Talk:Arab Spring/Archive 9

Archive 5

←

Archive 7

Archive 8

Archive 9

Archive 10

Archive 11

→

Archive 14

Syria & Yemen = New map status

There is already an open discussion about moving Syria from "Governmental Changes" to "Major Protests". Actually, the status of "Governmental Changes" is meant to be one step higher than "Major Protests", but the problem is that countries such as Syria and Yemen, with big events and hundreds deaths, are now mixed with lower activity level countries such as Jordan, Oman and Kuwait where the death toll is between 0-6 people in total.

I recommend that we create a new status / new color for Syria and Yemen to give them credibility without misguidance. The new status will be a step below "Revolution". In this way, we can clearly see the difference between the countries with status "Governmental Changes" in which hardly anything happens and countries where dozens die every day as Syria and Yemen.

Do you agree or are you against this suggestion? --Tonemgub2010 (talk) 17:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Uploaded by Kudzu1 (talk) 10:46, 26 April 2011 (UTC) - see comment below. Major update Kudzu1 (talk) 21:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC).

Why couldn't we just have Syria and Yemen striped a combination of orange and light blue, to signify both major protests and governmental changes? Jordan would be striped yellow and light blue.Whitesoxman (talk) 22:26, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree I think that's a good idea, that will also circumvent the question of which category ranks higher. Lampman (talk) 01:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed The stripes sounds good Dynex811 (talk) 04:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree I'm all for it. Map needs some revisions anyway. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree The stripes sounds like a good idea for me as well. Fair enough. --Tonemgub2010 (talk) 12:47, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Let's try it and see how it looks. I'm not sure how to do stripes, someone else will have to give it a go. ZeLonewolf (talk) 17:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I do not know how to do stripes either. Here is an old file that had stripes before, does it help? --Tonemgub2010 (talk contribs) 19:36, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree The stripes are a fantastic idea; but Syria is approaching uprising so if the consensus becomes that it is an uprising, it would be blue and red striped while Yemen remains orange and blue, I reckon. 18:32, 25 April 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.119.235.104 (talk)

Comment Here's a mockup as to what the new map would look like (without inset boxes). It's not perfect because it's a PNG image file, not SVG (I don't have the tools to manipulate SVG format). I guess if this looks good somebody with SVG know-how can go about making an SVG version, plus insets. -Kudzu1 (talk) 10:46, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree - Although I think Syria and Yemen need to be upgraded from major protests/governmental changes to a Libya/Pre-revolution colour - Am I right in saying the situation in Syria is characterised as an armed conflict and maybe Yemen too? George5210 (talk) 14:51, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The protests in Yemen have remained remarkably peaceful throughout, so no on Yemen. As for Syria, the article has been moved to 2011 Syrian uprising with consensus, and there have been some reports of fighting between loyalist troops and defectors, but I don't know that it meets the definition of an armed conflict yet. So far I'd consider it to be a civil uprising but not a bona fide conflict; Yemen might meet that definition as well, but WP:RS aren't as sure. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The fantastic idea of having the stripes did not look as good as it sounded. It is just more confusing now than what it was. I think we should keep the map as it is and we just need to "upgrade" Syria and Yemen to a "Pre-Revolution"-kind-of-status. Any thoughts? Tonemgub2010 (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that a "civil uprising" or "government changes but major protests continue" intermediate status perhaps should be tried. Let me give that a whirl. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Disagree On the new map Turkey should be added due to the ongoing uprisings taking place by Kurds in many cities especially Istanbul. Turkey is the new country facing ongoing rebells. Websites such as Tweeter, Youtube and Wikipedia are blocked by Turkish authorities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.228.183.50 (talk) 22:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

That's a separate discussion entirely. I'm not opposed to adding Turkey if WP:RS finds protests there are linked to this broader wave, and I'm certainly open to that. As to just updating the map and adding an intermediate status for Syria and Yemen, what is your opinion, if any? -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

@87.228.183.50. Do not write false information. Websites such as Twitter and Wikipedia are not blocked. Yes, Youtube is blocked (because of videos insulting Ataturk), but similar websites such as Dailymotion, Google Video, Metacafe etc. are not blocked. Randam (talk) 18:18, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Support - for Kudzu1's map, it's perfect. Let's wait(to add Turkey) when Turkey truly develops country-wide protests. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smart30 (talk • contribs) 04:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment Regarding Turkey, I'm tending toward support for including those protests in this article. Protests have been staged in Istanbul and Anatolia, from Kahramanmaraş to Hakkari, and they're growing increasingly contentious. I'm seeing a lot more comparisons to Egypt and Syria than I was just a few days ago. I do think it's about time we add Turkey to this article, as well as an addition to the "background" section mentioning that some of these protests (Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Iran, Armenia, Sudan, etc.) are essentially the reemergence of old grievances given additional impetus because protesting for your rights is kind of the thing to do these days in the Middle East (worked for Tunisia, Egypt, and Cyrenaica, after all). -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree I think it's a good idea to add Turkey. This article gives a broad overview, and should show as much as possible the different, related conflicts. Other articles can deal with the fine points of what is Arab, what constitutes western asia, etc. Beecher70 (talk) 15:54, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Support Turkey is increasingly becoming the new country facing ongoing protests and as it seems we are expecting a revolution. What I am a lot afraid of is that powerful and very equipped Turkish army will kill civilians and other protesters. Also due to the lack of Internet websites such as youtube, protesters will not be able to broadcast every single protest to give us a clear image of the magnitude of their struggle for their liberation! Please we must all support them and give them a hand of hope through Wikipedia. Solidarity towards the Kurds and other Ethnic groups protesting against Turkish goverment is necessary to establish a succesful and stable democracy in our region! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.228.183.50 (talk) 09:18, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment Supporting them isn't our job here; in fact it's the exact opposite. This is an encyclopedia, not a blog or advocacy website. However, it is our job to document these events and preserve them in an accessible, verifiable, user-friendly format for education and posterity. -Kudzu1 (talk) 09:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Someone constantly changes the map of Middle East countries where Turkey is included! Please add the map where Turkey is included as part of major middle East protests! This page was supposed to be protected but many make changes constantly without discussing them first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.228.183.50 (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

We're of the same opinion here, but a user is holding up consensus on keeping Turkey in the article and I'm not going to put it in unilaterally. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Syria

I believe that Syria deserves to have its own section, above "Other countries affected," since it has escalated to the point that it can be compared to the beginning of Libya's civil war. They did deploy tanks after all. All other countries in that section are still "Protests," but Syria has escalated to "Uprising." If no one objects, I would like to make that change. Unflavoured (talk) 01:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Support, now an event of very great importance.Rangoon11 (talk) 21:22, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Support, for the same reasons. --ERAGON (talk) 11:37, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Syria is showing great signs of revolutionary activity and therefore, as stated above, should have it's own section in "Other countries affected." 60'smusic (talk) 22:44, 27, April 2011 (EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.101.22 (talk)

Djibouti

What happened in Djibouti to change the color? There is no evidence of major protests listed anywhere in Wikipedia.Ericl (talk) 12:28, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree On review, the protests seem fairly minor, considering I'd call the 2011 Armenian protests just on the "major" side and tens of thousands of people calling for regime change have been involved. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree - should be minor. --Smart30 (talk) 03:50, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:09, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

yeman

i think u must move yemen from governmental change to civil uprising because the situation in yemen more close to syria then jordan and kuwait and oman. great article Lebanese journalist

I agree and that change is under discussion at Talk:2011 Yemeni protests. Thanks and hope you stick around. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Saleh recently agreed to step down. When he does ( if he does ), then it can be considered a revolution. But until then, I think it should be kept as major protests. Unflavoured (talk) 01:03, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

As I've posted on Talk:2011 Yemeni protests, a number of WP:RS are referring to the situation there as an uprising, and it does appear to resemble the situation in Syria in some ways. When Saleh steps down, if reliable sources call it a revolution, I would support the name also being changed then. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:09, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Note concerning related pages

I'm honored to be part of the editing community on this page. But I've noticed some of the other articles this page links to, including 2011 Yemeni protests, 2011 Syrian uprising, Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests, 2011 Armenian protests, 2011 Moroccan protests, and 2011 Azerbaijani protests, as well as the arguably related but unlinked 2011 Kurdish protests in Turkey, have been fairly neglected despite covering ongoing events. If you are able, I think the Wikipedia community would definitely benefit from our crop of good editors here keeping an eye out both for news updates (and adding that information, with citation, to the relevant page) and for unconstructive edits to those pages. Cheers. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Arab Spring

Reuters: [1]
Fox News: [2]
CBS: [3]
BBC: [4]
Wall Street Journal: [5]
CNN: [6]
New York Times: [7]
Aljazeera: [8]
Huffington Post: [9]
Guardian: [10]
The Nation: [11]
Time: [12]
Christian Science Monitor: [13]
They are all calling it the Arab Spring. In the article, it is made very clear: "several affected countries are not strictly part of the Arab world," so this is not an issue. Try Googling "Arab Spring" and "Middle East and North Africa protests," and exclude Wikipedia. I believe it is time for the article to be called what everyone else is calling it. Unflavoured (talk) 01:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I do agree that it's the term they're all using now. And because it's just a term, even though it uses Arab in it, it doesn't necessary exclude any specific countries, just so long as other news sources specifically attribute them to being a part of the Arab Spring. Silverseren^C 02:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. We have the redirect in, and it's clearly mentioned as an alternate title. I'm willing to have a conversation about moving much of the Arab-specific information here to a new article (and perhaps creating an equivalent for Kurdish protests as well) while keeping this as an umbrella page for the revolutionary wave (including non-Arab states like Djibouti, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Iran, and Armenia, as well as marginal cases like Western Sahara and Sudan) as a whole, but I think it would be irresponsible to change the name of this page to be Arab-specific while leaving non-Arab countries in, and I think it would be irresponsible to leave non-Arab countries out. -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:08, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

You are misunderstanding me. I speak only about the title of the page, not the content. This has nothing to do with "irresponsible," as we are not saying that we should take out any current countries. The name "Arab Spring" is what is being used by everyone now. The sole place that you can find "Middle East and North Africa protests" is in this article. All news outlets are calling it "the Arab Spring." Unflavoured (talk) 05:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

And, as I said, Arab Spring as a title doesn't mean that only Arab countries could be included, as many non-Arab countries have been considered a part of the Arab Spring by reliable sources. Silverseren^C 05:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree: We need to change it to a non-geographic name so that it doesn't cause problems and this name seems popular already. Non-Arab countries can still be apart of the protests and the name is fair because it all started with an Arab country anyway. TL565 (talk) 05:43, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I have misgivings about this, but I'm not going to block consensus and it does appear to be WP:COMMON. I do think we need to consider making changes to the map and table, as Iran, Djibouti, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Turkey (not presently included) are Middle East/North African countries that have experienced protests inspired by the Arab Spring and are considered to be part of the same outbreak of popular unrest - but they aren't Arab countries. I think perhaps the best solution would be to change those countries on the map to a different color (perhaps green) and fold them back into the impact article, giving that article much more prominence on the current page (trying to keep it from just being remainders, and I think a reminder on the map would be useful in that regard). I'd consent to that as long as a couple experienced editors are willing to commit to maintaining and improving the impact article. Adding a new template box for Arab Spring rather than just booting the non-Arab countries out of the current MENA protests template box (which could even be retitled as "Tunisia Effect protests" or something and split up by geographic region) would help with that, too. I dunno, just tossing some ideas around. It's a tough situation. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason to remove any of the current content that is not being challenged. This is about a name change for the article, not about removing Iran, Djibouti, etc etc. Unflavoured (talk) 06:06, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Enclave of Oman

There's a small enclave (Musandam) of Oman at the tip of the United Arab Emirates that's not colored blue on the map like the rest of the country. —Salmar ^(talk) 03:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I will fix that. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Turkey Major Protests!!! Happening at this moment!!!

All Wikipedia users please listen to the demand of Turkish people for demonstrations. Create and expand the section to add the latest anti-goverment demonstrations which have taken place in Turkish biggest cities Istanbul and Ankara. It is amazing of how many people have participated in these demonstrations condemning the current goverment and demanding a change in this dictatorial style goverment! The harsh and barbaric treatment of Turkish police forces with the arrest of Turkish journalists who wrote against the goverment actions has led to a massive chain reaction. Also many political analysts and journalists all over the globle are describing Turkish democracy as fake and only benefiting those close to the military or goverment organisations. Please expand the article on Turkish recent minor demonstrations which are continously becoming more and more serious.

Turkish protests in Turkey is clearly not related to Kurdish Protests in Turkey. Kavas (talk) 11:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It's important to bear in mind that there are going to be the usually pre-election rallies and demonstrations, as well as various other protests. None of the demonstrations from Turkey this year aside from the protests by the Kurds have really resembled what we've seen emanating from the shockwave of Sidi Bouzid, and only those Kurdish protests have been compared or related in any serious way by WP:RS to the Tunisia Effect or the so-called "Arab Spring". -Kudzu1 (talk) 13:37, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Armenia and Azerbaijan

Since it looks like its not going to be changed to either name, these countries should be removed or put into the Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests. I have never heard of Armenia and Azerbaijan being in the Middle East. Greater, yes but just Middle East, no. I have tried to propose a minor name change to expand the area and accommodate these countries, but I keep hearing the same excuses that look like WP:IDONTLIKEIT, such as "Its euro-centric", or "Not widely used", instead of real reasons. The more countries we add to the page, the harder it will be to put them under one geographic area, so expand the area or don't add them at all. TL565 (talk) 16:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree, Armenia and Azerbaijan do not belong, they should be in "Impact" article. They are not generally included in the MENA protests by WP:RS, and do not belong to geographic Middle East ("Greater Middle East" is a politic term, still sometimes used in Britain and US, but except confusing some people and media, doesn't do any real purpose for definitions).87.69.107.188 (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose The current argument above is to use the title of what most sources are using. Obviously, any title change would hence be long in coming because any new title in usage, even if every source changed to using it, would still have to out-pace all past usages of other names first. I say that we disregard the title in determining what is included in this article and include the protests that reliable sources say are connected and involved. Silverseren^C 17:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Well that's where the Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests article comes in. Some people are even saying that this is an Arab thing only and that non-Arab countries should not be included as well. TL565 (talk) 17:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose I agree with Silver seren, reliable sources need to be followed in terms of both the article title and article content. The protests are spreading and it is quite likely that reliable sources will in time give the protests a different name, perhaps a non-geographic one or even a global one. However that will happen slower than the protests can spread. Armenia and Azerbaijan are geographically close and reliable sources very closely associate the protests there with those in the region generally described as the 'Middle East and North Africa'. Rangoon11 (talk) 20:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok fine, lets add China or Wisconsin then, geographic area doesn't matter right? Who cares about the name? Lets just put in any protest anywhere in the world in the article because they "seem connected". You people are being less logical the more I talk about this. I give up. TL565 (talk) 20:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Except that the connections between the protests in China and Wisconsin have not been connected in reliable sources. China may have been somewhat, but hasn't really formed enough to be a real protest or part of what is happening here yet and Wisconsin, obviously, has little to nothing to do with this, as it is about an entirely different issue. But reliable sources, since the onset of protests in Armenia and Azerbaijan , have been specifically connected them with the other protests in this article's subject area. That's why they should be included here. Indirect protests are what belong in the Impact article, but the protests in these two countries are being described as directly related. Silverseren^C 21:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Wikipedia itself concedes that the ill-defined region known as the Middle East can include Armenia and Azerbaijan by some definitions. There's a clear factor of geographic proximity here, and from the very start of protests in both countries, the connection to events elsewhere in the Middle East was pointed out. What's more, if we're willing to include Djibouti and Mauritania as part of North Africa, it shows that we're willing to use the most inclusive definition of these terms to suit both WP:COMMON and the reality of the situation (which is that protests as part of the same wave are taking place in countries that might be considered peripheral/marginal/borderline but for the purposes of this article are part of the same geopolitical region). Armenia, Azerbaijan, Djibouti, and Mauritania certainly have far more claim to being Middle-Eastern or North African than the PRC or Wisconsin, and there are far more historical and political commonalities to be seen there. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:39, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Armenia is neither geography wise or politically in the Middle East, and thus putting Armenia here is very inappropriate. Armenia is part of the South Caucasus and is politically part of Europe. Georgian, Armenia, and Azerbaijan all fall in the same category. There is a sharp difference between the Caucasus and the Middle East, cultural, political, history, and obviously geography. This is common knowledge that educated people should know. MosMusy (talk) 16:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

However, the protests in Armenia have been very directly linked to the protests here, unlike most other protests in the Impact article. Because of this, it is likely better for us to utilize WP:IAR in order to include Armenia in this article regardless of the title, because it applies to the topic in general. Silverseren^C 22:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

So then why not make a little change in the name to accommodate them? Like the above poster said, they are a part of the Caucasus, not traditional Middle East. Yeah, some people "claim" they could be, but why not avoid the dispute altogether and change the name? I don't think there is an official name for these protests and Armenia and Azerbaijan still don't seem to be in the major focus. To me, it has to be either rename the article or remove these countries, but can't stay the way it is now. TL565 (talk) 22:53, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

It hasn't changed because there's no consensus to change it. I supported the change too. So we're using an expansive definition of Middle East because it's more irresponsible to exclude Armenia and Azerbaijan than it is to use a definition of the Middle East not preferred by the U.S. State Department. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I also supported the change. But we should be following what sources say are connected to this, regardless of what editors decide the title of the article is. We're meant to reflect the references. The reason why it is so difficult to change the name is because sources have yet to express a more expanded title themselves, which is fine, I suppose. But the sources have also directly linked Armenia and Azerbaijan to this, so it is our responsibility to include them. Silverseren^C 23:15, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree per MosMusy - There are also other protests very directly related that are not included here including China, the fact is that we can not include every country and these two countries are not part of the arab world and where this all started. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:43, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree This WP article is on the Middle East Protests(Arab Spring) that started in Tunusia after Bouazizi killed himself. I think we need reliable sources that clearly say Armenia and Azerbaijan protests are part of Middle East Protests. Kavas (talk) 15:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC))

Add Turkey to "other regional incidents"?

As we appear to be at loggerheads as to whether the 2011 Kurdish protests in Turkey are properly part of this wave of demonstrations - with some arguing that they are the continuance of a long series of protests that have recently flared up not because of the "Arab Spring", but because of approaching elections, and others arguing that commentators and organizers of protests have drawn explicit parallels and cited inspiration from the protests elsewhere in the Middle East (and in North Africa) - I think a compromise may be in order. This page makes no mention of these ongoing demonstrations in Turkey at all, which makes no sense, because the impact has clearly been felt there. So, my proposal is to include Turkey in the "other regional incidents" while using language that makes it clear that there are other things going on in Turkey, but the success of the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions and the protests among Kurds in Syria and Iraq have been cited as an influence on the turn protests have taken this year.

That would bring the Turkey protests roughly in line with the protests in Western Sahara, which we do mention on this page while making it explicit that the Sahrawis have caught a wave rather than actually starting fresh protests because unrest is in the neighborhood and the regime is unpopular (which seems to be the situation in all of the other countries currently on the map; a few of these countries were already unstable, but they weren't accustomed to anything like major protests just starting up spontaneously). -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)