Wikipedia talk:Words to avoid/Archive 6

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Formal request to consider "concede" the same as "admit"

We currently list "Admit, confess, deny" as potentially biased words. I added "concede", which User:Neon white reverted for no apparent reason beyond the WP:BOLD nature of the edit. Fine: Here's a formal request that we no longer exclude "concede", as in "He conceded that there were errors in the military intelligence", a statement exactly as bad as "He admitted that there were errors in the military intelligence", in this list.

Also, "acknowledge" might also be a similarly inappropriate word, as in "He acknowledged errors in the military intelligence". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I clearly stated the reason in the edit summary, please do not misrepresrent other editors actions. We cannot allow editors to add words to this article at will. There needs to be a consensus. --neon white talk 11:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we can, because Wikipedia is not a mindless bureaucracy, and it is not necessary to get explicit permission before improving a page. See also what the editing policy says on this point:

"Previous authors do not need to be consulted before making changes - nobody owns articles. In fact, some Wikipedians think you should not wait at all—simply change an article immediately if you see a problem, rather than waiting to discuss changes that you believe need to be made. Discussion is only needed if someone voices disagreement."

Note that said disagreement is supposed to be with the substance of the changes, not with the failure to seek advance permission for making a change that you agree with. Consensus, in fact, demands that you not revert improvements that you personally agree with, because the simplest consensus is the one in which a change is made, and nobody happens to disagree with it enough to revert it.

So: Do you have an actual problem with 'concede', a synonym for 'admit', being considered potentially as objectionable as 'admit'? Or do you just have a good-faith, but misplaced, bureaucratic complaint? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:46, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I admit the logic of your argument, assuming your premises -- which are the same as those that put "admit, confess, deny" up on the WTA page. The point is, there are almost no words in the English language that can't be used to convey some non-neutral meaning. WTA is expanding to be a massive list of "words used in rhetoric," which is not only pointless, but destructive and a royal pain to people using this guideline to review articles for GA status and the like. I was initially drawn to this guideline by a particular controversy, but since then I've taken up doing GA reviews, and I would remark that checking each article against every word on the list is undoubtedly the most unproductive, aggravating, and pointless portion of the GA review process. Ray^Talk 16:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I'd say remove that section. Verbal chat 17:02, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this section serves a valid purpose. I've been reminded of it because of a current dispute, in which an editor has repeatedly attempted to characterize a normal statement in a scientific paper (reiterating limitations to their previous work, but asserting confidence in the conclusion) as "retracting" the study, and "conceding" problems. This is both untrue (as the conclusion was affirmed) and a wildly biased way of naming limitations in the study.

The point of this section isn't to ban the words or to increase bureaucratic hassles (Verbal, if you're basically familiar with this page's contents, and you don't see actual problems, then your GA reviews do not require you to follow this page like a pre-flight checklist); it's to keep the rest of us from having to retype this information on dozens of individual talk pages, with endless explanations about how biased and factive substitutes for "said" must not be used to push a POV in an article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:46, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Would you support a move to fork this guideline, keep a basic summary of good style and concern as WP:WTA, and leave the rest in a separate guideline that's not part of the Good Article criteria, then? Ray^Talk 17:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The name of this guideline is a historical misnomer. It isn't a list of every word that should be avoided in Wikipedia articles, nor is every word that appears here a word that should never appear in a Wikipedia article. Instead it is a style guideline to help editors write better articles, and help reviewers identify potential problems. Words like "concede" and "retract" can cause similar problems to "admit" and "deny", but whether any of these words are problematic in any particular usage is a matter for rational discussion aimed at improving the encyclopedia. There is no point in expanding this guideline to cover every possible eventuality, as article editing is done by human beings, not machines. The only reason for changing this guideline is if it does not clearly articulate why some words are problematic, or does not help editors spot problematic phrasing. The guideline isn't here to quote as a tool to win an argument. Geometry guy 20:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Hasn't the name of this article been up for discussion before? "Use of controversial terms" would be far better in my opinion. --neon white talk 11:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Not in mine. This is a style guideline. It isn't about controversy, but about misusing words. Often words mislead unintentionally, and editors need advice on how to spot problems and choose their words better. They don't need advice on handling controversy: we have an entire policy devoted to that. Geometry guy 21:38, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I did not suggest the title should be 'handling controversy', i clearly suggested 'use of controversial words'. This article certainly concerns the use of contentious and controversial words, read the lead paragraph, it's not about 'avoiding' such words as the titles suggests. If the words werent controversial we wouldnt have this page. --neon white talk 10:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I support Ray's proposal. Move the rest to a FAQ or something. Verbal chat 20:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy for this guideline to have an FAQ or something similar, with essay status. It might help us to shorten the guideline as well. Geometry guy 21:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a sensible suggestion. One problem I see is that one function of WP:WTA is to extinguish (nearly) all discussions about the term "Terrorist". I think this is an important function (I am editing Sri Lankan topics, and if we had no WP:TERRORIST, everything would descend into flame and edit wars). If this part is demoted to essay, then it does no longer cut short these discussions. Still, I agree that there are at least three things here that should be separated, and can probably disentangled: 1) MOS issues 2) a list of words which fall under 1, with some explanation 3) a knock-out against "Terrorist" discussions. Not all of these need to be discussed on the same page, or have equal status for that matter, but I would appreciate if the terrorist thing could remain a guideline. Jasy jatere (talk) 11:06, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to giving the FAQ guideline status; the goal of this particular proposal is to make the guideline useful to people reviewing for style. Ray^Talk 21:21, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I know this old, but, I came out thinking, we are sacrificing the need to fight systemic bias because it is inconvenient for GA reviewers? I am sorry, but if GA reviewing were easy, more people would do it. The argument is patently invalid: suck it up. If you have any other argument am willing to hear it, but the argument that there is no possible unbiased (which is not the same as neutral, albeit similar) formulations and that this is make work is an underhanded and patient strategy to undermine WTA and introduce bias into wikipedia.--Cerejota (talk) 13:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that "concede" should definitely be added to WP:AVOID.Vitaminman (talk) 06:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I can't actually think of a single example in which concede would be appropriate. (I exclude direct quotations.)

Admit, currently listed, can be used in entirely neutral ways: Theater tickets often say "admit one person". Physicians "admit" patients to the hospital. Courts of law "admit" evidence. It's only in the "opposite of deny" sense that admit has the potential to be a problem. This is one of the many reasons why GA and FA reviewers can't assume that the presence of a listed word is necessarily inappropriate. (If that's all it took, then we'd have a bot produce a report on it, and eliminate the fallible human step.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Unwieldy example?

This quote doesn't seem clear to me: '"At just three years out of law school, Griffin's family requested that Scarborough represent him at his trial."'. Could anyone recommend changes, or does it seem correct?

On an unrelated note to the above, I was wondering if anyone had any information on the usage of the term "terrorist". I've noted that David Aaronovich of The Times has referred to it in a past article, where the same actions against civilians were classed as either "killings" or "suicide bombings". I think this came from various commentators depending on their bias and the faction committing the act. I feel the neutral depiction is a fair mediation to avoid bias, as long as it can be upheld. That is, rather than using the term 'paramilitary' as an epithet for some and 'volunteer' for others, again depending on the editor. 92.5.140.104 (talk) 17:53, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

How about "Just three years after Scarborough graduated from law school, Griffin's family requested that he represent Griffin at his trial." The second "Griffin" is a bit unwieldy, of course, and you could substitute "Joe" or "the accused murderer" or some other form of words as appropriate.

The one word you might want to think a bit about in that example, however, is "just". Unless it is evidently remarkable that the request was made only three years after he left law school, "just" might constitute a bit of editorialising and you might be best to leave it out. But in a case like "He managed to defeat the entire Roman Empire armed just with a pair of scissors", it's probably acceptable!

On your other query - this has been debated at great length - see WP:TERRORIST. I believe there's a fairly firm guideline in place now. Barnabypage (talk) 18:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Marketing language

I thought there was a section on that here, but this does not seem to be the case. I think words like "seamless", "solution". "state-of-the art", "fit", "next generation" etc, which are rampant in marketing speech, should also be included as WTA. The reason for this is POV-policy, of course Jasy jatere (talk) 08:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Hah. I'd be favor of banning them just on grounds of bad style. Ray^Talk 13:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, solution is already mentioned as a WTA (in the marketing context). See Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Solutions, and yes the other ones do seem like they should generally be avoided, but of course they all have multiple meanings: State of the art is a copyright term (see Prior art; fit can mean many things: "The jacket fit well"; and next generation has many uses: "Members of the next generation of rabbits were larger than their parents." Cool3 (talk) 15:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Good point, Cool3. Ray^Talk 01:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion: "Welcomed" when used to describe a birth

I was reading Bruce Springsteen's article, and it felt weird to read that "Springsteen and Scialfa welcomed their first child" --it seems similar to why we avoid terms like "passed away" when dealing with death. Any agreement? --Bobak (talk) 07:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. It's an unnecessary (and in some cases, undoubtedly, inaccurate) bit of floweriness. Barnabypage (talk) 09:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

"Is the name of"

I think this should be added to the list. It's a benign phrase by itself, but it often shows poor writing. Too many times I have seen "X is the name of Y" when it can be substituted with "X is Y" or "The X is Y", even in featured articles (e.g.: "Main sequence is the name for a continuous and distinctive band of stars that appear on plots of stellar color versus brightness." against "The main sequence is a continuous and distinctive band of stars that appear on plots of stellar color versus brightness."). Please note this does not apply to where we have articles about names themselves. Sceptre ^(talk) 16:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

"X is the name of Y" is one way to highlight the use-mention distinction. I agree it can lead to bad prose, but there is plenty more wrong with your example than this phrase. The main sequence is not a continuous and distinctive band of stars (the Milky Way would seem to be a better example of the latter), nor do stars appear on plots of stellar color vs brightness (ink and pixels do). One also has to be careful about presenting a theoretical model (even a highly successful and widely accepted one) as a fundamental truth. Geometry guy 18:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)