Talk:Standard Generalized Markup Language

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Timeline error

The following has, I think, an error (XML came after HTML, no?): "HTML was originally designed based on XML tagging but without SGML's emphasis on rigorous markup." Probably should read: "HTML was originally designed based on SGML tagging but without SGML's emphasis on rigorous markup." MarkVolundNYC 17:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Beinsane 07:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

An e-mail with a "history lesson" on the origins of SGML and relation to similar tools of the period: http://people.opera.com/howcome/2006/phd/archive/lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xsl-fo/2002Oct/0076.html John Vandenberg 08:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

DSSSL?

As Docbook is (rightly) mentioned, shouldn't DSSSL also be? (MonstaPro 15:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC))[reply]

I think not, it's a LISP dialect making the same job as XSLT does. It's not SGML. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 16:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of Abreviation?

Unclear: so does the GML of SGML stand for Goldfarb, Mosher and Lorie or Generalized Markup Language? If it is both that should be mentioned, if its the first it should be cited.

Officially, the "GML" in the name of the IBM product stands for "Generalized Markup Language"; the gloss 'Goldfarb, Mosher, and Lorie' is a quiet little in-joke. (And conceivably an hommage to awk, but probably not.) It would be easy to destroy the humor by making the explanation too explicit. -C.M.Sperberg-McQueen (talk) 21:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wish: syntax

On the wish list: some more syntax samples, highlighting what looks like HTML and XML, and what's unlike them. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 16:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm searching and searching, but to my dismay most links on SGML are dead, the people having SGML material believing there to be no need to keep maintaining it! Sigh!! Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 17:07, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done, got it from DocBook references. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 18:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Syntax section seemed incomprehensible

To me a language defines a set of documents that are allowable, as does a syntax. SGML is class of languages, right? so I take SGML and a DTD and get a markup language, right? Anyway if I got it completely wrong just destroy it please. But I did not like the way it was written. I would have to stretch my idea of a language too far, or I would feel too lost about what the DTD is doing. Thanks Wikivek 19:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wish: syntax (2)

I feel the syntax part is asymmetric, describing only a few features that some editor believed were important... (I'm not saying they are not, but there are plenty of other features which are not mentioned). I would vote for collecting a list of features and parts of SGML declaration, in order to start describing them. Rjgodoy (talk) 17:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

</QUOTE//

I was also tempted to "fix" this example, but then I realized it was right because.

It shows a net-enabling start-tag followed by a null end-tag. Per ISO 8879:1986/Cor.2:1999(E), K.4.3:

[18] net-enabling start-tag =
 stago,
 generic identifier specification, 
 attribute specification list,
 s*,
 nestc

and, per ISO 8879, 7.5.1.3:

[23] null end-tag = 
  NET

Wen using the reference concrete syntax, we have:

STAGO <
NETSC /
NET   /

Thus <QUOTE// is the correct form according to the reference concrete syntax.

Note: XML defines NETSC as "/" and NET and ">" so this construct looks as <Quote/> (see note 23 in page 8 of ISO 8879:1986/Cor.2:1999(E)).

However, this article is not about XML. I would prefer to keep examples as close as possible to the reference syntax (it would be a mess if each example uses their own syntax).

I will add a sentence about the XML equivalent of <QUOTE//

XML is not an application of SGML

I changed the xml section to read, "XML is a subset of SGML" instead of "XML is an application of SGML" because the XML spec. does not actually include a normative SGML declaration. (There is a non-normative SGML declaration in the XML 1.0 spec.) --Ott0 (talk) 16:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Less emphasis on syntax, more focus on rationale

I have put in some changes to correct the over-emphasis on minutae of syntax. In particular, I have quoted the standard's Annex A on what generalized markup is, since if you don't understand that you don't understand anything. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article is still missing basic information about simple unfancy markup, but I think it is best to merely redirect the reader to the XML entry, which is being improved in this regard currently. The minutae are more OK in that context.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a section on the versions of the standard, in order to clarify the relationship to XML. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the paragraph on its development from the first section to a more suitable place, since it is not appropriate for an introduction. Because I don't want to de-emphasize the individuals who created SGML in making this move, I have also added an extra line mentioning that Goldfarb is the editor.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other suggestions

I am not happy about the description of SGML as a metalanguage in the intro. While it may be true (certainly for original SGML, though not for SGML (WWW) and XML with no DTD or schema) it diverts attention too early on a technical point. I believe that Tim Bray is trying to pitch the vocabulary of XML entry at high-school level, so I think it might be useful to re-work the first intro line in this regard. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better to have a bullet list giving the three parts to an SGML document and describing each part more clearly. Actually, there can be four parts with the rate link documents, and I think SGML Catalogs deserve a place as an unofficial fifth part too.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]