Talk:Climate variability and change/Archive 3
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 9 |
Copenhagen Climate Conference
How much significance do you place on the scientists' statement from the Copenhagen Climate Change Conference here and do you think a link to it should be added to the Climate Change article ? There's some editorial discussion on the Talk:Sustainability page about its relevance / importance, so I thought I'd ask the experts.--Travelplanner (talk) 09:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- Currently this information has been added in the History section of the Sustainability article concerning this recent development...
- Environmental scientists (Copenhagen climate change summit 2009 Climate change report) Copenhagen Climate Council, issue a strongly worded statement:
- "The climate system is already moving beyond the patterns of natural variability within which our society and economy have developed and thrived. These parameters include global mean surface temperature, sea-level rise, ocean and ice sheet dynamics, ocean acidification, and extreme climatic events. There is a significant risk that many of the trends will accelerate, leading to an increasing risk of abrupt or irreversible climatic shifts. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/mar/13/stern-attacks-politicians-climate-change -- http://climatecongress.ku.dk/newsroom/congress_key_messages/ End -- skip sievert (talk) 16:23, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- If it belongs anywhere, it would be nearer global warming than here. But I'm not sure anything new came out - it looks more like PR than science William M. Connolley (talk) 20:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- PR...? I assume you are not kidding? More than 2,500 climate experts from 80 countries at an emergency summit in Copenhagen said there is now "no excuse" for failing to act on global warming. A failure to agree strong carbon reduction targets at political negotiations this year could bring "abrupt or irreversible" shifts in climate that "will be very difficult for contemporary societies to cope with" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/mar/13/stern-attacks-politicians-climate-change -- skip sievert (talk) 21:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Solar Variations
Why is this condemned to an "other" factor when it is patently the most important? --81.99.118.248 (talk) 04:20, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Excellent point, since solar heating is the primary, almost exclusively in fact, source of heat input to the earth's climate. Volcanic heat sources are trivial by comparison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.141.93 (talk)
:Because while the overall input is large, the variations are small. Awickert (talk) 00:45, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Recent solar variations are small. Faint young Sun paradox. -Atmoz (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- I keep putting my foot in my mouth, huh. In any case, it doesn't seem like just an "other" factor in the article, though it probably should go to the top of that section.
- Actually, taking a closer look, maybe that section should be split up. It seems to have real forcings (solar, volcanic, tectonics, orbital) combined with things like glaciers, which seem more like effects, and hysteresis, which is more like an observation of how. Awickert (talk) 01:08, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've been bold and made some changes. Revert and discuss as needed. -Atmoz (talk) 01:30, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- I like the new order. I'm taking the night off, but I'll check it more carefully soon. Awickert (talk) 02:02, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've been bold and made some changes. Revert and discuss as needed. -Atmoz (talk) 01:30, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Recent solar variations are small. Faint young Sun paradox. -Atmoz (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Translation please
Perhaps I'm being dense, but I can't figure out what this sentence means:
- Climate change reflects abnormal variations to the expected climate within the Earth's atmosphere and subsequent effects on other parts of the Earth, such as in the ice caps over durations ranging from decades to millions of years.
The best I can tell it's trying to say that climate change happens on long timescales. Am I missing something? -Atmoz (talk) 07:05, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Torrent file about climate change
Here is a torrent file about climate change.
- CBC - The Nature of Things - Climate Change - An Uncertain Future ... -- Wavelength (talk) 04:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Here is another one.
- Apocalypse Cancelled - An Inconvenient Truth - Global Warming.pdf ... -- Wavelength (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Recent changes
I reinserted a section about pre-industrial climate change which was killed as collateral damage by Atmoz, who was sensibly hacking some duplicate global warming content. The re-insert is not available elsewhere, so I think it needs to go in. I've also created a very small feedback section to replace what's been hacked out. I think you need to at least mention feedbacks, and I kept it short. I reverted his revert of me, cos I think it was a bit gung ho. Andrewjlockley (talk) 21:05, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Undid - the order is talk, then decide, then act. Awickert (talk) 21:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- This article is about past climate change and changing climate in general, not the present climate change (aka global warming). Ruddiman and the early anthropocene stuff should be in anthropocene. -Atmoz (talk) 21:35, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think that climate change is a fair place for some stuff on this. it's global warming that needs a sep art. I think we need a section on anthropocene in this article, with a link to a 'main'. Andrewjlockley (talk) 23:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Added anthropocene to the see also section. "Historical impacts of climate change" at the end looks stubby; perhaps that could be tweaked once the dust settles, and turned into a short lead-in to a more full-blown article on climate and civilization, with a see-also to anthropocene. Awickert (talk) 00:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- That;s an effect of the Anthropocene (possibly). I really feel that the pre-industrial human climate change needs further consideration in this article. Andrewjlockley (talk) 08:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- OK - expand the bottom section and perhaps it will spin off someday. I'll start. Awickert (talk) 20:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Imho, the article Historical impacts of climate change, which AJL created should be expanded first, and then turned into a summary here. And the impacts shouldn't only be negative (ie. collapse of civ's) but include also the flourishing and decline of civs. Currently it reads as if climate change => catastrophy, which is a possibility but not a neccessity. Btw. Danish is certainly wrong, since the Vikings who settled Greenland came from Iceland. Norse
cwould be correct, but Vikings is more accurate. (i'm correcting) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 22:01, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Imho, the article Historical impacts of climate change, which AJL created should be expanded first, and then turned into a summary here. And the impacts shouldn't only be negative (ie. collapse of civ's) but include also the flourishing and decline of civs. Currently it reads as if climate change => catastrophy, which is a possibility but not a neccessity. Btw. Danish is certainly wrong, since the Vikings who settled Greenland came from Iceland. Norse
- OK - expand the bottom section and perhaps it will spin off someday. I'll start. Awickert (talk) 20:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- That;s an effect of the Anthropocene (possibly). I really feel that the pre-industrial human climate change needs further consideration in this article. Andrewjlockley (talk) 08:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Added anthropocene to the see also section. "Historical impacts of climate change" at the end looks stubby; perhaps that could be tweaked once the dust settles, and turned into a short lead-in to a more full-blown article on climate and civilization, with a see-also to anthropocene. Awickert (talk) 00:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think that climate change is a fair place for some stuff on this. it's global warming that needs a sep art. I think we need a section on anthropocene in this article, with a link to a 'main'. Andrewjlockley (talk) 23:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- This article is about past climate change and changing climate in general, not the present climate change (aka global warming). Ruddiman and the early anthropocene stuff should be in anthropocene. -Atmoz (talk) 21:35, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Adding {{main|Historical impact of climate change}} to the section is not acceptable. That article contains no content that isn't here. I hope that will change (hopefully with a more diverse description of historical impacts (see above)) - but currently the link is more an argument for a redirect from HioCC to this section, than anything else... --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:02, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks Kim - good to have a real-life Dane. I'll start looking at Historical impacts of climate change. In addition, there are a couple good articles I've seen about benefits. One is about a
period of sea-level falla slowdown in the rate of sea-level rise beginning c. 6 ka, correlated with delta progradation (therefore fertile farmland creation) at the same time as an expansion in old-world agriculture, and the other is about the origin and evolution of humans and the uplift of the East African Rift area. - Anyone else think we should cut the blurb here and paste it in the historical impacts article, and then return it in a more fully fleshed-out and representative way later? Awickert (talk) 01:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm being bold and doing the cut-paste. Awickert (talk) 01:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Human Effects on Global Warming
I have spent a couple of months reading about the technical details surrounding the factors that to contribute to global warming. To date this article addresses most of the ones I have identified. The two areas that do not appear anywhere are:
The amount of heat (BTU s) that humans release into the environment. There are several sources: 1) fossil fuel (petrolium, natural gas, coal, peet, etc)oxidation 2) nuclear power plant (binding energy of the nucleus) release of heat and vapor into the environment 3) Industrial chemical reactions that are exothermic
The amount of methane and water vapor (also greenhouse gases) the activities of humans and agriculture generate.
It would be nice to see these added to the "Human Effects" Section
- http://mustelid.blogspot.com/2005/05/global-warming-is-not-from-waste-heat.html. You meant to ask this at Talk:Global warming William M. Connolley (talk) 22:32, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
- Globally, true of course; but the other day I read this article[1] which suggests waste heat could be significant over fairly large areas such as Japan (2.1 W/m2) or western Europe (4.2 W/m2 in the Netherlands). Would be a neat thing to model. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 23:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
It looks like this article was created back in Feb., but has received very little attention since. I did a spot of cleaning, but I thought I might bring it to the attention of editors here, since it seems to be falling short of the usual standard for climate change articles. --TeaDrinker (talk) 16:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Error in Article Heading
The header states "For current global climate change, see Global warming." However, this is utter nonsense, the current trend is global cooling. Every respectable scientific report on temperature shows that the recent peak in global warming reached a maximum in 1998, and we are currently experiencing a cooling trend.
http://digitaldiatribes.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/rss240slope0901.jpg
How is this even tolerated in an "Encyclopedia" ?
--Muhammad Suleiman (talk) 05:50, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
- It's tolerated because you're wrong on all counts. Raul654 (talk) 16:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well... that graph actually shows that the 240 month trend is positive... must be that darned negative temperature. -Atmoz (talk) 16:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
- Negative slope correlated with temperature... guess you have to be as smart as James "the hack" Hansen to figure that out.
- How does it feel knowing that you are helping to destroy the economy?? meanwhile the earth will continue changing its climate just as it has done for 4.5 billion years, with or without less than 1/2 degree celsius changes "caused by humans".... thanks guys --Muhammad Suleiman (talk) 16:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- Please comment on the article, not contributors. Raul's link indicates why the graph you linked is suspect: first, starting in any year but 1998 creates a warming trend, and second ten years is not long enough to assess a climate trend. Hope this helps, --TeaDrinker (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- 1988 to 1998 was long enough to decree a warming trend, sooo why isn't 1998 to 2008 long enough to decree a cooling trend ?? If you don't have the science to predict global climate on a decadal time line (any decade warming or cooling or both) you don't have the answer to what is really driving climate change !!
- 76.70.211.184 (talk) 03:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC) Sun Spot
- Please comment on the article, not contributors. Raul's link indicates why the graph you linked is suspect: first, starting in any year but 1998 creates a warming trend, and second ten years is not long enough to assess a climate trend. Hope this helps, --TeaDrinker (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- How does it feel knowing that you are helping to destroy the economy?? meanwhile the earth will continue changing its climate just as it has done for 4.5 billion years, with or without less than 1/2 degree celsius changes "caused by humans".... thanks guys --Muhammad Suleiman (talk) 16:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
redirection from GLOBAL CHANGE
Searching for "Global Change" I was redirected to "Climate Change", which is not the same. Climate change is (acc. to University of Cologne, Dept. of Geophysics and Meteorology, http://www.uni-koeln.de/globaler-wandel/) only one of the main aspects of global change. The others are (acc. to dito) changes in land use and land coverage, loss of species and changes in the atmospheric composition. Global Change refers to the large-scale environmental changes resulting from human impact during the (ongoing) process of the agricultural and industrial revolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.76.178.218 (talk) 10:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- This often happens when nobody has written the appropriate article yet; would you like to? Awickert (talk) 18:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
- I changed the redirect to a stub as per my talk, and using a definition from PBS. Awickert (talk) 16:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Friendly Notice
Please retain this notice for at least 2 weeks to allow interested parties time to see it. I feel that editors who are interested in Global Warming or Climate Change related articles may also be interested in participating in the following RfC: RfC: How should this page be disambiguated? --GoRight (talk) 05:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
External link
{{editsemiprotected}}Climate Science Research at EcoWorld
- That link is really more appropriate for Global warming, why don't you try it over there?. ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 00:53, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Reference to Frank Luntz on term 'climate change' for political reasons needed
There really ought to be a reference to Frank Luntz since he invented the term to soften the Bush administrations public policy on Global Warming [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.205.71 (talk) 19:23, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Climate Change Vulnerability Index
Is the Climate Change Vulnerability Index at [3] worthy of inclusion? -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 19:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Solar stuff
The 11-year sunspot cycle produces only a small change in temperature near Earth's surface (on the order of a tenth of a degree) but has a greater influence in the atmosphere's upper layers.[12] This sounds dodgy to me. Its not in the abstract. Is it in the body? If true, it should be off in SV too William M. Connolley (talk) 21:38, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's in the body. I quote some stuff here -
want a copy of the article?It is probably better if I just send you a copy of the article. The relevant portions of the conclusions are: Throughout the low latitudes (30°S–30°N) the stratosphere (16–55 km) warms in response to the 11-yr solar cycle in the ERA-40 data (Fig. 2 ). A large region of highly statistically significant positive response is found over the equator between about 35–50 km, peaking at about 43 km with an amplitude of 1.75 K. This warming is present in all seasons and is therefore likely to be a direct radiative response to solar irradiance and UV absorption by ozone in this region during solar maxima.
[2 paragraphs down] A negative temperature response to the solar cycle is found at high latitudes of both hemispheres. ... The anomalous meridional temperature gradient gives rise to a strong solar-induced zonal wind response in the upper stratosphere/lower mesosphere of both hemispheres (Fig. 3 ). These midlatitude features are predominantly a wintertime phenomenon associated with the strength of the polar night jet (Fig. 4 ). They are therefore likely to be due to indirect (dynamical) effects. Analysis of monthly responses suggests that it is the timing of the stratospheric winter warmings that is influenced by increases in solar cycle activity (Gray et al. 2004).
- I will change "upper layers" to stratosphere for the moment. Awickert (talk) 17:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Climate Change News
I have been reading some useful climate change weekly news on http://www.climatechangebusiness.com/climate_change_news
Is the Climate Change News link worthy of inclusion?
Its a decent link on the subject.
Best
Mike —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zapytania (talk • contribs) 05:00, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Dead Link
There's a dead link under the 'See also' section. 'Cretaceous Thermal Maximum'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mass09 (talk • contribs) 09:23, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Removed, thanks. You should soon be able to edit semi-protected pages yourself. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Support for population control
Many climate change experts have recommended population control policies as an answer to the challenges of environmental fluctuations. This is somewhat controversial however, since population control often amounts to agressive anti-fertility programs like China's one-child policy. These matters should perhaps be mentioned somewhere in the article. I also noticed that the topic was very briefly discussed in the article entitled mitigation of global warming. [4][5][6] ADM (talk) 00:44, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- If population control is recommended by "many" scientists it should indeed be mentioned on this page. If it is only a small portion of climate change discourse, and I suspect that that is the case, it is correct to only mention it in the sibling article of Mitigation of global warming. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 01:38, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Allegations of Junk Science
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/24/hiding-evidence-of-global-cooling/ We all know how wikipedia loves the term "Allegations" (most notably, under any topic that is not pro-socialist). If it turns out that climate change is rooted in junk science, what a stain of embarrassment on Wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.97.239 (talk) 16:35, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Effects of CO2
Added information that was in this article section.
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) of the United States, determined that carbon dioxide, and five other greenhouse gases, "endanger public health and welfare" of the American people. These gases, they said, contribute to climate change, which is causing more heat waves, droughts and flooding, and is threatening food and water supplies. http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/0EF7DF675805295D8525759B00566924
- The EPA finding is based largely on the IPCC's findings. So, become a circular reasoning. EPA didn't do any independent research to corroborate his findings. This is an important difference from the past findings. "Lisa Jackson, Obama's EPA Administrator, admitted to me publicly that EPA based its action today in good measure on the findings of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC. She told me that EPA accepted those findings without any serious, independent analysis to see whether they were true."Inhofe: EPA 'endangerment' rule based on junk science; Is coal industry death coming soon?]Painlord2k (talk) 12:43, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The IPCC doesn't do independent research, its an assessment report. Just as the Climate Change Science Program (now the U.S. Global Change Research Program is. Both are based on reviewing the scientific literature. The field is too large for an agency such as the EPA to assess the whole, which is why the IPCC and the USGCRP have been asked to do so. Inhofe is not a reliable source on this issue. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:58, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Article in Timesonline
Does this have any bearing on this Wikipedia article: [www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6936328.ece] btw what is a "ece" extension - don't think I have ever seen one of those before? Ottawahitech (talk) 15:11, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- No. You've misunderstood it. But you'd get a better and longer "no" if you asked at global warming William M. Connolley (talk) 15:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Volcanism
The reference to the US Geological Survey report in the third paragraph has a misleading conclusion. The report cited uses as it's source another report that was a measure of "total carbon" not carbon dioxide emitted by volcanoes. By stating in this section that the amount measured was of carbon dioxide could lead a reader to an incorrect conclusion. Total carbon release and carbon dioxide release are two entirely different things. I'll be doing some additional research on this before proposing an edit. Hammer8s (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)halderman
- This is just a different way of accounting. One ton of carbon is equivalent to 44/12=3.6(6) tons of carbon dioxide. Also, you mixed up the reports. Marland et all (2006), which now seems to be at [7], is used as a source for human emissions. We often use simply "carbon", because the major carbon-containing emissions (CO, Methane, CO2) nearly all end up as CO2 in fairly short times. I'm very sure that the USGS is well aware of this and has taken it into account. Note that they claim 30 billion tons of CO2, while Marland et al lists about 8 billion tons of Carbon, depending on the year [8]. 8 billion tons of carbon times 3.66 comes out at the 30 billion tons of CO2. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 01:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Changes to introductory paragraphs
I cannot see how the recent changes to the introductory paragraphs improve things: The rewrite is less clear than it previously was, especially the first paragraph. Weather patterns ≠ climate. "Trend" implies future (& what was wrong with "changes"?). Why does this article need so many names for global warming? The last two paragraphs are redundant as the same ideas are better expressed later in the article. And despite being twice as long it has lost useful information, as links to Earth, temperature record and attribution of recent climate change are gone. I would just put it back how it was before the template:technical was added. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 20:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
- No-one's replied and a day later and I still the version in place a couple of days ago was much clearer and more appropriate so I've restored it. The alternate would be to edit what was there, but by the time the duplication was removed, the missing links put back and the sense made clear it would look much like what I've just put back. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 00:09, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Human influences
"Anthropogenic factors" are not human activities that change the environment, actually, as the first sentence of the "Human influences" section states. Anthropogenic factors are, perhaps over-simply put, "human factors." There are, of course, anthropogenic factors (human factors) that can change the environment, which I believe is the more precise point of the original statement. Somewhat of a semantic observation, but this is my first edit suggestion other than a few simple IP-anonymous typographic corrections, so I'm starting out tentatively.
This seems a good alternative to the first sentence of the Human influences section:
"Human or anthropogenic influences on climate change can include human activities, effects, processes or materials."
I would include an internal link to "anthropogenic" from which I was inspired to write this alternative. I believe double-brackets are used to engage internal links. The article is semi-protected due to the high risk of vandalism, or I would happily endeavor to figure out how to make the change myself. Perhaps since I have an account I can do this myself.
Thanks, Oxylotyl (talk) 21:17, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Edit request to Human influences section of Climate Change article
{{editsemiprotected}}
This article is semi-protected due to the high risk of vandalism, or I would happily endeavor to figure out how to make the change myself. Perhaps since I have an account I can do this myself after 10 or so edits.
I suggested the change on Dec 14, '09 on the Climate Page's talk page, but now understand that might not get attention. I hope this is useful:
"Anthropogenic factors" are not just human activities that change the environment, actually, as the first sentence of the "Human influences" section states. Anthropogenic factors are, perhaps over-simply put, "human factors" more generally. There are, of course, anthropogenic factors (human factors) that can change the environment, to which the term "anthropogenic" is most currently in reference to, and which I believe is the more precise point of the original statement. Somewhat of a semantic observation, but this is my first edit suggestion other than a few simple IP-anonymous typographic corrections, so I'm starting out tentatively.
This seems a good alternative to the first sentence of the Human influences section. Please change:
Anthropogenic factors are human activities that change the environment.
to:
Human or anthropogenic influences on climate change can include human activities, effects, processes or materials.
I included an internal link to "anthropogenic" from which I was inspired to write this alternative. I believe double-brackets are used to engage internal links.
Thanks, Oxylotyl (talk) 10:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Not done for now: The anthropogenic article you linked specifically says "The term anthropogenic [effect] designates an effect or object resulting from human activity." To me, this would logically mean anthropogenic factors are human activities causing an effect on something. When you become autoconfirmed, feel free to change it, but it's not critical at the moment. In the meantime, use this talk page or a related wikiproject's talk page to determine a consensus for the change. I'm glad to see you have an interest in editing wikipedia! Happy editing! Ks0stm (T•C•G) 13:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
- Saying "Human or anthropogenic" is not necessary. It is poor grammar and one of the words would be redundant. The whole sentence is not needed for the same reason. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 08:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
- how about combining the two thusly, into a more complete definition of "anthropogenic": Kevin Baastalk 14:46, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Anthropogenic factors of climate change are changes to the ecological environment that come directly or indirectly from humans. These include human activities, effects, processes and materials.
- Thanks Kevin, that is a more precise revision of the original first sentence. If in agreement, can you make the change? I believe I still have too few edits to make changes to a semi-protected page. And perhaps anthropogenic could link to the internal article of the same name, if appropriate. Thanks. Oxylotyl (talk) 10:10, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Article probation
Please note that, by a decision of the Wikipedia community, this article and others relating to climate change (broadly construed) has been placed under article probation. Editors making disruptive edits may be blocked temporarily from editing the encyclopedia, or subject to other administrative remedies, according to standards that may be higher than elsewhere on Wikipedia. Please see Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation for full information and to review the decision. -- ChrisO (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Grammar correction
{{editsemiprotected}} Just to change 'continue' to 'continues' in the Ice Cores section (singular subject - 'study').
Done Thanks! ~ Amory (u • t • c) 13:35, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Other evidence
A quick read of the present contents suggests to me that no mention is made of evidence of the type relating to changes in "start of seasons", as in spring seeming to start earlier, or birds migrating earlier or later. Melcombe (talk) 11:55, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm unfamiliar with this kind of evidence; could you give some examples? Awickert (talk) 20:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
- I was hoping there would be someone around familiar with these fields. A quick Google gives:
- For birds....
- http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6255181.html quoting Audubon Society
- http://www.life-of-science.net/environment-and-ecology/news/climate-change-has-severe-consequences-for-egg-laying-and-migration-in-birds.html with link to article in Climate Research
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691393/ links to Proc Roy Soc article
- Wiki blocks direct link to this ... wildlife-conservation.suite101.com/article.cfm/global_warming_and_its_impact_on_bird_migration
- For seasons....
- http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/effects/seasons.html summary and links to next
- http://www.rhs.org.uk/Gardening/Sustainable-gardening/Gardening-in-a-changing-climate
- http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2008/2007JG000407.shtml JGR paper on a sattelite-based vegegation index
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/aug/25/climatechange.climatechangeenvironment links to a science report
- There must be better sources than these ....? Melcombe (talk) 13:51, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- And a recent publication is describe at http://www.ceh.ac.uk/news/2010_news_item_04.html . Melcombe (talk) 17:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Hey - sorry I left you hanging here - I lost track of this discussion. What you probably want is an article closer to effects of global warming, unless you want to try to discuss longer-term variability in bird migration patterns. Thanks for all the links and I'm really sorry again for not responding! Awickert (talk) 23:17, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Add A Complete List Of Bad Things Attributed To Global Warming http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=529363 Posted 04/05/2010 05:05 PM ET (from nvestor's Business Daily: "Hardly a day goes by that the media don't blame something on global warming. Or so it seems. The British-based science watchdog, Number Watch, wondered just how many and went to the trouble of documenting them. It has kept on its Web site a near-comprehensive set of links to a long list of things attributed by either scientific research or the media to global warming. As you read it, some items will strike you as contradictory. Others, perhaps, as merely absurd. And still others as factually impossible. However they strike you, in perusing the list one thing will become clear: just how much the fear of global warming has come to taint both science and news reporting on the issue. Following is the list of phenomena (756 entries in all) linked at one time or another to warming. They range from acne, bubonic plague and a drop in circumcisions to Yellow fever, whale beachings, walrus stampedes, witchcraft executions and the threat of zebra mussels. Actual links to stories that make the claims listed below can be found at http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm. (Below the list are some claims that no longer have working Internet links.)
The list: ..."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.39.185.100 (talk) 22:43, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think a list which includes the death of the Loch Ness Monster is not taking itself seriously to be considered a reliable source. --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:14, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- Backdoor Energy Tax This from Investor's Business Daily, seems a bigger investors.com Editorial concern. 99.24.248.94 (talk) 03:39, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
- That may be a legitimate source... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
- Apart from being a bit silly, this is all on the wrong page. You want Global warming William M. Connolley (talk) 09:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
- Talk:Climate change denial is more precise than Human-activity created global Warming (the current climate change). 99.155.155.77 (talk) 21:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- Apart from being a bit silly, this is all on the wrong page. You want Global warming William M. Connolley (talk) 09:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
- That may be a legitimate source... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Glaciers paragraph problem - no citations, grossly incorrect information
The "Glaciers" paragraph has hardly any citations on any of the information it contains. Also, it says that, paraphrasing, "Organic matter left from glacial retreats can be accurately dated". Accurate is sometimes used as a broad term in the scope of the entire history of the Earth, but realistically the article should refrain from using words such as "accurate" or "precisely ascertained" as the dating methods used to find the age of such organic matter, soil, etc are hardly precise and have many, many limitations. Keep in mind, the dating methods used to find the ages are not provable by any means. The fact that nearly none of the dating methods used can properly date something where the age is definite, is a problem. Therefore, the science of dating organic or other matter is anything but accurate, and is closer to just being an educated guess.
I would make the edits myself, but as I am a new member and the article is under probation, I cannot make the edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EricW03 (talk • contribs) 04:23, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, and I noticed that no one has addressed this. How can I add more references? FullRoomingIn (talk) 04:41, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- Haven't been around recently, but have contributed to this article in the past. Removed "accurate" and "precisely": flowery terms that aren't needed here. The original poster is wrong about "proving" dating methods and about their accuracy and precision: Quaternary dating techniques are cross-correlated and tied into ground truth. This doesn't seem to be important for the article though, so just a note.
- You can add more references by making 10 edits anywhere here and then editing this page. Awickert (talk) 08:28, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Top 10 Places Already Affected by Climate Change
I prepared this information, but I can not find a suitable place in which to add it, either in this article or in any of the articles in Category:Climate change.
- The magazine Scientific American reported [9] on December 23, 2008, that the 10 places most affected by climate change were Darfur, the Gulf Coast, Italy, northern Europe, the Great Barrier Reef, island nations, Washington, D.C., the Northwest Passage, the Alps, and Uganda.
-- Wavelength (talk) 21:59, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Effects of global warming? Awickert (talk) 22:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I considered that, but I am not certain that the climate change is limited to global warming. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:19, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- When they say "climate change" in that context, they mean "global warming", but it sounds like you figured out what to do. Awickert (talk) 19:06, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Global Warming is But one effect of climate change. ~ Betaclamp (talk) 00:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Of interest: Alliance of Small Island States/Small Island Developing States for detail on "Island nations"? 99.37.85.58 (talk) 00:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- Changed to actual title: "Top 10 Places Already Affected by Climate Change: Catastrophic effects of global warming are being felt from the deserts of Darfur to the island nation of Kiribati". 99.54.137.73 (talk) 00:38, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Questions on new-ish section: "Gradual push, sudden shift"
I noticed this new section. It doesn't look like it belongs in causes; it seems to be an exposition about small causes having potential large effects, with sparse sources. I'm tempted to relegate it to a subsections of a "methods" section (while populating that section with info on longer-term changes, to balance it out), or even move it out of article space until we decide where it should best go. But I thought that asking opinions here would be a good first place to start. Awickert (talk) 07:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Needs substantial work, at the very least. I'll leave it until the arbcomm case is over I think William M. Connolley (talk) 10:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, that... I hope it wraps up soon. But back on topic: my major concern is that this may be an enthusiastic exposition of the author's personal work that probably needs a different home. Awickert (talk) 14:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes. That is exactly what it looks like William M. Connolley (talk) 15:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) Since this is going stale, and I think that it is an over-enthusiastic report of someone's personal publications that has a better home elsewhere, I have moved this section here. Awickert (talk) 07:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Gradual push, sudden shift
During a gradual push, things sometimes tip, slip, and break. Had the 1997 El Niňo lasted twice as long, the rain forests of the Amazon basin and Southeast Asia could have quickly added much additional carbon dioxide to the air from burning and rotting, with heat waves and extreme weather quickly felt around the world (The "Burn locally, crash globally" scenario[1]).
Most abrupt climate shifts, however, are likely due to sudden circulation shifts. The best-known examples are the several dozen shutdowns of the North Atlantic Ocean's Meridional Overturning Circulation during the last ice age, affecting climate worldwide.[1] But there have been a series of less dramatic abrupt climate shifts since 1976, along with some near misses.
The circulation shift in the western Pacific in the winter of 1976-1977[2] proved to have much wider impacts. Since 1950, El Niňos had been weak and short, but La Niňas were often big and long, This pattern reversed after 1977. Land temperatures had remained relatively trendless from 1950 to 1976, despite the CO2 rising from 310 to 332 ppm as fossil fuel emissions tripled. Then in 1977 there was a marked shift in observed global-mean surface temperature to a rising fever on land at about 2°C/century.
The expansion of the tropics from overheating is usually thought to be gradual, but the percentage of the land surface in the two most extreme classifications of drought suddenly doubled in 1982 and stayed there until 1997 when it jumped to triple (after six years, it stepped down to double). While their inception correlates with the particularly large El Niňos of 1982 and 1997, the global drought steps far outlast the 13-month durations of those El Niňos.
In addition to near-misses for Burn Locally, Crash Globally in 1998, 2005, and 2007, there have also been two occasions when the Atlantic's Meridional Overturning Circulation lost a crucial safety factor. The Greenland Sea flushing at 75 °N shut down in 1978, recovering over the next decade. While shutdowns overlapping in time have not been seen during the fifty years of observation, previous total shutdowns had severe worldwide climate consequences.[1]
Edit request from TWOGIC, 27 September 2010
Global Warming is an invented thing...... The politicians are using this to make a dollar at your expense and your children's expense. It is sad to have people say man it is getting warmer of course it's getting warmer we are coming out of an ice age that was caused by a asteroid strike the lead to an ice age which is now ending. It's not global warming it's global normalization of average temp and man can't change that for nothing.
And never you no mind as exo-solar events that are occurring infinitely around us education in this world is simply mindless.
TWOGIC (talk) 15:08, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- Vair exciting. But you want global warming William M. Connolley (talk) 15:21, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- Since this isn't requesting an edit, I've deactivated the template. Smartse (talk) 15:41, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Edit request from Frogmanatbac, 20 November 2010
{{edit semi-protected}}
Effects on Wildlife
Climate change may explain earlier occurring anuran breeding chouruses (Gibbs and Breisch, 2001; Green et al., 2001), changes in turtle sex ratios (Janzen, 1994), and local range shifts up mountain slopes (Seimon, 2007). Few amphibians or reptiles are likely to follow shifting climates because most do not have the migratory prowess of other organisms such as birds, mammals, and many fishes (Parmesan, 2006). This leaves these groups subject to the changing climates with little time available for adaptation (Rahel et al.,1996). Some species have already succumbed to shifting climates (Pounds and Crump, 1994; Pounds et al., 1999; Pounds, 2006).Alteration of precipitation patterns due to climate change may influence many aspects of the biology of an organism. It may partly explain the demise of the golden toad (Pounds et al., 1999) and may drive amphibian disease epidemics such as chytrids (Pounds et al., 2006). The warming climate may even reduce the intensity of sexual selection, especially by influencing call parameters (Gerhardt and Mudry, 1980; Sullivan, 1982; Cocroft and Ryan, 1995). It can reduce the overall abundance in anurans (Piha et al., 2007). Climate associated drought can drive population fluctuations by selecting against specific age classes of rainforest frogs (Stewart, 1995) and certainly would positively or negatively influence temperate species as well. In the case of the golden toad and the harlequin frog, the humid climate needed for survival migrated above the mountain leaving no acceptable habitat for these species (Pounds et al., 1994). Interactions between the increased drought and agriculture-induced landscape homogenization may lead to catastrophic species declines (Piha et al., 2007). Unfortunately, the complex relationships among climate variables and other stressors (Gunn et al., 2004) make it difficult to study their influence on amphibian life history and declines (Blaustein and Kiesecker, 2002; Davidson et al., 2002). In the case of Box Turtles (McCallum et al. 2009) and Blanchard's Cricket Frog (McCallum 2010) the impacts of predicted climate change patterns in Arkansas are significant. In the case of box turtles, the altered precipitation and temperature regimes would likely cause turtles to cease growth at body sizes too small to allow effective reproduction. Further, Blanchard's Cricket Frogs should experience reduced reproductive investment leading to smaller eggs. In both cases, population collapse would be the likely result.
Citations: McCallum, M.L. 2010. Future climate change spells catastrophe for Blanchard's Cricket Frog (Acris blanchardi). Acta Herpetologica 5(1):119-130.
McCallum, M.L., J.L. McCallum, and S.E. Trauth. 2009. Prediction of climate change impacts on growth and size at maturity of the Three-toed Box Turtle (Terrapene carolina triunguis). Amphibia-Reptilia 30:259-264
Schneider, S.H., T.L. Root, and M. Van Putten. Wildlife Responses to Climate Change: North American Case Studies. Island Press. 350 pp. Link: http://www.amazon.com/Wildlife-Responses-Climate-Change-American/dp/1559639253/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1290214546&sr=8-2
Frogmanatbac (talk) 01:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I think you might have mistaken what the article is about, your edit appears to be related to global warming rather than CC. Effects of global warming is likely a better place for your edit to be included. SmartSE (talk) 01:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- You'll need to write this in your own words as well, the text above is a copyright violation of this source. SmartSE (talk) 01:34, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Definition of Climate Change at Status Quo (2010)
Due to the controversy over the definition of climate change, Savillo, I. T. (through personal communication) insisted that IPCC's definition having fallen short of science will just be a "study of realistic preparedness as what are actually occurring in the environment with emphasis to environmental temperature." In this sense they (global scenario) can arouse all the euphoria that they want and raise all the monies for what ever they have seen or experienced as patterns of yearly destruction and how to repair and prevent it. Enough of erroneous science. True science will take its course later... after accurate experimentation have been done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.245.84.231 (talk) 15:00, 9 December 2010 (UTC) 173.245.84.231 (talk) 15:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Terminology
Clearly, any anthropogenic component of Climate Change is only an aspect of Climate Change and an extremely recent one at that. To adopt the name 'Climate Change' as the name for the human effects on climate is patently misleading and not remotely scientific procedure. Regardless of it's popularity, there begs to be an explanation for this blatant misuse of terminology, especially in light of it's use to replace far more accurate terminology.Multiperspective (talk) 02:08, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- Er...I'm not sure what you're on about. This article defines Climate change as "a long-term change in the statistical distribution of weather patterns over periods of time that range from decades to millions of years." Do you take issue with this definition? CurtisSwain (talk) 10:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
-The term Climate Change is most commonly used to refer to recent anthropogenic climate change, I would suggest that this is reflected in the wikipedia article. The current disambiguation is not very well written and does not give a particularly good description of the terms common usage and technical meaning. Also Climate Change is also far more commonly used than the term Global Warming. I understand that Global Warming is used more in the United States than elsewhere, but the article should reflect the terms use internationally. I would suggest both the Climate Change and Global Warming articles be changed appropriately. As I am sure the contributors to this article are aware, climate change is a politically (if not scientifically!) conentious issue, and it appears as if the definitions of climate change and global warming currently used in wikipedia have been influenced by contrarians in the debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.178.230 (talk) 12:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
- I assume the section below is yours. I believe you should centralize discussion at Talk:Global warming, since a discussion is already underway there, and it would be waste of editorial resources to discuss this issue in two place at once. Furthermore it seems that the discussion below has gone stale, and you would recieve greater attention if you concentrated on discussing the issue at global warming talk page. 174.52.224.148 (talk) 04:11, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- thanks, yes section below is mine, agree about not wasting editorial space and centralising. I am trying to continue the discussion at Talk:Global warming, would be interested to read your thoughts. 217.43.25.223 (talk) 12:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Request for clearer definitions of terminology and wikipedia page structure on climate change
Discussion centralized at Talk:Global warming |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Further to my comment on terminology above, this article in the guardian gives a far clearer explanation of the term 'climate change': http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/dec/21/what-is-climate-change "Any process that causes adjustments to a climate system – from a volcanic eruption to a cyclical change in solar activity – could be described as creating "climate change". Today, however, the phrase is most often used as shorthand for anthropogenic climate change – in other words, climate change caused by humans. The principal way in which humans are understood to be affecting the climate is through the release of heat-trapping greenhouse gases into the air. Climate change is used interchangeably with another phrase – "global warming" – reflecting the strong warming trend that scientists have observed over the past century or so. Strictly speaking, however, climate change is a more accurate phrase than global warming, not least because rising temperatures can cause a host of other climatic impacts, such as changes in rainfall patterns." I would suggest the wikipedia articles for 'climate change', 'global warming', etc. are in need of re-organising and re-writing in order to give the most accurate, impartial definitions of the terms according to common international usage. Please could people respond if the agree or disagree? (86.152.178.230 (talk) 15:45, 2 January 2011 (UTC)) |
- ^ a b c Calvin, William H. (2008). Global fever: How to treat climate change. Cite error: The named reference "Calvin2008" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
- ^ (Miller AJ, Cayan DR, Barnett TP, Oberhuber JM (1994) The 1976-77 climate shift of the Pacific Ocean. Oceanography 7: 21–26. http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~miller/papers/shift.html)