Wikipedia talk:Proposed guideline for magic methods

As an example on how an article that follow established format might look.

First, I found two articles that looked like this (these are the complete original texts):

Steve Fearson's Cig. Levitation: This trick consists of an invisible thread that the magician wraps around his body and sticks to himself with magicians wax. He then manipulates it to give the illusion that the cigarette is floating.

And another:

Steve fearson's Area 51: This is performed exactly the same way as his cigarette levitation, except it adds the ending of the "ufo" flying off into the distance.

What is that supposed to be? There is absolutely nothing of value in neither of the articles. Okey, so thread can be used to animate stuff, but that was known long before Fearson, so why is this under separate headings, and not filed under the more general heading "Thread"? As it turns out, there are a valid reason to have both him and the first example (but not the second) in an encyclopedia - but that's nothing you would know from the examples above. Also, the author has put another title than the original on the piece, without explaining why. No clue on when it was created either. And, there is not even an attempt to detail any historical lineage. Do the author of the article want us to believe that there are no precedents before Fearson?

What is needed is to change the title back to the original. Put a correct date on it's creation. Give a proper description of the effect (how it appear to a spectator). Put it in the right context, so it is possible to track its importance and historic lineage, and point out what the creator has added to the method's predecessors. The second example adds nothing new, viewed in a historic perspective, so it should be merged with the first example.

Compare the examples above to this: Fearson's floating cigarette.

If anyone complains about a secret is revealed, it is quite easy to show that this description follow established pubishing ethics and the industry standard, and by that it should be easy to stifle any flame wars.

The only thing missing from the edited and corrected version is Steve Fearson's permission. I could ask him myself, but he would probably refuse to give permission just because it was me asking, since he despise me after a discussion at the Genii forum. I've got nothing but respect for Fearson as a creator, but I'm a bit ambivalent when it comes to his person. In any case, his work is worthy of a proper description, instead of the original articles. --TStone 23:43, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another example

Yet another example on how it can look when following the established format:

The original text at Balducci levitation was: The Balducci levitation is a simple magic trick, credited to Ed Balducci. It produces the illusion of a person briefly levitating a few inches above the ground. It is a popular illusion with magicians because it can be performed impromptu and without special equipment.

Magician David Blaine performs this trick. On television, his act, which features reactions of the audience, is intercut with shots of him levitating with hidden mechanical assistance. This allows him to appear to have both feet quite a few inches above the ground in certain shots, something impossible with the Balducci levitation. The controversy among magicians about Blaine's television specials focuses on this, as some consider it to violate one of the rules of the television performance of magic: that the at-home television audience sees exactly what a live audience would see.

The illusionist is simply standing on the tip-toe of the foot farthest from the audience. That foot is concealed from view of the audience by the foot nearest to the audience and by the illusionist's clothing. The effectiveness of this trick is dependent on restricting the audience's point-of-view and being aware of the body's angle with respect to the viewers.

And it had an external link to a magic-fan page that didn't add anything relevant. Problems: It talked more about how Blaine uses the TV-medium than the illusion - something that should be on the Blaine page instead. No credits, dates or sources. No hints on why this illusion is important. Not formatted properly.

Compare the text above with: Balducci levitation --TStone 15:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More examples

Detachable thumb

Suggestion

Generally, Wiki policies are developed by writing the policy page as closely as possible to the desired final policy, then discussing changes to it on the discussion page. Most of the current 'policy' page is discussion and arguments in support of having a policy, all of which should be on this discussion page, and deleted from the policy page. Write what you think the policy should be, on that page, and move everything else that isn't a necessary part of the policy here, where it can be discussed. Aumakua 17:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I just wanted some kind of input from at least 2-3 persons before doing any real work. I'll have it ready within 2 days. --TStone 18:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Importance

I'm having a hard time finding the need for this proposed policy seeing that Wikipedia already has a copyright policy (WP:C). I feel that the argument of ethics is very subjective and I wonder if policy can effectually be codified based on someone's concept thereof. That TStone thinks that certain publication of magic methods here which "[he's] seen so far are very wrong" is an aesthetic and not really something that can or should be governed by policy. I appreciate what the editor is endeavoring but I feel that the best way to achieve this would be to properly edit the questionable articles so that precedence, not policy, is the model. -- Krash 17:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but you are wrong here. The separation of the creator and his creation is neither a trivial matter nor an aestetic opinion - but a fundamental issue. We are in a law-less land here. The rights of magic creators are not yet defined by the copyright laws, meaning that it's neither allowed nor prohibited to steal magicians intellectual properties - the law says nothing at all in the matter.

Compare: Two creators work several years in forfilling an artistic vision. Both their work is ripped off and misrepresented at the Wiki. One is thrown out and the other is kept. Why the difference? Because the painter's rights are defined in a big book while the magician's rights are undefined - that's the only difference - a small amount of ink on a paper.

Now, I'm well aware that it is close to impossible to avoid intellectual theft. But what should be possible is to have some kind of guideline or policy to make sure that the material isn't misrepresented. As a minimum at least; that the name of the creator is attached to his creation. In most of the cases, there is little reward for the creator's within the field, even for the most famous ones, except for getting their names reccorded. Take away that, and there's nothing left.

The respected publishers of magic technical litterature follows a set of simple rules. I don't know it they are codified enough for the Wikipedia, but they are codified enough for being of a practical value on a daily basis. When the legal system adds definitions to the copyright laws, they try to make it as close as possible to industry standards. It might still take 10-20 years before the intellectual rights of magicians are legally defined - but when that happens, who want to go back and re-edit so many years of rip-offs? Isn't it easier to follow the standards from the beginning?

Or on a more pragmatic level, if someone's creation is deemed important enough to be mentioned here, shouldn't its creator be deemed as equally (or more) important? Or viewed from the other side, if a creator is deemed unimportant, shouldn't his creations be unimportant as well?

Oh well... I will put together a proper proposal for a guideline or policy now. I'll post it within two days. --TStone 18:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that a policy is necessary here—I think that most of editors here are quite interested in supporting our fundamental policies on verifiability and original research, and would agree that verifiable information about the creator of a magical illusion definitely belongs in each illusion article. In articles where the illusion isn't sourced, I imagine that it is because the creator/inventor was not known to the article's writer—not because there is any intent to deprive the illusion's creator of credit.

Most of the debates about magical methods seem to center on the appropriateness of revealing the secret to a trick at all...and that question seems to have been settled in favour of revealing verifiable information.

From a philosophical standpoint, the difference between a painting and a magic trick would seem to be the difference between a work protected by copyright and a trade secret. Methods are treated very differently from works. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

My biggest concern with Wikipedia:WikiProject Magic is that Wikipedia is not a magic encyclopedia. If any policy/guidelines are implemented I would hope that notability and importance are taken into consideration so that things don't become indiscriminate. (see my comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Magic#Notability) -- Krash 19:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A question of content

I oppose this policy. The article on every method of any sort should list its creator, if known - but that's just a matter of content that anyone can fix. In the Statue of Liberty example, it's likely the original contributor simply didn't know who invented the method. We have on rare occasions suppressed inessential content in the interest of protecting an individual from significant harm, but this is nothing but pushing the conventional practices of the magician subculture onto our editor pool at large. We don't have copyright rules because we believe an author's work should not be reused without permission - we have them because we don't want an author to sue the hell out of us under the law. I think this type of document would make an excellent guideline on how to write a good article about a magic method, but I don't feel a limiting policy is appropriate. Deco 20:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]