Talk:Albert Einstein/Archive index

Oct 2001 – Feb 2004

Brownian motion

Does anyone besides me think that Einsteins observation that the brownian motion of pollen in water, considered the first real proof of the molecular theory of matter, is worth mentioning? --BlackGriffen (Prior to October 9, 2001)

What exactly did he observe? Wasn't the Brownian motion known already? --AxelBoldt (Prior to October 9, 2001)

Yes. The first well-known publications about it were by a botanist called Brown in the early 19th century. But no-one had a clue why it happened. Einstein's theory of it, backed up by actual mathematics, completely solved the mystery. It also convinced many more conservative scientists that atoms and molecules exist, something they had previously been reluctant to accept, especially in Germany. (Others below have partially answered your question, but i thought not clearly enough.) -- Geronimo Jones (Prior to 15:51, February 25, 2002 (UTC))

IIRC, it was Einstiens observation that the pollen in a glass of water underwent brownian motion that was consider the proof. I'll post more about it after I double check. --BlackGriffen (Prior to October 9, 2001)

See Brownian motion! -- User:Miguel 20:33, August 18, 2003 (UTC)

It is critically important. It was one of the most-often cited papers of Einstein's in the early part of his career. --RjLesch (Prior to October 9, 2001)

He also got the Nobel Prize for it, didn't he? User:Miguel 20:33, August 18, 2003 (UTC)

He got his Nobel for the photoelectric effect. JDR

Yes, I just checked my source today, and it says that Einstein observed the chaotic motion of pollen in water, and surmised that this was do to the chaotic motion of molecules that caused it. After lab experiments verified his observation, even the staunches detractors of the existance of molecules and atoms admitted their existance. Before then, atoms/molecules were regarded as a useful construct with no concrete evidence behind them. Einstein provided that evidence. --BlackGriffen (Prior to 14:55 October 9, 2001 (UTC))

Sorry, it was not Einstein, but was Brown that observed it. Einstein explained it using kinetic theory. This made Brownian motion in retrospect into a justification for atomic theory. What is your source? -- User:Miguel 20:33, August 18, 2003 (UTC)

D'oh! I just read RjLesch's additions to the main page. My explanation was just a few hours late. --BlackGriffen (Prior to 14:55 October 9, 2001 (UTC))

Wish I could claim credit, but that wasn't mine. --RjLesch 14:55, October 9, 2001 (UTC)

References

A few quick refs:

http://www.matse.psu.edu/matsc81/GLOSSARYold/people14.html

http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/einsteinBM.html

http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~nd/surprise_95/journal/vol4/ykl/report.html

(Prior to October 9, 2001)

Quotations

Since we're adding Einstein's personal/political views, perhaps we should include this quote, "Marriage is nothing more than an attempt to make something lasting out of an incident." I don't know if those were his exact words, but it was very close to that. --BlackGriffen (Prior to October 9, 2001)

(also see The Bomb, infra) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kwantus (talk • contribs) 22:03, August 29, 2003 (UTC)

Relativity

THe first paragraph is bit dodgy. I think some Irish physicist was the first to propose Special Relativity before 1895. Possibly called Fitzgerald? Lorenz, Minkowski and others may also have been slightly before Einstein. As far as i know, Einstein was the first with a workable General Relativity, but that came later. (Prior to October 9, 2001)

Note that Einstein was involved in a priority dispute with Hilbert over the Lagrangian formulation of the theory of general relativity.

While the particular Lorenz transformations were of course known, Einstein came up with an axiomatic approach to derive them and also with several re-interpretations of fundamental concepts, such as time and size, energy=mass etc. I believe these parts of special relativity are exclusively his, and they are arguably more important than the transformation laws. --AxelBoldt (Prior to October 9, 2001)

Agreed. The Lorenz-FitzGerald contractions were really an attempt to rehabilitate the ether theory; Eistein's conceptual framework was fundamentally different, though it ended up using the same formulae. Lorenz and FitzGerald are nonetheless important figures, as was Minkowski (though the Minkowski spacetime relations were, I believe, published in 1908 as a response to Einstein). --RjLesch. (Prior to October 9, 2001)

My original text:

...the Michelson-Morley experiment, which had shown that light waves could not travel through a medium (other known waves travelled through media - such as water or air). The speed of light was thus fixed, and not relative to the movement of the observer

Heron's version:

...the Michelson-Morley experiment, which had shown that light waves did not require a medium to travel through (other known waves travelled through media - such as water or air). The speed of light was thus fixed, and not relative to the movement of the observer.

This is definitely an improvement in some respects (my prose was not beautiful :), but it's also potentially misleading, because it could be interpreted as saying "MM shows: where there is no medium, there is no light".

I've tried to improve on the original wording, while avoiding the misinterpretation, with "light waves could not be travelling through a medium".

--Pde 08:02 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)

We are getting closer. How about this: "The MM experiment discredited the theory that light was a disturbance of a hypothetical medium called the luminiferous ether, leading Einstein to conclude that light did not depend on any medium for its propagation and therefore that its speed was fixed." Heron 11:22, March 15, 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps hypothetical medium should be hypothetical, intangible medium. Or something. The point which would be nice to pass along here is that, if you have studied Newtonian physics, any attempt to understand the movement of light will begin by inserting a co-ordinate system to measure it with; this is really all the aether was.

On a related note, I don't think it's enough to say its speed was fixed. In Newtonian physics, speeds are fixed, relative to any yardstick. When you move relative to the yardstick, the speed you see is different (this is intuitive). In SR, the speed is the same regardless of how you are moving. Pde

I think my confusion was partly due to a dual meaning of the word medium: (1) stuff that is required for a signal to propagate, and (2) any transparent or translucent stuff that isn't a vacuum. MM proved that (1) didn't exist, but said nothing about (2). Physicists probably assume meaning (1) when they read this, but hair-splitters like me see both meanings. How am I doing? -- Heron 11:22, March 15, 2003 (UTC)

(1) and (2) are not totally seperate concepts. Your statement of (2) is perhaps incomplete, because what I would expect, if I were a 19th Century physicist, is a medium in the sense of (2) which is the vacuum, and the conductor (1) for electricity and magnetism. This is the "universal co-ordinate system" I mentioned above. -- Pde 01:11 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

the bomb

"His theoretical work suggested the possibility of creating an atomic bomb." I think even this is too strong. Einstein's only contribution to the atomic bomb was political. (Prior to October 9, 2001)

I agree.I also think there's a problem with, "More immediately, however, the equation set people to dreaming of explosive weaponry..." E=mc2 is neither necessary nor sufficient to show that a nuclear chain reaction is possible. E=mc2 says that /every/ form of energy is equivalent to mass. This is just as true for chemical reactions as for nuclear reactions. --bcrowell —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bcrowell (talk • contribs) 23:12, December 14, 2002 (UTC)

All that E=mc² contributes to the Bomb is that if you can shave out a little binding energy, Avogadro's number×c² will give you a big return. Furthermore, it's been (re)discovered that (like Lorenz-Fitzgerald contraction) priority for E=mc² is someone else's, Olinto De Pretto published it a year or two before AE. [1] copying [2]

There's a quote attributed to AE, which IMO must be included if it can be verified: ‘The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.’ [3] Kwantus 21:47, August 29, 2003 (UTC)

the unified field teory

"He spent his last 20 years in an increasingly isolated and ultimately unsuccessful attempt at constructing a theory that would unify General Relativity and quantum mechanics." Is this correct? I thought he was trying to construct a non-quantum-mechanical theory that would unify all the forces. --bcrowell {{unsigned2|23:12, December 14, 2002|Bcrowell}

Given his distaste for QM, I tend to agree, but I don't know the details. AxelBoldt 00:04 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)

copyright

Isn't the photo copyrighted? As far as I've been able to find out, all the post-1922 photos of Einstein are owned by various organizations. I have a circa-1905 public-domain photo here, [4], which could replace it. --bcrowell {{unsigned2|23:12, December 14, 2002|Bcrowell}

Yes, I think it would be better to go with the earlier photo. AxelBoldt 00:04 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)

politics

I made two corrections to the article. 1) It said Einstein denounced his German citizineship at age of 17. This is incorrect information. He was the director of Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics in Berlin for almost 20 years from 1914 to 1933. 2) The article said "he signed a letter" to FDR regarding development of an atomic bomb programme. Einstein actually wrote that letter himself. It is also noteworthy that he wrote that letter to Roosevel before World War II started.    --Keyvan 03:25 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

On point 2 (signing the letter). It appears that Einstein did dictate a letter, but it wasn't sent, and he instead signed two drafts written by Szilard (which IIRC were prepared before the first visit). There is some evidence here: http://www.google.com/search?q=signed+szilard+einstein+visit+teller ; if you don't have any to the contrary, the text should be changed back. -- Pde 00:34 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

Einstein saying, "I really only acted as a mail box. They brought me a finished letter and I simply signed it" seems pretty convincing to me. I'll change it back. -- Someone else 00:49 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

I thought it was "common knowledge" among those who care about such matters that the letter was the instigation of Szilard, who didn't send it himself because the first thing anyone'd ask is "Who the firetruck is Leo Lizard?"; so he got his friend/teacher with a name to sign it. On another point, one way or another the letter was long before Germany declared on the US, since Roosevelt initiated the Manhattan Project the day before Pearl Harbor. -- Kwantus 02:30, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Please do not deprive the artice from a perfectly correct and relevant information based on a "Google search". Einstein was not a moron to mindlessly sign something that others had drafted for him. Others may have helped him with the English text of the letter as Einstein's first language was German, but the contents of the letter clearly show it was his own. Furthermore, he was the ONLY signator of that letter, not one of many. This is not a negative reflection on Einstein as the article mentions that later in life he regretted having written that letter. I will put the original text back into the article.    --Keyvan 15:59 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)

It seems that Einstein became a Swiss citizen in February 1901. Why would that be incompatible with being director of Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics in Berlin from 1914 to 1933? -- Someone else 03:33 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Because unfortunately, if a lie is repeated enough for the masses, they start to believe it to be a fact. The fact is that Einstein was a citizen of Germany, and the Nazi regime revoked his citizenship in March of 1934. But by that time, Einstein was already living in USA (I believe he moved to USA in 1933). --Keyvan 03:39 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

I haven't looked it up in a reputable source, as I have none at hand. I trust you have done so. It's not hard to envision that he switched citizenships more than once, or that the Germans considered him a German citizen when he himself did not. -- Someone else 03:44 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Now looked up. According to Larousse's Biographical Dictionary, he took Swiss nationality in 1901 and was appointed examiner at the Swiss Patent Office 1902-1905, and became an American citizen in 1940. -- Someone else 03:51 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps it was possible to have dual citizenship, or as you said, maybe he switched back and forth multiple times. But he certainly did serve as director of Physics Institute at the Kaiser Wilhelm Society for the Advancement of Sciences from 1914 to 1933. And his citizenship was revoked in 1934, so that suggests that by 1934 he was still a citizen of Germany (at least on paper). If he had no alligiance to Germany all that time, indeed it would seem odd (perhaps even unethical) to accept such a high ranking position for nearly 20 years, and enjoy all the benefits. He certainly developed the bulk of his scientific achievements there. --Keyvan 03:58 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

I see no reason a Swiss citizen could not reside and work in Germany. If you find a reference that says he was a German citizen at the time, or a dual citizen, by all means add it. -- Someone else 04:03 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Why are we writing about a dead man in the present tense?

I note a few changes since I last saw this article, leading to two questions:

• Why are we writing about a dead man in the present tense? (a problem it seems especially in the "Early Years" section
• Why are marriage, etc, taken out of chronological order, so that we have in effect two biographies instead of one? --Someone else 01:10, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I've now changed present to past tense and restored chronological order. -- Someone else 04:55, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why write about history in the present tense? I'm not sure the exact reason, but one of the courses I took in college "Writing on History" (or something similar to that) instilled in me to write history in the present tense. It's commonly accepted by historians when writing on history that you write in the present tense (unless something has changed in the last decade since I left school). You probably could find out exactly if you research as to why historians do it, I forget right now. IIRC, It may be that it helps the readibility of the timeline.

Why chronological order not perfect? Musta been just a simple mistake (by me or was existing before I edited the page) ... not trying to develop a divergent history or anything ... reddi 14:37, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I can't find out exactly why historians do it, because they don't. And they don't mix past and present tenses within a paragraph. Get a refund on that course. And even if they did, encyclopedias don't. It certainly didn't help readability here. No problem, it's fixed now. -- Someone else 20:26, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Origins of QM

In 1922, when he was awarded the Nobel Prize, and his work on photoelectricity was mentioned by name, most physicists thought that, while the equation was correct, light quanta were impossible.

Just wondering, can someone cite a specific source for this? It's quite significant, a bit fuzzy ("most") and definitely a claim which some readers may wish to follow up further. -- Pde 09:09, September 5, 2003 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above. Max Plank was the one who first stated that light comes in quantized energy forms, and that was at the turn of the century. My physical electronics prof said that Arthur Holly Compton's experiments in 1926-1927 put the final nail in the coffin. So I have to believe that it had gaind major acceptance before 1922. --Raul654 14:40, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Einstein and school

The claim that he did poorly in school is completely bogus. This is a recurring urban rumor that started due to one biography (I can't remember which) and won't die. The whole thing resulted when the German school system decided to go from a 1-6 grading system with 1 as "A" to a decimal system with 100 as "A". For one particular year they reversed the 1-6, with 6 being "A", thereby confusing everyone, including the biographer who said he failed math. What's particularily annoying is that the very report card on which the 6 appears states in the comments that "Albert is very good at maths and sciences", but apparently the biographer couldn't/didn't read it.

User:Maury Markowitz 13:30, December 1, 2003 (UTC)

Einstein, Quantum Theory and EPR experiment

Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox is worth to mention. Its good point to discussion of Einsteins relation to quantum theory - myth spread by some popular books on physics is something like "even Einstein did not understood quantum mechanics", and EPR is clear example he know and understand very well.

That EPR article may well be his most contemporary cited - other works lie deep in foundations, but every second work on interpretations of Quantum Theory reference to EPR/

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.27.192.19 (talk • contribs) 22:30, December 10, 2003 (UTC)

Plagiarism, POV, etc

I don't see any reason to keep the section on plagiarism. The bit about Einstein being bad at math is patently false (in fact, Einstein's Ph.D. dissertation was nearly rejected because one of the examiners felt that it should have been submitted for a Ph.D. in math, not physics, as the subject was mostly differential equations.) However, I see no reason to toss out the vignette on Einstein's brain just because it was added by the same user. It seems to be verifiable and is an interesting footnote to Einstein's life. Isomorphic 20:08, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, after all the Charlie Chaplin pages mentions the grave robbery of his body. No need for the second sentence though, as it's a non-event (nothing of any significance happened on that road trip) and perhaps a plug for a book. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.68.253.204 (talk • contribs) 00:20, February 17, 2004 (UTC)

---

And this: http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Biographies/EinsteinBio.htm

states: "In 1895 Einstein failed an examination that would have allowed him to study for a diploma as an electrical engineer at the Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule (ETH) in Zurich. Einstein renounced German citizenship in 1896 and was to be stateless for a number of years...Following the failing of the entrance exam to the ETH, Einstein attended secondary school at Aarau planning to use this route to enter the ETH in Zurich."

What do you suppose constituted most of that examination? Mathematics, perhaps?

This document: http://www.thetech.org/exhibits/online/revolution/warnock/i_a.html

states: "Einstein failed 9th grade algebra."

This document: [link removed]

states: "The basic idea is this: Einstein was a poor student, of average ability. He even failed seventh grade math. There was nothing exceptional about his ability or accomplishments, until he got a job as a low level clerk in the patent office in Bern, Switzerland."

and this: "The claim is made that by working in the patent office, Albert Einstein had access to secret documents submitted by the leading scientists of his day. Albert Einstein essentially cut and pasted together these secret documents and published them as his own work. The scientists could hardly complain, as they had patent applications pending in his patent office."

and this: "The Encyclopedia Britannica says of Einstein's early education that he "showed little scholastic ability." It also says that at the age of 15, "with poor grades in history, geography, and languages, he left school with no diploma." Einstein himself wrote in a school paper of his "lack of imagination and practical ability." In 1895, Einstein failed a simple entrance exam to an engineering school in Zurich. This exam consisted mainly of mathematical problems, and Einstein showed himself to be mathematically inept in this exam. He then entered a lesser school hoping to use it as a stepping stone to the engineering school he could not get into, but after graduating in 1900, he still could not get a position at the engineering school! Unable to go to the school he wanted, he got a job at the patent office in Bern."

And one more document: http://www.engology.com/arteinstein1.htm

states: "Albert Einstein was born on March 14, 1879 in Wurtemburg, Germany. In 1895, Einstein attempted to enroll at Eidgenossische Technishe Hockshule (ETH), a technical university in Zurich, to study Electrical Engineering, but failed the entrance examination."

So this man, who was mathematically inept and a self-professed dullard who lacked both imagination and practical ability, published three papers that revolutionized physics, was awarded an honorary doctorate and won the Nobel prize all in one year? hmm...

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk • contribs) 20:19, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

The bit about Einstein failing grade school math is already debunked on the talk page above. I'll answer the rest. The quotes listed above are full of misconceptions, misumderstanding, and urban legends repeated as fact. The exact events surrounding Einstein's departure from the Gymnasium (high school, roughtly) without graduating are murky. It's fairly clear, however, that he didn't like it there, was bored with classical studies, and was a troublemaker. He was glad to go, and the administration was glad to kick him out. It had little to do with his ability, and certainly not with his mathematical ability.

Once he left the Gymnasium, he went to live with his parents in Italy. This created a difficulty because he was too old for the schools there, but family finances required him to start preparing for a career. Thus his father had him take the examinations for the ETH, despite the fact that Albert was two years younger than most students entering ETH. Einstein failed the exam. It's commonly believed that this is because he didn't meet standards in languages, biology, and other non-mathematical topics. In his own later words, his failure was his fault as he "had made no attempt whatsoever to prepare himself." It has been suggested this was because he didn't want to follow his father's wishes and become an electrical engineer.

He studied for a year nearby at the cantonal school at Aarau. He then passed the ETH exams on his second try, spent four years at ETH.

His attendance at another school eliminated the requirement of an entrance exams. A similar practice is used in universities all over the world to this day. If your test scores are abysmal, try a year or two at a junior college. - Plautus 02:36, February 14, 2004 (UTC)

"Einstein took his examination at the ETH in the summer of 1896. He passed, returned to his parents in Italy..." direct quote Einstein: The Life and Times by Ronald Clark. This was his second try, as he had failed in 1895. Isomorphic 20:56, February 16, 2004 (UTC)

While there, he studied math and physics under professors including Hermann Minkowski. He graduated with a respectable 4.91 out of 6.00. He was not hired subsequently because his he was an cocksure, independent student, and the physics professor at ETH, Heinrich Weber didn't like him.

How convenient. I'm amazed you didn't claim he wasn't hired due to antisemitism. - Plautus 02:36, February 14, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't, because that wouldn't have been true. Isomorphic 20:56, February 16, 2004 (UTC)

All this is summarized from the respected biography by Ronald Clark, sitting in front of me, not off a website or extracted out-of-context from an encyclopedia. Since I've gone to the trouble of typing it up, I wouldn't mind if someone would incorporate relevant bits of it into the main article when it gets unprotected. Isomorphic 21:46, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and incidentally, the idea that Einstein could've plagiarized this work from papers submitted to the patent office is just silly. Scientist do not submit patent applications for work in theoretical physics. Isomorphic 22:00, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

You're right, theoretical physicists don't patent their daydreams, but experimental physicists who actually produce something and expect compensation for it do patent their ideas. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk • contribs) 22:46, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

Special relativity and quantum mechanics were without practical application when Einstein wrote his papers on them. Why would anyone have put them in a patent application? Isomorphic 22:00, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It wasn't put into patent applications necessarily, but it was published in papers by these men. I'm sorry you have problems with observable reality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk • contribs) 22:46, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

YMMV on the patent office ... though I personally don't think he plagerized anything, I would say that being there was good for him and him developing the theories (seeing a bit o' this and a bit o' that ... but no one else had it all (only parts o' "it"); you should read some patents, they are neat) ... inventions are based on physics, see Tesla patents for an example of this [and I have my own personal conspiracy theories on 'stien and Tesla, not that there is much evidence (other than what is out there already) for 'em =-] ...

Now, as to Special relativity and quantum mechanics, that is just building on previous works [he may not of "independently" developed this, but most don't ... they work off of the work that had came before (this does not mean he plagerized anything though)] ... what I'm trying to say is that he connected the dots and told ppl (and got recognized; some who do connect things don't get recognized till years later [if ever]). I DO NOT agree that he palgerized other's work, only that he built upon what was there (ex. the Lorentz transforms) ... and this is done today (scientists don't reinvent the wheel) ... so I don't think it's a big deal (and I think that is what it says basically in the article, but i'll have to reread it) ... and this has never made me feel less of him (i've always like ol' 'stien) .... Sincerely, JDR 22:56, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

---

Since I protected it, I won't express an opinion. I can say that the section about his brain is true. →Raul654 20:15, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Google search for "einstein plagiarism" (7380 hits) finds "Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist", one on amazon.com, so the book probably exists. Κσυπ Cyp   20:16, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I was assuming that The Incorrigible Plagiarist exists. The question, of course, is whether it's worthwhile enough to repeat its claims in the article. I think not. Also, thanks to Plautus for figuring out how not to attribute his words to me this time. Isomorphic 20:32, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The text that Plautus satire keeps pasting in here is from this page: http://home.comcast.net/~xtxinc/einstein.htm It looks like it has a copyright notice on it. SheikYerBooty 20:34, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

---

If you'll check again you'll see it's not direct quoting, but paraphrasing. Paraphrasing is not a violation of fair use. Also quoting a single, unattributed sentence is not plagiarism as implied by fair use. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk • contribs) 20:38, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

Plaguarism and copyright violations are not the same thing. Fair use protects againt copyright violations. At Wikipedia, we care about both. Therefore, when quoting, we cite sources. →Raul654 20:39, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

---

And does agreeing with a sentiment and expressing it using similar words equate to plagiarism? Am I to cite every source or merely one arbitrary source of a given "idea" before I am able to put that idea into words? Give me a break. What I did was in no way a violation of fair use nor was it plagiarism. If I thought it were appropriate to sprinkle URL's around to back up every statement I would, but that's what talk is for is it not? I'll gladly provide abundant souce material here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk • contribs) 20:42, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

The litmus test for plaguarism is - "are the thoughts you are expressing yours?" In this case, you took someone else's words (thoughts) without attribution. That is plaguarism. Even if it wasn't a copyright violation (something I am not convinced of either way - Jamesday would be better to ask though), we still don't want plagurized material here. →Raul654 20:47, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

---

Instead of plagiarism I suggest you look up the word slander. I did not claim that the idea Einstein was a plagiarist came from me or my own research or, as Einstein would probably claim, from my dreams and thought experiments. If I had, then you would have a case to make against me for plagiarism. Honestly this tit-for-tat crap has got to go. I did, in fact, claim that a named author who wrote an also named book presents abundant evidence of Einstein's plagiarism and the extent to which it was known about by his contemporaries. And in describing that book I chose words that were very similar to words used by others to describe the same book. Is it plagiarism for two people to observe the same book and draw the same conclusions from it? Hardly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk • contribs) 20:51, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

Let's pick that statement apart:

• I did not claim that the idea Einstein was a plagiarist came from me or my own research ... experiments.

You did. The name "Einstein" evokes images of genius, but Albert Einstein was, in fact, a plagiarist, who copied the theories of Lorentz, Poincare, Gerber, and Hilbert. Notice, no citation, which means you (supposedly) came up with this idea on your own. Also, I'd like to note that according to official Wikipedia policy, only accepted facts and theories are supposed to be here, and original research is not. This particular statement is not generally accepted.

• If I had, then you would have a case to make against me for plagiarism.

Agreed.

• Honestly this tit-for-tat crap has got to go.

Agreed.

• I did, in fact, claim that a named author who wrote an also named book presents abundant evidence of Einstein's plagiarism and the extent to which it was known about by his contemporaries.

Agreed.

• And in describing that book I chose words that were very similar to words used by others to describe the same book.

A likely story. The similiarities are almost word for word. →Raul654 21:09, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

• Is it plagiarism for two people to observe the same book and draw the same conclusions from it? Hardly.

I agree, if that is the case.

→Raul654 21:09, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Raul654, I'm going to give you the try-hard award for this one. Clearly you're going way out on a limb to hang this plagiarism charge on me. Careful, don't get too close to the end of the limb, oh no, don't fall! - Plautus Satire 21:15, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

---

Just a note ... I tried to include his info, but the "critic" refused to leave it at the end (a good place for critics of all sorts, not just 'stien). It's not suitable for the intro. But, appearantly the "critic" didn't want to "go along" (I personally tried to note the criticsm after it was posted in the article (copy edited it and put it @ the bottom)... the crticism would/should be noted (as einstien does have them today; but most are refutable) and this should placed appropriately (everyone has critics, but leave it to the last)) ... so, instead, we got a page protection =-\ ... JDR 21:18, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

---

I see. You want the observable evidence relegated to a "criticism" of the Einsteinian fables. Wonderful idea. Don't put relevant facts up front where they can be seen to conflict with the dogma. - Plautus Satire 21:21, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

You see? I don't think you do ...

"Want the observable evidence relegated to a "criticism" of the Einsteinian fables"? Ummm no ... "criticism" (everyone and everything got one) could be noted ... just placed in the appropriate space ... NOT @ the beginning (other articles have crtics, and they nearly always are @ the bottom) ... you have to explain subject before you can criticize it ...

"Wonderful idea"? So you agree? hmmm ...mabey not ...

"Don't put relevant facts up front where they can be seen to conflict with the dogma"? I am starting to think what you are saying is dogma ... NOW, it's called point-counterpoint .... state the detail / facts and, then, state the opposing facts (with addition point-counterpoints on those) ... you will find that is the general way around these part [from my experience; alot of articles have critic sections]. I have heard some of your criticism ... and could agree on some criticism [some other criticism not] ('stien has been a personal hero o' mine since I was young ... so this is not a "new" thing to me ... I may have heard o' some o' the critical points that you place in earlier IIRC ...), and I would like to include your points (if not only for the fact to refute them with others points, as there are counterpoints to the critics) ... but you have to be cooperative, not combative.Sincerely, JDR 21:54, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

If your ideas have merit, that will be enough to get them general acceptance. Once they are generally accepted, we'll see about giving them a more prominent place in the article. Right now, this comes under the catagory of "crank theory" -- which, for the record, is explictely exluded by wikipedia policy →Raul654 21:25, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

You mean like the idea of a deity? Clearly the idea of a deity is an absurd notion, but a very popular one. Last time I checked about ninety-eight percent of the human population of Earth believed in some sort of deity. Should evolutionary theory simply be an appendix of possible criticisms of biblical creationism? - Plautus Satire 21:27, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps, but you're changing the issue (again). →Raul654 21:29, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

You started it. - Plautus Satire 21:34, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

You're trolling. If you keep it up much longer, you will inevitably be banned. →Raul654 21:49, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Citation: for those that thought Plautus just "came up with this idea," please refer to at least one book on the subject: "Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist", Christopher Jon Bjerknes, 2002, XTX Inc., isbn: 0-9719629-8-7 There are others as well, but the interested researcher can surely find them on his/her own. -Ionized 19:32, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)

Plautus himself cited that book. It's already been discussed on this page, unless Plautus deleted or edited the discussions. Nothing new, no reason to bring it up again. Curps 19:55, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ok, I did not see that. All I saw where people asking for references. Next time Ill try to sift deeper into the muck to see what has been cited already. -Ionized 05:52, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)

Zionism

I intend to insert material into the Albert Einstein entry near the existing claim that Albert Einstein was a zionist. I intend to elaborate further, citing the volume of his writings titled About Zionism: Speeches and Lectures by Professor Albert Einstein published in 1930, which is, I believe, the source of this claim he was a zionist (which he claims in this volume). (P.S.: also correcting "first president" to "second president")- Plautus 00:41, February 15, 2004 (UTC)

I would like to remove the added paragraphs of Einstein's alleged Zionism. Failing that, I think a NPOV dispute disclaimer should be added until we come to an agreement. If we do keep the Zionism information then the least we can do is move it to the correct sub-level under politics. This is a hot topic recently so I'm asking here before just moving stuff around. SheikYerBooty 19:58, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

In the first place, I didn't "add paragraphs of Einstein's alleged zionism". The claim was already in the entry that Einstein was a supporter of zionism. What I did was provide source material in Einstein's own words where he stated he was in fact a religionist, a zionist and a nationalist. Later testimony from him on the subject seems to indicate age mellowed him away from these "hardline" stances. In the second place, I stated what Einstein claimed about himself. Where is the dispute? It seems the only dispute is you disputing nearly any and everything that I post. Get over it already. Take your lumps and move on. Why is it you fail to mention I corrected a glaring factual error, namely that Einstein was offered the SECOND presidency of Israel, not the FIRST. Check the page history and see how long the WRONG information has been in there. Where were your cries of outrage and dispute then? I suspect you are simply a reactionary person who has got a hardon for me and is out to do in anything I contribute to wikipedia in any way you are able to. How many times are you going to try and get my working pages protected, reverted and my IP banned in violation of the wikipedia guidelines? Where is my persistent vandalism? Disagreeing with you and the other people who are more comfortable with fables than with truth? That's not vandalism, that's a cry in the wilderness, the frustrated shouts of the only human being on Planet of the Apes. - Plautus 03:58, February 16, 2004 (UTC)

(PS: I added material to clarify an EXISTING CLAIM, I did not "add" the claim that Einstein was a zionist as Sheikyerbooty suggests below.) Plautus satire 16:52, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Plautus, you most certainly did add "paragraphs" to the article regarding Mr. Einstein's changing support for Zionism. The word count now stands at approximately 480, before you came online is was 27 words. You've admitted yourself that his views "mellowed" as he got older yet your included quotes and statements try and picture him at his most extreme. We need to come to an agreement and compromise since I intend to start editing that page tomorrow, but I won't get involved in an edit war with you.

I've not tried to get you banned or blocked, I've only asked for your cooperation in discussing things before you start (and continue) edit wars, but you've decided to ignore those requests and continue with your hardline attitude. I do find it strange that you've been involved in numerous edit wars, been blocked at least twice and directly caused at least four pages to get locked, all that in two days. Relax sport, it's just an encyclopedia.

SheikYerBooty 06:33, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

First of all, how many of my edits are still extant? How many of the overreactions to my edits were halted by page protection? How much of my input is still in wikipedia, despite the efforts of you and others to squash my input? Here's a clue, Sheikyerbooty: I don't have to get your permission to edit pages. Every edit I have made to wikipedia was after consideration and the arrival at the conclusion that what I saw was wrong, but what I knew was right. If I make mistakes I am more than willing to admit it, because of the "good faith" nature of my edits. All good faith edits to pages should be given all due consideration, instead of immediately being reverted in a kneejerk fashion simply because evidence conflicts with the pre-existing fables. Like the fable about Einstein being offered the first presidency of Israel, which he was not. I corrected that, and I corrected and added other things about Einstein, such as the very relevant fact that his brain was not cremated, but was in fact preserved by a pathologist. Perhaps encyclopedia entries aren't the place for speculative conclusions, but they most certainly are the place to put relevant facts about a subject, don't you agree? What am I saying, of course you agree. You just don't seem to be willing to practice what you preach when you take a dislike to another contributor. - Plautus satire 16:55, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Second of all, what I did was make "good faith" edits of entries. You and others started the "revision wars" without proper discussion. Apparently you and others felt the need to "protect" the masses from my presentations of factual information. Once again, how much of that factual information is still there, despite attempts by you and others to bury it all? You're right, it is strange that so many people would oppose such obviously good and valid edits. It's almost as if there is some sort of troll mafia out there determined to preserve crippled knowlege. Why is it that you and others are unwilling to take any responsibility for an "edit war"? It takes two people to have a fight, didn't your mother ever teach you that, or were you an only child? Only children do tend to be spoiled and pouty. Continuous reversion in place of disucssion of facts on the table is just as culpable for an edit war as the original good faith edit which included those facts. - Plautus satire 17:02, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

---

Einstein, a "mathematician"?

It is misleading to call Einstein a "physicicist and mathematician" . His degrees were in physics only, and while he undoubtedly had a certain mastery of mathematics, so do many people in many fields. Moreover, according to Clarke's well-respected biography, he was helped tremendously by the mathematician Hermann Minkowski from Göttingen, Germany, who described Einstein as a "lazy dog who never bothered about mathematics at all." Einstein wrote, "The people in Göttingen sometimes strike me not as if they wanted to help formulate something clearly, but as if they wanted only to show us physicists how much brighter they are than we." He also joked, "Since the mathematicians have attacked [i.e., reformulated] the relativity theory, I myself no longer understand it any more." Johnstone 23:17, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

True enough. He used math to the extent that all physicists do, not the sort of abstract math that mathematicians do. 67.68.253.204 00:31, February 17, 2004 (UTC)

Another person who helped Einstein with mathematics was his friend Marcel Grossman. -- Miguel Thu Feb 19 05:55 GMT 2004

• It's "misleading" to not call Einstien a physicicist and mathematician. "He undoubtedly had a mastery of mathematics". JDR 00:36, February 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • Albert Einstein - Mathematician and Physicist
  • School of Mathematics and Statistics University of St Andrews, Scotland
  • famousmathematician.com

Reddi, by your definition, which theoretical physicists would not be mathematicians? Every theoretical physicist must have a very strong mastery of math. Consider the list of branches of mathematics. Mathematicians generally specialize in one or more of those branches. 67.68.253.204 00:44, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The School of Mathematics and Statistics and famousmathematician.com agree that he was a mathematician. JDR 00:57, February 17, 2004 (UTC)

famousmathematician.com says "Primary Occupation: Mathematician", which is simply silly. Please understand I mean Einstein no disrespect. It's just that you'd really have to change the entries for Feynman, Hawking, etc and call them all mathematicians too. 67.68.253.204 01:02, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

School of Mathematics and Statistics is pretty authoritative on math topics. They call him one. famousmathematician probably have reasons that they cite his primary occupation as a Mathematician. If you could find a nice site to refute that he was one, that be a good start ... but, again, the university of St Andrews is pretty tough to argue with. As to the other ones, change 'em (but have a reaons (ie., citation)). JDR 01:11, February 17, 2004 (UTC)

It's not worth arguing over. If you like, Einstein is famous enough to be an "honorary" mathematician. No citation needed, my background is in physics. Although physics is more strongly grounded in math than any other science, and although theoretical physics has often pioneered new mathematical techniques which mathematicians later make more rigorous, and there is a strong cross-fertilization of ideas back and forth between theoretical physics and math, still... you are effectively claiming that every theoretical physicist should also be considered a mathematician, and that is not how most people in those fields or outside would see it. 67.68.253.204 01:24, February 17, 2004 (UTC)

Every theoretical physicist is a mathematician? Mabey ... especially if they deal with and work in mathematical techniques (not all do; experimentalism is far superior than math IMO ... and those that experiment can still be theoretical physicists)

Not how outside would see it? YMMV on that ... as many do ... and those inside the field do to [see the above reference to the school]

I think what we are discussing is a "exclusive vs inclusive" arguement ... and, as can be been seen from the above links, it's safer to err for the inclusion than the exclusion [though YMMV on it]. Sincerely, JDR 01:40, February 17, 2004 (UTC)

especially if they deal with and work in mathematical techniques (not all do; experimentalism is far superior than math IMO ... and those that experiment can still be theoretical physicists). This makes no sense. Experimentalism is not theoretical physics. There are some extreemly new directions that theoretical physics has taken that don't use math per se, but Einstein was involved in none of them, nor were they even around in his time. As far as Einstein is concerned, the term theoretical physicist implies someone who uses math. But just because you use math does not make you a mathmatition. Everyone uses math, you use it to balance your checkbook, or to figure out how long your drive to work is going to take, that doesn't make you a mathmatition. That fact is fairly obvious and I don't see that it changes simply because the math in question is harder. --Starx 15:35, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My quick search of several other encyclopedias revealed that none of them referred to Einstein as a "mathematician":

Encyclopedia Britannica calls him a "German-American physicist"

Encarta.msn.com, a "German-born American physicist and Nobel laureate"

Encyclopedia.com, an "American theoretical physicist"

Columbia Encyclopedia, an "American theoretical physicist"

Just because some mathematicians wish to claim one of the greatest intellects in history as one of their own doesn't mean that everyone has to play along if its not accurate. A mathematician, according to Merriam-Webster's, is "a specialist or expert in mathematics". Einstein did not specialize in math, and he was not considered an expert, as evidenced by the quotes in my original posting at the top of this section.

If he had a degree in mathematics, or had published groundbreaking research papers that dealt exclusively with math, and not problems in physics that happened to require math, then he could legitimately be called a "mathematician". Johnstone 01:23, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree (see my comments earlier).

Reddi, look at it this way. Einstein won the Nobel prize in physics. Would he have been a candidate to win the Fields medal, which is the equivalent in math? The answer is no... it wasn't his field (pun intended). 67.70.52.148 01:35, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The answer is no, but not for your incorrect reason. Edward Witten is widely considered a theoretical physicist, but he won the Fields medal. So being a physicist does not disqualify you as long as you make significant mathematical contributions. The first Fields Medal was awarded in 1936, and at that late date, Einstein would not have been young enough -- there is an age requirement. Of course, this is only a tangent and not really relevant to the main discussion. --C S 08:55, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

The nobel was primarily for experimentation that he did. He was a mathemtician (see citations above and see below by Isomorphic). JDR 01:51, February 19, 2004 (UTC)

While I tend to agree that Einstein was not a mathematician, it is interesting to note that according to Clark's biography, Einstein's doctoral dissertation ran into some difficulty because the initial reviewer believed that the content was more appropriate for an applied mathematics degree. So stating that he was one would not be a terrible error. Isomorphic 02:52, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have searched for the quote in Clark's biography but couldn't find it. Do you recall the page? (It doesn't change my mind, but I am curious to read it nonetheless.)

Here's another way of looking at this issue: In addition to being a physicist, Einstein was also a "pacifist", "philosopher", "sailor", "violinist", and "Zionist", among other things. Would including these in the first sentence of the article acomplish anything other than to muddle it? Johnstone 01:34, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Those are not usually include ... though the profession of physicist and mathematician are. JDR 01:51, February 19, 2004 (UTC)

"Mathematician" is not "usually" included in general encyclopedias (see above). Two of the examples you cite are math sites (which is equivalent to a "sailing" site listing Einstein as a famous person who sailed), or a single article in about.com. Johnstone 02:02, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Though it's generally recognized that he was a mathematician, I hope the intro as now is more suitable to you and others (It still includes the mathematician ref, while not explicitly stating he was such). The general encyclopedias, IMO, are examples that the fact was missed ... something the wikipedia can catch and correct (as is the case in some articles @ wikipedia). But, to sidestep the issue (and foster less flip-flop editing of the article), I think the intro as of now is good to include the information and not refute institutions such as School of Mathematics. Sincerely, JDR 19:11, February 19, 2004 (UTC)

The new wording looks OK to me. I've removed the parentheses because it's an easier read without them. Johnstone 00:56, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I don't have the reference with me. I'll look it up later tonight and give you the page. Anyway, I'm not really pushing to include "mathematician" in the opening. I'm certain Einstein didn't consider himself one. I was just bringing up a relevant bit of historical minutae. Isomorphic 02:14, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Here we go. Fifth paragraph of the section "Swiss Civil Servant" in Clark's biography quotes Alfred Kleiner saying "as the principle achievement of Einstein's work consists of the treatment of differential equations, it is thus of a mathematical nature and belongs to analytical mechanics." The work in question is the Ph.D. thesis. Isomorphic 19:24, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort of looking that up. I appreciate it. Johnstone 00:56, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Mathematician" is needed to describe Einstien's entire scientific career (Relativity being based in equations (and portions of the equations are untested)). JDR 08:17, February 19, 2004 (UTC)

There is not a single branch of physics that is not based on equations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.70.53.90 (talk • contribs) 19:28, February 19, 2004 (UTC)

Expermients are what physics is based off of (math is used for other things; see by some as primary, though it is secondary) .... and A New Kind of Science (book) I think is a recents acknowledgement that math is not what you want physics based off of. JDR 19:33, February 19, 2004 (UTC)

Reddi, you don't seem to grasp what is considered the essential distinction between physicists (or scientists in general) and mathematicians, as far as professionally -- physicists' primary intellectual goal is to understand the laws of nature, to make hypotheses about the physical world that can be tested by experiment, and to organise and conceptualise these conclusions into theories which are not infrequently expressed in terms of mathematics; mathematicians' primary intellectual goal is to understand the laws of mathematical objects, which are independent of experimental "verification", to make hypotheses about these objects and their relations, and to prove these hypotheses by rigorous deductive processes. The most important distinction is proof -- mathematicians are obsessed with the reasons why mathematical claims must be true; scientists (to generalise greatly) usually just care if the mathematics works and helps express their theories. As far as teaching, the thought processes and "indoctrination" (for lack of a better word) that math teachers do is not really the same as science teachers. So, the question is, how much original mathematical research did Einstein do? In other words, did he actually develop the mathematical theories themselves, and prove theorems about them, or did he just use them to solve his problems? I confess, I don't know the exact answer to this question. And I realise the line between mathematician and theoretical physicist is not that clear (many theoretical physicists prove lots of theorems and essentially do math, in the way I described above). I do know that Einstein used tensor calculus, differential geometry, and differential equations, but these were tools that had been around for a while (Riemann's work was a half-century old). Just because some physics professor read his ph.d. thesis, got confused, and said, "it looks like applied math" isn't enough to convince me he was really a mathematician. I believe the 4 encyclopedias quoted above are more accurate not to include this. (Your response that "it just shows they're wrong" is such circular logic I don't need to point this out.) Even if Einstein had some small mathematical output, this achievement pales in comparison to his contributions to physics itself. I would like those who believe Einstein made major accomplishments to mathematics (read carefully, as opposed to "having great mathematical facility" or "a great knowledge of math", any working physicist must have this) to give me specific evidence -- papers that are mathematical in nature, theorems he proved, etc. Quoting the name of a couple websites is lazy. I just don't understand your argument -- if I understand you correctly, it could be argued that ALL physicists are mathematicians, because they use such advanced math, which is absurd. Revolver 04:12, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Though it's generally recognized that he was a mathematician

Maybe among the people you know. Among physicists and mathematicians, this is not true. Almost everyone I know would say that Einstein was a theoretical physicist, but not a mathematician. Revolver 04:34, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have heard that Einstein was often referred to as a mathematician in the popular press in the early 20th century, but that was only because the term "theoretical physicist" was not in wide popular use in the newspapers of the time. Einstein had a good theoretical physicist's grasp of mathematics, but he used it in a theoretical physicist's way, rather than studying it as a subject in itself as a mathematician would; he collaborated with mathematicians such as Grossman to help him with mathematical details. --Matt McIrvin 17:47, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In the professional literature on the history of science that I have seen, Einstein is a physicist, not a mathematician. He worked on physical problems, not mathematical ones. There are some people who did both, such as Henri Poincare. But that means that they published on both subjects. Einstein published on physics. He used a lot of math in his physics, but that doesn't make him a mathematician (it does, however, make him pretty awesome). --Fastfission 20:15, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Einstein's only contribution to mathematics, from what my many math department professors have told me, was a method of expressing sums using subscripts instead of Sigma notation for ease of readability. And that's really just a contribution to the language of mathematics, not to actual mathematical theory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.120.158.84 (talk • contribs) 03:49, October 24, 2004 (UTC)

Don't believe everything you're told. He did more than that. That kind of comment is more a joke in the style mathematicians like to make rather than a serious historical remark. I challenge any of your professors that said that to say it in a public forum as a serious claim. Don't knock Einstein summation either; it's very useful. --C S 08:55, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

Please remember that before WW2 and atom bomb, physics and physicists weren't as well known for public as they are today. In his time, he was often entitled as mathematician by people who weren't sure what physicist meant. 30 Jan 2005 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.234.204.251 (talk • contribs) 13:07, January 30, 2005 (UTC)

---

Zionism again

Restarting the Zionism discussion - what is the source for the idea that Einstein's Zionism waned in his later years? The following three paragraphs are Einstein's own words, from his message declining the Israeli presidency.

"All my life I have dealt with objective matters, hence I lack both the natural aptitude and the experience to deal properly with people and to exercise official functions. For these reasons alone I should be unsuited to fulfill the duties of that high office, even if my advancing age was not making increasing inroads on my strength.

I am the more distressed over these circumstances because my relationship to the Jewish people has become my strongest human bond, ever since I became fully aware of our precarious situation among the nations of the world.

Now that we have lost the man who for so many years, against such great and tragic odds, bore the heavy responsibility of leading us towards political independence [note: I'm pretty sure he means Chaim Weizmann, first president of Israel, who had just died and whose place Einstein was being asked to take,] I hope with all my heart that a successor may be found whose experience and personality will enable him to accept the formidable and responsible task."

I will wait for response before editing, since apparently this is controversial, but I don't think the above paragraphs leave much room for dispute, nor can I find anything else in the Clark biography that suggests that Einstein ever wavered in his support for Israel. I'm not pushing a viewpoint, but I just want the article to reflect the best information available. If anyone has conflicting evidence with a good source, please present it. Isomorphic 23:34, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

---

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed by Isomorphic above. I would like to see more evidence that Einstein abandoned the self-professed zionism of his younger days. All I've ever been able to find are his own words stating he was zionist, religionist and nationalist, and only inferences drawn about his "waning" zionism as age supposedly mellowed him. More support or I agree, this bit about his zionism waning should be removed or conditionally phrased to reflect the lack Einstein's own statements to draw upon. - Plautus satire 00:57, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

---

From earlier material in this page discussion:
in January 1946 Einstein stated: "The State idea is not according to my heart. I cannot understand why it is needed. It is connected with narrow-mindedness and economic obstacles. I believe that it is bad. I have always been against it. He went further to deride the concept of a Jewish commonwealth as an "imitation of Europe, the end of which was brought about by nationalism."

You make an excellent case using Einstein's words that he changed his mind and lied by claiming he had never supported the state of Israel, but this only tangentally addresses the issue of his zionism. A casual reader may not be aware of the minimal associations between zionism and nationalism, maybe add a brief clause about that relation to slightly soften his perceived zionism with age. Yes, no? - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In his 1950 book, Out of My Later Years, he said: "I should much rather see a reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain."

The message declining the presidency required diplomacy and tact, to do otherwise would risk offense. But Einstein strongly opposed nationalism in any form and subscribed to a universalist philosophy and was not particularly pious or religious. It may be that he supported Zionism as a religious concept but had considerable difficulty when the situation turned into an armed conflict between nations. Declining the presidency of Israel was a consequence of his universalist views. Curps 02:51, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Interesting that you provide no quotes here. And what do you make of his early (around 1900) claims that he was a religionist? What do you suppose he meant by "religionist"? He stated he wasn't a racial jew but a religious jew. - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Zionism" is a very loaded word today, in the context of 50 years of bitter armed conflict between nations and peoples. It did not have the same polarizing connotations back in the 1920s as a utopian religious concept, probably many Zionists back then hoped for some kind of peaceful accomodation with Arab populations. Today it implies Israeli nationalism and Einstein strongly opposed any form of nationalism.

Maybe you should petition to have the word zionism stricken from the entry as inflammatory. It's been done before with "conspiracy theory". - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Tangental question to satisfy my nagging curiosity: Which side is the "nation" and which side is the "people"? - Plautus satire 03:26, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The political views section should be kept short, since this is only incidental to his scientific accomplishments which take up the bulk of this article. So no more than one short paragraph each should be given to pacifism, socialism, nuclear disarmament, or Zionism. And any Zionism paragraph must present the right balance. Curps 03:14, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion if we don't have Einstein's words what we have is speculation. Any quotes from him that support speculation about his beliefs should be highlighted, speculation and deduction based on personal prejudice should be avoided entirely. - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Einstein also apparently wrote a letter to the Palestinian Arab Newspaper Falastin on January 28, 1930, in which he wrote:

"One who, like myself, has cherished for many years the conviction that the humanity of the future must be built up on an intimate community of the nations, and that aggressive nationalism must be conquered, can see a future for Palestine only on the basis of peaceful cooperation between the two peoples who are at home in the country."

This was back in 1930, in his younger days. The word "Zionism" clearly meant something different to Einstein back then (Jewish settlement of Palestine with both Jews and Arabs living there) than it does to us today (state of Israel), which is why it is fairly unhelpful and potentially polarizing to even include a section on Zionism at all. Curps 03:39, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree this should go in there, but not at the expense of his earlier statements, as long as no reasonable (relevant and non-redundant) quotes are specifically omitted I can't think of any issues I have here. Of course I can not speak for everyone. As a side note, Curps, I hope you see I am not bearing you any grudge. If I criticize you it's because I feel I have a valid criticism. In this case I think you did fine research, as I for one have never seen those words of Einstein before. Well done. - Plautus satire 03:51, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your reference, Curps. I don't think Einstein's Zionism was motivated by any religious feelings, or from any great respect for the Jewish religion. As you say, Einstein was not a practicing Jew, and from what I know his personal religious beliefs are more like deism or pantheism. Again in his own words, "nor is there anything in me which could be called 'Jewish faith.'" After further reading, it seems to me that his support was for Judaism as a cultural and ethnic identity, and for Israel as a focus for Jewish cultural and ethnic awareness, not for Israel as a nation-state.

Regardless of how the issue of Einstein's Zionism is eventually treated, I think there needs to be a bit more focus on his pacifism, which was at least as fundamental to his outlook. Also, I disagree that his politics are less important than his scientific work. Einstein produced very little of scientific significance after General Relativity, but he was a very visible public figure until his death. Isomorphic 04:13, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

---

gibberish

This is gibberish

The idea later proved invaluable for understanding how the Big Bang, which was a pure burst of energy, could lead to the precipitation of a universe filled with matter (it turns out that the energy required to create the matter is exactly offset by the negative potential energy of the universe's gravitational well).

I'm not sure this is true....

Even after experiments showed that Einstein's equations for the photoelectric effect were accurate, his explanation was not universally accepted. In 1922, when he was awarded the Nobel Prize, and his work on photoelectricity was mentioned by name, most physicists thought that, while the equation was correct, light quanta were impossible.

Roadrunner 11:28, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I don't know about the top (may be related to the recent news) .... but the bottom can be changed (and I did). IIRC, his initial equations were not acccepted. Later, they were .... [BTW, it wasn't for the equations that he got the Nobel, it was the experiment to show it ... (the PE experiment and "other contributions", more precisely)]. Sincerely, JDR 12:48, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

trip to Japan

What is the relevance of Einstein's trip to Japan? Did something significant take place? Is it especially memorable for some reason (eg, first trip by a Nobel laureate to Japan? I doubt it). Otherwise it's too trivial to include. Curps 03:14, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Mar 2004 – Jan 2005

Pantheist?

Just noticed that a link to List of Pantheists was added and removed. From what I know of Einstein's religion, it's probably misleading to associate him with any organized religion or philosophy. I remember reading a quote somewhere to the effect that noone else means quite what Einstein meant when he said "God." Isomorphic 05:41, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I had him on a list of pantheists, but it appears that only obscure pantheist organizations call him a pantheist. If anyone knows something substantial or verifiable on the subject, that would be great, but otherwise I'll leave him out, due to obvious objections from certain parties Sam Spade 06:17, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Beyond that, normal convention is not to link to have items on lists link to the lists. There are just too many weird lists on Wikipedia to have them link back, and so the lists are usually only linked to from general articles on the subject. So Pantheism should link to List of Pantheists, but the article for a given pantheist should not.

Also, is it properly Pantheist or pantheist? Because if it's properly lowercase, then the article should be moved to List of pantheists. Snowspinner 15:01, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Languages he spoke?

Did Einstein speak in English or German or both languages ? How fluent was his English ? Jay 17:33, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Albert Einstein as a trademark

"This popularity has also lead to a widespread use of Einstein in advertisement and merchandising, eventually including the registration of Albert Einstein™ as a trademark."

Is that accurate? Could we have some more information on that? --Tothebarricades.tk 05:17, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Already provided. Brutannica 06:01, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't notice that section. I'm so dumb sometimes... :P --Tothebarricades.tk 06:23, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Copyright status of the images in this article

The main image Image:Albert Einstein.jpg has no copyright info, Image:Einstein patentoffice.jpg is under fairuse, Image:Einstein2.jpg is in the public domain and Image:Einstongue.jpg is presumably fairuse as well though detailed info is provided.

Only one of them specifies a source, this needs to be fixed. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 09:55, 2004 Aug 29 (UTC)

Here's an idea: contact CalTech and see if they will approve of using some of their Einstein images under Fair Use. Out of all places I bet they'd be the most receptive to this idea (more so than a private company). They have a ton of GREAT Einstein pictures: http://archives.caltech.edu/photoNet.html --Fastfission 02:40, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, Image:Einstein patentoffice.jpg is actually in the public domain. I've asked the uploader of Image:Albert Einstein.jpg to supply the source and licensing info; alternatively, this could be replaced by either Image:Karsh Einstein.jpg or the larger version of the same, Image:Albert Einstein by Yousuf Karsh.jpg, which is in the public domain, too. remains the "tongue" picture. Lupo 09:52, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and Image:Einstein2.jpg was not PD, it was a copyrighted Magnum photo which I have just deleted for that reason (and also because we do have PD replacements for it). Lupo 12:52, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Time for featured-article status?

It seems an obvious choice, but apparently this article has not been nominated as a Featured article candidate. Would someone like to do the honors? - dcljr 04:58, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Mmm... I dunno. I always thought it could use more on Einstein's personality and political views (although those sections might have been fleshed out by now), and some of the science stuff might be a little too complicated. Brutannica 07:52, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I nominated the article now. --ThomasK 05:20, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Light bent by gravity

In the section Albert Einstein#General_relativity, it says:

...when it was tested by measuring how much the sun's rays were bent by gravity during a solar eclipse, ...

That doesn't make sense. If I recall that experiment correctly, it was measured by how much the light emanating from a star "behind" the sun was bent by the sun's gravity. The experiment was made during a solar eclipse because a star behind or very close (in line-of-sight) to the sun would otherwise not be visible at all. The findings from that experiment matched the predictions made by the theory. Somebody can explain "behind" better than me, I'm sure. Lupo 10:51, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

My apologies... I can't recall my source. Brutannica 02:01, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

BTW, do we have an article on this experiment somewhere? It was a milestone that certainly deserves coverage, and with a diagram, the whole thing becomes much easier to explain, too. Lupo 11:01, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The best I found was gravitational lens... I've corrected the article. Lupo 11:16, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Posted to Prague?

Am I mistaken, or was Einstein not posted to Prague at some point before Berlin? User:sca 18:37, October 5, 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 21:06, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)) Yes. Though "posted" is the wrong word. He was offered a prof-ship there.

Also the article says: "Einstein settled in Berlin as professor at the local university." There are 4 universities in Berlin so the phrasing is vague, if not inacurrate. I feel some details should be added on the Prague-Berlin period. --128.12.193.8 09:09, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Disliking "Time mags person of the century"

(William M. Connolley 21:06, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)) I dislike the text under the photo: "Time mags person of the century"... since he is so much more important than time mag, and their judgement of scientific matters is irrelevant, it seems rather demeaning. There must be a better scientific quote to put in.

Criticism and allegations of plagiarism

I have removed the following additions:

The name "Einstein" evokes images of genius, but some critics have claimed that he was a plagiarist, who allegedly infringed on previous theories of Lorentz, Poincare, Gerber, and Hilbert. One critic, Christopher Jon Bjerknes, documented what he saw as plagiarism in the work titled "Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist". Bjerknes see some of Einstein's work as not properly acknowledging his contemporaries, in addition to providing formal logical argument demonstrating that Einstein could not have drawn the conclusions he claimed to have drawn without prior knowlege of the works he referenced, but did not cite nor credit. Numerous quotations from Einstein's contemporaries are also included to support the notion that Einstein's infringements had indeed been noticed. Others disagree with Bjerknes.

Christopher J. Bjerknes (2002). Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist. ISBN 0-971-96298-7

The reasons I have removed them are 1) this book is not taken seriously by ANY mainstream historians of science or physicists and in the few respectable places it has actually been reviewed it has been denounced as pure rubbish [5]; 2) from my looking at selections of it online, I think it is pure rubbish and not worthy of a paragraph on the Wikipedia article -- the author obviously has no idea about the history of Einstein's relativity nor the historiography of priority disputes, much less the differences between Einstein and Poincaré and Lorentz, which are significant, and cites criticisms from members of the Nazi Deutsche Physik movement as evidence against Einstein which is either very sloppy or horribly offensive; 3) the book in question was published by a vanity press and has not received enough mainstream attention to make it or its claims encyclopedic. The section is incredibly POV, of course ("Others disagree" and "some critics" makes it sound like this is actually a widely supported view, which it is not), but that could be changed. In trying to make it NPOV, I had the feeling that it really oughtn't even bother being part of this article in the first place. If someone wants to disagree with my decision, though, I'm open to talking about it, of course. --Fastfission 04:18, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• I might also note that the justification that Bjerknes gives for all other mainstream scientists and historians from not realizing this sooner or agreeing with him, if I recall, is because they're all part of the big Einstein sham conspiracy (personally, I get a payoff of about $100 a month to keep my mouth shut). It is classic conspiracy theory nonsense. --Fastfission 04:20, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• I would also like to note that the only reason I can think of to include this sort of information is if this conspiracy theory nonsense is widespread enough to be considered encyclopedic. I don't think it is, it has attracted little attention even on the internet much less in mainstream press. However if someone has a different feeling for this I'd be happy to hear it. I only know about it because one of my friends stumbled across it and sent me the link a long time back, it is not something that historians of Einstein are even generally cognisant of, much less the general public. --Fastfission 04:25, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I concur. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a site dedicated to cataloguing, promoting, or debunking fringe theories. There is someone out there with a fringe theory on virtually anything, and Wikipedia's usefulness would diminish if we tried to acknowledge all of them. Isomorphic 16:20, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• • I of course agree, and I would like to also say that the Salon link at the bottom recently added about the question is probably all that needs to be said on it, it is a well-done article in my assessment. --Fastfission 17:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• • Concerning the Olinto de Tretto use of E=mc2 before Einstein. This is not "really" true and certainly not accepted by mainstream science. All the history about Olinto de Pretto and the equivalence mass-energy comes after an italian book written in 1999 by italian Umberto Barocci. A link to the portrait of the book is given here: [6]. The Olinto de Pretto article can be found here [7] (only italian). The article speaks about kinetic energy of luminifereous ether and says that in order to be efficient medium for light to travel ether should vibrate at speeds faster than the light speed and so particles in the ether would have energy on the order of mv^2 with v greater than c. (The paper is one of those theory of everything where the author explains the heat of the Sun the orbits of the planets and the formation of the Solar system. Mass-equivalence is only read by Bartocci) This is by no means any thing related to the energy-mass equivalence. In Italy some media have acclamed Olinto de Pretto as author of the equation but scientist seem not to agree [8]. In fact, Olinto de Pretto is advocated by "extreme right" antisemitist groups to criticize Einstein as it can be seen here [9] and its main link together with a hundred more sites. Wricardoh 21:05, December 5, 2004 (UTC)

Moved from article

I removed the following unsourced recent addition from the article:

A more recent theory is that he suffered from Asperger's syndrome, a disorder related to autism.

Unless the author can provide external sources for this "theory" and show that it is not yet another fringe theory, this has no place in the article. Lupo 08:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How about take a look at the Asperger's syndrome page. There is certainly a reference there. I've seen it referenced in quite a few publications. AFAIK, any published theory does have a place in this article.

BBC News article

Thoric 14:27, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Suggest 34 possible wiki links and 13 possible backlinks for Albert Einstein.

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Albert_Einstein article:

• Can link popular culture: ...ame exceeded that of any other scientist in history, and in popular culture, ''Einstein'' has become synonymous with someone of very hi...
• Can link elementary school: ... was Jewish (and non-observant); Albert attended a Catholic elementary school and, at the insistence of his mother, was given [[violin]] ... (link to section)
• Can link slow learner: ...]]s and [[mechanical device]]s for fun, he was considered a slow learner, possibly due to [[dyslexia]], simple shyness, or the stron... (link to section)
• Can link liberal arts: ...f and then joined his family in Pavia.) His failure of the liberal arts portion of the ''[[Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule]]''... (link to section)
• Can link secondary school: ... sent by his family to [[Aarau]], [[Switzerland]] to finish secondary school, and received his diploma in [[1896]]. Einstein subsequent... (link to section)
• Can link modern physics: ...ear, he wrote four articles that provided the foundation of modern physics, without much [[scientific literature]] to refer to or many... (link to section)
• Can link Nobel prizes: ...hotoelectric effect]], and [[special relativity]]) deserved Nobel prizes. Only the photoelectric effect would win. This is something... (link to section)
• Can link The International: ...bilis Papers]]''" (from [[Latin]]: ''Extraordinary Year''). The International Union of Pure and Applied Physics ([[IUPAP]]) has planned t... (link to section)
• Can link empirical evidence: ...ory explanation decades after being observed—provided empirical evidence for the reality of [[atom]]s. It also lent credence to stat... (link to section)
• Can link physical systems: ...y, the assumption of [[infinite divisibility]] of energy in physical systems. Even after experiments showed that Einstein's equations fo... (link to section)
• Can link Einstein's equations: ...rgy in physical systems. Even after experiments showed that Einstein's equations for the photoelectric effect were accurate, his explanation... (link to section)
• Can link light waves: ...e the [[Michelson-Morley experiment]], which had shown that light waves could not be travelling through any [[luminiferous aether|m... (link to section)
• Can link atomic nuclei: ...uch phenomenal amounts of energy. By measuring the mass of atomic nuclei and dividing them by their atomic number, both of which are... (link to section)
• Can link atomic number: ...suring the mass of atomic nuclei and dividing them by their atomic number, both of which are easily measured, one can calculate the b... (link to section)
• Can link binding energy: ...r, both of which are easily measured, one can calculate the binding energy which is trapped in different atomic nuclei. This allows o... (link to section)
• Can link Berne, Switzerland: ...xaminer second class. In [[1908]], Einstein was licensed in Berne, Switzerland, as a teacher and lecturer (known as a ''Privatdozent''), w... (link to section)
• Can link nervous breakdown: ...nd had nursed him to health after he had suffered a partial nervous breakdown combined with a severe stomach ailment. There were no child... (link to section)
• Can link Kaiser Wilhelm Institute: ...eories. From [[1914]] to [[1933]] he served as director of Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics in Berlin, and it was during this time he recei... (link to section)
• Can link Academy of Sciences: ...Einstein presented a series of lectures before the Prussian Academy of Sciences in which he described his theory of [[general relativity]].... (link to section)
• Can link Newton's law: ...climaxed with his introduction of an equation that replaced Newton's law of gravity. This theory considered all observers to be equi... (link to section)
• Can link skepticism: ... with experimentation or observation, leading scientists to skepticism. But his equations enabled predictions and tests to be made... (link to section)
• Can link scientific community: ...There were, however, many who were still unconvinced in the scientific community. Their reasons varied, ranging from those who disagreed wit... (link to section)
• Can link absolute frame of reference: ...xperiments to those who simply thought that life without an absolute frame of reference was intolerable. In Einstein's view, many of them simply co... (link to section)
• Can link the real thing: ...rtainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any cl... (link to section)
• Can link refrigeration cycle: ...instein and Leó Szilárd. The patent covered a thermodynamic refrigeration cycle providing cooling with no moving parts, at a constant [[pre... (link to section)
• Can link space-time continuum: ...anics. Einstein assumed a structure of a four-dimensional space-time continuum expressed in axioms represented by five component vectors. ... (link to section)
• Can link subatomic particles: ... the energy density are particularly high. Einstein treated subatomic particles in this research as objects embedded in the unified field, ... (link to section)
• Can link unified field: ...tomic particles in this research as objects embedded in the unified field, influencing it and existing as an essential constituent of... (link to section)
• Can link variational principle: ...rched a way to delineate the equations to be derived from a variational principle.... (link to section)
• Can link forms of government: ...khoels]] and Einstein in 1943]] Einstein opposed tyrannical forms of government, and for this reason (and his Jewish background), he oppose... (link to section)
• Can link nationalism: ...o which Einstein bequeathed his papers. However he opposed nationalism and expressed skepticism about whether a Jewish nation-stat... (link to section)
• Can link nation-state: ...nationalism and expressed skepticism about whether a Jewish nation-state was the best solution. He may have originally imagined Jew... (link to section)
• Can link nuclear tests: ...Albert Schweitzer]] and [[Bertrand Russell]] fought against nuclear tests and bombs. With the [[Pugwash Conferences on Science and W... (link to section)
• Can link Australian film: ...ientist displaying a moment of humor. [[Yahoo Serious]], an Australian film maker, used the photo as an inspiration for the intentional... (link to section)

Additionally, there are some other articles which may be able to linked to this one (also known as "backlinks"):

• In Conscription, can backlink Albert Einstein: ... is just one more proof of its debilitating influence"'' by Albert Einstein, Sigmund Freud, H.G. Wells, Bertrand Russell and Thomas Man...
• In Dylan Thomas, can backlink Albert Einstein: .... He appears along with Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley and Albert Einstein all on probably the best known of all record sleeves, the B...
• In Avogadro's number, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...d to the [[equivalence of matter and energy]] discovered by Albert Einstein as part of the theory of [[special relativity]]. When an a...
• In Einstein on socialism, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einst.htm Why socialism?] - Albert Einstein, ''Monthly review, 1949-05'' ([http://www.amnh.org/exhibiti...
• In [[Jacqueline du Pr%E9#The significance of du Pré's position among cellists|Jacqueline du Pré]], can backlink Albert Einstein: ... interpretations. Let us not forget the words of the great Albert Einstein, "Great spirits have always been met with violent oppositio...
• In Diffuse sky radiation, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...ficult to observe because of the glare of the sun. In 1911 Albert Einstein published an article in which he showed that the real expla...
• In National Air and Space Museum, can backlink Albert Einstein: ... and other artifacts, there is an [[IMAX]] theater and the Albert Einstein [[Planetarium]]....
• In Fotini Markopoulou-Kalamara, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...ew Jersey. Previous postdoctoral positions were held at the Albert Einstein Institute, Imperial College London, and Penn State Universi...
• In List of hospitals in Pennsylvania, can backlink Albert Einstein: ... Hospital * [[Philadelphia, Pennsylvania|Philadelphia]] ** Albert Einstein Healthcare ...
• In Prolixity, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...ing upon context. == Concise language == By some accounts, Albert Einstein once said: "Make everything as simple as possible, but not ...
• In Raymond U. Lemieux, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...Canadian) (1990) * NSERC Gold Medal in Science ([[1991]]) * Albert Einstein World Award in Science ([[1992]])...
• In The Majestic Documents, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...ident said on the issue. Various important people's such as Albert Einstein and Ronald Regan's signatures have been found on these docu...
• In Last Son of Krypton, can backlink Albert Einstein: ...Luthor]] must join forces to retrieve a document written by Albert Einstein and stop the alien ruler. The story is considered a classic...

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Greatest Scientist of the 20th Century

I think the claim '...the greatest scientist of the 20th Century...' is hyperbole. My own view is that he can't have been this because (1) he was a theoretician and (2) how original a theoretician he was is very contentious, (see contributions from others on priority for many parts of the work claimed by him or attributed to him). All science is cumulative but for what it's worth my suggestion for a stand-out-figure on the basis of intellectual brilliance and practical achievement is Nikola Tesla. The progressive development of our material circumstances and welfare at such a marked rate in the last 100 years has its technological cause in the creation of devices which effectively generate, transmit and use energy and I'm not aware of any other single individual whose theoretical and practical achievements in this area even approach let alone exceed Tesla's. He also had some choice things to say about the work of others, including Einstein, on relativity, '...[a] magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king...., its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists...', (New York Times, July 11, 1935, p23, c.8), and 'I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties. It might as well be said that God has properties. He has not, but only attributes and these are of our own making. Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view.', (New York Hearald Tribune, September 11, 1932) and '...the relativity theory, by the way, is much older than its present proponents. It was advanced over 200 years ago by my illustrious countryman Boskovic, the great philospher, who not withstanding other and multifold obligations wrote a thousand volumes of excellent literature on a vast variety of subjects. Boskovic dealt with relativity, including the so-called time-space continuum...', (1936 unpublished interview, quoted in Anderson, L, ed. Nikola Tesla: Lecture Before the New York Academy of Sciences: The Streams of Lenard and Roentgen and Novel Apparatus for Their Production, April 6, 1897, reconstructed 1994).--Smark33021 00:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whether Tesla was great or not doesn't really matter here, the line in question is "who is widely regarded as the greatest scientist of the 20th century." Which is generally accurate -- he is widely regarded as such -- whether or not you (or I) agree with such an opinion. In the popular mind, and indeed in the mind of many scientists, he is portrayed as the exemplar figure for "scientist" even if in reality one could make several arguments to the contrary.--Fastfission 20:04, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Catagories

Could we please leave Einstein in the Category physicists? The fact that is is a subcategory of some other category is - to me - less important then the fact that the category of physicists will be imcomplete without him (and without the other Nobel prize winners). If someone is browsing through the physicists category, they might not think (or want) to look for and check out related categories. If we drop out all of the physicists who appear in other sub-categories, there will not be much left in the physicists category, which will make it far less useful. Michael L. Kaufman 02:12, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

I totally agree. I was looking for him in the list of physicists, and I couldn't understand why there was not one of the most know physicists in the world! Nova77 06:47, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

he was also (as sorry as I am to say this:) not Swiss but German (native of Ulm). The categorization should be changed accordingly. dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, but he did renounce his German citizenship and kept his Swiss citzenship. Is "German" supposed to mean his birth location or his "nationality"? I think such distinctions are somewhat petty anyway, though. I'm fairly sure that Einstein wouldn't have been liked to be listed as being any particular nationality, and certainly not German, but anyway, he's not here so I guess it's not up to him. --Fastfission 21:37, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If we list him under either national category, I'd list him under both. If I remember correctly, he didn't consider himself a German if he could help it. Isomorphic 18:25, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, if we're going to talk about citizenship, wasn't he also granted American citizenship? I'm fairly sure. Why not put him under all three catergories? And if we're going to argue about where he would've wanted us to place him, I have no input on the subject except this quote from him: "If relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss will call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German and the Germans will call me a Jew." Clearly, he realized that many nations would claim him as their own, and that his nationality was ambiguous. Just place him under Germany, where he was born, and don't try to predict what Einstein would want. We're not mentally equipped for that. Saraneth 17:25, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Tesla

Whether Tesla was great or not doesn't really matter here, the line in question is "who is widely regarded as the greatest scientist of the 20th century." Which is generally accurate -- he is widely regarded as such -- whether or not you (or I) agree with such an opinion. In the popular mind, and indeed in the mind of many scientists, he is portrayed as the exemplar figure for "scientist" even if in reality one could make several arguments to the contrary.--Fastfission 20:04, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Which son?

Near the end of the article, I read that one of Einstein's sons was hospitalized for schizophrenia and later died in an asylum, and the other moved to California. Unfortunately, the article never specifies which son is which. Could someone please clarify? Thanks a bunch! --Saraneth 03:15, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hans Albert Einstein did not die in an asylum and was an accomplished professor of hydraulic engineering at Berkeley until his death in 1973. So maybe he is the one who goes to California (he certainly didn't die in an asylum). --Fastfission 04:22, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

While copyediting I added some information to that effect. Thanks for the heads-up! Steven Luo 09:15, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

FBI File

Great article. But when did they create and keep the FBI file? Needs to be more specific, and obviously the fact he got citizenship should make some reference to it. :ChrisG 22:33, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The file itself looks like it began taking in submissions from at least 1932 when Einstein applied for a visa to the USA. But I haven't yet found anything more specific... (boy, it's one hateful little file) --Fastfission 22:51, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Plagiarism"

Though it's been discussed many times before, this is a place where our anonymous friend can justify trying to add three pages of bad history to a pretty good entry. All of the people cited hold fringe opinions, no mainstream historian finds their arguments plausible, none have published in peer-reviewed publications, almost all seem to lack understanding of the ways in which Einstein's formulations differed from those who he drew on (Lorentz, Poincaré, etc.), and most of them have no sense about using historical sources (i.e. use propaganda published by the Deutsche Physik physicists as reliable sources). This is not new, and Wikipedia should not be a dump for every looney accusation, especially ones which date back to the worst extremes of German nationalism during World War II. No Einstein scholar gives this sort of stuff a moment of attention, despite the fact that it would be quite a coup to be able to prove conclusively (or even indicate suggestively) that Einstein was a plagiarist. --Fastfission 01:48, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Recent reverts on edits about Einstein's alleged plagiarism

An anonymous editor is currently trying to edit the article with very POV additions. These additions allege that Einstein was a plagiarist, ripping off both the general and special theories of relativity. First, for those that do not know about this matter, these allegations have been long debunked and shown to be groundless. As evidence, I suggest anyone doubting this just do a google search under Bjerknes and Einstein. Bjerkness is a self-published author who wrote a book alleging Einstein was a plagiarist. I easily found this review of his book, on the first page of hits: [10], which decisively takes apart the book. Cecil recently debunked this on the Straight Dope. There are many more results you can find like this.

Basically, Bjerknes is a crank and his theory and "research" is highly crankish and of no merit. There is not one respectable historian that believes any of this. I challenge the anon to produce one recognized authority supporting his/her edits.

I also suspect that the anon is really Christopher Bjerknes. Bjerknes has been very energetic in promoting his crank views on usenet, in particular sci.physics.relativity. He is not at all interested in correcting his views or learning of his mistakes (the true sign of a crank). This anon seems to have the same affliction.

I think there may be a place for the mention of theories like Bjerknes's, but only a small place, and it must mention that it is a fringe theory that has been debunked by serious scholars.

It may be that we may have to get the page protected or ban the anon. --C S 02:06, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

Censorship redressed

My words have been snipped but not refuted. A. A. Logunov has cited Bjerknes's work in one of the finest physics journals in the world:

http://data.ufn.ru//ufn04/ufn04_6/Russian/r046e.pdf

http://xxx.arxiv.cornell.edu/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0405/0405075.pdf

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 02:21, January 18, 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, please sign your contributions to talk pages by writing four tildes like this ~~~~.

Secondly, the citation above (Cornell Uni) Cites Bjerknes's work solely for the purpose of disproving the theory that Hilbert copied the Gravitational Field Equations from Einstein. If you read to the end of the paper that you yourself cited, you will find the conclusion: "All is absolutely clear: both authors [Einstein and Hilbert] made everything to immortalize their names in the title of the Gravitational Field Equations. But General Relativity is Einstein's theory".

I think that concludes the argument. DJ Clayworth 02:33, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Bjerknes's work was cited in one of the finest physics journals in the world by A. A. Logunov, who was Vice President of the Russian Academy of Sciences. It was also cited in Zeitschrift fur Naturforschung:

http://www.physics.unr.edu/faculty/winterberg/Hilbert-Einstein.pdf

Since you do not deny those facts, you have no argument with what I wrote. If you want to trade quotes, here's one from Jurgen Renn:

"I had personally come to the conclusion that Einstein plagiarized Hilbert[.] [The] conclusion is almost unavoidable, that Einstein must have copied from Hilbert."

Renn was quoted by Curt Suplee in his newspaper article "Researchers Definitively Rule Einstein Did Not Plagiarize Relativity Theory" The Washington Post (November 14, 1997): A24. Since Logunov, Winterberg and Bjerknes have proven that Renn's revisionism is flawed, I agree with Renn that the conclusion is that Einstein was a plagiarist.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 21:24, January 24, 2005 (UTC)

We deny your "facts" and have plenty of "argument" with what you wrote. Just be aware of Wikipedia:Three revert rule. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Curps (talk • contribs) 21:32, January 24, 2005 (UTC)

How do I link the "Einstein" page to identify it as a disputed page which does not present a neutral point of view? What is the effect of doing so? If I so designate it, will others be able to remove the designation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 22:00, January 24, 2005 (UTC)

You can link it however you want, but others can remove the designation. Neutral does not mean "crank". You won't win on this one, sorry, Wikipedia is not a place for conspiracy theories passed off as being respected opinions. --Fastfission 22:15, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Numerous books by Jean Hladik, Anatoly Logunov, Jules Leveugle, Dennis Overbye, Christopher Jon Bjerknes, Andrea Gabor, etc. have in the last couple of decades discussed Einstein's plagiarism. I believe a section on Einstein's Plagiarism should be added to present a more complete history of Einstein, as is appropriate in an Encyclopedia article:

Einstein's Plagiarism

Numerous sources have directly or indirectly accused Albert Einstein of plagiarism. These charges range from Einstein's appropriation of the special theory of relativity through unattributed use of the Lorentz Transformation and Henri Poincare's "principle of relativity" in Einstein's paper 1905 Zur Elektrodynamik bewegter Koerper, to broader accusations of a career long pattern of plagiarism. The latter point of view is taken by Christopher Jon Bjerknes in his books Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist [11] and Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity.[12] Bjerknes points out that the special theory of relativity first appeared in the works of Woldemar Voigt, George Francis Fitzgerald, Joseph Larmor, Hendrik Antoon Lorentz and Henri Poincare.

Einstein was often accused of plagiarism. He did not answer his critics in a responsible fashion and so missed the opportunity to justify his behavior. Other books which provide insights into Einstein's unnamed sources include: E. Whittaker, A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity; A. A. Logunov, The Theory of Gravity and On the Articles by Henri Poincaré ON THE DYNAMICS OF THE ELECTRON; J. P. Auffray, Einstein et Poincare; J. Leveugle La Relativite, Poincare et Einstein, Planck, Hilbert: Histoire veridique de la Theorie de la Relativite; J. Hladik, Comment le jeune et ambitieux Einstein s'est approprie la Relativite restreinte de Poincare; J. Mehra, Einstein, Hilbert, and the Theory of Gravitation.

Jules Henri Poincare

Anatoly Alexeivich Logunov has proven the priority and the superiority of Poincare's formulation of the special theory of relativity over Einstein's later and less sophisticated work. [13] Poincare pioneered the concept of synchronizing clocks with light signals in his articles and lectures La Mesure du Temps (1898), La Theorie de Lorentz at le Principe de Reaction (1900) and The Principles of Mathematical Physics (1904). Einstein copied this method without giving Poincare credit for the innovation. Poincare stated the principle of relativity in 1895, and in 1905 stated the group properties of the Lorentz Transformation. It was Poincare, not Einstein, who introduced four-dimensional space-time into the theory of relativity. At first, Einstein did not approve of the idea. Einstein learned the formula E mc^2 from Poincare's 1900 paper.

The General Theory of Relativity

Tilman Sauer, [14] Bjerknes,[15] Logunov [16] and Friedwardt Winterberg [17] have shown that David Hilbert derived the generally covariant field equations of gravitation in the general theory of relativity before Einstein. Bjerknes and Winterberg claim that Paul Gerber published the same formula for the perihelion motion of Mercury in 1898, that Einstein published in 1915 without an attribution. Bjerknes also points out that Johann Goerg von Soldner predicted that starlight grazing the limb of the Sun would be deflected by the gravitational field of the Sun, in 1801, more than one hundred years before Einstein. D. E. Burlankov has shown that Niels Bjorn and Sophus Lie derived many of the fundamental formulas of the general theory of relativity years before Einstein. [18]

Mileva Maric

Desanka Trbuhovic-Gjuric (Im Schatten Albert Einsteins), Evan Harris Walker (Physics Today 42 9, 11 (February, 1989); Physics Today 44 122-124 (February, 1991).), Margarete Maurer [19], Senta Troemel Ploetz (Women's Studies International Forum Volume 13, Number 5, (1990), pp. 415-432; Index on Censorship 19 33-36 (October, 1990).), Christopher Jon Bjerknes [20], and others [21] believe that Einstein's first wife, Mileva Maric (aka Marity), collaborated with him on his 1905 papers, or wrote them herself. Abram Joffe (Uspekhi fizicheskikh nauk 57 187 (1955)), who had seen the original manuscripts, stated that the author of these papers was "Einstein-Marity" and Mileva Maric used this name, but Albert Einstein did not. Daniil Semenovich Danin (Neizbezhnost strannogo mira (1962), p. 57) claimed that the papers were signed "Einstein-Marity" or "Einstein-Maric". Albert wrote to Mileva and asked her to collaborate with him, in the context of Lorentz's theory, which they copied in 1905. He wrote to her about "our work on relative motion".

Einstein's "Miracle Year"

Einstein's so-called "miracle year" is not so miraculous as one would think from looking at his papers, which lacked adequate references. The special theory of relativity was first published by Lorentz and Poincare, and Poincare created the modern four-dimensional form of the theory before Einstein. The theory of the photo-electric effect draws a great deal from Newton, Planck, Wien, and others. The theory of Brownian motion was anticipated by Robert Brown, Gouy, Nernst, Smoluchowski, Sutherland and Bachelier.

I would like to discuss this issue in a civil and responsible fashion. How do I complain when others fail to act in civil manner?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 22:30, January 24, 2005 (UTC)

I am new to this and would like to report the fact that an NPOV link was removed while a discussion was taking place. How do I do so? I understand that Wikipedia requests that I not respond to insulting messages, so I will not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 23:17, January 24, 2005 (UTC)

I again ask if someone would be so kind as to inform me as to how I can lodge a complaint? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 23:33, January 24, 2005 (UTC)

You can read Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. You should also read the articles in Category:Wikipedia official policy, so that among other things you don't violate the three-revert rule again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Curps (talk • contribs) 23:50, January 24, 2005 (UTC)

A NPOV link can be removed if it is just one anonymous person against a dozen editors. If you don't plan to actually discuss what people have written about your additions, you will get nowhere on this. I suggest you give up on Wikipedia and turn to alternative outlets for your theories. --Fastfission 23:23, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I should like to point out that Friedwardt Winterberg is a famous physicist who has published hundreds of articles in physics journals. He received his PhD under Nobel Prize laureate Werner Heisenberg. Professor Logunov is one of the most respected physicists in the world and was Vice President of the Russian Academy of Sciences and is today Director of the Institute for High Energy Physics. Jean Hladik has published numerous books on Einstein and relativity and is also highly regarded. Dennis Overbye is a science editor at the New York Times. Whittaker's book are considered masterpieces and are among the most highly respected histories of science ever written. Bjerknes and his work have been favorably cited in the finest physics journals in the world. The documentary Einstein's Wife airs on the Public Broadcasting Network in the United States, which is highly regarded. This is not the place to defend against all the personal attacks made in this discussion, but let it suffice to show that they are false. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 17:08, January 25, 2005 (UTC)

You cite names but never demonstrate how they support your theories. For example, Dennis Overbye does NOT support them. He comes to the conclusion that Einstein's wife provided intellectual and emotional support in the form of giving him a conversational and life partner but he never concludes that Einstein took the essential ideas of relativity from her or plagiarized her or anything of that sort. He has written a book called Einstein in Love. Perhaps you should read it. --C S 03:17, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

It is typical of Plautus to quote seemingly impressive references by respected mainstream scientists, or links to mainstream websites, with the claim that these support his opinions. Except when you actually click on the external link or look up the reference, there's nothing there at all to support his opinions. -- Curps 03:36, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I refer you to pages 296 and 297 of Overbye's "Einstein in Love, A Scientific Romance" with regard to Einstein's use of Kretschmann's ideas. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 04:21, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

And what is your assertion? I presume you have one to refute what I wrote above about Overbye. Unless these pages contain a statement that Kretschmann's work was plagiarized by Einstein, your reference is pointless. --C S 09:13, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

I will have to watch the documentary again to ascertain for certain whether or not Overbye modified his views in it. If he did, then he would be one of those supporting my claim with regard to Mileva. If not, he would not. I have not relied on him with regard to my claims about Mileva. If you think he should be added to the list of those with a different view on this point, then we can add his name, but it would be wise to watch the documentary again. My reference to Overbye regarded Kretschmann, and Overbye shows that Einstein plagiarized Kretschmann's ideas. As you suggested to me, I suggest you read Overbye's book. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 12:37, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

There's no need to make a list of those that disagree with your views, because that list is exponentially longer than the list that agrees with even some of your views. That is what "mainstream" and "fringe" is all about. You have claimed there's evidence on certain pages of Einstein's plagiarism. Quote the relevant passage and explain how it shows Einstein plagiarized. --C S 13:40, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

"Kretschmann's paper, which appeared in the Annalen der Physik on December 21, 1915, apparently struck a chord with Einstein. By now, of course, the hole argument was an embarrassment, and he was eager for an answer. Five days later Albert wrote back to Ehrenfest, who had been pestering him about the hole problem, with an answer almost identical to Kretschmann's. Space-time points, he said, gain their identity not from coordinates but from what happens at them. The phrase he used was space-time coincidences.'40

'The physically real in the world of events (in contrast to that which is dependent upon the choice of a reference system) consists in spatiotemporal coincidences . . . and in nothing else!' he told Ehrenfest. Reality, he repeated to Besso, was nothing less than the sum of such point coincidences, where, say, the tracks of two electrons or a light ray and a photographic grain crossed.41

In his magnum opus on the new general relativity theory early in March 1916, Albert paralleled Kretschmann almost word for word: 'All our space-time verifications invariably amount to a determination of space-time coincidences. . . . Moreover, the results of our measurings are nothing but verifications of meetings of the material points of our measuring instruments with other material points, coincidences between the hands of a clock and points on the clock dial, and observed point-events happening at the same place at the same time.'42"

Quoted from Dennis Overbye "Einstein in Love: A Scientific Romance" (Viking, 2001): 296-297.

Note "40" Letter from A. Einstein to P. Ehrenfest of December 26, 1915, The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Volume 8, Document 173 (Princeton University Press, 1998): 167.

Note "41" Letter from A. Einstein to M. Besso of January 3, 1916, from John Stachel's contribution "Einstein and the Rigidly Rotating Disk" to D. Howard and J. Stachel Editors, Einstein and the History of General Relativity, Volume 1, (Birkhauser 1989). The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Volume 8, Document 178, (Princeton University Press, 1996): 172.

Note "42" A. Einstein "Die Grundlagen der allgemeinen Relativitatstheorie" Annalen der Physik 49 (1916): 769-822; as reproduced and translated to English in The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Volume 6, Document 30, (Princeton University Press, 1996): 153.

Einstein, immediately after Kretschmann's work appeared, began reiterating it without mentioning Kretschmann.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 17:05, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

Strangely enough, I don't see any plagiarism here. Even Overbye is reluctant to take the final step and say Einstein plagiarized Kretschmann. In fact, Overbye continues by saying, on page 298, "Curiously, the normally generous Albert never mentioned Kretschmann's paper as the source of his inspiration about space-time coincidences." I wonder why Overbye just can't see the light. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that on page 295 (right before the pages you cite) Overbye mentions that Paul Hertz had earlier suggested basically the same idea to Einstein? Perhaps when several people arrive at the same idea, even if one published first, then nobody really cares if later that first publisher is not cited? Perhaps this would explain why the same journal that published Kretschmann's paper later published Einstein's paper which contained a portion that "paralleled Kretschmann" even without a reference to Kretschmann? --C S 19:41, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

Where is it that Einstein cites Hertz or Kretschmann? The word "plagiarism" has no magical properties that place it above all other words. Overbye demonstrated Einstein's plagiarism. You try to excuse it by calling plagiarism, not-plagiarism, and then patronize Overbye as you have been trying to patronize me. I note that you left off the notation Overbye attached to his sentence "Curiously, the normally generous Albert never mentioned Kretschmann's paper as the source of his inspiration about space-time coincidences." Why didn't you quote the footnote on the same page referenced to this sentence with an asterisk, which is the only notation on the page? Quoting from Dennis Overbye "Einstein in Love: A Scientific Romance" (Viking, 2001): 298, "The close timing of Kretschmann's paper and Albert's mention of 'space-time coincidences' to Ehrenfest led Howard and Norton to conclude that Albert had appropriated Kretschmann's idea." The note then goes on to explain why. In case you don't realize it, "appropriated" in this context means plagiarized. I once again ask you to conduct yourself in a courteous and responsible fashion and offer revisions to my proposal. If you refuse, I suggest we enter arbitration. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 03:26, January 27, 2005 (UTC)

In addition, Winterberg has explicitly said his analysis cannot prove Einstein copied from Hilbert [22]: (begin quote from Register article) "My analysis of Hilbert's mutilated proofs therefore cannot prove that Einstein copied from Hilbert," he says. "It proves less, which is that it cannot be proved that Einstein could not have copied from Hilbert. But it proves that Hilbert had not copied from Einstein, as it has been insinuated following the paper by Corry, Renn and Stachel." Winterberg concludes that three people should be given credit for developing the general theory of relativity: Einstein, for recognising the shape of the problem, Grossmann for his insight that the contracted Riemann tensor was key to solving the problem, and Hilbert for completing the gravitational field theory equations. (end quote) When I have time I will investigate these other names you have dropped, but I suspect they will not come through for you as you claim. --C S 03:17, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

I suspect his views will change. Time will tell. Since Einstein had seen Hilbert's manuscript before changing his theory, Einstein must have copied Hilbert's ideas. Bjerknes proves this in many ways in his book "Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity." We have as proof: Einstein's letter to Hilbert from November 18, 1915, stating that he had seen Hilbert's manuscript. Einstein's paper on the perihelion motion of Mercury which was submitted November 18, 1915 and which had incorrect gravitational field equations. Einstein's first footnote in that paper. The comments published on page 803 of the journal that published Einstein's paper submitted November 18, 1915. Hilbert's declarations of his priority. Einstein's acknowledgements of Hilbert's priority. The general acceptance by Hilbert's and Einstein's peers that Hilbert had derived the equations before Einstein. Jurgen Renn was right when he said, without his revisionism, the proper conclusion is that Einstein plagiarized Hilbert's work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 04:21, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

As for Einstein's Wife on PBS, they've aired speculative documentaries before, but I agree that if this documentary supported your claims it would indeed be a valid source. Unfortunately for you, this documentary does not conclude that Einstein stole his wife's work; it only raises the possibility and investigates somewhat the idea that Mileva Maric colloborated with her husband. One thing Bjerknes (and you) never explains is how Einstein can have both plagiarized all these famous men and at the same time have stolen the same ideas from his wife. That's a glaring contradiction in your theory. --C S 03:17, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you look at

http://home.comcast.net/~xtxinc/mileva.htm

which presents some of the evidence. If the Einsteins were partners, and Mileva approved of the publication of the papers with inadequate references, then both were plagiarists. If Mileva objected to the plagiarism and asked that her name not appear on the published paper, then Albert was the only plagiarist and he plagiarized the already plagiarized work. In other words, Albert may have taken credit for the plagiarized paper, which Mileva may have written or coauthored. That does not make the paper original, but it made Albert famous while Mileva suffered. I do not see a contradiction and I think Bjerknes is consistent. If person X steals or borrows a car from person Y and then person Z steals the same car from X and Y, Z is a thief.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 04:21, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

The documentary supports my claims by showing interviews with Evan Harris Walker, Senta Troemel-Ploetz and others who believe that Albert took credit for Mileva's work. Walker has also published articles in Physics Today, which state that Albert took credit for Mileva's work. John Stachel was interviewed in the documentary and published a criticism of Walker's article and he believes that Mileva was just a sounding board for Albert and if you want to mention that we can add it. The fact that the issue is worthy of a section in a encyclopedia article is demonstrated by Women in World History: A Biographical Encyclopedia, Volume 5, "Einstein-Maric, Mileva" (Yorkin Publications, 2000): 77-81, which is an encyclopedia that has addressed the issue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 08:00, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

I said you contradicted yourself because you cite this PBS documentary; it does seem as though Bjerknes is consistent with respect to this issue. This documentary does not support your claim. These people you cite are not saying that Mileva was a co-plagiarist or plagiarized others and had her plagiaristic work stolen by Einstein. They are suggesting the possibility that Einstein stole his wife's original work on relativity, etc. You apparently don't see anything contradictory about propping up your idea that Mileva was a (co)plagiarist with assertions by people who believe that Mileva was not a plagiarist. But I do and I bet I'm not alone. One hallmark of your evidence thus far is that you frequently will cite a part of someone's work to support your case when the rest of that person's work refutes it. By this piecemeal fashion, you have generated quite a bit of "evidence". But I'm far from convinced by that kind of "evidence".

At this point what you're doing is more original research (which is not allowed on Wikipedia) rather than just citing someone who expresses your views. FastFission is correct in asserting that your researched material is not appropriate for Wikipedia. It's one thing to have some appropriate references to fringe theories and researchers but another (unacceptable) thing to do your own research and try to argue your ideas in an encylopedia article. In particular, you should think over why your reverted edits were reverted and what contributions are appropriate with respect to these issues you've raised.

C S 09:08, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

There are at least two historical issues involved and it is proper for me to rely upon different experts with regard to different issues. One of the issues is the question of whether or not Albert took credit for Mileva's work. I claim that he did and the PBS documentary supports that claim. Another issue is whether or not the work was plagiarized from another source. It is perfectly consistent and appropriate for me to rely upon other experts to answer that separate and distinct question. In the example of the stolen car, I might rely upon one set of experts to determine if Z's fingerprints were found on it, and another to determine if the engine was original to the car or had been replaced. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 12:37, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

Your analogy doesn't fit the situation. If indeed we were discussing a matter where there was a "smoking gun", e.g. fingerprints, same engine, etc., real facts that are undisputable, it would be a good analogy. But we are discussing a situation where you are citing expert opinions (assuming these people are qualifed). These kinds of opinions are not a matter of "here are the fingerprints and this is what I think", rather it is "here are some ambiguous data, I interpret them this way and this way". You only pick the part of the conclusion you like because the expert disagrees with you. Here's your analogy modified to fit the situation: expert A says he saw X steal the car. It is his expert opinion that it is so. As part of his opinion he states that not only did X steal the car, X was accompanied by Y who assisted. Another expert B gives her opinion: X was alone and did not steal the car, but merely walked by. You come along and cite A to demonstrate that X stole the car, and then cite B to demonstrate that X was alone. But the inconsistency here is that if these are indeed experts that you trust, what led you to discard part of their analyses and accept other parts?

In any case, you still don't understand how pointless this is. You're not going to get the page changed in the way you wanted with your edits. You still don't seem to understand why and you still don't seem to understand that at best that there will only be references to figures like Bjerknes's opinions (not yours) and that these references will point out that this is a fringe view. All this discussion has done nothing but demonstrate to everyone else that you're engaging in original research.

C S 13:40, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

There is no inconsistency with accepting point 1 made by expert A when the facts indicate that A is correct on point one, and not accepting point 2 made by expert A when the facts indicate that A is incorrect on point two. For example, consider the fact that Overbye cited Renn, Stachel and Corry's paper on Hilbert and Einstein and obviously Overbye was wrong in his conclusions on this point, but that does not mean that everything Overbye ever wrote must be discarded. I gave you a link to some of the facts which lead me to accept the conclusion that Albert took credit for Mileva's work. I gave you a link which led me to accept the conclusion that Poincare published the special theory of relativity before the Einsteins, that they never gave him adequate credit, and that Poincare's theory was superior to theirs. I see no conflict in agreeing with Overbye's book on the point of Kretschmann and disagreeing with it about Mileva Maric. I have proven to you that Albert's plagiarism of Mileva's work is a widely held view that has been published and discussed in mainstream venues. That is what is required for the view to appear in an encyclopedia and I have proven to you that the issue has indeed been published in a mainstream encyclopedia. I have not said that I want the page changed to my specifications without edits. On the contrary I have welcomed discussion and patiently and politely responded to it. I have invited you to offer changes and the invitation is still open. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 17:14, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

You've proven no such things. You've misused quotes and taken things out of context to support a wide mesh of nonsense. You are obviously a POV pusher and you're not going to get your way no matter how much you whine about censorship and have no seeming understanding of what is "mainstream" and what is not. Go find some alternative place to push your crackpot theories, it'll be a better use of your time than hassling us on here. --Fastfission 18:28, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that you are led to believe things by very scanty evidence as I've repeatedly seen now. You also have a problem with understanding the differences between plagiarism and improper attribution, among other things. Even if Lagunov is correct that Poincare basically had the special theory of relativity published before Einstein, and even if Einstein was very familiar with Poincare's work, you cannot conclude plagiarism. You can only conclude improper attribution. It's laughable that you think that the obscure Einstein could somehow plagiarize the incredibly famous and respected Poincare and not only get away with it but reap great fame. The proper conclusion is that Einstein made contributions considered important enough that he garnered much credit from his peers. Even Lagunov admits in his book that Einstein made important contributions to special relativity; he just thinks that Poincare's were more important.

You have not proven what you say: that thinking Einstein plagiarized his wife's work is a "widely held view". It did appear as you say, in the Women in World History: a biographical encyclopedia. But that is hardly a mainstream source. In fact, when I went to find it, I found it had the same call number range with all these books on feminist revisionist history. And when I read the entry on Einstein-Maric, I found it was absurdly biased and clearly biased toward trying to promote Einstein-Maric as a victim. The evidence it gave for her alleged collaboration was based entirely on out of context quotes and an innuendo that because Einstein's greatest work was done when he was young and still married to Einstein-Maric, she obviously did his math for him.

My patience has run out. You continually show ignorance of Wikipedia policy and are unable to see the obvious errors in your thinking. I only regret I've spent this much time on this matter, but hopefully it has benefitted the Wikipedia community in some way.

C S 19:41, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

I have attempted to discuss the matter in a civil fashion with you. Wikipedia policy asks you to suggest revisions to my proposal and you have not done so. I have shown you numerous mainstream accounts that merit an entry into the Wikipedia Einstein page and you have redefined mainstream as completely agrees with Chan-Ho. You have repeatedly misrepresented what I have clearly stated. I have repeatedly shown that your logic is flawed. If you are not out to simply censor valid entries into the encyclopedia, then suggest changes. Otherwise, since my good faith efforts have not succeeded in persuading you to follow Wikipedia policy, I suggest it is time for arbitration. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 20:14, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

One important and valuable point has been raised by this discussion however. There should be some portion of the article devoted to the Hilbert-Einstein controversy. It is indeed a controversy (although perhaps not a great one), but I haven't seen any definitive evidence either way. It should perhaps have its own page as neither the Einstein nor Hilbert articles seem a fitting place for such material. --C S 03:17, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you read "Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity." There is much more evidence presented there than in the journal articles. -- 24.15.188.92 04:21, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You keep mentioning Logunov as if he supports your theory. But he does not, as has been pointed out by DJ Clayworth. Indeed, in the paper you cite by Logunov (and two coauthors), it is said: "According to the standard point of view Einstein and Hilbert independently of each other and in different ways, discovered the gravitational field equations." The emphasis is mine and I did it to emphasize that Logunov and coauthors are first off admitting that this is the standard view (cf my comment right above where I was unsure what the consensus over the Hilbert-Einstein situation was).

Next, they actually conclude that the standard view is indeed correct! From the conclusion of their paper:"The analysis, undertaken in Sections 1 and 2, shows that Einstein and Hilbert inependently [sic] discovered the gravitational field equations. Their pathways were different but they led exactly to the same result. Nobody "nostrified" the other...All is absolutely clear: both authors made everything to immortalize their names in the title of the gravitational field equations. (their emphasis) But general relativity is Einstein's theory."

So this famous man you cite in fact disputes plagiarism by both Einstein and Hilbert! Not only that, he cites Bjerknes only to reference some portions of some historical documents. The citation not only proves nothing, but given the content of the paper is clearly only meant to reference these documents and not meant to say the authors agreed with Bjerknes. DJ Clayworth has basically pointed this out, but you seem incapable of understanding these points. You can keep citing famous people whose work do not support your theory as support for your theory, but you're only increasing your reputation of crankhood. All you've proven thus far is that Bjerknes is indeed very much alone in claiming what he does and that there is some controversy over the Hilbert-Einstein business but that the consensus is that Hilbert and Einstein are each given credit. --C S 03:57, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

Logunov, and the other authors thank Bjerknes for helpful discussion in addition to citing his book for the publication of the proofs (I believe the citation in the first instance is more than just a reference to the publication of the proofs but also refers to the substantial commentary on the missing section found in Bjerknes's book "Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity." Bjerknes writes about a 2 1/2 page explanation where the missing section is indicated). I understand what Logunov has said, and my reference to his paper was to the fact that he has proven that Renn, Stachel and Corry's revisionism is incorrect. Do you dispute that Logunov has refuted their revisionism? I disagree with Logunov, et al's assertion that Einstein could not have copied from Hilbert, and their assertion simply does not agree with the facts. There most certainly has been a priority dispute, so I disagree with them on that point, also. I have also cited Logunov's book on Poincare in which he proves that Poincare published the special theory of relativity before Einstein. Do you disagree with my conclusion that that is what Logunov has said? Please understand that one aspect of plagiarism is the fact that one person publishes the work before another and when I say that Logunov has discussed Einstein's plagiarism I mean that Logunov has discussed the fact that Poincare anticipated Einstein and that Einstein failed to give Poincare due credit. Do you believe I am mistaken on that point? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 05:06, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

The point you're mistaken on is whether or not this belongs on an encyclopedia, which is all that matters here. Your own confusion about historical issues, usage of sources, and the history of physics has no bearing on the fact that this stuff doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. The fact that you are deliberately lumping in people who you know don't share your conclusions only further points out your intellectual dishonesty. --Fastfission 05:43, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Fastfission has twice modified his/her original post to make it increasingly insulting. Wikipedia asks that I not respond to insulting posts, so I will not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.188.92 (talk • contribs) 05:50, January 26, 2005 (UTC)

If saying that you are intellectually dishonest is "increasingly insulting" then I'm happy to insult you, you poor little victim, you. --Fastfission 18:30, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Bjerknes is self-published fringe which is not accepted by any established historians (whom he believes, if I recall, are all on the pro-Einstein dole). Winterberg is an established physicist but not a historian (and is fairly fringe himself, with a lot of ties to the LaRouche cult). These sorts of fringe don't belong in an article on Albert Einstein. If it belongs anywhere on Wikipedia, it belongs in an article specifically on this question (along the lines of Abraham Lincoln's sexuality and Apollo moon landing hoax accusations). In any event, it cannot be done in a way which appears that this is a mainstream view ("Numerous people" != three fringe authors and the wackos who follow them). --Fastfission 02:46, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a website dedicated to expounding, promoting, cataloguing, or debunking fringe theories. Rather, it is a compilation of generally-accepted information. If every article had to devote space to any existing fringe theories regarding its subject, we would greatly decrease our usefulness as an encyclopedia. Isomorphic 23:06, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Getting into a revert war is not a civil and responsible fashion, so you're not quite in a position to start talking about your moral superiority yet. And it's clear you have little discussion in mind when your first urge is to "complain." There is an entire page here now about why people don't want to include this. I'll repeat it for the sake of civility:

• Your sources are fringe figures discredited by mainstream scientists and historians.
• Your writing takes for granted their truth and shows no evidence of the fact that the "facts" and opinions you cite are not respected by mainstream scientists and historians.
• These sections add undue emphasis to what is considered a fringe and unscholarly theory.

As I wrote above, an encyclopedia entry on a figure should not have a fourth of it devoted to a fringe theory. It would be akin to having half of the article on nuclear weapons be devoted to a theory about how they were potentially powered by energy from God's big toe. If the latter crazy theory were popular enough to warrent attention from popular society, so that when one went to an article on nuclear weapons you would expect the Big Toe of God theory to be at least acknowledged, then it could have a separate page created for it (such as Abraham Lincoln's sexuality and Apollo moon landing hoax accusations) so that it would not mar up the main article with a fringe discussion.

Hopefully that will make some of these objections a little more clear. I expect you will discuss this in a civil manner now, right? --Fastfission 23:05, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Feb 2005 – Aug 2005

einstein and education.

I think it would be good to include in the opening definition the fact that einstein left school with no formal qualifications other than a basic diploma and later a teaching diploma that was 'granted' to him by the same highschool.

the mention of his 'graduation' is misleading, It is I believe, an american term for completing school, In europe it signifies the gaining of a degree, something that einstein did not do, except for perhaps honourary degrees later in life. Even his doctorate was granted once his unconventional genious was recognised, after many years of submitting papers as a totaly unqualified author, .

I mention this because Einstein is often cited as a brilliant man worth emulating, i which case the highly unconventional nature of his brilliance should be clear, if only to encourage other non-academic brilliance that may be out there.

DavidP 19:41, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Autodidactic?

Why?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hexii (talk • contribs) 15:59, March 6, 2005 (UTC)

Can't see any reason for this classification either, so I'm removing it. --Susurrus 23:37, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I miss a part of this article

including: categories, interwiki, external links. I think the article is too long.--Emes 16:46, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Einstein bros. bagel company?

Is this bagel company anywhere notable enough to be listed at the top of an article about Albert Einstein? It seems a little silly to me. --Fastfission 19:12, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nevermind, I changed it to a more appropriate disambig link. --Fastfission 19:16, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Infobox

Can we remove the hideous infobox? For one thing it's redundant; for another, why is that quote more representative than any other and who gets to choose it? - Fredrik | talk 19:33, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Support. I agree for the reasons you've stated. There's no need for it, it doesn't really add anything except by killing some of the whitespace, and the quote seems arbitrary. --Fastfission 03:27, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • I removed it but ChristopherWillis added it back. I have removed it again. Jooler 08:28, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Though I don't like it, I think we ought to try and talk about it before just removing and reverting. --Fastfission 13:12, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • Was it talked about before adding it? Jooler 13:13, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
        • Does it really matter? --Fastfission 07:25, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Support Sebastian 01:56, 2005 Mar 21 (UTC)

Began to admire the church

I came across this. Is it true? If so, I think it should be mentioned in the religion part of this article.

"Pius XII’s public efforts moved Albert Einstein to write to TIME magazine in 1940 that, in face of the Nazi barbarism, "only the Church remained standing to halt the progress of Hitler's campaigns to do away with truth. In the past I never felt any interest for the Church, but now I feel great love and admiration for her, as the Church was the only one with the courage and tenacity to support intellectual truth and moral freedom. I must admit that what I once despised, I now praise unconditionally."

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by IanGM (talk • contribs) 01:39, March 14, 2005 (UTC)

• http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html - seems to apply more to the pope's article - not about Einstein's religious views, more about but his views about the role of churches--JimWae 02:01, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)

This would be a remarkable quote indeed. However, it sounds unlikely for three reasons: (1) I am not aware of any quote according to which E. "despised" the Church before 1940. That's a term he reserved for nationalism, racism and the military. (2) "the church was the only one" is an incoplete statement. The only what? This does not sound like the statement of someone who thinks deeply about what he says. Could be just a bad translation, though. (2) "unconditionally" sounds unusual for someone who usually did qualify his statements, given that "[t]here was little in the way of organized resistance to the Nazis' anti-Semitic policies by any Christian group during the 1930s in Germany"* (That was the original quote. I am toning it down there because there was some organized opposition.) and that there clearly was at least some collusion between official parts of the Church with the Nazi regime. Sebastian 04:11, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)

I can look it up, if people are interested (it wouldn't be that difficult). That would only confirm that TIME published it, not whether the quote itself was true, of course.--Fastfission 05:36, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Evidence that Einstein didn't fail math?

Is there any evidence that Einstein didn't fail that math class? I've seen a quote by a supposed teacher of Einstein (one Karl Arbeiter) that states that Einstein failed a class in grade school. So far, I've not been able to find the source for that, but it is apparently quoted on academic web pages, as well. At least that needs a link to a debunking website. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.131.227.3 (talk • contribs) 12:48, March 16, 2005 (UTC)

Have a look at this: http://leiwen.tripod.com/diplo.gif it's the diploma of Einstein when he finished his school in Switzerland. Well, if the scanned picture is not a fraud, then he had he 6 in all mathematical branches, 6 in physics and 5 in chemistry. The tricky thing is: In Germany 1 is best and 6 is very bad. But in Switzerland, it's exactly the other way round, 6 ist best and 1 is very bad! I personaly see this as one source of the beleive that Einstein was a bad student at school. But in reality, he was a very good one. So failing a class in math and have these grades afterwards? I doubt that.

cheers

Thom

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.129.206.71 (talk • contribs) 08:35, April 6, 2005 (UTC)

I remember reading/hearing that the "Einstein flunked math" meme came from a confusion about the grading system. So that sounds right. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure it is true that he didn't consider himself a particularly good mathematician. Isomorphic 05:35, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

shure, there is this phrase: "don't worry about your dificulties in mathematics. can assure you, that mine are still greater." but that is his personal opinion about himself. it's not really objective isn't it? he had problems to put his ideas of physics into mathematical formulations and thus to check whether they are correct. that is not an easy task! and it's on a completely different level than the stuff you learn in school. i think a lot of people want to believe that he flunked math because he is seen as the super genius by many and this would bring him a little closer to "normal mortals" like us :-)

cheers, thom

{unsigned2|16:47, April 12, 2005|129.129.206.71}}

Why is he on German-Americans and German people lists

He wasn't German, so why is he on these lists? I think it should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.141.214.87 (talk • contribs) 04:36, April 14, 2005 (UTC)

• Article says he was born in Germany, no?
  • Just because hes born somewhere doesnt make him that. I could take a woman to Bhutan and make her have a child there, it doesn't make the child Bhutanese. He dodged military service and fled to Switzerland also, not something a German would do. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.141.214.87 (talk • contribs) 05:59, April 14, 2005 (UTC)
• No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy
  • Your statement that no true Scotsman is a logical fallacy is a fallacy, embodied logical fallacies can be Scotsmen too!;) —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 14:04, 2005 Apr 15 (UTC)
• If he lived in Germany his first 16 years or so, then "in 1914, just before the start of World War I, Einstein settled in Berlin as professor at the local university and became a member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences... and took German citizenship" there's every good reason to say he was German. -- and Swiss, and American
• You know the difference between Nazis & Germans? Einstein was friends with Germans (such as Albert Schweizer) - so saying he hated Germans his whole life is not only unencyclopedic, but false.
• Do you live under a bridge & keep lots of fishing lure? --JimWae 06:14, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)

He hated Germans as a whole, he may have got along with individual ones but, as a whole he detested them. Plus, Jews can't be Germans, according to many Jews and Germans alike. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.141.214.87 (talk • contribs) 00:34, April 15, 2005 (UTC)

• • Don't you have something better to do than troll online encyclopedias? --Fastfission 00:41, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Einstein was German
• he didn't hate all Germans and
• there are many german Jews (even though many ware killed 60 years ago).

--MartinS 16:18, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

He was German, plain and simple. The only people who dont qualify him as German seem to be people like Hitler. Do you like Hitler? I know I don't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Canaduh (talk • contribs) 20:51, April 16, 2005 (UTC)

Einstein was born in bred in Germany until he was 16 years old. That makes him clearly a German, regardless whether he hated Germans. Andries 10:46, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• • Well, yes and no. The question is whether German refers to a nationality or something more transient, like an "ethinicity". If the former, it should be noted that he gave up his German citizenship very deliberately at one point, and spent most of his life not being a German. If the latter, we can problematize the notion of what it means to be "German" at all. Generally I believe Wikipedia policy is to go with self-identification, and I'm not sure Einstein would have ever identified himself along with any single country. The question is: should we bother to include a national identification at all? Is it helpful? Is it meaningful? Is it necessary? I'm very suspicious of the "we claim him" game when it comes to scientists, and I'm halfway sympathetic to the statement that since the German government officially decried him and his work (indeed, led an organized campaign against him), Einstein might have the right to decry his association with them back, and that would be something we ought to respect. (EB puts him as German-American, though, just as a note) --Fastfission 14:19, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hes not German, repeat, not German, in any way shape or form. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.141.214.87 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

He was born in Germany, a German citizen, son of German citizens. What more does it take? Jayjg ^(talk) 22:23, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

How about being a German? That usually helps. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.235.228.86 (talk • contribs) 04:49, June 2, 2005 (UTC)

What makes someone "a German"? Jayjg ^(talk) 15:09, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not including a national identification makes sense. The work he is known for (and that's why he has his place in an encyclopedia) was published long before he became an American. So, emphasizing American nationality seems inadequate. Other people have mentioned reasons why emphasizing German nationality would be inadequate, too. So, let's just drop that information from the introduction. Anyone who really needs to know more about his nationality can read the rest of the article. Nationality is one of the most irrelevant pieces of information anyways. --171.64.204.98 22:25, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

As we're apparently dealing with someone who contends that Jews cannot be German, I don't think there can be any basis for agreement here. Life is too short. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:30, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A Jew is a Jew eternally nothing else, not a German not a Spaniard not an Irishman but, a Jew. How would Jews feel if some Germans just came to Israel and started saying that they are also Israeli's? They wouldn't like it. Einstein isn't German, just because his name is made up of two German words doesn't make him German. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.141.214.87 (talk • contribs) 03:14, June 6, 2005 (UTC)

You don't have to be a Jew to be an Israeli; where did you get that notion? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:17, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is getting scarily like a Usenet discussion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:45, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

lol, so many people do not understand the difference between Nationality, Ethnicity, and Religion. One can be ethnically semetic and not believe in Judaism. One can be German and believe in Judaism. One can be ethnically germanic and live in another country besides germany. Why is it so hard to believe Einstein was a German. Einstein's family lived in Germany for generations, he was a German citizen, and spoke german. All germans were not Nazis. Nazis were members of the National Socialist Workers Party, and not all Germans liked the Nazis. Einstein was one of the Germans who did not like Nazis. Einstein did believe nationalism was "the measels of humanity", but that doesn't mean he hated Germany. It just means he did not like Nazis, or believe in the State above all else. <ProgressivePantheist>

• sigh* I think my IQ drops ten points every time I read one of "unsigned"'s comments. My God, some people are ignorant!

--\Dev\Null —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.177.39.8 (talk • contribs) 22:22, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

E, mc2, etc

I removed the following text as being highly suspicious:

This connection of mass, energy and the speed of light was deduced first by Friedrich Hasenöhrl and published in Annalen der Physik, vol 15, 1904. This was the same journal that Einstein published his derivation in a year later. He used Maxwell's equations for the pressure exerted by light applied to an evacuated container undergoing an acceleration. The calculation was somewhat complicated, and he got a proportionality of 4/3 rather than the correct value of 1, however.

Given that most sites on the internet which mention this are crackpot "Einstein was a plaigiarist" sites, I'm going to insist on a legitimate citation before including this in an article. A full JSTOR search of "Hasenöhrl einstein" yields nothing. --Fastfission 18:20, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Good work. If I'd have seen something like that I'd remove it too. --Technogiddo 14:22, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Four or five papers?

In the section "Work and doctorate", it says:

That same year, he wrote four articles that provided the foundation of modern physics, without much scientific literature to which he could refer or many scientific colleagues with whom he could discuss the theories.

In the References section, it says:

John Stachel, Einstein's Miraculous Year: Five Papers That Changed the Face of Physics, Princeton University Press, 1998, ISBN 0691059381

Which is correct?? The Wikipedia article only mentions four papers. --Susurrus 07:20, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, the fifth paper was actually his thesis. I've included the original German title for it as well. --Susurrus 23:37, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Einstein's religious beliefs

There is evidence he may of been a Deist. Since he did not come out and flat say he was a pantheist. I think this conjecture should be noted —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.166.5.13 (talk • contribs) 06:51, April 17, 2005 (UTC)

Pantheist, Deist, and more?

Einstein believed in as he put it "Spinoza's god who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists." Spinoza is the founder of Pantheism. Deism is the polar opposite of pantheism, because Deism is a form of dualism - not monism - and believes in a transcendant clockmaker god... not in a pantheistic immanent God - <ProgressivePantheist, May 25>

Just because he comments favorably on Spinoza a few times, does not mean he is not a Deist. The quote in article uses much of the terminology of Deism & uses a lot of language that suggests a god that is a separately identifiable entity. Deism has often been criticized for its pantheism, as pantheism has often been for its near atheism -- also see pandeism & panentheism & panendeism--JimWae 17:29, 2005 May 26 (UTC)

Pantheist Only

This quote clearly shows he is only a pantheist: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Pandeism is just a synonym for pantheism that, as a term, has no purpose of existing, and panedeism is different from pantheism since it believes in a god that is transcendant and immanent. Pantheists believe in a wholly immanent God. Pantheists will describe God as the perfection of the universe, or as einstein said "the structure of our world". He said nothing of believing in a transcendant God. Maybe some deists say the same things, but they would be miscategorizing themselves if they do.

Deism still promotes the belief in Heaven and Souls, and anthropomorphizes god. Hence why the Deism wikipedia page refers to God as a "He" and gives him the human characteristics. Here is one example from that page "In this view, the reason God does not intervene in the world (via miracles) is not simply that he does not care, but rather that he has already created the best of all possible worlds and any intervention could not improve it." Einstein would not make baseless assumptions like this and is therefore a pantheist, and believes exactly what he stated and nothing remotely like the quote above. The fact that Einstein mentions Spinoza specifically should've given you enough of a clue though

Again one more quote from the einstein page to prove my point: Victor J. Stenger, author of Has Science Found God? (2001), wrote of Einstein's presumed pantheism, "Both deism and traditional Judeo-Christian-Islamic theism must also be contrasted with pantheism, the notion attributed to Baruch Spinoza that the deity is associated with the order of nature or the universe itself." This means that pantheism is at odds with the judeo-christian view and also at odds with deism. This supports my claim that deism is the polar opposite of pantheism.

ProgressivePantheist 22:55, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Those arguments are interesting, but he was still described as both a Deist and a Pantheist, regardless of whether you think they are the polar opposites of each other. Please stop removing attested facts from the article. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:10, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

I reordered the page, to help with the clarity ProgressivePantheist 03:25, June 7, 2005 (UTC)

It seemed to be more pushing a POV than helping with clarity. Let Einstein speak for himself, please, before your promote your own favoured view. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:31, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

lol let Einstein speak for himself... He did... he says he believes in Spinoza's God. Spinoza is the foremost pantheist philosopher. Go to Spinoza's page and look it up if you dont believe me. One cannot be deist and pantheist, It is like saying one is Christian and Islamic, it doesnt work. ProgressivePantheist 19:59, June 7, 2005 (UTC)

Your POV is fascinating, as always. However, please stop trying to promote your own POV on the article page itself. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:27, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is a difference between POV and obvious undeniable fact ProgressivePantheist 22:01, June 7, 2005 (UTC)

Please review the WP:NPOV policy; Wikipedia doesn't attempt to decide what is "undeniable fact"; instead it presents properly cited POVs on what the facts are. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:53, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

if you look up pantheism and deism in google, you get this site: http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/pantheism.htm It states in there that pantheism and deism are "polar opposites"... how's that for relevant citation. I already tried citing from this same page but you guys didn't like that, I hope this will take things from clear to crystal clear ProgressivePantheist 06:35, June 8, 2005

If you cannot understand why that is irrelevant to both my statements and this article, then I cannot help you. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:25, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

TM

Re the third pg, who registered his name as a trademark? Did he in say 1904, or did someone else do it last year? -SV|t 01:34, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

It's an interesting question; I e-mailed the company to see if I could get a response. I'll let you know if they get back to me. --Fastfission 16:36, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• A quick search of Patent and Trademark Office turns up a couple hundred trademarks using "Einstein", quite a few of which are the term Einstein alone. Trademarks are associated with specific items; so, for example, Einstein Brother Bagels and Albert Einstein stuffed toys and Einstein Wireless Communications co-exist quite happily. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:05, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The head of the Roger Richman Agency referred me to this article as a source of information on the topic. However it doesn't seem to have much on the history of it. As for its "use" -- it depends on how they have legally set it up. It is possible to trademark "celebrity" (i.e. Bela Lugosi's "I vant to suck your blaauudd") but it can be very tricky in court, and I'm not sure how it works after the celebrity in question has died (usually such things are held as forms of intellectual property because the persona has been "developed", however Einstein simply was Einstein, and it is hard to know how would could legally "develop" a personality of "being yourself" which extended indefinitely beyond one's grave!). Ah, this would be a wonderful and sexy little history paper to write... --Fastfission 01:40, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why no infobox?

?

Sam Spade 04:10, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I was under the impression that they were generally considered ugly and ultimately unnecessary. His name and birth/death dates/locations are easy to find (and the locations are generally not the first thing anybody needs to know about any given figure). There is also no criteria to decide what is the "paradigmatic quote", either, if that is still a continued field. In any event, we once had a very small discussion on it, with nobody actively supporting the infobox, so I reverted the addition as it was not discussed on the talk page. The "multiple times" reference in my initial comment seems incorrect as I look over the talk archive, and I imagine I am confusing it with the vote against the box at Charles Darwin.

If we wanted to vote again, I'd vote no infobox, for the reasons I've given. I don't think it improves anything, and I think it is ugly. --Fastfission 05:22, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Voting is very, very wrong. See User:Sam Spade/Voting is anti-wiki. Prost, Sam Spade 06:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uh, okay. That aside, how exactly do you propose making aesthetic decisions such as this? It's not terribly helpful to post links to your cute little opinion pages without suggesting a clear alternative, you know. --Fastfission 14:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Other biographies have infoboxes and there should be one here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.56.7.1 (talk • contribs) 16:34, June 13, 2005 (UTC)

If all the other kids jumped off a bridge...

Seriously, the article looks so much better now. Infoboxes are only useful for presenting in a tight way important information that isn't (1) patently obvious (2) easily findable in the first paragraph. In this case, the first sentence states birth and death, while your average internet user knows more about who he is than could be conveyed in an infobox. Therefore I think that one would add nothing.

Also, although Wikipedia is not a democracy, one has to arrive at a consensus somehow. It looks like that has already happened here, but I welcome further discussion.--Laura Scudder | Talk 19:22, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If there is indeed concensus to keep out the taxobox, I don't intend to violate it. That said, I think the issue can be discussed w/o fear of voting ;) Sam Spade 21:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Swiss/German?

Perhaps Einstein should have the last word? He famously remarked, "if relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German, and the Germans will call me a Jew." --RobertG ♬ talk 11:45, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• The Germans called him a Jew, does that mean relativity is wrong? --Technogiddo 14:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • You might not be aware that most Germans today would call him a German. The fact that he is also Jewish is acknowledged, of course.--171.64.204.98 22:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Ch-Ch-Changes

I'd appreciate it if things like adding an infobox or changing the main picture were discussed here first -- while people should "be bold," they are major changes in the aesthetic appearance of the article, and I disagree that the TIME magazine photo is the one which should be the primary photograph for him (it puts far too much importance on what TIME thinks -- if they had made someone else person of the century it wouldn't have reduced Einstein's achievements one bit). I also removed the unsourced and in my mind likely ridiculous notion about his estimated IQ from the lead paragraph. Whether or not such a speculative line -- even with a reputable source -- should be included in the article is a question which should be raised in general, but the idea that it should be in the lead section is, in my mind, ridiculous. --Fastfission 04:19, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

An infobox is good thing to have on biographies.

The main picture can be changed .... why discuss it here first?

These are not major changes in the aesthetic appearance.

The TIME magazine photo is the one which should be the primary photograph for him. Why does it put so much importance on what TIME thinks? It's just another accolade [though a bigger one then some] (and a good pic of him, better than the one that was there). If they had made someone else person of the century it wouldn't have reduced Einstein's achievements one bit.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.56.7.1 (talk • contribs) 15:20, June 13, 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 16:11, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)) I strongly support FF in disliking the Time promo material photo, and indeed in his entire point that Times opinion matters not one whit.

Connelly, don't remove information (if you see the diff in the history, you did that!)

Time promo material photo? It a good shot of Einstien. I put in the 1905 shot insteade though (1905 being his best year of work).

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.56.7.1 (talk • contribs) 16:25, June 13, 2005 (UTC)

I am highly suspicious that you are trying to "game the system" here. Making a lot of big changes (i.e. the infobox, picture changes, etc), then add a bunch of little details, then use the "removal" of those details when people revert the big changes as an excuse to revert. I've gone through (TWICE now) and tried to fix any such edits that happen after the infobox, picture changes, etc. so that no content changes are lost. This is in itself a good reason to stop making those sorts of changes before they are discussed, because they are hard to undo. Nobody has any desire to "remove content" -- they are just trying to undo these other, non-content changes. So please stop making them for the moment. --Fastfission 16:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I think infoboxes are ugly and totally unnecessary. His name, birth and death day, and locations are easy to see in the article itself. Let's discuss it before trying to add it in. Work with me here.
• Because if everybody just changes it on a whim, then I'm just going to revert it on a whim. What I'm saying is, I think that TIME magazine image is a really awful main page image. So if you disagree with me, you'd better discuss it here with me! That's a polite way to put it.
• If you had spent 10 minutes trying to carefully undo those changes without reverting other edits already made, you'd find them to be less than minor changes too! Aside from that, they change the entire tone of the first page of the article, I consider that pretty important.
• I very much dislike the TIME magazine image. I don't think it captures anything about the man himself and I dislike that TIME is written across his forehead as well. Their opinion of him doesn't matter one bit -- their sanction means nothing towards whether he accomplished great things. (I'd take a Nobel Prize over TIME's approval any day of the week!)
• So let's discuss this a bit and see what other people think. I consider these to be big enough changes that I'd revert them if they were undiscussed. Now the main picture is grainy. That doesn't work either. Let's not get into a revert war -- I'm pleading with you people to discuss it here first, come to some sort of agreement. --Fastfission 16:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The other main reason to discuss it here first is that it is incredibly difficult to undo JUST those sorts of changes if any other changes in content have been made. So let's figure all that out before making other changes to content, because otherwise we're likely to accidentally lose other changes. --Fastfission 16:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I think infoboxes are nice looking. His name, birth and death day, and locations are easier to see in the infobox. Let's discuss it before rmoving it (as it was there early on). I'll work with you.
• The TIME magazine image isn't that awful, but I think the 1905 would be a better main image (1st one seen).
• I carefully undo changes without reverting other edits already made and I do find them to be minor changes. Howq do they change the entire tone of the first page of the article?
• These are not really big enough changes to throuw a fit about. I'd revert any blatant mass reversion.
• The main picture isn't grainy. Why doesn't work for you?
• Let's not get into a revert war -- I'm pleading with you to discuss it here first.
• -- Anonymous —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.56.7.1 (talk • contribs) 16:41, June 13, 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 16:46, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)) You're pleading with us to give up and accept your version. That won't happen. Discuss changes on talk first. And SIGN YOUR POSTS.

(William M. Connolley 16:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)) BTW folks, the anon here appears to be the same as the one over at Dynamic theory of gravity if you care to take a look...

(William M. Connolley 16:50, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)) AND apparent attempts to put AE's name on the aether page [23]

You've broken the Three Revert Rule. Please stop. The reason we need to discuss it without your picture changes first is that they are not easy to fix. Which you'd know if you tried to carefully undo them without disturbing the other content that was added since they were added! --Fastfission 16:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oops, we both reported her. I've removed my report. William M. Connolley 17:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC).

Now he/she's scrambled everything up. The whole thing needs a clean reversion. The only thing I can see of any value is fixing the spelling of "mad scientist" at the bottom, but I don't see the point in doing it if the whole thing is likely to be reverted back in the future (and I don't want to do that myself because I don't want to go over my own 3RR). This is ridiculous. Appealing to some version from six months ago as a precedent to continue this sort of revert war, without discussing it, is not "working with us." --Fastfission 17:13, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the infobox was removed on 18 Jan 2005 by Gzornenplatz ... it should not have been -- Anon —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.56.7.1 (talk • contribs) 17:16, June 13, 2005 (UTC)

if there isn't a infobox, then there shouldn't be any pictures @ the intro. - Anon —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.56.7.1 (talk • contribs) 17:17, June 13, 2005 (UTC)

You have no basis for "it should not have been", and now you're just committing petty vandalism. --Fastfission 17:21, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

revert explanation

I reverted the page a few minutes ago because the 20:54, 15 Jun 2005 version somehow was returned. But for some reason the version before mine in the history is different. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ted-m (talk • contribs) 19:54, June 16, 2005 (UTC)

Kilobytes long

The page was 49 kilobytes long. Moving the Papers took off 5kb. It's now 44 kilobytes long. Some synopsis of facts and links to main articles would help this entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 14:30, June 28, 2005 (talk • contribs) 204.56.7.1.

BTW, note to all watching this article: Annus Mirabilis Papers has been spawned off from it, and (sigh) needs watching too. William M. Connolley 2005-06-30 16:26:12 (UTC).

Everything in the Papers articles is cited. - Anon —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.56.7.1 (talk • contribs) 16:50, June 30, 2005 (UTC)

This is your tradiational confusion. It is not true that everything that can be cited belongs in an article, and it would save rather a lot of effort if you could learn that. William M. Connolley 2005-06-30 17:17:10 (UTC).

Einstein's Quotes

I've removed this section from the page. It duplicates the Wikiquote in much less detail and without citation. Any objections? S.N. Hillbrand 18:45, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Swiss citizen?

Why is the fact that he was a Swiss citizen left out of the introduction?

"German-born American theoretical physicist"

The two countries that maybe is the most twinned with Einstein is Germany and Switzerland. Remember that he made all of his now famous works while he was in Switzerland/Germany. And I also think that most people tend to se him as German/Swiss - not "German-born American". So if there is just room for two different nationalities to be mentioneed then it should be German-born Swiss.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.89.229.207 (talk • contribs) 21:29, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Einstein as film maker

I remember reading as a child that Einstein dabbled in film making when he was younger and living in Germany. Perhaps this is worth a mention in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WilliamKF (talk • contribs) 23:53, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Einstein and quantum mechanics

His position seems to be similar to that of the last great alchemists relative to chemistry: he helped discover it but did not ever really believe it. --David R. Ingham 21:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Einstein and Religion

There needs to be a little more info in the Religion section; particularily about what Einstein means when he mentions a "God". Does he mean it in a "being" form or simply a supreme non-being form (as in, god IS nature; sort of like Pantheism). Does Einstein believe in a being who created the universe, and left it untouched; or did he mean Pantheism? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.2.47.248 (talk • contribs) 00:53, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Einstein's Last Words.

There appears to be a contradiction with respect to the description of Einstein's death. The statement says that Einsteind died in his sleep. But this is followed by the statement that the nurse said that he mumbled something in German before he died. So was he awake when he died or was he mumbling in his sleep. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.95.167.91 (talk • contribs) 11:22, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Sep 2005 – Dec 2005

Einstein's neice

I.Q. (film) is a movie revolving around Einstein's neice Elizabeth Boyd. Is she fictional ? Einstein's only sibling Maja, didn't have children, so is the neice from one of his cousins ? Jay 18:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I got the answer from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Jay 10:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Jay, I believe she's totally fictional. At least, I have seen no references to any niece of Albert Einstein... On, and actually, the name of the character is Catherine Boyd, instead of Elizabeth. At least, this is what I read on IMDB.com. Milena 19:36, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Omissions

While the article is excellent, it misses two important points:

1. The fact that, from an early age, Einstein went off religion (apparently it made no sense to him)
2. His continued work against nuclear warfare in the last 10 years of his life.

203.129.48.8 06:52, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Categorization

From Wikipedia:categorization:

An article with the same name as a category should usually belong only to that category, for instance, Deism belongs only in Category:Deism.

Admitedly it is a guideline, but I think that it is a good one. That is why I moved the categorization to the category. Now it has been moved back. I would like to discuss that matter somewhat. Perhaps the guideline needs some work in this case.

--EMS | Talk 01:55, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure myself; it is strange to have an article on a person have no category other than itself, and it also makes the Albert Einstein category show up a bit strangely in other categories. For example, Albert Einstein, the person, had something important to do with the Manhattan Project, so he should be in Category:Manhattan Project. But when the cats are all in the category Category:Albert Einstein, then he appears as a sub-category of the Manhattan Project. Which isn't quite right. Only the person is meant by such a reference -- the Einstein's refrigerator has nothing to do with the Manhattan Project and shouldn't be in that category at all (though it is by sub-categorization).

I think the problem is that Category:Albert Einstein really means, if it is no so named, "Things associated with Albert Einstein", which is not the same thing as "The human being, Albert Einstein", which is what all of these categories (birth and death dates, etc.) refer to.

--Fastfission 15:27, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Aspergers

What is the relevance of mentioning a spurious mental disease and saying it is alleged to be part of the foundation of Einstein's intellect? This specious malady is only important to numerous male internet users because using reductive reasoning they can self-diagnose themselves just like Asperger's namesake. Unfortunately any criticism of the darling of the so-called 'geek' subculture, apparently this is as chic as an open discussion about who's taking which meds and the last time someone cut themselves for livejournal, only serves to rile up the Ass Pies. Aspergers did not write Einstein's 1905 papers. Einstein wrote them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.53.17.160 (talk • contribs) 23:35, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

• Thank you for your opinion. Please familiarize yourself with our neutral point of view and original research policies. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
• Einstein, Newton, and Asperger Syndrome From Mary Kugler
• Einstein and Newton showed signs of autismfrom the New Scientist
• Einstein and Newton 'had autism'From the BBC

These links are to sources of high standing. I think the theory improves this featured Article. Psychologists of high standing believe Asperger's syndrome is real. Others disagree. Aspergers may be unreal. Assuming that the condition is definitely unreal is unscientific. Barbara Shack 17:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it should go without saying that calling Asperger's Syndrome a "spurious mental disease"/"specious malady" is more than a little insulting to some of us, Mr./Ms. Unsigned User. *bites thumb in Shakespearean manner* thanx. Philolexica

Note to 206.53.17.160

(In reference to Aspergers syndrome and Albert)

1) Please do sign in to be worthy of belief,

2) I must take the side of Miss Barbara Shack here, it is credible information.

3) You have the opportunity here and now on this page to comment before randomly making deletion changes on someones diligent and time consuming effort/ work, to build an encyclopedia, and or debate the Aspergers syndrome topic. That is what this site is about, has been, and always will be. It's not an attempt to destroy information. You may argue your point here.

Thanks in advance Scott File:Gavel.gif22:41:57, 2005-09-10 (UTC)

(BTW I am not the unsigned writer.) What first concerns me is that all three articles are actually coming from the same press release of the same two researchers. They do no more than reproduce each other and neither the BBC nor New Scientist endorse the theory in any way - not that either is qualified to do so. There is no reference to a publication in a peer-reviewed journal, and no indication of whether anyone with expertise in the field *beyond these two researchers* believes that the theory is worth taking seriously. The only clear information is that two researchers say that Einstein *may* have had Asperger's

Second, the evidence cited in the articles appears weak. The Wikipedia article on Asperger's syndrome gives a number of distinctive traits for diagnosis and very few of them have been shown to be true of Einstein.

E.g. Wiki: "People with Asperger's syndrome are often noted for having a highly pedantic way of speaking, using language far more formal and structured than the situation would normally be thought to call for." Now surely someone would have noticed if Einstein was like this? One article says effectively the reverse: that Einstein's lectures were *confusing*. Testing for simply 'problems in communication' glosses over the difference.

Wiki: "The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." Not much evidence of this. The BBC article concedes: "... the German-born scientist made intimate friends, had numerous affairs and spoke out on political issues."

A thorough rebuttal (by an autistic man) with citation of research appears here:

http://www.jonathans-stories.com/non-fiction/undiagnosing.html

At the very least I think it would be appropriate to mention that the Asperger's theory is speculative, has not been peer evaluated, and is disagreed with by prominent researchers (Sowell for one).

--Tdent 10:54, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I've had intimate friends, been politically active... it's these affairs I'm missing out on. *sigh* No, no, no! Stop trying to generalize Asperger's Syndrome! It's a complex neurological condition with no known cause, but more importantly, it sits within an autistic spectrum, within which one autist might have more in common with a neurotypical than another autist. It's a fact that whether or not Einstein had or didn't have Asperger's is indeterminable, and therefore, this shouldn't be an issue of debate. Posthumous diagnosis is controversial by its very nature, and no legitimate scientist is going to come out with a definitive answer. The possibility that Einstein had Asperger's Syndrome is speculation, but on that note, it's widespread speculation with great ramifications -- for living autists more than Albert! Do to the evolution of the English language, people described as "autistic" today don't necessarily have autism; instead, it connotes many qualities and attributes that are associated with autism. There is nothing terrible about a breif mention of a speculative diagnosis, but when addressing Einstein the man, I think more exacting adjectives can be found. Debate on proper diction would, in my opinion, prove much more fruitful than the pointless debate that has ensued thus far. For example, since when has a man's kind and friendly demeanor been "rooted" in his pacifism? Seriously. Philolexica

Gap in the career outline

The career details are incomplete around 1900. It doesn't say when he started work at the patent office. CalJW 05:06, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, the family seems to magically transport itself from Ulm to Munich (where the Luitpoldgymnasium is) without explanation. Presumably they did actually move between the two places - when?

--Tdent 10:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, there is nothing much about the 1905 year. There is a link to it, but some sort of summary needs to be in the article. I came here looking for the history of Einstein's work on Special Relativity. 194.200.237.219 12:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I think there is some unreverted vandalism in the article. Look here [24]; there is a much better discussion of the miracle year. If I have time, I will try to put the missing text back. Pfalstad 17:23, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I fixed this. Pfalstad 22:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks like someone (who was also anonymous) removed vandalism instead of reverting it. I do wish people would check to see what was changed, before cleaning up vandalism. 194.200.237.219 15:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Quotations

User:EarthBoundX5 added a loooong list of quotations and appended a COPYRIGHT notice. I removed the list. EarthBoundX5, please add these quotations to Wikiquotes if they are not in fact copyrighted. (How the heck can quotations by Einstein be copyrighted, anyway? Even by the Hebrew University, much less by this Kevin Harris?). EarthBoundX5's only other contrib has been an apparent hoax article up for AfD.---CH (talk) 19:29, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you made the right call on the removal. Aside from that... quotations can be copyrighted like any text but their use is usually considered "fair use" since they are usually such a small part of the overall work. There are more details at the Wikiquote copyright page if you'd like more information on how copyright law applies to quotations. --Fastfission 12:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Nationality & "who is the greatest"

24.253.120.206 (talk · contribs) made some changes that I reverted and I thought I would explain why.

1. I think the citizenship information was added because of endless disputes as to whether Einstein was German or American or whatever or not. I think it is a sensible thing to leave it in even if it is not ideal, because it stems off problems.
2. I don't know or care who is the "greatest physicist" but I think it is true that Einstein is "widely regarded" as the greatest scientist. I think "widely" here means "more than just the physics community", for one thing, but I also doubt that there is much "hard data" on whether or not Newton or Gauss is considered "better". If there is hard data, it should be added in the article somewhere (and cited) but doesn't need to be in the lead section, much less with an awkward note which references a basically empty statement.

Just my feelings on it, and why I reverted these changes. --Fastfission 02:07, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Frequent vandalism

I've been watching this page for a while and i've seen it being vandalized quite so often. Isn't there any mechanism in wikipedia to prevent changes to a page unless reviewed ? At least for frequently vandalized pages, one would have to spend a nontrivial amount of time checking if someone's added some crap. Manik Raina 13:40, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Good idea tough it would not help much as revision would take time as well. Still, it is an idea and probably the best place to present it is at Village pump. -- Svest 17:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

The problem with this system is that it gets rid of the Wiki philosophy that anyone can edit at any time. There are methods for page protection but those are only used in very limited circumstances. I don't think it's a big deal, it's not usually very hard to undo vandalism. --Fastfission 00:36, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this article seems to be vandalized at least once a day on average. Unfortunately, frequent reversion means that the article is gradually deteriorating over time. Pages can be more or less protected, but this is usually reserved for the highest profile pages like the Wikipedia main page, so I am not optimistic. If it were protected, naturally I'd like to see a nice clean (readable, minimally controversial) version protected. Aye, there's the rub; others will want to protect their own version, possibly with a passion. ---CH (talk) 00:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed folks, thanks for replying. Have a good day Manik Raina 01:58, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I notice that all the vandalism comes from anonymous IP numbers. If Wikipedia editors had to take the single additional step of first logging in—under any pseudonyme they like, even as ridiculous as, say "Wetman"— the thoughtless, spur-of-the-moment vandalism, here and at Leonardo or Michelangelo etc etc, would be largely elimninated, with no loss of anonymity...after all, who is "Wetman"? --Wetman 13:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Introduction

I have to say that I agree with Fastfission, FayssalF, and other users that recent attempts to insert comments into the introduction of this article have been disruptive and should be reverted.

The offenders, who are trying to discuss citizenship, etc. in the first paragraphs, should argue their views in this talk page if they desire instead of continuing to insert badly written material in a way which (in my view) disrupts the flow.

My own view is that Einstein was by his own account about as far from being a "nationalist" as is possible, and that there is in any case little point in explaining at great length various tangled attempts by patriotic citizens of various countries to claim figures like Einstein or Euler, etc., as citizens of Switzerland or wherever. However, if someone wants to argue that this is somehow a terribly important (despite Einstein's own views), let's discuss here where the best place to insert this material into the article might be, in terms of not disrupting what readability the article has left after so many previous careless edits has led to a certain "incoherence creep". ---CH (talk) 00:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Father of Modern Physics?

Hi, 24.253.120.206, I yield to no individual in my admiration of Albert Einstein's scientific work, but I am not sure that any single person really deserves to be called the Father of Modern Physics. Several others, such as Bohr, Heisenberg, Pauli, and Dirac, also played crucial roles in the rise of modern physics. In fact, there are very few cases in modern science in which one person could really be called the undisputed father of any subject. For example, hardly anyone who works in the field of information theory would fail to name Claude Shannon as the undisputed father of their field, but if you ask most scientists who work outside this area of mathematics (but use some concepts such as communication entropy in their work), you will find they are likely to name Norbert Weiner as a second "father" (and others such as John von Neumann also played a role in the events leading up to Shannon's 1948 paper).

Another problem is that according to the usual Wikipedia standards (which unfortunately tends to weigh the opionion of rank ignoramuses equally with that of experts), you can't say that anything about Einstein is undisputed. While few reputable physicists or historians familiar with Einstein's work would fail to agree that Einstein deserves to be called the the father of general relativity or the father of special relativity, in fact both of these titles have been vigorously disputed, beginning with politically inspired hate speech of scientists like Johannes Stark and Philipp Lenard in the 1920s and continuing to various individuals our own time who have axes to grind (see sci.physics.research for a current very silly but long-running thread on this repugnant "argument"). I happen to think this alleged controversy is kept alive by nonscientists with sometimes complicated or obscure extrascientific movitations, which is rather disgusting (and sometimes hilarious), but by Wikipedia standards, it seems that the onl thing which matters is the public controversy, however silly from a scientific or historical point of view, does verifiably exist.

If we accept that we need to remove the word undisputeable, it seems to me that there is no point in keeping the rest of what you wrote. I believe it is quite sufficient, by way of assessing the magnitude of Einstein's scientific achievements, to say that he is regarded as one of the greatest scientists of all time, and in fact one of the most notable figures in intellectual history.

Can you please explain below why you insist on adding this new material to the introduction? ---CH (talk) 06:58, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreement. -- Svest 07:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)  Wiki me up&#153;

Not a big fan of the Father of Modern Physics line either, for the points just raised re: multiple contributors to quantum theory. Gaff 16:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that one who dragged his feet on the full theory of quantum mechanics should be called the father of modern physics. I see him more as the last of the great classical physicists.David R. Ingham 05:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Religious Views

Recent changes made to this section. Some direct quotes added and appreciated. I must wonder about this sentece, however: He showed a clear belief in the God of science. What does that even mean? I think it should probably be either removed or clarified. What are others thoughts? User_talk:Gaff 16:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that every reader should be highly suspicious of quotations attributed to Einstein. To some extent this is true of any celebrity, even living ones (e.g. Penrose), but Einstein quotations pose special problems. Some points to bear in mind:

• Einstein is one of the most (mis)-quoted persons in human history,
• Especially in scientific matters, Einstein often contradicted his earlier pronouncements multiple times,
• After 1920 or so, and especially after he moved to the U.S., there was enormous pressure upon Einstein to use his celebrity to aide various causes, usually by signing some letter or giving reporters a favorable sound bite. Like many people, Einstein liked to be helpful, so despite misgivings, he often obliged. And he often wound up feeling used (or abused) as a result. Pais has a good discussion of this.
• In an extreme case of helping a friend in need, it seems that Einstein once allowed his name to be added as a coauthor to a popular book (the goal was to boost sales in order to feed an impoverished refugee family)--- this book is the source of some well known "Einstein quotations", so in this case, Einstein could even be said to have collaborated in misattributions to him of things he didn't actually write or say! Needless to say, that would be misleading, and taking this story out of context certainly cannot be used to "justify" misattributions.
• In my experience Einstein quoters often have some agenda, e.g. arguing that quantum mechanics doesn't make sense, or that Nazism or the bomb are bad, that God exists, or does not exist, and so on and on and on, by appealing to Einstein's authority, often with little regard to the context in which Einstein said Q, or even whether he really said Q at all. As long as you are aware of this, the agenda (if any) is usually obvious enough.

Since I believe this article should focus on Einstein the man (which mostly means focusing on the aspect of his life which he himself regarded as most important, his contributions to theoretical physics), I would hope that editors would be sensitive to these issues in considering thoughtfully whether to introduce new material, and if so, where and how.

The legend or popular icon aspects are certainly notable, but if they threaten to take over this article, I would prefer discussion of "Einstein the pop culture icon" should be moved to a separate article (or articles). In particular, tracking down the provenance of various quotations attributed to Einstein, might be of some value as an illustration of how people have reacted to the "Einstein the pop culture icon" over the years. If some very persistent and careful reader out there has a lot of time plus copies at hand of all the reputable Einstein biographies, his collected papers, and so forth, it might be worthwhile to collect various alleged quotations, trying to determine their attribution, and writing a separate article. (I suggest calling it Spinning Einstein, but only in jest!) This article should carefully give the provenance of each alleged quotation. Examples:

• you have at hand a copy of paper X or book Y by Einstein, and you can verify directly that he did in fact write Q: add the bibliographic citation to the references section, and where you include Q, mention the citation and if possible the date,
• you have at hand a copy of a reputable biography (e.g. Pais) and can verify that the author believes that Einstein said Q: check the footnotes to see the source, perhaps a personal letter or diary by the person AE was talking to, add the bibliographic citation to the reference section, and where you include Q, explain who AE was talking to, if possible mention the date, and cite the biographer,
• you can verify from primary souces that Q is actually due to someone other than Einstein: add the bibliographic citatation, etc.,
• you can find the first known appearance of alleged quote Q in a highly dubious source, such as a political polemic, a book by an disreputable author, or perhaps a contemporary newspaper article which you can plausibly argue should be considered suspicious.

Another thing to bear in mind when editing this article: above I imagined a thoughtful editor, but as well all know, most edits of this article are either thoughtless (even malicious) or else represent hasty attempts to revert such edits. Incoherence creep is the phenomenon in which text is added by inexperienced writers in a way which breaks up the flow between previous paragraphs, sentences, or ideas, gradually transforming a readable, well-organized article into an incoherent, chaotically disorganized article). This phrase aptly describes the sad history of this article, as we can see on a weekly or even daily basis.---CH (talk) 12:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Asperger's syndrome

I have noticed that there is a tendency for patient advocacy groups for various real and serious conditions to make lists of historical figures or celebs who allegedly suffer from the condition. I have never really understood this agenda (if I am dying from liver cancer, would knowing that celebrity C is also dying from liver cancer really make me feel any better?), but I recognize that such lists are probably well-intentioned. Nonetheless, claims of post-mortem diagnosis are speculative at best, and sometimes are pretty damn absurd, which is the case here. They might be notable in the sense that scurrilious or silly gossip might be notable, but in the case of historical figures like Einstein with genuine claims to notability with go far beyond being the target of gossip, they should not be emphasized unduly.

I have known persons who really do have autism and also Asperger's syndrome. These are conditions which no doubt take an expert to reliably diagnose, but I doubt it takes an expert to doubt that, say, David Letterman has Asperger's syndrome! I have never met Letterman, but I think anyone who has ever seen him on TV, and who has known living individuals who really have been diagnosed autism or Asperger's syndrome, would know at once that David Letterman is not, and has never been, autistic!

The point is that I doubt it takes an expert to recognize that socially fairly normal persons do not have autism. I have seen newsreels of Einstein, I have read reputable biographies such as Pais, and I have even studied contemporary documents such as letters by Einstein, the diaries of Count Kessler (who knew AE socially in Berlin). None of these sources give the slightest hint, in my view, that Einstein could possibly be diagnosed with either of these today by any experienced and reputable physician. In fact, quite the contrary. I can hardly believe that this is even an issue, but I have complained elsewhere about society's tolerance for one the strangest hobbies of certain retired physicians, namely "diagnosing" historical figures such as Lincoln, Napoleon, or Einstein with all kinds of conditions, in flagrant disregard of accepted principles taught in medical school (such as declining to diagnose a patient whom one has not examined personally).

Needless to say, I'd like to see mention of the claim that Einstein was mildly autistic moved well down the article. I think this suggestion is much too silly to deserve mention in the first few paragraphs, given the many much more important aspects of Einstein's biography which clamor for the reader's attention.

CH (talk) 14:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it seems you are imposing your own prejudices about we Aspies. Whether Einstein has or has Asperger's Syndrome is probably less significant than that he displays personality traits which are autistic or at the least autistic-like. As an Aspie, it has long been my conviction that obsession is the most defining aspect of the condition, not social ineptitude. It is this aspect of the "geek syndrome" which gives me a nerdy disposition, which is perceived as such, and not as some social dysfunction. Aspies tend to be bad at "small talk," which is why individuals like myself and presumably like Einstein flurish among other intellectuals. Nonetheless, no Aspie is complete without at least some social quirks and indeed difficulties too, but my reading of Einstein's personal life has proven he's had his share. And personally, having had an admiration for Einstein all my life -- even though I'm an aspiring professor in socio-cultural anthropology (because I love to be in front of lots of people and talk about people) -- there isn't any historical figure with whom I feel more empathy. All that said, I agree with you for the most part: speculation as to whether Einstein was an Aspie should be treated only in passing, if at all; labeling Einstein with a neurological condition is a cheap way of generalizing a complex personality. On the other hand, that Einstein displayed autistic qualities says much about society, notions of normalcy, conformity, and of course, the autistic specturm. Appropriately, Einstein is mentioned in detail in the Asperger Syndrome article. Philolexica

Vandalism, Incoherence Creep, and Page Protection, and a Modest Proposal

Incoherence creep is the phenomenon in which an initally well-organized and readable article, with a clear flow of ideas from one sentence and one paragraph to the next, is gradually destroyed by edits of the following kinds:

• well-intended additions of material by inexperienced editors which breaks up the flow of previous writing, or disturbs an internal organizational scheme (e.g., recent additions discussing Einstein's "national origins"),
• vandalism of the silly or scatological variety (this high-profile article is highly vulnerable to this; to mention just one example, I have noticed that teachers in some computer labs seem to assign a class to look at it, with the result that some students attempt to send real-time "amusing" or hateful messages to each other by editing the article),
• additions of material in pursuance of some agenda which disturbs the balance and flow of the article; examples are too legion to list but include the Tesla freak, persons eager to tear Einstein down by any means, such as insinuating that he "stole" [sic] his theories from others, cranks promoting their own "theories", someone pursuing some Asperger's syndrome agenda),
• careless attempts to revert this kind of edit (sometimes to an inappropriate version allowing earlier damage to survive).

If you have been monitoring this article on a daily basis, you have very likely seen many examples of this kind of edit.

My point is that permitting (almost, one might say, encouraging) frequent vandalism and otherwise minor but bad edits of high profile articles is destructive to the Wikipedia for several reasons:

• it tends to prevent users with expert knowledge from contributing good writing because they wind up spending all their "WP time" trying to correct damage to articles which they or someone else worked hard to whip into shape,
• despite such efforts, incoherence creep tends to gradually damage or destroy articles which at one time were well-organized, accurate, fair, and readable.

Accordingly, I'd like to see this article restored to such a happy state and then protected permanently. Even this would not fix the problem over the long term, since not all admins have scientific or historical expertise or are unbiased when it comes to Einstein, and no doubt some admins would want to unblock the article, and indeed from time to time there might be good reason to add timely material (e.g. to note the current World Year of Physics honoring Einstein).

Does anyone know what is the best way to submit petitions of the kind I have in mind to Wikimedia?

More generally, does anyone know of suitable forums for discussing the Wikipedia model versus the classic Britannica model for creating an encyclopedia? I believe that the world wide web, wiki software, and other technological innovations offer promise for a blend of suitable features from this model which could lead to a "controlled content" encyclopedia which would offer better writing and factual reliability than the current Wikipedia but also greater timeliness (particularly on rapidly advanced technological topics) than a classical paper encyclopedia.

A related question: I am of course aware that I am by no means the only Wikipedia user who feels that Wikimedia will eventually be forced (by rampant vandalism and other destructive edits by anons which are overwhelming the current administration system) to abandon its strange insistence (which is unique to this site, in my experience) on allowing even unregistered users to freely edit content. Given the inevitability of this step, it is in the Wikipedia's best interests that it occur sooner rather than later. Would anyone else here be interested in circulating some kind of petition? Any suggestions for how to do this effectively? Anyone have past experience with previous attempts to nudge Wikimedia in this direction? I think its pretty clear such a major step would have to be approved by Jimbo Wales, in fact I have the impression he is at once the only person who needs to be persuaded and the only person who could veto such a change--- please correct me if I am wrong about that!

Thoughts? ---CH (talk) 14:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Apparently you're going to get your wish; Jimbo plans to have stricter editing rules for some articles. See [25]. I can't find any detail about this proposal on wikipedia itself, though. Also check out Wikipedia:Village pump (perennial proposals)#Abolish_anonymous_users. Pfalstad 15:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, maybe not. At any rate, if you want an encyclopedia that you can edit but other people can't, Wikipedia isn't the place for you. I'm not sure that the "wiki" philosophy of "anyone can edit" is a workable approach, but it does seem like the number of janitors around here exceeds the number of vandals. An important question is "who gets bored first". --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:07, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Bored? Who? Nothing! Bird Flu? Nothing! -- Svest 02:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Hi, Jpgordon, if you read what I wrote more carefully, I actually mentioned several proposals, some less controversial than others, and I asked for suggestions about where might be the most suitable place to discuss these. If someone can suggest such a venue, perhaps we can continue the discussion there. OK?---CH (talk) 21:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Counter Vandalism Unit

Wikipedia:Counter Vandalism Unit

Wikipedia is under 24/7 vandalism attack. Pages get blanked, replaced, overwritten in a destructive manner, however pages are reverted/removed/restored before you even know it as a result of "janators". "Anyone can edit" comes with his problem yes, if it werent "anyone can edit", who determines who can edit and who cant ;). I understand your frustration, however sometimes it is necesary to take drastic mesures against some more notable vandals. --Cool Cat ^Talk 11:20, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Link vandalism

Hi all, as an example of vandalism apparently designed to degrade this article but remain undetected, note the recent edits by 206.254.117.182 in Texas, which consisted of dewikifying the introduction.---CH (talk) 22:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Is Einstein German?

Is there any evidence that he has German ancestory? Ethnic German ancestory. I'm trying to remove all Austrian, Jewish and Swiss Americans from the German American category. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.141.217.93 (talk • contribs) 04:37, November 1, 2005 (UTC)

Both of his parents were Jewish. He has no ethnic German ancestry.Vulturell 09:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Uhm, Germans who born in jewish family are not Germans? --128.214.69.47 11:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

This "controversy" is an example of why I deplore inflammatory edits to this article. 128.214.69.47 from Helsinki, I am probably more sympathetic to your politics than to those of Vulturell (to judge from the comments above), but I wish you would avoid adding potentially inflammatory characterizations of Einstein's political views to this article. The 00:32, 6 November 2005 version is noticeably less inflammatory re Palestine than versions which you wrote. Please, let's all keep the focus on Einstein the man, particularly his scientific work, rather than attempting to hijack Einstein the icon to promote this political view or that. TIA ---CH (talk) 20:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Marion?

It's very possible I'm missing somethere here, but I can't understand who this "Marion" in Albert_Einstein#Political_views is. There is no other mention of a Marion in the article. Does anybody know what this refers to?

--Recnilgiarc 19:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe this may be a garbled reference to Marian Robeson, Paul Robeson's mother. I recently read a biography of Robeson but don't recall this episode being mentioned! I will remove it pending confirmation. Thanks for pointing out this problem. ---CH (talk) 19:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Ahha, that could explain it. I ran across Paul Robeson after Googling "Marion Einstein", but I didn't think to check his mother's name. Thanks!

--Recnilgiarc 19:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Done. Paul Robeson's association with Einstein re civil rights and peace initiatives is documented elsewhere, and putting up Marian Robeson is certainly the kind of thing Einstein would have done, but I can't find independent verification of this right now. If anyone has the time to borrow from your local library reputable biograpies of Einstein and of Robeson to comb through for references to this episode, I'd be grateful, since if verified it adds a nice human touch to the article. Searching collections of Robeson's writings might also uncover further verification of his association with Einstein. Books like Susan Robeson's The Whole World in his Hands might have some pictures of Einstein with Robeson. Speaking of which, it would be nice to have a page collecting public domain or fair-use images of Einstein. I tried to obtain permission from the copyright holder of a very nice picture of Einstein sitting with Leon Infeld, so far without success. Too bad since it's one of the few pictures showing Einstein in a relaxed social situation (his customary expression ranges from bored to uncomfortable). I'd also love to be able to upload the picture with his sister Maya and the picture taken by a passerby in Berlin just days before Einstein left Germany forever, in which one can perhaps detect a bit of the distress and bewilderment he must have been feeling.---CH (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I have one quibble regarding the word friend, which is much overused with respect to Einstein. People who knew Einstein agree he had very few friends in the sense of close confidants. Besso, Born, and Infeld could probably be described as friends, Bohr as a much respected colleague, Lorentz and Mach as respected elders (in his early years), Szilard as someone whose company Einstein sometimes enjoyed (there is no question he enjoyed the famous refrigerator episode) and sometimes merely endured, Robeson, Painleve, and many others as politically prominent figures with whom Einstein discussed political issues and even collaborated with, at least to the extent of signing open letters and so forth. Robeson is someone he met with several times and corresponded with concerning social/political issues on which they shared common views, which is a bond of a kind, but I doubt there was a close personal friendship. I would prefer to see that paragraph rewritten to describe their occasional collaboration to further social justice and world peace, issues about which both men cared deeply.---CH (talk) 20:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Font problems

This talk page keeps growing, and an incorrectly coded signature of one participant, User:Gaff, messed up the fonts on the previous version of this page. (I have left a note on the talk page of that user asking him to fix the problem with his signature.) I have fixed the fonts in Talk:Albert_Einstein/Archive/2 and moved recent discusions to a new archive page (see link above).---CH (talk) 22:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Use of the word "creation"

Is it appropriate that the word "creation" is being used to describe the universe as part of an objective encyclopedia article?

From the third paragraph:

"His reverence for all creation, his belief in the grandeur..."

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Funny Fins (talk • contribs) 15:32, December 3, 2005 (UTC)

Einstein and Immanuel Kant

Does anyone who really knows Einstein's life know if he read Kant at all? I ask this for several reasons. First, Einstein said the following:

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

— Albert Einstein, Religion and Science (article in Ideas and Opinions)

Here's a quote from Kant:

Intuitions without ideas are blind, and ideas without intuitions are empty.

— Immanuel Kant, Critique of Pure Reason)

Kant means "a type of experience" from what has been translated as "intuition" here.

They're obvious not exactly the same, but they are similar enough for me to think they either come from a common source or one (Einstein's) is adopted from the other (Kant's).

Another reason I think Einstein might be affected by Kant (or maybe the German Idealists in general??) is because of the importance of space and time in Kant's philosophy - they are the prerequisites to knowledge, and in this way we can know the structure of future experiences before we've even experienced them (we know that we will always experience them in time).

My second reason is probably off target, but I think the issue I brought up with the quotes is interesting - I welcome any responses.

--FranksValli 08:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Einstein read Kant's Critique of Pure Reason at the age of 13. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.216.64.159 (talk • contribs) 19:10, December 7, 2005 (UTC)

bio by Pais, "Subtle..." , p 13, says he first read Kant in high school GangofOne 07:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

1889: Meets 21 year old student Max Talmud, introduces Einstein to key science and philosophy texts including Kant’s "Critique of pure reason" [26] --24.253.120.206 13:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Age 10. Did he understand it? GangofOne 05:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

That source, which is posted above, does not say. This site states that he understood it at the age of 13, which is one of the reasons why the psychometrician estimates his ratio IQ to be 183. [27] --24.253.120.206 12:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Some V Stats

Big improvement in the past few days, keep it up! :-)

From the history page:

• 10 Dec (so far): V < 1 min
• 9 Dec: blanked for 1 min
• 8 Dec: no V (first time I've seen that in months!!)
• 7 Dec: V 1 min, 5.5 hrs, 2 min, 1 min
• 6 Dec: V 7 min, 1 min, 3.3 hrs, 1 min, 1 min

Maybe we finally have those pests on the run? ---CH 00:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Guess not, darn it, just saw a vandalism which was hear for 1.6 hours today. ---CH 04:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Einstein and Religion

From Ze'ev Rosenkranz "The Einstein Scrap Book", ISBN 0801872030, p. 89.

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.

Yesselman 19:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

From Max Jammer's "Einstein and Religion"; ISBN: 0691006997; p. 43.

The extent Einstein concurred with the philosophy of Spinoza:

Rejecting the traditional theistic concept of God, Spinoza denied the existence of a cosmic purpose on the grounds that all events in nature occur according to immutable laws of cause and effect. The universe is governed by a mechanical or mathematical order and not according to purposeful or moral intentions. Though he employed the notion of "G-D," Spinoza applied it only to the structure of the order and declared that "neither intellect nor will appertain to G-D's nature." He therefore denied the Judeo-Christian conception of a personal God. What the Bible refers to as divine activities are identified by Spinoza course of nature. G-D is the "infinite substance" having and thought. G-D is devoid of ethical properties, for good and evil human desires. What is commonly called "G-D's will" is identical with the laws of nature. People do not act freely in the sense of having alternatives to their actions; their belief in freedom arises only from their ignorance of the causes of the desires that motivate their actions. The ultimate object of religious devotion can only be the perfect harmony of the universe, and human aspirations must accept the inexorable dictates of the deterministic laws that govern life.

Yesselman 16:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Table

Why don't we have a table in here about Einstein, like Richard Feynman, and most developed biographical articles? Or is it just no one has made one yet? -- Mac Davis ญƛ. 08:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• They are not required and a lot of people think they look ugly and select one quote entirely arbitrarily as a "representative" quote. --Fastfission 16:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Asperger's

For the vague "several researchers at the universities of Cambridge and Oxford", I have substituted the name of the principal researcher. But I am not convinced this belongs here at all. There is a lot of speculation along these lines, much of it published, including questions about the size of various lobes of Einstein's brain etc. But I don't think any of this has been widely accepted in the scientific community. In any case, I am surprised to see such a major thing introduced into the article without discussion on Talk, and with all the documentation coming from BBC news stories! --Macrakis 03:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. The "diagnosis" of Einstein is extremely speculative at best - and let's not get into the controversy about Asperger's diagnoses in general. I've tried to edit this to help keep the pro-Asperger's POV from standing, and I'm not sure the current version is superior in any way to earlier versions - almost every word has had to be hammered out in numerous article revisions rather than discussions here on the talk page. --Krich 03:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I explained some time ago why I feel this entire paragraph should be removed as unverifiable speculation, not to mention an irrelevant distraction in a short biography of Einstein. If someone feels it is terribly important to have this (mis?)-information mentioned somewhere in the Wikipedia, I'd suggest creating a seperate article on "unverifiable speculations concerning Albert Einstein".---CH 03:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow, mathematicians really are amazingly arrogant, unpleasant people to be around.... --Mistress Selina Kyle 04:01, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

We're writing an encyclopedia. The contents should be well-sourced. What's more, they should be well-chosen. Lots and lots of people have speculated about many things about Einstein. But somehow we need to boil this down to a good article. Let's look at what Baron-Cohen himself says. In Essential Difference: Male and Female Brains and the Truth about Autism (p167), he writes "[Einstein and Newton] certainly showed many of the signs of AS, though whether they would have warranted a diagnosis is questionable, since they hgad found a niche in which they could blossom." (my emphasis) So even B-C is not very definitive about it. I also note that the references are to BBC News articles. Piling on anonymous researchers at Oxford and Vanderbilt doesn't help. --Macrakis 04:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The current revision by User:Macrakis seems like a reasonable compromise between the need to keep unverifiable speculations and other possibly inappropriate distractions to a minimum, and the obviously very strong desire on the part of some users to prominently mention this "controversy". I hope that Selina will agree. ---CH 04:22, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The version by Macrakis looks absolutely fine to me as it current reads. I'll not make further edits in this section if this language stands. --Krich 05:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

And of course it did not. I've changed this back to Macrakis' version, as it seems the most concise, accurate, and fair. Selina, you appear to be the only editor here that wants to push the Asperger's language. Honestly, if this keeps up, I'm going to change my stance to one of removing the reference to AS altogether - I was never sure it belonged here in the first place due to its dubious nature. Please work with us in the spirit of compromise, if you'd like your input to stand. I just don't think you are going to be able to get away with pushing a pro-diagnosis POV in this article. --Krich 16:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I see that Selina has reverted to the old POV language once again today. I believe that she is now in violation of the three revert rule, and have told her so on her talk page, after trying several times to get her to discuss this issue on our talk pages or here on this talk page. She refuses to do so with me, or the others that are attempting to work with her on including language that refers to the controversial Asperger's issue without using pro-diagnosis POV wording. --Krich 20:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Could we put the Asperger's stuff in a separate article? Pfalstad 20:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, please! (I too think the Asperger's stuff belongs in a separate article.) ---CH 20:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

P.S. There is (or was and could be again) a Category:Albert Einstein in which someone tried to collect all articles dealing with something Einstein did, or which otherwise referenced Einstein.

Asperger's material absolutely belongs in its own catagory. This is suppose to be a fact-base account on Einstein only, and not saddled with anything that remotely resembles opinion, hypervolie, speculation etc. This Selina should be reminded that its an encyclopedia, not a repository for personal bias. Any intent on trying to shift from that damages the integrety of this medium turns Wikipedia into a website aspiring to be an encyclopedia, rather than just being. P.N.G 20:43, 31 Jan 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.127.170.144 (talk • contribs) 04:44, February 1, 2006 (UTC)

Given the normie's desire to monopolise all beneficial discoveries of history, despite the fact that many gains in the fields of computing (just for instance) are the responsibility of verified, diagnosed Aspies, the speculation should stand. In fact, many reliable sources consider the posthumous diagnosis (and shamefully, if you died in our so-called enlightened English-speaking society before 2000, posthumous diagnosis was as good as you got) factual. Einstein's intelligence was focused entirely upon a pervasive, singular interest, to the point where schoolteachers told his parents he was retarded (see if you can name one of them) and his social skills were underdeveloped. That's two strikes against his being a normie. Strike three is that he apparently believed in not wasting his time choosing clothes to wear for the given day, and thus had a lot of suits that all looked the same (seriously, is there any photograph of him that does not show him in a simple suit?).

Given the rampant abuse that we aspies have to suffer, on top the of the flat-out lies from scum like Dick Wolf, while it might not be prudent to say that Einstein was definitely an Aspie (in spite of this being believed as fact by many credible sources), leaving the theory open to consideration is a must. This man endured much in an inability to buckle down and think like everyone else, and since Asperger's Syndrome is turning out to be nature's way of reminding us that it does not want us all to be the same, I feel that he would happily throw in his lot with we Aspies.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.51.229.98 (talk • contribs) 14:39, February 6, 2006 (UTC)

I concur with the statement above. If you took archive footage of Einstein, Warhol, and Gates, then ran it alongside footage of verified, diagnosed Aspies like myself, you would reach one conclusion. If Einstein was not an Aspie, then he was doing a very good job of impersonating one. That, by the way, is a very popular catchphrase among the plague of adults who should have been diagnosed decades ago. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.51.229.98 (talk • contribs) 11:40, February 8, 2006 (UTC)

World War IV quote

I have changed the quote to what I found in the Calaprice 2005 book. (diff) Ligulem 16:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Einstein's neice

I.Q. (film) is a movie revolving around Einstein's neice Elizabeth Boyd. Is she fictional ? Einstein's only sibling Maja, didn't have children, so is the neice from one of his cousins ? Jay 18:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I got the answer from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Jay 10:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Jay, I believe she's totally fictional. At least, I have seen no references to any niece of Albert Einstein... On, and actually, the name of the character is Catherine Boyd, instead of Elizabeth. At least, this is what I read on IMDB.com. Milena 19:36, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Omissions

While the article is excellent, it misses two important points:

1. The fact that, from an early age, Einstein went off religion (apparently it made no sense to him)
2. His continued work against nuclear warfare in the last 10 years of his life.

203.129.48.8 06:52, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Categorization

From Wikipedia:categorization:

An article with the same name as a category should usually belong only to that category, for instance, Deism belongs only in Category:Deism.

Admitedly it is a guideline, but I think that it is a good one. That is why I moved the categorization to the category. Now it has been moved back. I would like to discuss that matter somewhat. Perhaps the guideline needs some work in this case.

--EMS | Talk 01:55, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure myself; it is strange to have an article on a person have no category other than itself, and it also makes the Albert Einstein category show up a bit strangely in other categories. For example, Albert Einstein, the person, had something important to do with the Manhattan Project, so he should be in Category:Manhattan Project. But when the cats are all in the category Category:Albert Einstein, then he appears as a sub-category of the Manhattan Project. Which isn't quite right. Only the person is meant by such a reference -- the Einstein's refrigerator has nothing to do with the Manhattan Project and shouldn't be in that category at all (though it is by sub-categorization).

I think the problem is that Category:Albert Einstein really means, if it is no so named, "Things associated with Albert Einstein", which is not the same thing as "The human being, Albert Einstein", which is what all of these categories (birth and death dates, etc.) refer to.

--Fastfission 15:27, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Aspergers

What is the relevance of mentioning a spurious mental disease and saying it is alleged to be part of the foundation of Einstein's intellect? This specious malady is only important to numerous male internet users because using reductive reasoning they can self-diagnose themselves just like Asperger's namesake. Unfortunately any criticism of the darling of the so-called 'geek' subculture, apparently this is as chic as an open discussion about who's taking which meds and the last time someone cut themselves for livejournal, only serves to rile up the Ass Pies. Aspergers did not write Einstein's 1905 papers. Einstein wrote them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.53.17.160 (talk • contribs) 23:35, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

• Thank you for your opinion. Please familiarize yourself with our neutral point of view and original research policies. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
• Einstein, Newton, and Asperger Syndrome From Mary Kugler
• Einstein and Newton showed signs of autismfrom the New Scientist
• Einstein and Newton 'had autism'From the BBC

These links are to sources of high standing. I think the theory improves this featured Article. Psychologists of high standing believe Asperger's syndrome is real. Others disagree. Aspergers may be unreal. Assuming that the condition is definitely unreal is unscientific. Barbara Shack 17:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it should go without saying that calling Asperger's Syndrome a "spurious mental disease"/"specious malady" is more than a little insulting to some of us, Mr./Ms. Unsigned User. *bites thumb in Shakespearean manner* thanx. Philolexica

Note to 206.53.17.160

(In reference to Aspergers syndrome and Albert)

1) Please do sign in to be worthy of belief,

2) I must take the side of Miss Barbara Shack here, it is credible information.

3) You have the opportunity here and now on this page to comment before randomly making deletion changes on someones diligent and time consuming effort/ work, to build an encyclopedia, and or debate the Aspergers syndrome topic. That is what this site is about, has been, and always will be. It's not an attempt to destroy information. You may argue your point here.

Thanks in advance Scott File:Gavel.gif22:41:57, 2005-09-10 (UTC)

(BTW I am not the unsigned writer.) What first concerns me is that all three articles are actually coming from the same press release of the same two researchers. They do no more than reproduce each other and neither the BBC nor New Scientist endorse the theory in any way - not that either is qualified to do so. There is no reference to a publication in a peer-reviewed journal, and no indication of whether anyone with expertise in the field *beyond these two researchers* believes that the theory is worth taking seriously. The only clear information is that two researchers say that Einstein *may* have had Asperger's

Second, the evidence cited in the articles appears weak. The Wikipedia article on Asperger's syndrome gives a number of distinctive traits for diagnosis and very few of them have been shown to be true of Einstein.

E.g. Wiki: "People with Asperger's syndrome are often noted for having a highly pedantic way of speaking, using language far more formal and structured than the situation would normally be thought to call for." Now surely someone would have noticed if Einstein was like this? One article says effectively the reverse: that Einstein's lectures were *confusing*. Testing for simply 'problems in communication' glosses over the difference.

Wiki: "The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." Not much evidence of this. The BBC article concedes: "... the German-born scientist made intimate friends, had numerous affairs and spoke out on political issues."

A thorough rebuttal (by an autistic man) with citation of research appears here:

http://www.jonathans-stories.com/non-fiction/undiagnosing.html

At the very least I think it would be appropriate to mention that the Asperger's theory is speculative, has not been peer evaluated, and is disagreed with by prominent researchers (Sowell for one).

--Tdent 10:54, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I've had intimate friends, been politically active... it's these affairs I'm missing out on. *sigh* No, no, no! Stop trying to generalize Asperger's Syndrome! It's a complex neurological condition with no known cause, but more importantly, it sits within an autistic spectrum, within which one autist might have more in common with a neurotypical than another autist. It's a fact that whether or not Einstein had or didn't have Asperger's is indeterminable, and therefore, this shouldn't be an issue of debate. Posthumous diagnosis is controversial by its very nature, and no legitimate scientist is going to come out with a definitive answer. The possibility that Einstein had Asperger's Syndrome is speculation, but on that note, it's widespread speculation with great ramifications -- for living autists more than Albert! Do to the evolution of the English language, people described as "autistic" today don't necessarily have autism; instead, it connotes many qualities and attributes that are associated with autism. There is nothing terrible about a breif mention of a speculative diagnosis, but when addressing Einstein the man, I think more exacting adjectives can be found. Debate on proper diction would, in my opinion, prove much more fruitful than the pointless debate that has ensued thus far. For example, since when has a man's kind and friendly demeanor been "rooted" in his pacifism? Seriously. Philolexica

Gap in the career outline

The career details are incomplete around 1900. It doesn't say when he started work at the patent office. CalJW 05:06, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, the family seems to magically transport itself from Ulm to Munich (where the Luitpoldgymnasium is) without explanation. Presumably they did actually move between the two places - when?

--Tdent 10:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, there is nothing much about the 1905 year. There is a link to it, but some sort of summary needs to be in the article. I came here looking for the history of Einstein's work on Special Relativity. 194.200.237.219 12:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I think there is some unreverted vandalism in the article. Look here [28]; there is a much better discussion of the miracle year. If I have time, I will try to put the missing text back. Pfalstad 17:23, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I fixed this. Pfalstad 22:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks like someone (who was also anonymous) removed vandalism instead of reverting it. I do wish people would check to see what was changed, before cleaning up vandalism. 194.200.237.219 15:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Quotations

User:EarthBoundX5 added a loooong list of quotations and appended a COPYRIGHT notice. I removed the list. EarthBoundX5, please add these quotations to Wikiquotes if they are not in fact copyrighted. (How the heck can quotations by Einstein be copyrighted, anyway? Even by the Hebrew University, much less by this Kevin Harris?). EarthBoundX5's only other contrib has been an apparent hoax article up for AfD.---CH (talk) 19:29, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you made the right call on the removal. Aside from that... quotations can be copyrighted like any text but their use is usually considered "fair use" since they are usually such a small part of the overall work. There are more details at the Wikiquote copyright page if you'd like more information on how copyright law applies to quotations. --Fastfission 12:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Nationality & "who is the greatest"

24.253.120.206 (talk · contribs) made some changes that I reverted and I thought I would explain why.

1. I think the citizenship information was added because of endless disputes as to whether Einstein was German or American or whatever or not. I think it is a sensible thing to leave it in even if it is not ideal, because it stems off problems.
2. I don't know or care who is the "greatest physicist" but I think it is true that Einstein is "widely regarded" as the greatest scientist. I think "widely" here means "more than just the physics community", for one thing, but I also doubt that there is much "hard data" on whether or not Newton or Gauss is considered "better". If there is hard data, it should be added in the article somewhere (and cited) but doesn't need to be in the lead section, much less with an awkward note which references a basically empty statement.

Just my feelings on it, and why I reverted these changes. --Fastfission 02:07, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Frequent vandalism

I've been watching this page for a while and i've seen it being vandalized quite so often. Isn't there any mechanism in wikipedia to prevent changes to a page unless reviewed ? At least for frequently vandalized pages, one would have to spend a nontrivial amount of time checking if someone's added some crap. Manik Raina 13:40, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Good idea tough it would not help much as revision would take time as well. Still, it is an idea and probably the best place to present it is at Village pump. -- Svest 17:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

The problem with this system is that it gets rid of the Wiki philosophy that anyone can edit at any time. There are methods for page protection but those are only used in very limited circumstances. I don't think it's a big deal, it's not usually very hard to undo vandalism. --Fastfission 00:36, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this article seems to be vandalized at least once a day on average. Unfortunately, frequent reversion means that the article is gradually deteriorating over time. Pages can be more or less protected, but this is usually reserved for the highest profile pages like the Wikipedia main page, so I am not optimistic. If it were protected, naturally I'd like to see a nice clean (readable, minimally controversial) version protected. Aye, there's the rub; others will want to protect their own version, possibly with a passion. ---CH (talk) 00:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed folks, thanks for replying. Have a good day Manik Raina 01:58, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I notice that all the vandalism comes from anonymous IP numbers. If Wikipedia editors had to take the single additional step of first logging in—under any pseudonyme they like, even as ridiculous as, say "Wetman"— the thoughtless, spur-of-the-moment vandalism, here and at Leonardo or Michelangelo etc etc, would be largely elimninated, with no loss of anonymity...after all, who is "Wetman"? --Wetman 13:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Introduction

I have to say that I agree with Fastfission, FayssalF, and other users that recent attempts to insert comments into the introduction of this article have been disruptive and should be reverted.

The offenders, who are trying to discuss citizenship, etc. in the first paragraphs, should argue their views in this talk page if they desire instead of continuing to insert badly written material in a way which (in my view) disrupts the flow.

My own view is that Einstein was by his own account about as far from being a "nationalist" as is possible, and that there is in any case little point in explaining at great length various tangled attempts by patriotic citizens of various countries to claim figures like Einstein or Euler, etc., as citizens of Switzerland or wherever. However, if someone wants to argue that this is somehow a terribly important (despite Einstein's own views), let's discuss here where the best place to insert this material into the article might be, in terms of not disrupting what readability the article has left after so many previous careless edits has led to a certain "incoherence creep". ---CH (talk) 00:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Father of Modern Physics?

Hi, 24.253.120.206, I yield to no individual in my admiration of Albert Einstein's scientific work, but I am not sure that any single person really deserves to be called the Father of Modern Physics. Several others, such as Bohr, Heisenberg, Pauli, and Dirac, also played crucial roles in the rise of modern physics. In fact, there are very few cases in modern science in which one person could really be called the undisputed father of any subject. For example, hardly anyone who works in the field of information theory would fail to name Claude Shannon as the undisputed father of their field, but if you ask most scientists who work outside this area of mathematics (but use some concepts such as communication entropy in their work), you will find they are likely to name Norbert Weiner as a second "father" (and others such as John von Neumann also played a role in the events leading up to Shannon's 1948 paper).

Another problem is that according to the usual Wikipedia standards (which unfortunately tends to weigh the opionion of rank ignoramuses equally with that of experts), you can't say that anything about Einstein is undisputed. While few reputable physicists or historians familiar with Einstein's work would fail to agree that Einstein deserves to be called the the father of general relativity or the father of special relativity, in fact both of these titles have been vigorously disputed, beginning with politically inspired hate speech of scientists like Johannes Stark and Philipp Lenard in the 1920s and continuing to various individuals our own time who have axes to grind (see sci.physics.research for a current very silly but long-running thread on this repugnant "argument"). I happen to think this alleged controversy is kept alive by nonscientists with sometimes complicated or obscure extrascientific movitations, which is rather disgusting (and sometimes hilarious), but by Wikipedia standards, it seems that the onl thing which matters is the public controversy, however silly from a scientific or historical point of view, does verifiably exist.

If we accept that we need to remove the word undisputeable, it seems to me that there is no point in keeping the rest of what you wrote. I believe it is quite sufficient, by way of assessing the magnitude of Einstein's scientific achievements, to say that he is regarded as one of the greatest scientists of all time, and in fact one of the most notable figures in intellectual history.

Can you please explain below why you insist on adding this new material to the introduction? ---CH (talk) 06:58, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreement. -- Svest 07:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)  Wiki me up&#153;

Not a big fan of the Father of Modern Physics line either, for the points just raised re: multiple contributors to quantum theory. Gaff 16:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that one who dragged his feet on the full theory of quantum mechanics should be called the father of modern physics. I see him more as the last of the great classical physicists.David R. Ingham 05:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Religious Views

Recent changes made to this section. Some direct quotes added and appreciated. I must wonder about this sentece, however: He showed a clear belief in the God of science. What does that even mean? I think it should probably be either removed or clarified. What are others thoughts? User_talk:Gaff 16:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that every reader should be highly suspicious of quotations attributed to Einstein. To some extent this is true of any celebrity, even living ones (e.g. Penrose), but Einstein quotations pose special problems. Some points to bear in mind:

• Einstein is one of the most (mis)-quoted persons in human history,
• Especially in scientific matters, Einstein often contradicted his earlier pronouncements multiple times,
• After 1920 or so, and especially after he moved to the U.S., there was enormous pressure upon Einstein to use his celebrity to aide various causes, usually by signing some letter or giving reporters a favorable sound bite. Like many people, Einstein liked to be helpful, so despite misgivings, he often obliged. And he often wound up feeling used (or abused) as a result. Pais has a good discussion of this.
• In an extreme case of helping a friend in need, it seems that Einstein once allowed his name to be added as a coauthor to a popular book (the goal was to boost sales in order to feed an impoverished refugee family)--- this book is the source of some well known "Einstein quotations", so in this case, Einstein could even be said to have collaborated in misattributions to him of things he didn't actually write or say! Needless to say, that would be misleading, and taking this story out of context certainly cannot be used to "justify" misattributions.
• In my experience Einstein quoters often have some agenda, e.g. arguing that quantum mechanics doesn't make sense, or that Nazism or the bomb are bad, that God exists, or does not exist, and so on and on and on, by appealing to Einstein's authority, often with little regard to the context in which Einstein said Q, or even whether he really said Q at all. As long as you are aware of this, the agenda (if any) is usually obvious enough.

Since I believe this article should focus on Einstein the man (which mostly means focusing on the aspect of his life which he himself regarded as most important, his contributions to theoretical physics), I would hope that editors would be sensitive to these issues in considering thoughtfully whether to introduce new material, and if so, where and how.

The legend or popular icon aspects are certainly notable, but if they threaten to take over this article, I would prefer discussion of "Einstein the pop culture icon" should be moved to a separate article (or articles). In particular, tracking down the provenance of various quotations attributed to Einstein, might be of some value as an illustration of how people have reacted to the "Einstein the pop culture icon" over the years. If some very persistent and careful reader out there has a lot of time plus copies at hand of all the reputable Einstein biographies, his collected papers, and so forth, it might be worthwhile to collect various alleged quotations, trying to determine their attribution, and writing a separate article. (I suggest calling it Spinning Einstein, but only in jest!) This article should carefully give the provenance of each alleged quotation. Examples:

• you have at hand a copy of paper X or book Y by Einstein, and you can verify directly that he did in fact write Q: add the bibliographic citation to the references section, and where you include Q, mention the citation and if possible the date,
• you have at hand a copy of a reputable biography (e.g. Pais) and can verify that the author believes that Einstein said Q: check the footnotes to see the source, perhaps a personal letter or diary by the person AE was talking to, add the bibliographic citation to the reference section, and where you include Q, explain who AE was talking to, if possible mention the date, and cite the biographer,
• you can verify from primary souces that Q is actually due to someone other than Einstein: add the bibliographic citatation, etc.,
• you can find the first known appearance of alleged quote Q in a highly dubious source, such as a political polemic, a book by an disreputable author, or perhaps a contemporary newspaper article which you can plausibly argue should be considered suspicious.

Another thing to bear in mind when editing this article: above I imagined a thoughtful editor, but as well all know, most edits of this article are either thoughtless (even malicious) or else represent hasty attempts to revert such edits. Incoherence creep is the phenomenon in which text is added by inexperienced writers in a way which breaks up the flow between previous paragraphs, sentences, or ideas, gradually transforming a readable, well-organized article into an incoherent, chaotically disorganized article). This phrase aptly describes the sad history of this article, as we can see on a weekly or even daily basis.---CH (talk) 12:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Asperger's syndrome

I have noticed that there is a tendency for patient advocacy groups for various real and serious conditions to make lists of historical figures or celebs who allegedly suffer from the condition. I have never really understood this agenda (if I am dying from liver cancer, would knowing that celebrity C is also dying from liver cancer really make me feel any better?), but I recognize that such lists are probably well-intentioned. Nonetheless, claims of post-mortem diagnosis are speculative at best, and sometimes are pretty damn absurd, which is the case here. They might be notable in the sense that scurrilious or silly gossip might be notable, but in the case of historical figures like Einstein with genuine claims to notability with go far beyond being the target of gossip, they should not be emphasized unduly.

I have known persons who really do have autism and also Asperger's syndrome. These are conditions which no doubt take an expert to reliably diagnose, but I doubt it takes an expert to doubt that, say, David Letterman has Asperger's syndrome! I have never met Letterman, but I think anyone who has ever seen him on TV, and who has known living individuals who really have been diagnosed autism or Asperger's syndrome, would know at once that David Letterman is not, and has never been, autistic!

The point is that I doubt it takes an expert to recognize that socially fairly normal persons do not have autism. I have seen newsreels of Einstein, I have read reputable biographies such as Pais, and I have even studied contemporary documents such as letters by Einstein, the diaries of Count Kessler (who knew AE socially in Berlin). None of these sources give the slightest hint, in my view, that Einstein could possibly be diagnosed with either of these today by any experienced and reputable physician. In fact, quite the contrary. I can hardly believe that this is even an issue, but I have complained elsewhere about society's tolerance for one the strangest hobbies of certain retired physicians, namely "diagnosing" historical figures such as Lincoln, Napoleon, or Einstein with all kinds of conditions, in flagrant disregard of accepted principles taught in medical school (such as declining to diagnose a patient whom one has not examined personally).

Needless to say, I'd like to see mention of the claim that Einstein was mildly autistic moved well down the article. I think this suggestion is much too silly to deserve mention in the first few paragraphs, given the many much more important aspects of Einstein's biography which clamor for the reader's attention.

CH (talk) 14:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it seems you are imposing your own prejudices about we Aspies. Whether Einstein has or has Asperger's Syndrome is probably less significant than that he displays personality traits which are autistic or at the least autistic-like. As an Aspie, it has long been my conviction that obsession is the most defining aspect of the condition, not social ineptitude. It is this aspect of the "geek syndrome" which gives me a nerdy disposition, which is perceived as such, and not as some social dysfunction. Aspies tend to be bad at "small talk," which is why individuals like myself and presumably like Einstein flurish among other intellectuals. Nonetheless, no Aspie is complete without at least some social quirks and indeed difficulties too, but my reading of Einstein's personal life has proven he's had his share. And personally, having had an admiration for Einstein all my life -- even though I'm an aspiring professor in socio-cultural anthropology (because I love to be in front of lots of people and talk about people) -- there isn't any historical figure with whom I feel more empathy. All that said, I agree with you for the most part: speculation as to whether Einstein was an Aspie should be treated only in passing, if at all; labeling Einstein with a neurological condition is a cheap way of generalizing a complex personality. On the other hand, that Einstein displayed autistic qualities says much about society, notions of normalcy, conformity, and of course, the autistic specturm. Appropriately, Einstein is mentioned in detail in the Asperger Syndrome article. Philolexica

Vandalism, Incoherence Creep, and Page Protection, and a Modest Proposal

Incoherence creep is the phenomenon in which an initally well-organized and readable article, with a clear flow of ideas from one sentence and one paragraph to the next, is gradually destroyed by edits of the following kinds:

• well-intended additions of material by inexperienced editors which breaks up the flow of previous writing, or disturbs an internal organizational scheme (e.g., recent additions discussing Einstein's "national origins"),
• vandalism of the silly or scatological variety (this high-profile article is highly vulnerable to this; to mention just one example, I have noticed that teachers in some computer labs seem to assign a class to look at it, with the result that some students attempt to send real-time "amusing" or hateful messages to each other by editing the article),
• additions of material in pursuance of some agenda which disturbs the balance and flow of the article; examples are too legion to list but include the Tesla freak, persons eager to tear Einstein down by any means, such as insinuating that he "stole" [sic] his theories from others, cranks promoting their own "theories", someone pursuing some Asperger's syndrome agenda),
• careless attempts to revert this kind of edit (sometimes to an inappropriate version allowing earlier damage to survive).

If you have been monitoring this article on a daily basis, you have very likely seen many examples of this kind of edit.

My point is that permitting (almost, one might say, encouraging) frequent vandalism and otherwise minor but bad edits of high profile articles is destructive to the Wikipedia for several reasons:

• it tends to prevent users with expert knowledge from contributing good writing because they wind up spending all their "WP time" trying to correct damage to articles which they or someone else worked hard to whip into shape,
• despite such efforts, incoherence creep tends to gradually damage or destroy articles which at one time were well-organized, accurate, fair, and readable.

Accordingly, I'd like to see this article restored to such a happy state and then protected permanently. Even this would not fix the problem over the long term, since not all admins have scientific or historical expertise or are unbiased when it comes to Einstein, and no doubt some admins would want to unblock the article, and indeed from time to time there might be good reason to add timely material (e.g. to note the current World Year of Physics honoring Einstein).

Does anyone know what is the best way to submit petitions of the kind I have in mind to Wikimedia?

More generally, does anyone know of suitable forums for discussing the Wikipedia model versus the classic Britannica model for creating an encyclopedia? I believe that the world wide web, wiki software, and other technological innovations offer promise for a blend of suitable features from this model which could lead to a "controlled content" encyclopedia which would offer better writing and factual reliability than the current Wikipedia but also greater timeliness (particularly on rapidly advanced technological topics) than a classical paper encyclopedia.

A related question: I am of course aware that I am by no means the only Wikipedia user who feels that Wikimedia will eventually be forced (by rampant vandalism and other destructive edits by anons which are overwhelming the current administration system) to abandon its strange insistence (which is unique to this site, in my experience) on allowing even unregistered users to freely edit content. Given the inevitability of this step, it is in the Wikipedia's best interests that it occur sooner rather than later. Would anyone else here be interested in circulating some kind of petition? Any suggestions for how to do this effectively? Anyone have past experience with previous attempts to nudge Wikimedia in this direction? I think its pretty clear such a major step would have to be approved by Jimbo Wales, in fact I have the impression he is at once the only person who needs to be persuaded and the only person who could veto such a change--- please correct me if I am wrong about that!

Thoughts? ---CH (talk) 14:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Apparently you're going to get your wish; Jimbo plans to have stricter editing rules for some articles. See [29]. I can't find any detail about this proposal on wikipedia itself, though. Also check out Wikipedia:Village pump (perennial proposals)#Abolish_anonymous_users. Pfalstad 15:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, maybe not. At any rate, if you want an encyclopedia that you can edit but other people can't, Wikipedia isn't the place for you. I'm not sure that the "wiki" philosophy of "anyone can edit" is a workable approach, but it does seem like the number of janitors around here exceeds the number of vandals. An important question is "who gets bored first". --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:07, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Bored? Who? Nothing! Bird Flu? Nothing! -- Svest 02:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Hi, Jpgordon, if you read what I wrote more carefully, I actually mentioned several proposals, some less controversial than others, and I asked for suggestions about where might be the most suitable place to discuss these. If someone can suggest such a venue, perhaps we can continue the discussion there. OK?---CH (talk) 21:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Counter Vandalism Unit

Wikipedia:Counter Vandalism Unit

Wikipedia is under 24/7 vandalism attack. Pages get blanked, replaced, overwritten in a destructive manner, however pages are reverted/removed/restored before you even know it as a result of "janators". "Anyone can edit" comes with his problem yes, if it werent "anyone can edit", who determines who can edit and who cant ;). I understand your frustration, however sometimes it is necesary to take drastic mesures against some more notable vandals. --Cool Cat ^Talk 11:20, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Link vandalism

Hi all, as an example of vandalism apparently designed to degrade this article but remain undetected, note the recent edits by 206.254.117.182 in Texas, which consisted of dewikifying the introduction.---CH (talk) 22:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Is Einstein German?

Is there any evidence that he has German ancestory? Ethnic German ancestory. I'm trying to remove all Austrian, Jewish and Swiss Americans from the German American category. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.141.217.93 (talk • contribs) 04:37, November 1, 2005 (UTC)

Both of his parents were Jewish. He has no ethnic German ancestry.Vulturell 09:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Uhm, Germans who born in jewish family are not Germans? --128.214.69.47 11:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

This "controversy" is an example of why I deplore inflammatory edits to this article. 128.214.69.47 from Helsinki, I am probably more sympathetic to your politics than to those of Vulturell (to judge from the comments above), but I wish you would avoid adding potentially inflammatory characterizations of Einstein's political views to this article. The 00:32, 6 November 2005 version is noticeably less inflammatory re Palestine than versions which you wrote. Please, let's all keep the focus on Einstein the man, particularly his scientific work, rather than attempting to hijack Einstein the icon to promote this political view or that. TIA ---CH (talk) 20:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Marion?

It's very possible I'm missing somethere here, but I can't understand who this "Marion" in Albert_Einstein#Political_views is. There is no other mention of a Marion in the article. Does anybody know what this refers to?

--Recnilgiarc 19:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe this may be a garbled reference to Marian Robeson, Paul Robeson's mother. I recently read a biography of Robeson but don't recall this episode being mentioned! I will remove it pending confirmation. Thanks for pointing out this problem. ---CH (talk) 19:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Ahha, that could explain it. I ran across Paul Robeson after Googling "Marion Einstein", but I didn't think to check his mother's name. Thanks!

--Recnilgiarc 19:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Done. Paul Robeson's association with Einstein re civil rights and peace initiatives is documented elsewhere, and putting up Marian Robeson is certainly the kind of thing Einstein would have done, but I can't find independent verification of this right now. If anyone has the time to borrow from your local library reputable biograpies of Einstein and of Robeson to comb through for references to this episode, I'd be grateful, since if verified it adds a nice human touch to the article. Searching collections of Robeson's writings might also uncover further verification of his association with Einstein. Books like Susan Robeson's The Whole World in his Hands might have some pictures of Einstein with Robeson. Speaking of which, it would be nice to have a page collecting public domain or fair-use images of Einstein. I tried to obtain permission from the copyright holder of a very nice picture of Einstein sitting with Leon Infeld, so far without success. Too bad since it's one of the few pictures showing Einstein in a relaxed social situation (his customary expression ranges from bored to uncomfortable). I'd also love to be able to upload the picture with his sister Maya and the picture taken by a passerby in Berlin just days before Einstein left Germany forever, in which one can perhaps detect a bit of the distress and bewilderment he must have been feeling.---CH (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I have one quibble regarding the word friend, which is much overused with respect to Einstein. People who knew Einstein agree he had very few friends in the sense of close confidants. Besso, Born, and Infeld could probably be described as friends, Bohr as a much respected colleague, Lorentz and Mach as respected elders (in his early years), Szilard as someone whose company Einstein sometimes enjoyed (there is no question he enjoyed the famous refrigerator episode) and sometimes merely endured, Robeson, Painleve, and many others as politically prominent figures with whom Einstein discussed political issues and even collaborated with, at least to the extent of signing open letters and so forth. Robeson is someone he met with several times and corresponded with concerning social/political issues on which they shared common views, which is a bond of a kind, but I doubt there was a close personal friendship. I would prefer to see that paragraph rewritten to describe their occasional collaboration to further social justice and world peace, issues about which both men cared deeply.---CH (talk) 20:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Font problems

This talk page keeps growing, and an incorrectly coded signature of one participant, User:Gaff, messed up the fonts on the previous version of this page. (I have left a note on the talk page of that user asking him to fix the problem with his signature.) I have fixed the fonts in Talk:Albert_Einstein/Archive/2 and moved recent discusions to a new archive page (see link above).---CH (talk) 22:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Use of the word "creation"

Is it appropriate that the word "creation" is being used to describe the universe as part of an objective encyclopedia article?

From the third paragraph:

"His reverence for all creation, his belief in the grandeur..."

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Funny Fins (talk • contribs) 15:32, December 3, 2005 (UTC)

Einstein and Immanuel Kant

Does anyone who really knows Einstein's life know if he read Kant at all? I ask this for several reasons. First, Einstein said the following:

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

— Albert Einstein, Religion and Science (article in Ideas and Opinions)

Here's a quote from Kant:

Intuitions without ideas are blind, and ideas without intuitions are empty.

— Immanuel Kant, Critique of Pure Reason)

Kant means "a type of experience" from what has been translated as "intuition" here.

They're obvious not exactly the same, but they are similar enough for me to think they either come from a common source or one (Einstein's) is adopted from the other (Kant's).

Another reason I think Einstein might be affected by Kant (or maybe the German Idealists in general??) is because of the importance of space and time in Kant's philosophy - they are the prerequisites to knowledge, and in this way we can know the structure of future experiences before we've even experienced them (we know that we will always experience them in time).

My second reason is probably off target, but I think the issue I brought up with the quotes is interesting - I welcome any responses.

--FranksValli 08:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Einstein read Kant's Critique of Pure Reason at the age of 13. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.216.64.159 (talk • contribs) 19:10, December 7, 2005 (UTC)

bio by Pais, "Subtle..." , p 13, says he first read Kant in high school GangofOne 07:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

1889: Meets 21 year old student Max Talmud, introduces Einstein to key science and philosophy texts including Kant’s "Critique of pure reason" [30] --24.253.120.206 13:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Age 10. Did he understand it? GangofOne 05:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

That source, which is posted above, does not say. This site states that he understood it at the age of 13, which is one of the reasons why the psychometrician estimates his ratio IQ to be 183. [31] --24.253.120.206 12:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Some V Stats

Big improvement in the past few days, keep it up! :-)

From the history page:

• 10 Dec (so far): V < 1 min
• 9 Dec: blanked for 1 min
• 8 Dec: no V (first time I've seen that in months!!)
• 7 Dec: V 1 min, 5.5 hrs, 2 min, 1 min
• 6 Dec: V 7 min, 1 min, 3.3 hrs, 1 min, 1 min

Maybe we finally have those pests on the run? ---CH 00:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Guess not, darn it, just saw a vandalism which was hear for 1.6 hours today. ---CH 04:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Einstein and Religion

From Ze'ev Rosenkranz "The Einstein Scrap Book", ISBN 0801872030, p. 89.

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.

Yesselman 19:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

From Max Jammer's "Einstein and Religion"; ISBN: 0691006997; p. 43.

The extent Einstein concurred with the philosophy of Spinoza:

Rejecting the traditional theistic concept of God, Spinoza denied the existence of a cosmic purpose on the grounds that all events in nature occur according to immutable laws of cause and effect. The universe is governed by a mechanical or mathematical order and not according to purposeful or moral intentions. Though he employed the notion of "G-D," Spinoza applied it only to the structure of the order and declared that "neither intellect nor will appertain to G-D's nature." He therefore denied the Judeo-Christian conception of a personal God. What the Bible refers to as divine activities are identified by Spinoza course of nature. G-D is the "infinite substance" having and thought. G-D is devoid of ethical properties, for good and evil human desires. What is commonly called "G-D's will" is identical with the laws of nature. People do not act freely in the sense of having alternatives to their actions; their belief in freedom arises only from their ignorance of the causes of the desires that motivate their actions. The ultimate object of religious devotion can only be the perfect harmony of the universe, and human aspirations must accept the inexorable dictates of the deterministic laws that govern life.

Yesselman 16:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Table

Why don't we have a table in here about Einstein, like Richard Feynman, and most developed biographical articles? Or is it just no one has made one yet? -- Mac Davis ญƛ. 08:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• They are not required and a lot of people think they look ugly and select one quote entirely arbitrarily as a "representative" quote. --Fastfission 16:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Asperger's

For the vague "several researchers at the universities of Cambridge and Oxford", I have substituted the name of the principal researcher. But I am not convinced this belongs here at all. There is a lot of speculation along these lines, much of it published, including questions about the size of various lobes of Einstein's brain etc. But I don't think any of this has been widely accepted in the scientific community. In any case, I am surprised to see such a major thing introduced into the article without discussion on Talk, and with all the documentation coming from BBC news stories! --Macrakis 03:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. The "diagnosis" of Einstein is extremely speculative at best - and let's not get into the controversy about Asperger's diagnoses in general. I've tried to edit this to help keep the pro-Asperger's POV from standing, and I'm not sure the current version is superior in any way to earlier versions - almost every word has had to be hammered out in numerous article revisions rather than discussions here on the talk page. --Krich 03:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I explained some time ago why I feel this entire paragraph should be removed as unverifiable speculation, not to mention an irrelevant distraction in a short biography of Einstein. If someone feels it is terribly important to have this (mis?)-information mentioned somewhere in the Wikipedia, I'd suggest creating a seperate article on "unverifiable speculations concerning Albert Einstein".---CH 03:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow, mathematicians really are amazingly arrogant, unpleasant people to be around.... --Mistress Selina Kyle 04:01, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

We're writing an encyclopedia. The contents should be well-sourced. What's more, they should be well-chosen. Lots and lots of people have speculated about many things about Einstein. But somehow we need to boil this down to a good article. Let's look at what Baron-Cohen himself says. In Essential Difference: Male and Female Brains and the Truth about Autism (p167), he writes "[Einstein and Newton] certainly showed many of the signs of AS, though whether they would have warranted a diagnosis is questionable, since they hgad found a niche in which they could blossom." (my emphasis) So even B-C is not very definitive about it. I also note that the references are to BBC News articles. Piling on anonymous researchers at Oxford and Vanderbilt doesn't help. --Macrakis 04:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The current revision by User:Macrakis seems like a reasonable compromise between the need to keep unverifiable speculations and other possibly inappropriate distractions to a minimum, and the obviously very strong desire on the part of some users to prominently mention this "controversy". I hope that Selina will agree. ---CH 04:22, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The version by Macrakis looks absolutely fine to me as it current reads. I'll not make further edits in this section if this language stands. --Krich 05:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

And of course it did not. I've changed this back to Macrakis' version, as it seems the most concise, accurate, and fair. Selina, you appear to be the only editor here that wants to push the Asperger's language. Honestly, if this keeps up, I'm going to change my stance to one of removing the reference to AS altogether - I was never sure it belonged here in the first place due to its dubious nature. Please work with us in the spirit of compromise, if you'd like your input to stand. I just don't think you are going to be able to get away with pushing a pro-diagnosis POV in this article. --Krich 16:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I see that Selina has reverted to the old POV language once again today. I believe that she is now in violation of the three revert rule, and have told her so on her talk page, after trying several times to get her to discuss this issue on our talk pages or here on this talk page. She refuses to do so with me, or the others that are attempting to work with her on including language that refers to the controversial Asperger's issue without using pro-diagnosis POV wording. --Krich 20:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Could we put the Asperger's stuff in a separate article? Pfalstad 20:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, please! (I too think the Asperger's stuff belongs in a separate article.) ---CH 20:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

P.S. There is (or was and could be again) a Category:Albert Einstein in which someone tried to collect all articles dealing with something Einstein did, or which otherwise referenced Einstein.

Asperger's material absolutely belongs in its own catagory. This is suppose to be a fact-base account on Einstein only, and not saddled with anything that remotely resembles opinion, hypervolie, speculation etc. This Selina should be reminded that its an encyclopedia, not a repository for personal bias. Any intent on trying to shift from that damages the integrety of this medium turns Wikipedia into a website aspiring to be an encyclopedia, rather than just being. P.N.G 20:43, 31 Jan 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.127.170.144 (talk • contribs) 04:44, February 1, 2006 (UTC)

Given the normie's desire to monopolise all beneficial discoveries of history, despite the fact that many gains in the fields of computing (just for instance) are the responsibility of verified, diagnosed Aspies, the speculation should stand. In fact, many reliable sources consider the posthumous diagnosis (and shamefully, if you died in our so-called enlightened English-speaking society before 2000, posthumous diagnosis was as good as you got) factual. Einstein's intelligence was focused entirely upon a pervasive, singular interest, to the point where schoolteachers told his parents he was retarded (see if you can name one of them) and his social skills were underdeveloped. That's two strikes against his being a normie. Strike three is that he apparently believed in not wasting his time choosing clothes to wear for the given day, and thus had a lot of suits that all looked the same (seriously, is there any photograph of him that does not show him in a simple suit?).

Given the rampant abuse that we aspies have to suffer, on top the of the flat-out lies from scum like Dick Wolf, while it might not be prudent to say that Einstein was definitely an Aspie (in spite of this being believed as fact by many credible sources), leaving the theory open to consideration is a must. This man endured much in an inability to buckle down and think like everyone else, and since Asperger's Syndrome is turning out to be nature's way of reminding us that it does not want us all to be the same, I feel that he would happily throw in his lot with we Aspies.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.51.229.98 (talk • contribs) 14:39, February 6, 2006 (UTC)

I concur with the statement above. If you took archive footage of Einstein, Warhol, and Gates, then ran it alongside footage of verified, diagnosed Aspies like myself, you would reach one conclusion. If Einstein was not an Aspie, then he was doing a very good job of impersonating one. That, by the way, is a very popular catchphrase among the plague of adults who should have been diagnosed decades ago. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.51.229.98 (talk • contribs) 11:40, February 8, 2006 (UTC)

World War IV quote

I have changed the quote to what I found in the Calaprice 2005 book. (diff) Ligulem 16:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)