Talk:Cloud computing

The first paragraph...

...is stunningly opaque! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.87.65.232 (talk) 08:06, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

...and remains stunningly opaque!842U (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

You don't want to open that can of worms again, trust me, The first sentence has been fought over hard and is "opaque" for very good reasons, see [1] Mahjongg (talk) 22:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

+1 -- samj _in^out 12:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, this Cloud computing article is surprisingly vague at describing what it really is, I read it up and down several times and I was still as baffeled as when I started...

Until, I found this link: http://www.explainthatstuff.com/cloud-computing-introduction.html and it all fell into place, so perhaps something from that one should be used so other users will not view over this article as totally incomprehensible? 84.52.252.70 (talk) 16:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

You mean the paragraph:

Cloud computing means that instead of all the computer hardware and software you're using sitting on your desktop, or somewhere inside your company's network, it's provided for you as a service by another company and accessed over the Internet, usually in a completely seamless way. Exactly where the hardware and software is located and how it all works doesn't matter to you, the user—it's just somewhere up in the nebulous "cloud" that the Internet represents.

I agree this is "better readable", but its hardly encyclopedic. The current sentence tries to "save the goat and the cabbage" by not adhering to any specific version of the definition of what the cloud means, this makes it inherently "opaque".Mahjongg (talk) 14:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

And how about this little gem: "The importance of cloud computing cannot be emphasized enough." Hardly encylopedia-worthy. Delete? Zengakuren (talk) 19:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC) Sounds totally non NPOV to me... Should be removed. Mahjongg (talk) 14:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

"Stunningly opaque" is good. The explainthatstuff-URL (IMO) provided some of the same vagueness as this article presented. The semantics of cloud-computing and virtualization should provide a more (IMO) strict meaning structure. IOW: "Infrastructure : Internet: Virtualization..." :: "Service : WWW/W3 : Cloud-Computing..." using the old OSI 7 Layer Model (as example) the lower layers act upon literal (IP) route/path requirements, and the upper layers provide content structure (TCP) control between origin and destination. Another way to say this is Cloud computing has services (applications, content, recovery...) available, while virtualization has physical infrastructure (OpSys, server-hardware, connectivity...) as a prescribed or on-demand shared physical resource. Also, JMPO, I could always be wrong [oh21, Open-Comments]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.172.8.13 (talk) 14:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks like this article has seen a lot of content disputes, which is probably to be expected with a term that has been applied so broadly as to achieve "buzzword" status. In such cases, pinning down a precise meaning to everyone's satisfaction can be difficult, since meaning can vary with usage, both of which can be expected to change over time. For that reason, I think it might make sense to address the term's potential for imprecision early on in the article. For example, The "History" and "Criticisms of the term" sections could be merged into "Origins and usage of the term" and perhaps integrated into the overview. As for the opening paragraph, what about starting it by saying something like "Cloud computing is a conceptual framework..." rather than "Cloud computing is Internet based computing..."? -Eloil (talk) 16:48, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree the lead pretty much sucks. The term "resources" is way too vague for this lead. "Information" is incorrect - should be "data." (Information has a technical meaning which is not what we're talking about here.) Finally the passive voice, "are provided" avoids saying where the resources are being managed and accessed. Here's my proposal:

Cloud computing is Internet-based computing, whereby shared resources such as CPU time, data storage, software applications and data are accessed on Internet-based servers by computers and other devices on demand.

The process to get what we have now shouldn't matter. The result of that process, however difficult it was, is just bad. Our purpose is creating a good article not avoiding conflict. Jojalozzo 13:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

2 years ago we worked hard to improve it. It's not that bad. Remember how it was before?

Cloud computing is Internet- ("cloud-") based development and use of computer technology ("computing").[1] In concept, it is a paradigm shift whereby details are abstracted from the users who no longer need knowledge of, expertise in, or control over the technology infrastructure "in the cloud" that supports them.[2] It typically involves the provision of dynamically scalable and often virtualized resources as a service over the Internet.[3][4]

Yep. It sounds like something Alan Greenspan would say if he were a computer guy.

If you want it less opaque, everyone will dive in and fight over it. My suggestion is, if you must alter it, tweak it gently. A major rewrite is a can of worms waiting to open. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:53, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

If avoiding conflict means settling for bad writing, then that's a poor compromise. What we have may be better than what we started with but it still sucks pretty much. Jojalozzo 14:59, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Be my guest. I suggest hashing something out here on talk. We await your input. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it was my formatting but you appear to have skipped over my proposal above. I took your advice and just tweaked the language to remove the passive voice and clarify the actor - didn't try to address other problems at this time. Jojalozzo 22:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. You're right. I missed your proposal. I like it. I'm curious what others think. As for the passive removal, I can't imagine objections. So far, so good. Editing the lead is a bit like playing Jenga, but instead of collapse, everyone goes nuts and starts arguing. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

The introduction remains opaque. The first sentence is good, but devolves into the "like the electricity grid" statement that is perfectly meaningless. The remainder of introduction is not written to serve the reader, but rather some esoteric agenda. Either way, good work everyone, but the problem remains. 842U (talk) 19:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

The concept of cloud is a good imagination of work in this complex world with a simple and basic concept ie., share resources effectively..(Bobby..working on Cloud computing project in a major IT firm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.69.132 (talk) 16:25, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

main cloud computing image

This image is incredibly vague - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cloud_computing.svg . Does anyone have an image to represent cloud computing that has more information content? The current image is almost meaningless other than to say that websites are in something called "the cloud" and there is some undefined topology connecting them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.142.40.6 (talk) 16:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

As the author of the image I agree completely... unfortunately it's hard to get much more precise without running into consensus issues. -- samj _in^out 12:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

What if the diagram focused on key concepts (or something else) rather than companies considered influential in the field at the time of its creation? As it stands, the significance of the individual connecting lines is not especially clear to me as a "lay" reader. Do they reflect (transient?) associations between the companies or are some connecting lines just placed arbitrarily? -Eloil (talk) 14:28, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I've never understood the significance of the lines between Microsoft, Rackspace, Salesforce, Google etc. either. Letdorf (talk) 12:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC).

How about we remove all vendors, and just list some of the services that CC infrastructures have -whether they are made directly visible to clients or not. That is, "storage", "structured storage" (DBMS or an alternative), "computation", "messaging", "analysis", "authentication and billing". In a P2P back end (like skype) auth and billing is centralised, storage and messaging shared by the many clients. In AWS, everything is available on a PAYG basis and you rent VMs by the hour, while in Google App engine, your compute is in reaction to incoming HTTP(S) requests. This would stop the pressure to argue about which companies are in/not-in the picture, and focus more on what it can do, not who thinks they can do it. client side: PCs, phones, tablets, games consoles, to emphasise the broadness of connectivity. If we do the image in some open tool (Dia is installed on this box), then it will be easier to edit and enhance. The danger here is doing original research/imposing our own viewpoints on what's in or out. SteveLoughran (talk) 10:47, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. There is no encyclopedic value in listing vendors. Johnuniq (talk) 06:30, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Sebastian Garth (talk) 15:01, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Compare cloud and grid computing

I have removed the following text (added here):

See <ref>Ian Foster, Yong Zhao, Ioan Raicu, and Shiyong Lu, "Cloud Computing and Grid Computing 360-Degree Compared", IEEE Grid Computing Environments, pp.1-10, in conjunction with IEEE/ACM Supercomputing, Austin, Texas, 2008.</ref> for an excellent comparison between Cloud computing and Grid computing.

Articles should not direct readers to another site for information. If wanted, we should add some useful text, using the reference as a source. I don't have time to do that at the moment, so am leaving the text here in the hope that someone will read the ref and see if any information is due here. Johnuniq (talk) 03:16, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Merge This With Cloud Computing

This article is too general to stand alone. It misrepresents generic definitions of words as information. If we no nothing about cloud computing security, then we should not have an article about it. This article clearly demonstrates we know nothing about it. At least we should merge it. John (talk) 03:42, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

You wanna merge cloud computing with cloud computing? Either this is a simple error or something that is way too profound for me! —Tom Morris 16:29, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I came, I saw, I'm still confused

Just a simple user here. I came to the "Cloud computing" Wiki entry to learn a bit about it, and left with nothing. The intro mentions that the article includes "too many Buzzwords", and I have to agree.

How about adding one or two sentences at the top, in plain English, explaining how it was before Cloud, and what Cloud offers in way of improvement, and a simple, basic example?

In short: First, tell me what time it is, and then explain how the clock works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.14.0 (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Kudos to all who put in so much energy on this piece ....

... marshalling a broad concept like this into a single article is quite an accomplishment.

The extended reference section speaks to the level of care people have brought to this piece.

Some of the confusion it engenders stems from the the wikipedia-ana festooning the article. When readers have to scroll a complete page to get to any substance and then jump over multiple :WP-boxen to get to the bottom it's a sign there are structural problems.

IMHO the second paragraph should be moved up to lead. It's a much clearer introduction of the content. Once that's done, what needs to be done with the current first paragraph will be much clearer.

The paragraph discussing the origin of the term (cloud used to describe phone network) suffers from the same issue. The lead sentence should actually be last.

I don't have time to do this justice at the moment but plan to return.

It is an important piece and deserves proper crafting.

Netscr1be (talk) 13:22, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Lists of vendors

The lists of vendors in the lead are of marginal value and encourage links for commercial promotion rather than reader enlightenment. They will only get longer, less useful, and more promotional as time goes on. I propose we drop them now. Jojalozzo 20:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes please! Every day we get another look at me name added, with no encyclopedic value. Johnuniq (talk) 05:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

+1. We can link to various vendors product lines' wiki pages, once they have achieved notability, but otherwise it's just a place to put all enterprise and cloud-related startups in. SteveLoughran (talk) 15:13, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I propose we move them to a new article List of cloud computing vendors. It won't solve the promotional problem but will remove it from this article. Jojalozzo 16:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

No! Per WP:NOTDIR, Wikipedia does not provide a directory of company names for anything that regards itself as related to "cloud computing". If there were reliable secondary sources which show that there is general interest in the topic of such a list, the article could be considered. However, it is simply not Wikipedia's role to connect the public with vendors (or to promote vendors, which is what has happened on this article). Wikipedia provides categories for topics of sufficient importance: put a suitable category in the article for each relevant company. Johnuniq (talk) 22:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

OK. We need to be ruthless about the Cloud computing template (I revoke something there once a week, but am getting tired of it, Cloud Storage, etc. Every startup uses a wikipedia entry as their gateway to fame, and I can't be bothered to revert their work. Some else can do it. SteveLoughran (talk) 20:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Data center for clouds versus clients cpus regarding electrical efficiency

Hi there, very nice article so far, i´d just like to contribute or suggest that someone should take a look and write about the aspects regarding "energy efficiency" and many important advantadges to electrical efficiency that the cloud computing model could contribute to, imho; I really suppose that in a pool of 50 dedicated cloud servers, only 10 of them could be switched on at a given time according to an average load, wrong ? also, the potential for less processing on the client side VS more processing on the cloud side seems to me to be very promissing, given enough interconnection... Henrique at softlivre.com.br —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.107.135.92 (talk) 07:49, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

no, the big datacentres like to run them busy, power is only part of the cost of a datacentre, the others being capital costs of the computers and the hardware. If you can keep the machines doing useful work more of the time, then each CPU-hour costs less. What you try to do is have low priority work, lower cost CPU time, machines which can be killed with little or no warning, so that you can keep the spare machines busy, and if someone with more money comes along, those jobs get killed. See [2] and [3] . IF someone was to look at power, James Hamilton's work contains the papers and presentations to consider. That said, in an "enterprise" installation, you can take a number of under-used servers, stick each app up on a virtual machine, and then share some higher end CPUs, so you do save power, and if the VM manager can move running virtual machines around, it can even power down idle machines. SteveLoughran (talk) 20:09, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

ok SteveLoughran tks so much. Im gonna do my homework so that i can understand what i missed in here. I really appreciate your comments and references! keep it up ! cheers from brazil ! henrique at softlivre.com .br —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.107.139.82 (talk) 05:45, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Economic models for cloud computing

There seems to be a lot of content related to a Service Provider or Public Cloud delivery model (i.e. wording to the effect of "a customer who buys cloud doesn't need to purchase servers, etc."). I would suggest that these are simply economic models for cloud computing and irrelevant to cloud computing itself. Perhaps we should create or link to stubs for Private Cloud, Public Cloud, Hybrid/Connected Cloud? I propose that we remove any references to a specific economic model and keep the main article pure and perhaps branch off as necessary. M@ (talk) 05:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)