Talk:Syllogism

There, cleaned it up a bit and wrote the stuff about majors and minors. Removed cleanup tag, but it still needs tender loving attention from a father-figure logician, the poor thing. I just don't know enough about the subject. saturnight 22:53, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

Note that Term logic and Talk:Term logic contain even more about syllogisms than this article does. Things need to be moved from there to here. I'd do it if I knew anything about syllogisms (which I don't at present). — mark ✎ 15:07, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

men (will) die

This piece is, pedantically speaking, wrong.

Men die. (general principle)

Socrates is a man. (specific statement)

Socrates will die. (application of major to minor)

The correct conclusion would be "Socrates dies." The problem is that semantics and syntax are funnily linked, such that for semactic equivalence "will" has to be included in the conclusion. Solutions I can think of:

men die -> men will die; probably wrong though
Socrates will die -> Socrates dies; probably equally wrong semantically as the previous option
die -> die some day
die -> have finite lifespan
men die -> Every human will die; Good and also makes the implied "every" which is needed for this to be valid reasoning, explicit.

Comments? --MarSch 12:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the next sentence in the article hints that the major used to be "All men are mortal", which is probably even better. I will reinstate this. --MarSch 12:41, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I added a bit about this, too, to explore the relationship of time in syllogisms :-) Ted 18:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Made some additions

I added a good bit to the syllogisms page. I thought it would be nice to have something more accessible than formal logic normally gets. Comments and revisions are (of course) welcome. Twrigley 18:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WHY is it called the Barbara Syllogism?

I just searched the net, and found not a single explanation of why it's called the Barbara Syllogism.

Anyone here know? That definitely should be included in the article.Kaz 16:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to Bertrand Russell, it is an acronym from Greek. That ought to help you in your search. The book was in my high school library, so now you have an even short search list, meaning that it couldn't have been a very esoteric title by Russell, but one of his popularizations. --Ancheta Wis 17:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's part of a medieval mnemonic. Each syllogism involves three propositions labelled "A", "E", "I" or "O", and so each syllogism is given a word that contains those three letters in order. Hence the syllogism deriving an All conclusion from two All premises needs a word with three As as its first three vowels: Barbara was chosen, but it could have been calamari. --- Charles Stewart^(talk) 18:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So that explains why celarent was another of those mnemonics. --Ancheta Wis 18:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In fact the whole mnemonic is given and explained at Term logic#Conversion and reduction. Should this page should be merged there? --- Charles Stewart^(talk) 19:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not certain about merging - I'm still trying to get a handle on the over-all structure of wikipedia, while Wittgenstein laughs at me from the back of my head (hierarchical knowledge structures; please!!!). for a pro-tem solution, though, I'll add your explanatory link. :-) Ted 18:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

well, I went and looked through the Term logic page, and there is a lot of overlap. certainly the sections on syllogisms parallel what is given here. it seems our choices (aside form leaving things exactly as they are - lol) are these:

bring the sections on syllogisms from term logic and integrate them here, leaving a link
create a single combined page under the heading term logic
create a single combined page under the heading syllogisms

personally, I think 'syllogism' is the more common term, but what do I know? at any rate, we'd need to link the unused term back to the new term; does anyone know how to do that? Ted 19:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Major Change

I've integrated the Term Logic and Syllogism pages, and redirected the former to the latter. I've still got itchy little stuff to do (formatting and highlighting, and checking related pages to restructure things) but I think this works. let me know if you disagree. Ted 04:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm uncomfortable with the change. There's more to term logic that the syllogism, even if syllogistic inference is the center of term logic. For example, there are two forms of inference in Aristotelian logic that are non syllogisms: axioms such as "A is A", and those that are recorded in the square of oppositions, such that the inference of contradiction from All As are B and Some As are not B.

Let's not hurry about reversing the change: I like the gathering together of all the scraps of content into one article. We should figure out what differences we mean between:

1. Term logic

2. Aristotelian logic, and

3. Syllogistic logic

--- Charles Stewart^(talk) 18:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ok. I'll confess it wasn't clear to me exactly what 'term logic' referred to. sometimes it seemed to be an alternate phrase for syllogisms, sometimes to be a broader term for aristotelian logic (but only to the parts that dealt with syllogisms, since it never seems to apply to propositional logic). perhaps I was a bit over-aggressive in my integration. :-) tentative breakdown, along your lines:

Aristotelian Logic: everything discussed in the Prior Analytics and On Interpretation (to distinguish it from Organon proper)
Term Logic: the system of logical deduction dealing with internal categorical structures that developed (over a millennium or two) from Aristotelian Logic.
Syllogisms: the particular symbolic form that Term Logic takes.

By this breakdown, section 1 would clearly go on a term logic page, sections 3 and 4 on a syllogism page. section 2 is less clear: parts go one way, parts go another, and some are just stuck in the middle, spinning. comments or ideas? Ted 22:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive subtext

JA: Could active editors put all but routine editorial comments and communications on the discussion page instead of enscouncing sotto voce asides in the article, as the latter are really hard to follow what's going on for interested bystanders watching the diff and hist displays. Gratia in futuro, Jon Awbrey 18:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

sure thing, sorry. Ted 22:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

oh dear

Oh no! I wrote the original article "Term Logic". I've just noticed the change that incorporates Term Logic into "Syllogism". This was not the right thing to do. Broadly:

• "Term logic" signifies the crucial feature of Aristotelian logic that analyses propositions into two terms, with the logical constants "all" "some" &c. Thus "All/some/no A's are / aren't B's". • "Aristotelian logic" signifies the logic developed by Aristotle in the books collectively known as the Organon. This happens to be a form of term logic. • "Syllogistic" refers to the form of inference that is connected with term logic. It is a much narrower concept, in fact is a part of term logic.

Thus Term logic = semantics of terms + theory of the proposition + syllogistic

Aristotelian logic = a version of term logic ( the only version as it happens, but the two should not be confused. An alien civilisation might develop a form of term logic, but it wouldn't properly be 'Aristotelian' logic).

I will have to change all this back in a way that is logical. Dbuckner 11:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

yes, this is acceptable. Charles made a similar comment some time back, and I see the point. the only difficulty I've had (which is why I haven't effected such a change myself - still pondering) is that there's a certain overlap in the content that's difficult to parse. as far as I can see it, the original distinction between propositional logic and syllogistic logic was Aristotle's: he split the analysis of the relationship between propositions from the analysis of the internal structure of a singular proposition. term logic developed as an elaboration and refinement of syllogistic logic, which (despite it's sophisitication) never seems to step beyond the bounds of Aristotle's original construct. in terms of structure, your equation holds; in terms of historical development, term logic is derivative of syllogisms; in pragmatic terms there are certain things (like mood and figure) that it would seem need to be discussed on both articles, thus creating a good bit of redundancy.

options:

rewrite and restructure to make the distinction clearer, but keep the content on one page

this may involve renaming the page Term Logic and redirecting syllogisms there

split the page into two, dividing content appropriately

how then to divide some of the mutually relevent content? Ted 14:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personal essay

I've reverted to an earlier version because this seems to have turned into a personal essay, which is not to say that nothing good had been added (some of it is worth keeping, for sure), but the tone is unencyclopedic in places e.g. "Note, however, that the decline was a protracted affair. It is simply not true that there was a brief "Frege Russell" period 1890-1910 in which the old logic vanished overnight." These phrases "Note, however ..." and "It is simply not true ..." are POV. We report what reputable publications have written and no more, and the material has to be sourced. See WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:RS. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Twrigley, I have no problem with some of the good material being restored, but it needs to be built up slowly and sourced properly. As it stands, it looks like someone's personal essay. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Slim, thanks, but please consider two things:

the other editors and I are about to restructure the page again, to separate term logic from syllogisms; this should eliminate your 'personal essay' concerns. (you should also know that the part you are marking as a personal essay wasn't my work, but that of another editor that I worked into this article at his request)
the current version is a substantial improvement over the earlier; I believe the other editors would agree that editing is preferred to reversion at this point.

I was expecting your visit, though it makes me sad. please feel free to edit without destroying the structure of the page. Ted 19:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Charles, Dbuckner: SlimVirgin is pissed at me because I gave her a hard time on a different page. this is payback, I suppose... I'm going to go report her for vandalism right now; please, if one of you would revert the page to it's established form? I see know reason why you or the page should suffer because of her bad temper.

Thanks Ted 19:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I saw some of your work here, for example, [1] which is why I'm concerned. We can't include edits such as "Formal logic is a complex game. And I do mean game ..."

As for this being "payback," please AGF. I'm not here because I'm "pissed" at you, but because I'm not convinced you're familiar with our content policies, and so I've looked at your edits. As I said, I have no trouble with some of the good material being added back, but you'll need to provide at least some sources, and they have to be published professional philosophers. You also need to keep your own personal comments and opinions out of the article. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite

Sorry if I've seemed to bull in and do a major rewrite without consultation, but as it stood the article was in dire need of help. The term "Barbara", for example, was introduced with no explanation or context, and I doubt whether an intelligent reader who was ignorant of the subject would have been any the wiser (actually, even someone who did know something of the subject would have been puzzled at points). The last section, on validity, is also a bit of a mess (confused, obscure, bitty), but I ran out of time. I'll be back soon, though if anyone else wants to pitch in... --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Mel. That's a huge improvement. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where did Baralipton go from the list? — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-6 22:46

Baralipton is an indirect mood (like Frisesomorum, Fapesmo, Dabitis, etc.); I'll add a section on those, but this was a first go, and meant to be simple and straightforward. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After double edit conflict:

Ah, I've just looked at the History, and found this version. It's better than what I replaced in many respects, though it too often reads like a (somewhat facetious) personal (and PoV) essay, and goes into rather too much detail for an encyclopædia article on some matters (History pf logic would be a good place for a lot of it). If this had been in place when I came along, I'd have still wanted to subject it to a good shave and haircut, though I'd have been less inclined to replace it wholesale. Perhaps some compromise can be found, adding material from the version in history to what's now in place?

As this is specifically and only about the syllogism, though, we need to be careful not to overdo the general history-of-logic stuff. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

hey, Mel, Slim. Suit yourselves. if you want this page, it's yours. might as well start renaming this place crapipedia... later. Ted 22:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, perhaps I was wrong about compromise, and thinking that we could all work together. Still, if other editors would care to join in? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mel, please, neither you nor Slim showed any interest in this page until after I got in a tiff with her. and I really don't want the to badger either of you about. it saddens me that the two of you would go out of your way to muck up a page just to try to punish me, so I'm hoping that if I stop participating for a while you guys will come to your senses. drop me a line if you care to discuss things, otherwise I'll check back in in a month or so.

Ted 23:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]