Talk:IB Diploma Programme/Archive 6

UCAS tariffs/UK section

It would appear that the point awards on the UCAS table have changed for 2009. I don't want to mess up the html - but here is my source: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4360839/IB-Diploma-and-the-IB-Certificates-IB-Diploma-revised Would someone who is more adept at formatting please make the revision? Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 19:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Okay, reading the UK section, it needs to be completely re-written based on the revised table. It can no longer be claimed that a 45 on the Diploma scores more UCAS points than the 6 A-Levels - they are now equal at 720. I would like to suggest that someone from the UK or thereabouts perform the edits because I will be accused of doing it with a POV.ObserverNY (talk) 00:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Since no one responded, I inserted the new UCAS table with UCAS links for documentation. I did not touch the incredibly biased UK "overview" which touts the IB Diploma's expansion and denegrates the A-Levels, but fails to cite the political reasons (Tony Blair's IB push) for the dramatic increase in IB in the UK, nor the subsequent change of political opinion held by Ed Balls. The downgrading of the IB Diploma on the UCAS tariff for 2010 clearly reflects the shift in political opinion. ObserverNY (talk) 16:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

The change in the UCAS tariff reflects no such thing. It's a relatively minor adjustment, not a wholesale re-vamp.

Ewen (talk) 18:25, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

A better source is this one: UCAS tariffs and notes

Ewen (talk) 18:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Ewen - I believe that is the same source I used in the article, not the link above. Don't you consider the addition of the Certificate table and a 48 drop in the IBD 45 score significant? ObserverNY (talk) 20:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY - we are editors. We have a specific purpose. You seem to have made a valid change. Just drop the political angle and get on with improving the article rather than trying to get some political mileage out of it. If you can't get with the idea of Wikipedia take a break please. --Candy (talk) 15:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Candy - as an editor, I see political proIB bias evident in the UK section. Perhaps I should highlight the particular sentences with ? I added the new table without touching the politically biased overview to allow editors from the UK an opportunity to take responsibility for that section on their own. Drop the condescending lecturing and show some intellectual honesty. ObserverNY (talk) 15:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY - the Certificate table is interesting, as it compares IB Certificates directly with single-subject qualifications such as A-levels.

The 48-point drop is from 768 to 720 at the very top end of the grade scale. That's an adjustment of 6.7%. Not exactly enormous. At the other end of the scale the drop is from 260 to 240 - 8.3%.

Even with the drop, UCAS rate the IBDP as equivalent to three subjects studied at slightly-better-than-A-level standard, plus three subjects at slightly-better-than-AS-level standard, plus a core curriculum equivalent to a further A-level. Very few students would achieve this standard if they took an A-level programme. (When students do achieve this number of A-levels, it tends to make the news: [1]

Ewen (talk) 06:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion: Replace old table with new, unless the existing table is still relevant.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

That's fine with me, it is relevant for 2009, but I would think those students have already applied long ago to university. However, based on the fact that on the new UCAS table, a 45 DP = 6 A's in A-Levels (720) I would like revisions on the language in the overview to include the removal of all the "more"s and "better"s. I can counteract each and every one of those "opinion" newstories with others that show contradictory evidence. Again, I am asking a UK editor to neutralize the narrative so that it does not attempt to portray IB as superior to the A-Levels. Also, there is no need to include the last sentence about TOK, CAS and EE not being in the A-Levels. ObserverNY (talk) 17:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I agree that the old table should be replaced with the new one. It seems to me that the IB Diploma is superior to the A-levels, based on the facts presented in the first paragraph. No need to include opinion news stories to prove the contrary, however, I am sure we would be happy to discuss relevant facts that prove that A-levels are superior to the IB Diploma. If we are comparing the IB Diploma to the A-levels and the IB has TOK, CAS and EE and the A-levels don't, then it is perfectly logical to mention that fact. Why do we need a UK editor to neutralize the narrative? Couldn't anyone do that?

La mome (talk) 20:39, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Since when did the purpose of the UK section on the IBDP become a platform to promote the IBDP as "superior" to the A-Levels? I don't care whether it "seems" that way to you or not, that is not the purpose of a Wikipedia article. ObserverNY (talk) 00:15, 26 June 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Looking forward to facts that prove otherwise.

La mome (talk) 00:19, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

How about instead you look forward to facts about the IBDP in the UK - sans a comparison to the A-Levels other than it as "being viewed equally", (as demonstrated on the UCAS tariff that a 45 on the IBDP is = to 6 A A-Levels). The summary is not supposed to be an analysis and comparison of two programs, it is supposed to be facts about the IBDP. ObserverNY (talk) 01:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Article style

Has too much of a "political" feel. I guess most people who are interested in the topic probably studied IB and have more favourable than average opinions of it, because it has this "European Union/UN" pro-mumbo jumbo warm/fuzzy feel about with hardly anything on the actual academic stuff or curriculum but all this "goodness/humanity" type thing. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 04:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Recognition should be forked, undue weight, rm flagcruft. There is a lot of puffery in there YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 04:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

YellowMonkeyWelcome to the IBDP discussion. It is refreshing to find someone who not only went through IB, but who is able to discern a political POV within the article. I have been attempting to neutralize the article so that it reflects only facts about IB, but have been met with tremendous opposition from IB supporters. I like the edits you made to the UK section and look forward to you sticking around. We are in agreement about the CAS section (CAS being an IB component which I personally find to be a load of BS) which I repeatedly attempted to reduce in length, but ended up in an edit war with Candorwein and LaMome.Perhaps you will have more luck. ObserverNY (talk) 11:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Dear ObserverNY, I wonder how you discern that YellowMonkey went through the IB Diploma. I couldn't from the post.

Also, I refute your claim that I have been in an edit war with you ObserverNY. I don't believe I have. I don't recall reverting anything on the IB Diploma page - at least in the last couple of months. How can I have been in an edit war?

YellowMonkey - Welcome! Perhaps you would like to discuss the article style. Which style do you feel it is written in which needs to be changed? --Candy (talk) 16:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of the article style, there are quite a few very strange references in the article, which have just a number in square brackets. Whoever inserted them should learn how to put proper references in before editing.Tvor65 (talk) 19:52, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Twor65 Well I started to go through the article but ahve a long way to go (first two blocks done only). For me, the whole point is that it reads in a single voice (a la NPOV) and hangs coherently. --Candy (talk) 23:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)