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Badges?

On a similar subject to 'Roundals' (does not get my vote BTW) I noticed some squadron patches creeping in to the F-101 Voodoo article. It's a non standard section, the images are probably (hopefully) on Commons, do we send them back there? Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 22:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

To quote, "We don't need no stinkin' badges!" - BilCat (talk) 23:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Quite, however I just noticed that a very active project member added them! Just worried that it will set a precedent. One of my favourite films BTW! Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually they were contributed by three different editors. They actually aren't squadron badges, but official aircraft type badges that were sanctioned by the manufacturer and worn by all RCAF/CF and USAF crews. I figured that were historical and of interest enough to find a home in a gallery at the bottom of the page. There is actually one more in the series, "witch doctor". - Ahunt (talk) 23:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Well that's ok then! Still a non-standard section and God forbid, a WP forbidden gallery. Just worried that it might open the flood gates for 'racist fanboy' stuff! On the fence. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd have thought a single example in perhaps the service section, and the rest under commons, or how about a montage of the four of them rather than a single image for each?GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The survivors section is overburdened in that article too.GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

That is easy to fix as there is already a F-101 Voodoo on display article. We just need to cross-check and make sure that all in the 101 article are on the list and then remove it. An initial look indicates that some need to be transferred. - Ahunt (talk) 12:23, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

"List of ... survivors" articles

IIRC, there were discussions on WPAIR, and in a combined Move discussion, which determined that the aircraft survior list articles should begin with "List Of". Per this example diff, some of the moves to the "List of" titles have been reverted in the past cuple of months. Oddly, the user reverting the moves gave this edit summary: "moved List of B-25 Mitchell survivors to B-25 Mitchell survivors over redirect: This discussion regarding titleing has been discussed - adding "List of" was discarded as pointless. Numerous "List" pages on wiki exsist without having this lable st)" My memory on the consensus of the discussions is distinctly different, but I haven't been able to find the discussions. Thanks. Note that I have reverted some of these articles back tp the "List of" titles, but I will undo the moves if I am mistaken of the consensus. - BilCat (talk) 15:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

At the moment most of them are lists, they could become articles but would need a lot more textual non-fanboy content. MilborneOne (talk) 19:27, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

While I can see both sides of this and could easily live with either, I do have to say that renaming article without discussion is a bit ill-done. It’s not the kind of thing one needs to be “bold” about. The rationale in favor of which way to go could just as easily and validly have been “Numerous "List" pages on wiki exist having this label”. Askari Mark (Talk) 03:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I do believe (in full good-faith) that there is a preexisting concensus on the issue - I'm just trying to find it! I don't make a habit of having discussins with myself, and then claiming there is a consensus to support it, when either the consensus is the opposite of what I claim, or non exists at all. I truly thought the consensus would be easy to find when I made the recent move reversions (I had been watching them since the moves), but I've yet to find it. I then asked hare, and have not made any moves since. While I would support a new discussion, we don't need to "reinvent the wheel" if a concensus already esists! - BilCat (talk) 07:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe its in here somewhere? There is a lot of conversation which must be taking up project member's time. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 09:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Gary! Simple search paramenter, but I couldn't think of one! The main discussion seems to be here, and is the one I was thinking of. I found this comment quite telling: "Checked other wiki pages and found "Lists of solo albums by The Beatles", "Lists of video games" ect... - in agreement that a name change to "List of Chance-Vought F4U survivors" would follow wiki rules and would be acceptable. Davegnz (talk) 11:56 am, 16 September 2008, Tuesday (10 months, 18 days ago) (UTC−4)" Btw, while there seems to be a clear consensus, "survivors" was not preferred, but there was no consensus on a viable alternative. I'll wait a day or so, and then complete the renaming unless other issues onb the titles are raised that need to be dealt with first. - BilCat (talk) 11:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Like other child articles the titles should reflect the original section titles, List of Foo survivors or List of Foo aircraft on display where Foo is the original article name. MilborneOne (talk) 11:53, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, I'd be interested to see where Foo fighters are on display. (LOL) FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• And the Foo Fighters. :-) -Fnlayson (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion - change the title to (example) B-24 Liberator Survivors Listing. Cleaner, looks professional, keeps the main article as well as the sub article (Survivors) on the same page when seaching for a specific type of aircraft. I would like some on the lines of Aerography (like discography the list & catalog of a particular musician) but adding the word Listing is not going to end the world Davegnz (talk) 16:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Dave, please provide a link to the the discussion in which the "List of: format was discarded - a discusion in which more than just yourself participated! As posted above, you supported this format yourself in the main discussion on the issue. If you continue to revert moves contrary to the above consensus, further actions will be taken . - BilCat (talk) 22:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Trying to recusitate Aluminum Overcast

Despite the PROD and AFD effort, I took it as an exercise to see what can be done to create "a silk purse from a sow's ear" and in the case of this stub article, I spent a few hours simply gathering information and was surprised at how much there was on the individual aircraft. I have very little interest in the subject but wanted to use this as an exercise in research gathering. Please look at: as it is now and then to see the changes made. A coupla questions: should we be bothered if the original article simply fades from the scene? should stubs be looked at for possible expansion? am I completely nutz? (the last question is of course, rhetorical as I have ample evidence as to the answer there...) FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC).

Much better now and I think worth keeping, what an article might become is a factor at AfD, problem is who knows what an article might become without doing hours of research unless it is a well known subject?! Well done Bill, glad I don't have to answer your last question! Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 15:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Better article appeciate your effort - still dont see anything notable in its history! particularly as it was delivered to late to have operated during the war. Most could be a note in B-17 survivors or an article on the EAA. MilborneOne (talk) 18:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

That aircraft is mostly notable for its work with EAA as a "flying museum aircraft", not its wartime service. I think the article needs to emphasis that aspect. - Ahunt (talk) 19:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

OK I accept that, although that is not clear in the article. Perhaps we need to make it clearer what makes an aircraft notable to have an article of its own. I dont have a strong view on what the citeria should be but it should be robust to use in the future particularly to defend or otherwise AfDs. Lots of aircraft could be considered flying museum aircraft. Perhaps if an aircraft is still airworthy after 50 years it deserves an article! (although that could include some KC-135s and some B-52s!) The original comments a few days ago were about B-25 Made in the Shade (aircraft) which is flyable and more than fifty years old but so are lots of P-51 etc. Just need to agree on a citeria on individual aircraft articles. (but note I did create Avro Vulcan XH558 which is only 49 years old!!) MilborneOne (talk) 19:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Continental Airlines Flight 128

Continental Airlines Flight 128 has been started to cover a severe turbulence incident. There were a few injuries serious enough for hospitalization and more minor injuries. This does not seem notable per WP:AIRCRASH and WP:Air/PC accidents & incidents guidelines. Should this article be tagged for Proposed deletion or AfD? Thanks. -Fnlayson (talk) 14:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

This is almost a daily occurrence and despite the notoriety of this particular incident, it is a minor event, hardly worth mentioning a year from now. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC).

I agree - not notable. Our project consensus standards are at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aircraft/page_content#Accidents_and_incidents and this doesn't make the grade there. - Ahunt (talk) 17:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

POV-pushing and "whitewashing" accusations

I could use some fresh eysd and opinions at Talk:Lockheed Martin#strong bias here and Talk:Lockheed Martin#Corporate Whitewashing. The talk discussions should fully explain the situation. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 02:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

With your edit summary, I was sorta expecting F-22 Raptor. :) I'll keep an eye on the LM article to see if it flares back up. -Fnlayson (talk) 03:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. The F-22 would be a more geunine controversy than protesting polling machines and recruiters, but it's better covered on the F-22 page, and that's all it is about. - BilCat (talk) 03:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Aircraft notability

Tempted to prod or AfD Made in the Shade (aircraft) which does not appear to have any notability as an individual aicraft. Perhaps the data should just be in B-25 Mitchell survivors but as that is currently in a stunted fan boy style it may be difficult to incorporate. Any thought, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 20:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Prod away. The state of survivors article has no bearing on the quality of the individual plane article; a summary is all that is needed. GraemeLeggett (talk) 21:55, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I would be tempted to incorporate it into B-25 Mitchell survivors or Commemorative Air Force and just make this article a redirect. No need to wait all that time for a prod then! - Ahunt (talk) 22:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

What about Thunderbird (B-17) or another Fortress Picadilly Lilly II? Do we have a good guideline?GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The guideline on individual aircraft is at Wikipedia:Notability_(aircraft)#Individual_aircraft and this article doesn't make the cut as far as I can see. - Ahunt (talk) 13:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

From my reading Thunderbird and Picadilly Lilly II don't make it either, neither does Aluminum Overcast. Necessary Evil (aircraft) Jabit III (B-29) and most of the others in Category:Individual aircraft of World War II look suspect at first glance. Memphis Belle (B-17) I recognise. what's the appropriate mechanism Prod or AFD? GraemeLeggett (talk) 14:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Although all of the aircraft mentioned have a history and "provenance", that they are essentially stubs, makes it difficult to make a case for retention. I would encourage anyone with adequate reference sources to make an effort to provide a reasonable rationale for their continuation as an article. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 15:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC).

History does not necessarily make for notability. I've prodded Aluminum Overcast. It's barely more than a line or two.GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

...Note the aircraft history and recognize the role it plays in the EAA? I agree that the length of the submission does not allow the reader to see its notability. Bzuk (talk) 15:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC).

I've removed the PROD on Aluminum Overcast to give time for discussion, and possible improvements to the article, per BZuk's observations. - BilCat (talk) 15:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, it's obviously a more complex situation so I've started a formal Afd for it. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Just on a related subject, I am trying to tidy up the mess that is List of B-17 Flying Fortress survivors and while changing a shed full of external links to references I also deleted some of the content. This involved removing wrecks and aircraft that only exist as a panel of nose art. User:Davegnz disagees and has reverted the changes with the edit summary POanel are historic, on display at museums - just because not intacts flyable or anything else does not mean that not part of the B-17 history. I was led to believe that while we had real (and flying aircraft) then wrecks, noses, and small bits of painted panels were not notable. I would agree that some of these cockpits can become notable if no other complete aircraft survive. Also listed was an aircraft that no longer survived but big bits are in a number of different museumns. Looking for other opinions and perhaps some better guidelines rather than remove then again. But you have to consider if painted panels are listed with a complete history of the related aircraft as part of a list of survivors then perhaps it might be time to get our coats. MilborneOne (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I find it interesting that B-17 Survivors is an AWARD WINNING ARTCLE and you consider it a mess - Why do you go and creat you own articles instead of waiting everyones time with this nonesense Davegnz (talk) 16:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Can I just remind you about personal attacks and WP:CIVIL, please comment about the topic in hand and not other editors. Not sure where you get award winning articles as it doesnt meet requirement for a GA or FA by a long way. MilborneOne (talk) 11:47, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

If it isn't intact or on the way to being mostly intact - how can it described as a survivor?GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

We have guidance material that was developed by consensus some time ago on that at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aircraft/page_content#Aircraft_on_display which says:

Aircraft on display
Aircraft on display should be information on non-airworthy aircraft that are on permanent public display. It should not include partial aircraft or aircraft not viewable by the public. When a large number of aircraft are still preserved the list should be limited to the most prominent ones.

Survivors
Survivors should be information on aircraft that have survived following the retirement of the aircraft type from normal military or commercial use. It should include airworthy aircraft and any non-airworthy aircraft not on public display but otherwise notable.

As can be seen there, aircraft parts are not considered "aircraft on display" or "survivors". Graeme is quite right - calling left over parts "survivors" is ludicrous! - Ahunt (talk) 21:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

They are good guidelines, we narrowed it slightly in the engine project so that survivors only covers flying examples. We can write guidelines until the cows come home, some editors will not follow the spirit of them however. Common sense will prevail hopefully with these individual aircraft articles, I looked at one and it wasn't notable or even mildly interesting. There is probably a place on the web for these articles but I suggest that it is not here. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 02:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Survivors is not only Airworthy aircraft, Display aircraft or Aircraft under Restoration. Susvivors has to include the historic footprint (ie meaningfull identifiable artifacts on display). MilborneOne want to eliminate historic artifacts on display at a reconized museum (ie nose art panels) - my comment is how many museums and how many wikiarticles list partial collections are historic treasures (ie Mayan pottery, etc...). MilborneOne also want to eliminate underwater wreck sites (which like museums are being advertised for divers to visit ((underwater museum))) (including B-17 Black Jack which was the subject of a major PBS television special) from the listing. It is clear that MilborneOne has missed the past 15 years in Warbird History: 30 years ago there was less the 10 Hawker Hurricanes in the world, less then 20 De Havilland Mosquito anywhere, etc.... Right now, there are individuals who have recreated the jigs and fixtures to take what was once only a pile of metal and restore it to operational condition. This includes Spitfires (Isle of Man), Hurricanes (England, Canada), P-51's (England, Canada, New Zealand), Mosquito's (Canada, New Zealand), P-40 (New Zealand, Georgia), I know of a company looking at the jigs for the B-26 Marauder. So todays wreck is tomorrows award winning aircraft. The B-17C is also the only know survivor of that series Davegnz (talk) 16:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Dave, a 'survivor' to me is a single 'living' entitity (aircraft/person), not pieces scattered through museums or even rusting in the swamps of the Phillipines, I watch the warbird documentaries sometimes and it is fascinating to me but that doesn't mean it is ok to write an article on every single piece of old aeroplane that exists on the planet. Perhaps I could ask where do you draw the line on what is notable or what is not? I own a share in, maintain and fly a 65 year old aeroplane that has an interesting but not particularly notable past history, I would like to write an article on it but common sense says that this is not the place for that. So I sympathise but there are project and Wikipedia wide guidelines which often overrule what we would actually like to do, I feel that your insistance on not abiding by the spirit of them (and this subject is not the only one you disagree with) is causing friction. It is almost as if you do not want to collaborate with fellow aviation editors, which surely is the basic principal of a Wiki? Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 22:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I have two aluminum tubes and some AN bolts in my garage that are off Ultraflight Lazair S/N 725. The Lazair is the most produced Canadian aircraft ever designed and therefore very notable, so surely my garage should be mentioned in the article "survivors section? - Ahunt (talk) 23:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Do not be a smart ass - I am talking about documented, original significant remains. Wikipedia does have a history of listing in articles of interest, this type of information. Take a look at USS Monitor recovery section. The underwater wreck is considered accessable (thus included in the listing) as well as locations of parts of significient interest (conserved and are on display ) Davegnz (talk) 19:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I have a panel from an Argosy in my Garage! I just like to make it clear nothing stopping Davegnz writing an article on painted nose art, what I didnt like was reading about the history of an aircraft as if it was a complete survivor only to find at then end oh by the way we have only a five foot panel left. As for underwater wrecks wikipedia is not a travelguide for divers, although the subject of using aircraft as dive sites would probably not be a problem. A list of aircraft survivors or aircraft on display is not the right place for wrecks and small bits of aircraft. Restorations could be notable if they were the only one a type brought back to life but yet another modern P-51 or Spitfire is not really notable to the original aircraft type. MilborneOne (talk) 11:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Not a tavelguide - then you better start deleting all the museums of the world, all the cities listed in wikipedia etc... Gee and how long did it take for you to read 24 word then to hit in large text NOTE: You write as if you spent an entire day trying to figure out the big words and wasted many many hours of your valuable life only to find out that this single line reference was talking about a artifact Davegnz (talk) 19:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

User:Davegnz: please go and read WP:CIVIL, this sort of behavior, including insults, is not an acceptable way to conduct yourself. If you persist in uncivil behaviour you will be blocked from editing. - Ahunt (talk) 19:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Despite the discussion on this page Davegnz has added back nose art and reverted other improvements. MilborneOne (talk) 18:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well there is clearly no consensus to do that, so as an admin, appropriate action should be taken. - Ahunt (talk) 19:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Just a thought that Davegnz, or anyone else for that matter might like to consider – any artefact, or part of an aircraft, belonged to one that evidently did not survive! --Red Sunset 20:06, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Fragments of wrecked aircraft are rarely going to be notable where there are surviving complete examples of an aircraft. There may be odd exceptions however, like Lady be Good, or at a stretch, the buts of Rudolph Hess's Bf 110 preserved at the Imperial War Museum.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Hotel 900

This article is named for the callsign of the helicopter operated by the Sussex Police Air Operations Unit. The article is supposed to be about the helicopter. I have made a move recommendation to rename the page to Sussex Police Air Operations Unit on the article talk page. --Born2flie (talk) 11:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Help needed

I am tidying an article but need help identifying this aircraft which appears in this article. The file name calls it a P-47 and the caption originally said so, but now simply says "A plane used for patrols" which is unsatisfactory. Anyone know what it is? Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 22:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a North American O-47 observation aircraft - 47 yes, P no!.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Tks. I've fixed it. Also changed the next caption from B-24 to B-25. Quite a bit of difference! Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 23:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)