Talk:Quantum brain dynamics
I wonder what the copyright status of this text is? The full article seems to be at [1] (pdf), and at PhilSci, I found the following in their policies:
- • All documents available from this server may be protected under U.S. and foreign copyright laws, and may not be reproduced without permission.
If it is the author himself who contributed the text this is of course cool, but otherwise we need his explicit permission to license the text by GFDL. — Sverdrup 14:14, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There is, at the current time, no reason to believe that quantumn mechanics has anything to do with the human brain or indeed any neurological system in any lifeform, and to believe otherwise is wishful thinking, possibly trying to avoid the consequences of determinism on "free will". This sounds a lot like pseudoscience to me. Shouldn't it have a warning and/or disclaimer to that effect? --80.219.63.77 20:06, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Do not hurry to claim that all this is pseudo-science! I wished the things in neuroscience were clear as in the middle of the 20th century, but there are some problems that the neural net theory cannot solve (here I will only mention (i) the hard problem of experience posed by Nagel in 1974 and (ii) the binding problem posed by James in 1890). What about the free will and determinism, if I had to vote for banning a theory as pseudo-science it will be exactly determinism. If one wants to really understand the Universe he/she should study quantum physics. -- Danko_Georgiev_MD 23:55, 2 April 2004 (+2 GMT)
- Your writeup is far from NPOV. Some choice quotes: "Quantum mechanics is believed to be capable of explaining the enigma of consciousness" - Sez you. "This revolutionary theory was originated by Umezawa (Ricciardi & Umezawa 1967, Stuart et. al. 1978, 1979) in a very elegant and general framework" - revolutionary? elegant? Besides this, your article is incoherent and virtually inaccessible for a layman reader, which defeats the purpose of an encyclopedia. Finally, your quantum theory still does not explain consciousness. Consciousness as a phenomenon is likely to remain unexplainable, unless two conditions are met: 1)the proposed theory makes testable predictions on how to precisely manipulate states of consciousness 2)explanation provides a non-symbolic essence of consciousness. You call determinism a pseudo-science, but without determinism, science wouldn't have advanced far enough to reveal the quantum world. Your every experiment (and the equipment you use) *relies* on the assumption of inductive logic and the principle of determinism holding true -- Gyan 14:01, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)-
- Hey, Gyan, calm down. We need professionals, and we will fix the article to 'cyclopedia style in time. We can't teach everybody everything about NPOV and stuff in no time. Look below at my comment. — Sverdrup 14:17, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Hello, Danko, how excellent that you wish to contribute to wikipedia on a topic you know very well. We love to get experts reviewing the articles! :-) Now, you see Wikipedia is not a source of primary research, so we will have to transform the current article a little, to be less paper-like and more encyclopedic. But I see no wrong in your contribution!
- I wonder: am I completely lost, or is it OK for me to add a reference to Penrose's The Emperor's New Mind?
- — Sverdrup 13:32, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Oh, and an additional note: I'll have to ask you to sort out the References not relating to the particular content of the article. To declare sources is good, but The list is currently certainly in excess for this short encyclopedic overview. Thank you! — Sverdrup 13:36, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
See also Quantum mind. Merge? — Sverdrup 13:57, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
O.K. I think that Q-mind and QBD can be merged, but there are a lot of versions of Q-mind theories and I stick to "hardest to understand" of all these theories (QBD). Indeed it is nothing but application of QFT to brain - a lot of mathematical concepts and calculations that I cannot still follow in their depth. The biological part however was not just "shrouded" with mystery, but also wrong in several points. So I was able to do a lot of neuro-molecular updates and even predict certain phenomena. If I have to consider myself "not having neutral point of view" then I would like to note that I indeed will try to experimentally disprove Q-mind [not only QBD]. I am one of the few scientists that follows Karl Popper's philosophy - "I cannot prove Q-mind, but surely I can experimentally disprove it". The experiment that I am currently organizing will have the strange property to challenge the neural net theories of mind, too.
What about Penrose's book it is interesting, but I still have to check the OR idea mathematically because a strange thing occurs. If Q-mind interacts with the environment [brain] it decoheres but also exchanges information via this interaction. Thus in the dissipative QBD that I discuss in the Wikipedia entry - Q-mind controls brain and inputs info from the brain via decoherence. In Orch OR Penrose & Hameroff need gravitational self-collapse and need the microtubules to be isolated. But this gravitational decoherence leads to destruction of info that disappears as if in a black hole [the info is not communicated to the environment] so I do not see way the microtubule to control the brain in Orch OR, because the "output" info as if seems irreversibly lost in the gravitational collapse [indeed the inspiration of Penrose is exactly the action of gravity in the black holes]. So I consider the idea Penrose to be linked to QBD not "good shot" untill all this is explained.
p.s. Feel free to modify this entry! Of course that it should be in encyclopaedic style and as simply written as possible -- Danko_Georgiev_MD