Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Selfconsistent electromagnetic constants

Selfconsistent electromagnetic constants

Selfconsistent electromagnetic constants (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Whole article is WP:SYN. Steve (talk) 20:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

• Delete and redirect, per nomination. There are many references, but they don't appear to refer to a group of "self-consistent electromagnetic constants". Instead, they talk about the use of individual constants. Not quite sure where this should point to. Maxwell's equations seems to have the best overlap with the article's subject matter. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 21:30, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I see, you don’t like “vacuum wave impedance” proposed by Stratton (American applyied physicist), so you want to delete the article..., and you are the theorist wich used the CGS units. Note that, the term “electromagnetic constants” was used in the first part of 20-th century (see Tamm). However, even Soviet theorist Tamm considering the LC circuit should to use the SI units..., but great Tamm considered the resonance frequency only, but not “characteristic impedance”... The athours of lower scale, for example Сена Л.А. (Sena L.A.) even in late 80-ties wroute that “there are NO any WAVE VACUUM impedance”. You are with Sena, but not with delicate Tamm. Farthermore, even Zel'dovich, B.Y. (2008), one of the former Soviet talanted theorist now returns to the “characteristic impedance”...195.47.212.108 (talk) 06:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Strange to say, you Christopher Thomas are the applied phisicist engaged in the engeneering field “CMOS Image Sensors” and you don’t like electrodynamics constants in general and “characteristic impedance” partially, which are out of scop of your proffesional interest and education...195.47.212.108 (talk) 10:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. I'm only an amateur scientist, but this seems to check out. At Wikipedia, there is going to have to have some degree of summarizing and synthesis in hard-core science articles like this one. Bearian (talk) 17:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
• Delete. Babble that adds nothing to useful physics. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:44, 11 October 2009 (UTC).

Good "babble" that opposites the "feeld theory" (an analog of "not even wrong")...

Note, that in the CGS units the standard field approach considers that

$\epsilon _{0}=\mu _{0}=1,\$

and electromagnetic constants are DIMENSIONLESS. This leads to "absence" of the characteristic impedance

$\rho _{0}={\sqrt {\frac {\mu _{0}}{\epsilon _{0}}}}=1.\$

However, in the article is shown, that electromagnetic constant plays the dominant role in electrodynamics and determine the vacuum properties. Furthermor, it is shown trhat in the CGS units these constants are not equal to "one":

$\epsilon _{0}=1/4\pi$

$\mu _{0}=4\pi /c^{2}$

$\rho _{0}={\sqrt {\frac {\mu _{0}}{\epsilon _{0}}}}=4\pi /c.\$195.47.212.108 (talk) 06:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. Original research is not acceptable in WP. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC).

• Delete: This appears to be an attempt at a grand synthesis of concepts that are already covered in several Wikipedia articles. To the extent that verifiable statements or reliable sources in this article do not duplicate material already in other articles, they should be moved, and adapted as necessary, to the appropriate articles. However, this should not exist as a separate article in Wikipedia. Finell (Talk) 22:01, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
• Delete as original synthesis. - 2/0 (cont.) 22:30, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
• Delete Seems to be original synthesis without notability. Neither standard internet searches nor my printed reference materials indicate that this presentation of material is canonical, and it overlaps substantially with other articles which present related topics more clearly. Ben Kidwell (talk) 15:40, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
• Comment Ultimately this article would need to be drastically overhauled. I can detect an unequivocal point of view being pushed, in that I can't see the basis for the categorization of these constants into a primary and a secondary group. In my view, claiming that the speed of light is more fundamental than the magnetic permeability is akin to saying that the speed of sound in a solid rod is a more fundamental constant of the rod material than the density of that material. As for the 377 Ohms for vacuum impedance, this is the interesting bit. I have seen it derived in relation to the space in the immediate vicinity of a transmission line. The derivation involves inductance in relation to a phenomenon that primarily involves capacitance, and if my memory serves me correct, the derivation depends on the geometry being two long wires that are very close together. As such, I most certainly can't see the 377 Ohms as being a more fundamental constant of free space in general, than the electric permittivity or the magnetic permeability. Nevertheless, the 377 Ohms of impedance in free space is a very interesting concept, and it is sourced. It is a thorn in the neck for anti-aetherists due to the fact that it implies a dielectric nature for space, and I would hope that this isn't the real motive that is driving those who wish to delete the article lock, stock, and barrel. Perhaps an attempt should first be made at neutralizing the article. Failing that, if the article is finally deleted, I would like to see the 377 Ohms being placed in an alternative article, perhaps about transmission lines, if it is not already mentioned there. David Tombe (talk) 02:13, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The speed of light is more fundamental than magnetic constant by traditions from the one hand (so it happens by historically). From the other hand, the speed of light is the "upper limit" of velocity in our Universe, and it is connected with other dielectric and magnetic constants by relation $c=1/{\sqrt {\mu _{0}\epsilon _{0}}}$. Ulternatively, the electromagnetic vacuum impedance $\rho _{0E}={\sqrt {\mu _{0E}}}/\epsilon _{0E}$ and gravitational characteristic impedance $\rho _{G}={\sqrt {\mu _{G}}}/\epsilon _{G}$ doesn't LIMITING the characteristic impedances in both cases (electromagnetic and gravitational).195.47.212.108 (talk) 06:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

This is one of the limiting cases of characteristic impedance, and is already described at impedance of free space. The derivation is presented in pretty much any electromagnetics course. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 02:33, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Note that, the article characteristic impedance considers “classical case” only. Furthermore, the transmission line is the partial case of general LC circuit, or “electromagnetic resonator” (see Feinmann lectures for example). The QUANTUM case is considered in the article Quantum electromagnetic resonator. There are NO any DERIVATION in the article impedance of free space..., but DEFINITIONS only.195.47.212.108 (talk) 05:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)