to discuss' thing) and think about moving swiftly forwards, not backwards. -- zzuuzz (talk) 12:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Oppose. I have noticed that in some pending changes there is severe vandalism. This is working very well. Keeping this will also give some editors the opportunity to have there edits seen by others, and then possibly applied to the article while at the same time keeping vandalism rates way down. If we remove this tool and replace the pending changes with semi-protection, tens of thousands of new editors will not be able to have their facts added to an article. Crazymonkey1123 (Jacob) (Shout!) 16:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose While we wait for the improved version, I think PC protection should at least be added to all BLPs. Dugnad (talk) 17:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. I'm afraid I don't follow the logic that PC has to be turned off completely before we can move on to discussion of its future use. If there is a consensus to not use PC at all, we can turn it off. Personally, I would like to see its use expanded. -- Donald Albury 17:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose I don't see a clear practical reason here for why we need to remove it. I don't see this as an "either-or" situation. I see great potential for PC as an option for some situations, while still using semi-protect for others. E.g. perhaps use PC for current-events and lower-traffic pages. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 20:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose I really do not understand why we have to turn pending changes off in order to determine how to use pending changes. If we were deciding a new policy on acceptable usernames, we wouldn't insist on stopping anyone from registering. If we were rewriting the BLP policies, we wouldn't just systematically delete all BLP articles so that we have a "clean slate" to work from. This whole discussion is a way of avoiding the actual substantive discussion. Indeed, if we have pending changes turned on, the discussion of the policy can be informed by the fact that we can compare like-for-like pages that are under PC protection with those that are unprotected, semi-protected and fully protected. —Tom Morris (talk) 21:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. If the trial has not ended, it simply means "It is working !" *** in fact *** ( contact ) 04:08, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- What sort of logic is that? —Jeremy v^_^v Components:V S M 09:39, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose I can only use common sense to guide me. I haven't read enough about this to have more information. But my gut says there is no reason to stop a good thing that works for no reason. My gut also says if there was a good reason, it would be easily seen. I haven't seen it. Town,WP (talk) 23:26, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- People have discredited my opposition on my talk page. I don't know what else to say. I like pending changes. I want it to continue. and this is my opinion. If that's not good enough, erase my comments. Town,WP (talk) 22:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose Why remove it. I see no sufficient reason.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:06, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose I don't see any reason to remove it, regardless of when the trial ended. It's only benefiting the articles it is currently activated on. Tyrol5 [Talk] 17:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- oppose per Alison and Doc James --Guerillero | My Talk 19:55, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose – No, just no. PC is working well on articles that do not merit the need for semi-protection, such as low-traffic BLPs (high-traffic ones should be semi-protected). If it ain't broke, don't fix it. —mc10 (t/c) 20:06, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Moved to #Response to MC10 below. —Jeremy v^_^v Components:V S M 06:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Oppose - BLP articles that currently use it should be able to keep testing it. Others, perhaps it can be removed, but this tool helps curb BLP vandalism which could otherwise be libelous. Let's not reopen ourselves to that problem at least on those articles. However, I recognize there is currently a 2-1 consensus as of my vote in support of the above proposal. CycloneGU (talk) 16:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Addendum to above opinion: I have yet to see a single valid reason why this ought to be removed other than "the trial is ended". CycloneGU (talk) 19:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Discussion moved to #Response to CycloneGU below. Chzz ► 22:08, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose useful tool. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - Really? We need to 'clear the air' by removing pending changes from all articles in order to continue discussion of the future use of pending changes? Absurd. There's also no mention of what level of protection that current pages with PC protection would be changed to if it were removed. None? Semi-protection? This proposal is flawed. Mojoworker (talk) 05:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- When a trial is over, things should revert to the way they were before the trial started, whatever protection that may have been for each article. If you want something else, you're free to propose it here. You can also directly request any protection level for a given article using the normal method. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose I'd prefer to see us implement Flagged revisions on all articles as is working on DE wiki. But Pending changes on 950 articles is better than nothing, and if we remove it from those 950 I've no confidence that it will restart until the next major incident. ϢereSpielChequers 21:17, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - Clearly a good alternative to semi-protection and should be allowed to be applied on an case-by-case basis if there is consensus. Marcus Qwertyus 20:09, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - I think keeping them on the articles they are on is fine. I don't see any harm being done by leaving them where they are. Maybe in the future, we can come up with a new system to replace them in that case it can be removed. Tofutwitch11 (TALK) 00:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Oppose - Pending Changes protection is exactly what Wikipedia needs. The less vandalism that can be visible to the public; the better! Barts1a
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