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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cfherbert (talk | contribs) at 14:40, 1 July 2009 (→Requested move: Oppose vote). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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Archives of past discussion

Archive 1

Requested move

  • Straight-six Straight-6 and Straight eight Straight-8 are used to describe these engines because 6- and 8-cylinder engines are also (and usually) offered in V configurations where 4-cylinder engines usually are not. Because of this 4-cylinder engines are not (and don't need to be) referred to as Straight-four engines.Vegavairbob (talk) 22:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment disagree with those comments. V4s were historically very common (Ford probably made a few million of them), and opposed fours are still today very common (Subaru to name one manufacturer). 78.32.143.113 (talk) 11:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: the other Straight-x engine article use the same format, so why be different? Also, straight-four engines maybe not be referred to as such in the U.S., but they are elsewhere (UK, Australia, NZ (+ probably others, but I don't know any more off-hand)). OSX (talk • contributions) 06:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Both terms are in popular use but we should keep it consistent with the other straight 2/3/... articles. Redirects take care of the other forms and most people won't even notice the difference. And for 199.125.109.19, there are plenty of V4's (Ford) and boxer 4's (Subaru, VW, Porsche) out there. Stepho-wrs (talk) 08:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I can see some justification for the move, in that the normal abbreviation for this configuraion is I4. But the justificaton given seems to be based on guesswork, and not always very good guesses. The names straight-four and straight-six probably came from the famous straight-eight automobile engines of the early and mid twentieth century, which were slightly preceded by the V-8. Other inline automoble engines of the period had relatively little competition from corresponding V configurations, and the inline four is still dominant enough among four cylinder autmomobile engines to often be simply described as a four, with vees and boxers etc being more fully described. On balance, I'd leave it as is. Andrewa (talk) 13:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment 'In-line' is used in authoritative text books, and so could not be based on 'guesswork'. 78.32.143.113 (talk) 11:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's true that in-line is used in some of these, as is straight in others. But this doesn't tell us anything about the validity of the arguments or the truth of their premises. It's perfectly possible to arrive at true conclusions by invalid argument and/or by using false premises, and of course equally possible to arrive at false ones. Both occur above. Andrewa (talk) 16:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Whilst I respect your concerns, I personally cited a formal textbook to prove that in-line was the defacto nomenclature, and OK, you are free to challenge with an opposing point of view. But you have failed to provide any citation. Can you cite ANY formal textbook (and Haynes manuals/Haynes Publishing are NOT classed as textbook) which supports your claim that straight has any official and formal use? So I am utterly perplexed on your comment "It's perfectly possible to arrive at true conclusions by invalid argument and/or by using false premises" - are you honestly trying to state that textbooks are somehow 'invalid' or 'false'? It would be good if you could clarify what you mean, thanks. Rgds 78.32.143.113 (talk) 08:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: "Straight" and "inline" are synonymous, so the issue can be handled with redirects. "Straight-six" and "straight-eight" are more popular because of the poetic nature of the names (alliteration and assonance, respectively), which "straight-four" lacks, but it's still a common name for the configuration. V-4's are rare, but they do exist, as do flat-fours (alliteration, again). If we were starting with a blank article, it might be worthwhile to use "inline-4" (as long as we also used "inline-6" and "inline-8"), but at this point, I don't think it's worthwhile changing it.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 16:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I won't bother voting, but please note that "...to keep it consistent with other Wikipedia pages" is absolutely no reason at all to have an article at a certain title. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we should go with the most common name as used by secondary sources, not what helps keep our own little filing system tidy. If that's your only reason for opposing, I'd recommend you strike your vote. Incidentally, a Google search of all variations ("inline/straight-4", "inline/straight 4", "inline/straight-four", "inline/straight four") suggests that "inline" is the more common term in each case; whether or not its majority—between 2:1 and 4:1—is sufficient to warrant the move is another argument. --DeLarge (talk) 19:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Just had a quick read through WP:COMMONNAME, thought I out to highlight this important first line sentance (and I emboldend the important bit): "Convention: Title an article using the most common English language name of a person or thing that is the subject of the article, except where other specific conventions provide otherwise". So basically, even if it could somehow be proven that straight was the most common in say spoken English, I would have to say that the formal useage of in-line in textbooks complies with the specific conventions. Just like say the ibuprofen article is NOT called Bruffen or Nurofen. 78.32.143.113 (talk) 08:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Yes, that redirect was definitely missing. I've just put up redirects from Inline-four engine and Inline-4 engine. That won't resolve or dissolve this present proposal, but it should alleviate whatever dead-end-link effects might have been bothering Vegavairbob. I haven't made up my mind whether I favour the proposed move. I do see and hear both terms in widespread common usage, so I don't think either term can really be considered wrong. My unsystematic survey suggests Rockymtnguy may be correct that people might tend to select one word or the other depending on which number follows it. For instance, people seem to want to say "straight-8" rather than "inline-8" because the former rhymes. I don't think I agree with Vegavairbob that inline is necessarily more suitable or appropriate than straight, but I don't think I agree with DeLarge, either, for WP:GHITS seems to caution us against basing this sort of decision purely on Google hit counts. —Scheinwerfermann

T·C20:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC) A long time ago, I made some choice with agrement of several Wikipedians. "Inline" has not exactly the same sense in aviation and automobile. In aviation "inline" is opposed to "radial" thus a "V12 inline engine" makes senses for an airplane. Ericd (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • 'Comment The issue here is not the redirect. The issue is the name of the article. I have not seen a 4 cylinder inline engine referred to as Straight-4 in ANY publications (Road & Track, Car and Driver, Road Test, Motor Trend, or ANY engineering reports in 40 years. It is incorrect. The article should titled inline-four engine with the re-direct for Straight-four. Is this going to be based on opinion or what is widely used? Why should this site use the less common name for any article, including an inline-four engine? If you want to improve the auto articles on this site, start with the proper names of the articles, instead of individual preferences, and if one is found and proven to be widely used, use that one. I haven't read one statement here that states Straight-four is more widely used than inline-4.Vegavairbob (talk) 22:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Careful, Vegavairbob, you appear to be making some errors. The most substantial one is that you are conflating what you remember having personally seen with what is correct. That's not tenable, either in the real world or on Wikipedia. We have had editors in this discussion state they have seen and heard "straight four"; your gainsaying them doesn't make them wrong, doesn't make you right, and doesn't help advance your case. (You needn't believe me on this one; here and here are some reliable sources using straight-4 engine or straight-four engine.) You also seem to be conflating what you don't happen to like with objective incorrectness; that's also problematic. Moreover, please keep in mind that America does not have a monopoly on terminology in English. As at least one other editor has noted, prevalence of straight-4 or inline-4 may well vary by English-speaking region.
We have here a discussion about two names that are both about equally defensible, technically and linguistically. That makes it a relatively unimportant battle. Which is not to say your ideas are unimportant or not valued, just that you may want to have a cuppa tea, lower your voice (please; you are veering near to the edge of incivility), and think carefully about whether winning this particular battle will be worth the cost. To get a sense of what a relatively important terminological question looks like, please see here and here (the latter is an example of how a very involved, impassioned editor can change his mind and pursue a third option satisfactory to all parties to end a fruitless tug-o'-war).
Also, please, for the nth time in as many months, as you have been repeatedly asked by numerous editors on your talk page and elsewhere, make all your edits in one go rather than making an edit, then editing your edit, then editing your edit of your edit in a series of little tweaks. As has been explained to you numerous times, your endless series of little tweaks is disruptive because it creates edit conflicts and makes it difficult for others to contribute to the discussion. As I type this, I am on attempt number six to contribute to the discussion; faced each time with an edit conflict caused by your changing your comments one word or punctuation mark at a time. Please stop it. Thanks (again) for trying to edit coöperatively. —Scheinwerfermann T·C22:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have not seen Straight-4 or Straight-four used to describe an inline -4 engine in 40 years of publications and engineering reports. In the 70's when a V4 was available in Europe it might have been used then (in Europe) but its never been used in America to describe an inline-4 engine.Isn't that where the Straight 6 and Straight 8 designations came from? Even the 1962 Chevy II 153 cubic-inch 4-cylinder engine was referred to as an inline-4.Vegavairbob (talk)
Comment Let's pick a world-wide Auto publication, Road & Track. They have never used Straight-4 to describe an inline-4 engine. If you want to know which is "correct" you would have to use the leading auto publications as setting the example instead of an opinion of a few of the editors here, including me. I'm saying its correct only because they use it. Who do you want to go by. Don't take my word for it. Pick up a copy of Road and Track and look at their annual specifications pages issue for world-wide cars from ANY year. They use inline-4.Vegavairbob (talk) 23:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please remember, we work by consensus here, number one. Consensus does not require unanimity, and sometimes the consensus goes against our personal opinions and preferences. Number two, Road & Track is an American publication. It's probably sold worldwide, but that does not make a worldwide publication, nor does it make it authoritative with respect to this particular snippet of English usage. —Scheinwerfermann T·C23:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Road & Track may be sold worldwide but it is based in the USA and uses USA terminology. I have personally read and heard both terms in common use (Australia tends to get both American and British terms because we get publications from both). This argument really comes down to a coin toss over which is more technically correct. In which case consistency with the other articles becomes the tie-breaker. Stepho-wrs (talk) 00:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunatly, Scheinwerfermann, you seem to have done a little 'fishing' - referring to your Google books search. Basically, what I am trying to say - if you wish to find a 'minority' point of view, then if you keep looking long and hard enough, you will eventually find something to support it. Whilst I don't have a problem with that approach per-se, in this particular issue, it is actually unhelpful on two grounds. Firstly, you did not include a similar Google books search to look for 'inline four', 'inline 4', 'in-line four' - etc, for comparision. Secondly, from the books thrown up in your quoted Google books search, in the face of it, the overwhealming majority seem to be North American publications - and so do not represent a worldwide view. Therefore, the 'weight' of their value as evidence should be appropriately lowered. Thanks for reading. 78.32.143.113 (talk) 11:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Which one is more widely used? I'll give you one guess. No one here has shown current name of article is correct, more widely used, or preferred by car authorities ie. Road & Track and auto companies engineering reports. Personal preferences are illogical for this site. So be it. A lot of the auto related material on this site leaves a lot to be desired. I'm trying to help, but sometimes maybe things are better just left alone. It's easier.Vegavairbob (talk) 00:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vegavairbob, inline four is by far the most used, but the reason for using "straight-four" is only for consistency with the other straight-x articles. Using the Olympics as an analogy, most people use the terms "Sydney 2000 Olympic Games" and "Beijing 2008 Olympic Games" as opposed to "2000 Summer Olympics" and "2008 Summer Olympics" titles used here only for consistency. I guess the only way the change is going to happen based on current responses is to rename every other article to inline-x. And by using a quick Google test and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), you may have a chance:
  • Support - with hyphenation of in-line - Looking at a formal academic textbook (officially approved by all UK colleges and Universities) - Hiller's Fundamentals of Motor Vehicle Technology (how do you 'reference' a printed textbook ???), page 47, 2nd column clearly states:

    In-line The cylinders are arranged in a single row, side by side, and parallel to one another. They may be vertical, horizontal or inclined at any convenient angle. In-line engines usually have four or six cylinders but five- and three-cylinder engines are used, with a few eight-cylinder in-line engines produced in the past.

    It goes on to describe Vee and Opposed engine configurations too. From what I can gather, describing an engine as a straight-whatever is simply slang language, perpetuated through 'fan sites', forums, blogs, and the likes - and has never had any official meaning in automotive technology nomenclature. Rgds 78.32.143.113 (talk) 11:29, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Somebody finally came up with something. Thank you for this research. You made my day. I was getting frustrated trying to prove "Straight" is not the proper title for the article. Straight-four engine would redirect to Inline-four engine. Let's get the title change done please.Vegavairbob (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unfortunately, it's not very good research. From what I can gather, describing an engine as a straight-whatever is simply slang language, perpetuated through 'fan sites', forums, blogs, and the likes - and has never had any official meaning in automotive technology nomenclature. It's a bit of a jump to say that whatever is not used in official and technological literature is slang, but even so it's not true... the term straight eight has a long history as the normal way to distinguish single-bank engines from vee engines, particularly in luxury and racing cars, such as the Leyland Eight or Duesenberg J. Sales literature is quite official, and is where the term straight eight was popularised. I'm guessng that the term inline was originally used to distinguish single-bank aero engines from radials and rotaries. Both terms have a history, and both are in current usage. In Australia, inline four is particularly used to describe motorcycle engines. Andrewa (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Huh, well if a University approved textbook is "not very good research", then do please state what IS????? !!! <shakes head in amazement> OK, me describing straight as 'slang' may appear a little insensitive or whatever, but you have still FAILED to cite any authoritive sources to prove that straight is used today as a formal description. I accept your point on the Leyland and Duesenberg - but there use of the term straight was 80 to 90 years ago!!! - and just like today in the 21stC, 99.9% of men no longer doff their cap to a pretty lady, straight has NO formal useage in automotive technology. Things evolve, and just because there was some minority historical use of a straight eight (but NOT four or six cylinders), that, in my humble opinion, bears absolutely NO justification for its continued use in a supposedly dynamic enclyclopaedia that is Wikipedia! But I do thank you for the motorcycle issue - all motorcyles use the term inline or in-line. Rgds 78.32.143.113 (talk) 08:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support/Comment Because Im not native english speaker its slightly hard to say something... but I would use the most common

term, which seems to be inline-4 per google research...we should not use straight-4 if the only reason to use it is consistency with other straight-x engines --Typ932 T·C 15:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I have striked my oppose vote above, but I am reluctant to switch to an immediate support without some explanation. Here in Australia, "straight-six" and "inline-six" are both widely used (as opposed to "straight-four" which is used a lot less). I know this by the reading of auto magazines and web sites over the years and by the Google test ("straight-six" OR "straight-6": 13,900 results (Austr. only); "inline-six" OR "inline-6": 10,400 results (Austr. only)). What I need to know is whether or not "inline-six" is used as much as, or more than "straight-six" internationally. I know the Google test above shows that "inline-six" is more common, but Google may not be accurately representative. Could any other editors from countries outside of Australia confirm the results of the test below? If yes, then I'll change to support for the renaming of ALL straight-x articles to inline-x. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for striking out your original vote. But can I ask what/how Australian textbooks officially use? Just because a word is widely used (weather that be inline, straight or whatever), it doesn't make it an 'offical' or 'formal' word. The Aussie term Ute springs to mind - Ute may be exceedingly widely used in Australia, but that doesn't make it formal nomenclature. Rgds 78.32.143.113 (talk) 08:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Inline 4 seems to only be used commonly in America to represent a 4 cylinder engine, the rest of the world uses straight-four. Redirects deal with the people who search for inline 4 and both terms are factually correct and commonly used, therefore the move would be redundant. Matty (talk) 06:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is completely incorrect. If you are going to make sweeping statements like that, you are going to have to back it up. Using Google and a UK-restricted search: "straight-four" (3,030); "straight-4" (7,300); "in-line-four" OR "inline-four" (8,550) and "in-line-4" OR "inline-4" (9,200). The evidence speaks for itself, but to your argument's benignity Google is not always right). OSX (talk • contributions) 06:50, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, at least my argument is a little stronger than "This isn't what I want, change it.". I'm merely saying that i've never heard of a four cylinder engine being called an inline 4 outside of American publications, and that both of the terms are interchangeable and will always be and therefore moving the article is redundant. I don't care about this article's name enough to google search how many times the name comes up in each country, i'm just letting my voice be heard. Matty (talk) 10:38, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Changing the name will not improve anything. Both terms seem equally obscure as this is the most common type of a 4-cyl engine nowadays, commonly referred to as simply "4-cylinder engine" or I4. Moreover, the whole article is written in a way that consistently refers to this engine as straight-4, so changing the title will require some re-writing. I would recommend keeping it as is and leaving the rest to redirects. CFHerbert (talk) 14:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Canvassing

Please note Wikipedia:Canvassing.

The following campaign appears to violate the guideline, in that it openly seeks votes in a certain direction.

The contributor in question is relatively new, and possibly doesn't know that this is frowned upon. I have left a note on their talk page. Andrewa (talk) 01:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Sorry, I only contacted editors to check out the discussion and vote! Didn't know I couldn't ask others to participate. It is posted in the WikiAutos page. Thank you Andrewa. Vegavairbob (talk) 01:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suspected as much. The problem is, we have better things to do with our time than to conduct such campaigns. If it weren't for this guideline, I suppose I could now conduct a similar campaign to solicit oppose votes. As it is, we now just have to ask the closing admin to try to sort out whether the survey has been influenced by your canvassing, and how much if so. Andrewa (talk) 02:08, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Only one editor has voted as a result of my messages. Half of them are editors I contacted after they posted comments and didn't vote but sounded in favor so I wasn't trying to change anyone's opinion. I dought it had any influence and I'm sure the remaining editors on that list won't vote at this point.Vegavairbob (talk) 02:11, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The closing admin will take into account this and will more than likely invalidate any votes made by people you have canvassed, even if they would have found the discussion and voted support by themselves. You're only hurting your cause. Matty (talk) 02:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I had voted here BEFORE Vegavairbob messaged me on my talk page, as the timestamps here and on my talk page will show - I'm just leaving this comment here to make the Admins job a little easier. Thanks. 78.32.143.113 (talk) 07:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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