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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Modelmotion (talk | contribs) at 04:24, 2 October 2009 (→EphBlog). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

EphBlog

EphBlog (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Nonnotable website. It's a blog about Williams College, has only been mentioned in the campus paper and the local newspapers (and not as the subject of an article, just in passing), and appears not to be notable outside the Williams community. NawlinWiki (talk) 02:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two of the sources cited ARE independent of Williams College: The Berkshire Eagle (which google news says has cited the source 5 times), and North Adams Transcript (4 times). And EphBlog itself is independent from Williams College, though it covers that beat. So independence of sources seems not to be an issue. --Milowent (talk) 05:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)--Milowent (talk) 05:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd assumed those sources to be school papers but I've gone and checked them out and you're correct. However, The Berkshire Eagle and the North Adams Transcript (owned by the same company and servicing the same area) appear to have run the stories as "local interest" pieces, attributing no greater significance to them than that they happened to someone local. I see your argument, but on the other hand they're really on the level of "Local boy wins big in spelling bee" kind of coverage. I'm not sure the coverage is either significant or independent; the papers have a vested interest in providing a certain number of local interest stories regardless of their newsworthiness. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:14, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Local papers cover local stories, there's nothing new about that, and this blog seems to have broken a few stories of primarily local and alumni interest. I'd say the local papers are independent enough, but whether the coverage is significant I have trouble saying since I don't have pay-access to their archives.--Milowent (talk) 05:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So, we have established that at least two of the sources are "independent" of EphBlog and "reliable," The Eagle and The Transcript. (The fact that both papers are owned by the same company is no more relevant than the fact that The New York Times and The Boston Globe are.) Can we also agree that the Williams Record is as well? First, it is "independent" of EphBlog. (I am happy to provide further argument/evidence of this point if needed.) Second, it is "reliable." (It is true that it is a college newspaper, but my understanding is that college papers are treated as reliable by Wikipedia. Can anyone provide a citation to the contrary? I think that the usual dispute is whether or not they are independent of the schools that they cover.) Summary: We have three different reliable, independent sources each providing multiple articles which mention EphBlog. Once we have established that, we can move on to the question of whether or not these article meet the criteria of "significant coverage," which, I agree, is a trickier issue. David.Kane (talk) 11:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
DustFormsWords cites WP:N but I would think that, since EphBlog is a blog, that Web content is the more appropriate reference. Is that fair? Editors can check the page for themselves, but the key portion is "web-specific content is deemed notable based on meeting any one of the following criteria."
  1. The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself.
This phrasing is, obviously, not that different from the wording used in WP:N but I just wanted to highlight it to see if other editors agreed that this was the appropriate standard. The Eagle, Transcript and Record are all completely "independent of the site itself" and have referenced EphBlog in "multiple non-trivial published works." David.Kane (talk) 12:56, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
WP:WEB is just a clarification of WP:N. The issues under your WP:WEB phrasing are that EphBlog has not been the "subject" of them - it's been referenced in passing - and whether the published works are "non-trivial". - DustFormsWords (talk) 22:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect. Although some of the articles just mention EphBlog is passing, it is the central subject in, for example, these three[1][2][3]. In some of the other articles, EphBlog's importance is somewhere between passing and central. David.Kane (talk) 00:40, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All right, I'll give you that, the sources are good. Well done! Which leaves me with nothing but the feeling that a blog whose subject matter is confined entirely to the doings of a single educational institution simply cannot possibly be considered notable. - DustFormsWords (talk) 01:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a very experienced editor, but I thought that the issue is not what you (or I) "considered notable." The issue is WP:N. EphBlog meets that standard. If you think it is a bad standard, then you should seek to change it, not delete this article. David.Kane (talk) 04:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, no - and I should say, I've got only the highest gratitude for the excellent contributions you've made to this debate, David.Kane, thank you! - but meeting WP:N only creates a presumption of notability. So something can meet WP:N and still, on its individual merits, not be notable. I'm arguing that that's the case here. It's a weak argument but not one entirely without worth. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:35, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But the sources are independent as the discussion following his !vote shows. --Milowent (talk) 12:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete If three small independent sources all write articles about the other two, that doesn't make any of them independently notable. That isn't exactly what's going on here, but that's the concept. Miami33139 (talk) 02:44, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
First, whether the sources are "small" has nothing to do with the issue. Please read WP:N. Th sources must be reliable. We have established that they are. According to WP:N, there is no difference between an article in the Berkshire Eagle and an article in the New York Times. Both have equal standing as far as WP:N is concerned. (I admit that the standing of a college paper without a Wikipedia entry is more controversial.) Second, what does your hypothetical have to do with this case? We have three reliable sources, each of which has written about EphBlog on multiple occasions. Two of those sources have Wikipedia entries themselves! If they are reliable and independent, then what is the grounds for deletion? David.Kane (talk) 13:23, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The issue should not be whether you (or I) think that EphBlog is "notable enough." The issue is: Does EphBlog meet WP:N? I think it does. What specific aspects of WP:N do you think it fails? David.Kane (talk) 14:08, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Of course I mean that the topic does not meet our notability guidelines. I don't care to be much more specific as I don't like how you're badgering editors whose opinion or judgment differs from your own. --ElKevbo (talk) 14:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies! Not my intention to badger. Please WP:AGF. In some of my comments above, I was merely trying to correct some mistakes about whether or not, for example, The Berkshire Eagle and the North Adams Transcript were reliable sources, whether or not they are independent and so on. I am sorry if that came across as badgering. But now that those questions are settled (I think!), I really don't understand which specific aspect of WP:N we are missing. Would it be helpful to the discussion if I were to go through the points one by one? I am happy to do so. David.Kane (talk) 14:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you explain what "fail validation" means? It is true that, for some of them, you need access to view them, either via a library or some other method. But they still exist and mention EphBlog, as this | Google News search demonstrates. EphBlog is mentioned in every article. Is there a specific article you have questions about? David.Kane (talk) 14:08, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - sources have been added to article (which do reference EphBlog, not sure what Alastair Rae is referring to), seems sufficiently notable, and !votes for deletion are highly subjective, so I can't say it should be deleted. --Milowent (talk) 14:42, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - To establish that this blog is notable enough to be the subject of a Wikipedia article, I think we need sources that are from beyond Williams College and its immediate surrounding area to discuss it (and that discussion needs to be more than a passing reference). This sounds like something that has gained some local notability, but is not notable in the wider world. Blueboar (talk) 15:02, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You are certainly correct that EphBlog is not "notable in the wider world." But WP:N does not require that. Indeed, if it did, tens of thousands of Wikipedia pages would need to be deleted! Recall the exact language of WP:N: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." There is no requirement that a topic be notable at the state, national or international level. Local notability (with "significant coverage" in "reliable sources" is enough. David.Kane (talk) 15:15, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If local notability could never be enough, a majority of the local newspaper articles on wikipedia would be subject to deletion. This may be a slightly tougher case, though. I wonder, if EphBlog didn't have "blog" in its name if it would be faring better in this AfD, which isn't boding well for its survival.--Milowent (talk) 15:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify: By "few hundred more words," you mean adding to the length/detail of the EphBlog entry using the information provided in those news stories? David.Kane (talk) 17:53, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Nirmal Deshpande (5 October 2004). "Ephblog provides alumni a medium for discussion". Williams Record. Retrieved 29 September 2009.
  2. ^ Jeremy Goldstein (2 May 2007). "Ephblog discussion sparks legal action". Williams Record. Retrieved 29 September 2009.
  3. ^ Bonnie Obremski (24 June 2007). "Williams College Environmental efforts met with mixed reactions". The Berkshire Eagle. Retrieved 30 September 2009. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
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