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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Caerwine (talk | contribs) at 06:40, 26 November 2005 (→October 2005). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

August 2005

splitting {{UK-struct-stub}}

This has about 1000 articles. Suggest splitting off some bits of it, but not clear which. Morwen - Talk 12:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

London and Scotland would remove two large sections, I think. Grutness...wha? 06:32, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't thinking geographically but more sort of church-stub etc but London and Scotland would be good idea, yes! Morwen - Talk 09:28, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
There is a London WikiProject, so that one's definitely worth considering. Separating out buildings by use is viable, though - although that would need to tie in with all the struct-stub categories, so might need more thought. I could see a series of UK-church-stub, US-church-stub etc, and also UK-stadium-stub, Euro-stadium-stub, etc. The church one might be difficult, though, since it would be best if it covered all places of worship, not just Christian ones, so the naming of it might be a problem. I'd definitely go with London-struct-stub though - buildings by type could easily be split off that one later as well if necessary. Grutness...wha? 09:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I spent a few days sorting {{rail-stub}} articles into, among others, {{UK-depot-stub}} which is already a subcategory of both {{UK-struct-stub}} and {{rail-stub}}. Many of the station articles had both rail-stub and UK-struct-stub, so sorting one also sorted the other; on articles that had both, I removed both and used the more specific stub category. I wouldn't necessarily object to sorting by location, but sorting by structure type seems more appropriate to me. slambo 19:16, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Mmmm, maybe. I still think that having a WikiProject able to find buildings on the city it's working on might make a London-struct-stub useful. But there'd be nothing wrong with having a UK-church-stub with London-church-stub as a subcat of it, so perhaps that would be the way to go. Wish there was some better term than church, though, to cover all places of worship, not just Christian ones. Grutness...wha? 14:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

September 2005

More Math stubs

I've had another look at the Mathematics stubs, after using the new categories (see above), to reduce the number to around 800. There are some more stub categories that might be useful to reduce that a bit further. I've done a count of the first page, and the most common ones are Number theory (12 articles), Applied mathematics (17 articles) and Category theory (10 articles). If that is typical for all 4 pages that would give 48 articles, 68, and 40 respectively. That might not be representative, as I removed about 30 articles from the first page in the middle of sorting, and the first page is what is left after that. Given that, we can predict a similar removal for the other pages removes about 100 articles, giving about 700, or 3.5 pages. This predicts 42, 60 and 35 articles. I've made a subpage with a list of the entries I've categorised: User:Silverfish/Math Categories. The Other category is for entries I've not given a category. Some might fit into existing or proposed category. There are almost 100 articles in that category, so categorising those might up the number a bit.

I think the case for Applied mathematics is pretty compelling, but I'm not sure about the other two.

There also the issue of the Geometry stubs category, which has grown to about 360 articles. I've been including the more Geometrical seeming bits of Topology in there, but has been big for quite a while. I don't have any suggestions for how to sort it. Any ideas would be appreciated. Silverfish 11:03, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to see some concrete examples of new math stub types. By the way, we should give Silverfish a big thanks, for he was constantly on my watchlist lately classifying the math stubs. Oleg Alexandrov 01:01, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'jm proposing Applied Mathematics ({{Appliedmath-stub}} or {{Mathapplied-stub}}), and tentatively proposing Category theory ({{Cattheory-stub}}), and Number theory ({{Numtheory-stub}}). Number theory might be a bit tricky with the overall with the Number stubs, but the ones I've counted are aren't about specific numbers or types of number. I haven't proposed anything for Geometry, as that's more of an aside. Silverfish 09:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fine with me. If a category of stubs is too big, the best thing to do is to split it into smaller more specific stub categories. Oleg Alexandrov 22:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a look at Geometry stubs, and just from the names, a lot seem to be polyhedra, in the 3 dimensional sense. I'll propose {{Polyhedron-stub}}, which should remove a lot from the Geometry stubs category. This would cover articles about particular polyhedra. Silverfish 23:55, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

October 2005

US-hist-stub

Some sub categories might be a good idea.

  • US-precolonial-hist-stub
  • US-colonial-hist-stub
    • US-UK-colonial-hist-stub for the eastern US
    • US-FR-colonial-hist-stub for the Louisana purchase area
    • US-ES-colonial-hist-stub for the southwest

I have been working on some French and Indian War British Forts in WV. They are relavent to UK and US history. We are not supposed to us two stubs, but to be accurate you need to, a US-UK-colonial-hist-stub would solve that problem, and these suggested stubs will define the era that the historical place or event belongs in. It will give it more context. --71Demon 01:39, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • My initial thought is no. Double stubbing is not expressly prohibited, and the stub names proposed above are way too confusing to be useful. Can you give us some examples of some articles you've been working on? Here's one I've worked on recently: Fort Loudoun (Tennessee)—it's double-stubbed with US-hist-stub and US-struct-stub. Another is Spanish Florida—double-stubbed with US-hist-stub and Spain-stub (would be Spain-hist-stub if it existed). — Fingers-of-Pyrex 02:39, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Subcategories of Automobile stubs

Also, please see Truck-stub below. Many truck articles are now classified under AUTO-stub.

Just had a look at Category:Automobile stubs, and the list has grown quite long. Propose to split into car manufacturers, so that all cars produced by Ford, would be listed in {{ford-auto-stub}}, all by GM in the {{gm-auto-stub}} and so on. bjelleklang 12:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Overpopulated category certainly needs to be sorted. Please use hyphens in names (e.g., {{bmw-auto-stub}}). Would {{auto-part-stub}} (Category:Automobile part stubs) and/or {{auto-term-stub}} (Category:Automobile terminology stubs) be useful, too? — Fingers-of-Pyrex 13:40, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than by manufacturers, I think a better immediate split would be US-auto-stub, UK-auto-stub and Japan-auto-stub. Along with those that don't qualify in those subcats that would probably cut the category into four fairly even pieces. If any of those need further splitting, then manufacturer would be an obvious next level down. Grutness...wha? 00:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Could probably be a good short-term solution, but sooner or later, these lists would probably also have to be split up again, with quite a lot more articles to sort. I still think that creating subcategories based on manufacturer would be a better solution. bjelleklang 00:48, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that either proposed split is a good idea. I'm doubtful that a company based split is particularly viable. There are an awful lot of stubs that come from companies that only produced a few models and thus would never leave {{auto-stub}} save by becoming not a stub. Furthermore, editors interested in the models of a single manufacturer could easily enough start with that manufacturer's article and see what models are in need of being de-stubbed. A country based split also has its problems. Is Chrysler US or German? Is Jaguar UK or US, etc? So what do I propose instead?
  • First of all, there clearly are enough stubs for {{auto-corp-stub}} This would have the added benefit of also helping to trim the Corporation stubs down somewhat.
  • Secondly, An era-based split for the car models themselves. The only real problem is defining the eras. I would suggest the following, but I am flexible concerning the names and periods.

That gives us five stub types in all which should be enough to provide a first approximation. Caerwine 05:15, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sounds fair, although I suspect that many stub sorters will get the categories confused. BTW, shouldn't the first one be veteran-auto-stub? Or are veteran cars called brass cars in the US? Grutness...wha? 22:34, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's my understanding that what in the UK are called veteran cars (before 1905) and Edwardian cars (1905-1918) are lumped together in the US as Brass Era cars. However, while the end of WWI is of fairly universal significance as a historical marking point, the death of Queen Vicky is a pretty much a UK thing. I fudged the categories slightly as well for ease of use, as I figure the end of WWI, the end of WWII, and the end of Disco, three notable disasters in human history, should be easy to remember for the amateur stub sorter. Caerwine 06:47, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
QV was 1901, but I get your point. As to the death of disco, I thought that was a celebration :). I'll accept the death of John Lennon as the third notable disaster though. Grutness...wha? 07:17, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry to say that I'm still not convinced, as there are close to 1400 stubs in the category. If we sort by production era, I don't think that it'll make the problem go away, only help to make some of the subcategories somewhat shorter. I do not agree with your argument that any future author could look at the manufacturer's article, as there are no way of telling if all models are listed there! Although your suggestion was good, it would involve quite a lot of work compared to sorting by manufacturer, as you would have to check every article, so I still think that sorting by manufacturer is a better idea. bjelleklang 07:35, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Had a look at the automobile article, and suggest that the stubs are sorted in the same manner.
This gives the following:

bjelleklang 22:26, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Take a good look at the Automobile stubs. There are maybe 150 GM stubs, 100 Ford stubs, and 75 Daimler-Chrysler stubs in the category, and those companies are only able to reach the over 60 level by combining all articles from all brands used or acquired by those companies. I don't think any other manufacturer could reach 60 stubs because an awful lot of those stubs are for models from companies that went defunct after only producing a few models, and the ones that last tend to have most of their articles not be stubs. So after doing a manufacturer-based sort, of the 1538 suto stubs at present, we'd still be left with around 1200 stubs in the main category. However, what do you think about revising my proposed categories to be decade based:

Might be easier to keep track of for some people, tho they are a bit more fudgy with the names than my first idea. Caerwine 22:17, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Have created {{auto-corp-stub}} as it was not at all controvesial or disputed and have begun to populate it. I have run into one complication tho. A number of the early automobile articles are about short-lived companies that produced nly one model and include info about both the comapany and the vehicle that produced it. For now, I'm generally leaving such stubs in {{auto-stub}} unless it's clear that the focus is on the company and not the car. Caerwine 03:27, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If nobody have any serious objections to my suggestion (se above, total of 6 subcategories), I'll start sorting wednesday or thursday. Bjelleklang - talk 02:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Is there some reason the categories were created as Category:Foo auto stubs (e.g. Category:Brass auto stubs) and not Category:Foo automobile stubs? --Mairi 19:53, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Truck stub

Propose "TRUCK-stub" Currently all truck stubs: like truck manufacturers, trucking companies, terms, etc., are classified as AUTO-stubs. I would like to break-off the truck releated stubs.

{{Truck-stub}} template request I just started the Tank truck article and found no {{Truck-stub}} under "Transportation" so I added the generic {{stub}} template. It was soon found out (good for you guys) and it was replaced with the {{Van-stub}} which doesn't really fit very well. Anyone feeling creative out there, I think we should have a logo-enhanced {{Truck-stub}} template (a tank truck hauling several thousand gallons of gasoline/petrol ain't a van). Thanks, --hydnjo talk 00:55, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

True, and that category would be useful - question is, though, do you want it for trucks, or things like the article you mentioned, which is a lorry? And what about artics, which are a little bit bigger than lorries and a whole lot bigger than trucks (they're the same as the whole truck and trailer, in fact)? In other words, the term truck is used differently in differen countries - what I call a truck is what you'd probably call the tractor part of a truck. So we need a term that's a bit more language-neutral. Perhaps Bigrig-stub would be a solution...? Grutness...wha? 01:55, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The Tank truck article will include small (home hydroseeding slurry or lawn fertilizer/pest control, up to 1000 gal.) to medium (local delivery heating oil or home septic removal, 1000-3000 gal.) to large (major delivery gasoline/petrol, over 3000 gal.) sized trucks. I'm not yet sure about the exact breakpoints so the examples may be imprecise. More importantly, the truck-stub template that I'm requesting would apply to most of the vehicles in the List of truck types or any other vehicle that someone thinks is a truck. The Bigrig-stub idea seems a bit narrow as there are small and medium trucks. I'm just hoping for something more descriptive than the {{van-stub}}notice that is now on the article. If it turns out that I'm making an unreasonable or undoable request or if the word "truck" is too ambiguous for a stub then I'll make do with what already exists.
Or, we could have two templates, {{truck-stub}} and {{lorry-stub}} so as to avoid a difficult international catchall. Or, how about a {{truck/lorry-stub}} or if you prefer a {{lorry/truck-stub}} template.
I understand the need to have some kind of triage to deal with stub proliferation but I don't think that "truck" is all that esoteric.

--hydnjo talk 17:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would make sense to have some kind of generic {{vehicle-stub}} under Transport, and then {{auto-stub}}, {{van-stub}}, {{bus-stub}}, {{motorcycle-stub}} and any others we need could be subcategories, if there seems to be sufficient demand for them. Odd vehicles that fall through the cracks in the definitions or that might be called a "lorry" somewhere and a "semi-trailer" elsewhere could just go into {{vehicle-stub}} until the semantics get sorted out. GTBacchus 21:52, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse my ignorance here but you think that a {{vehicle-stub}} should supercede "truck"? My kid's bike is a vehicle! Tell you what, when you folks figure it all out, please as a courtesy (you know where I live) , let me know for future reference. Thanks, --hydnjo talk 22:24, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Hydnjo, a vehicle is any "non-living means of transportation." This includes trucks/lorries. So it is obvious that {{vehicle-stub}} is about the only natural supercessor to {{truck-stub}}, just like {{sport-stub}} supercedes {{football-stub}}. Aecis 22:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
One possibility would be to have a generic vehicle-stub as a catch-all and to have something for trucks/lorries etc. if there's a general vehicle stub, then double hyphenating becomes an option, and we could make goods-vehicle-stub or haulage-vehicle-stub for anything from panel vans right up to Kenworths. Grutness...wha? 00:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I can't believe that I caused so much anguish over a damn {{truck-stub}} request. Prior to the "stub sorting" effort I would have just made the template myself. In deference to your effort I held back and sought your approval. I also feel confident that this neuron flurry could have been put to better use. My apologies for bringing up such a mundane subject and wasting so much of your time. I continue to be supportive of your project and hope that it will serve us well. --hydnjo talk 07:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Heh :) Don't worry - this is standard practice here. And for good reason - changing the name of an article takes a couple of clicks - changing the name of a template-category combination takes a hell of a lot of effort, since it requires null-edits on every article that carries the template. So we want to be sure it's done right first time. I'm pretty sure that there will be a usable stub category soon - it's only the minor details that will take a bit of time. Grutness...wha? 07:23, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
:::::How do we know what is modern? (Erebus555 11:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC))[reply]
TRUCK-STUB

...is the name I want. Most people around the world know what a truck is, and those whose don't can be educated by.....US! Lorry=truck=camión de carga; cargo-carrier would be a second choice. How about: "Cargo-Vehicle-stub"...?? WikiDon 23:00, 18 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Heavy motor vehicle.........????
  • Although I haven't participated in this debate until now, I'd say that {{truck-stub}} is the best choice. It's simple, short, and almost universal; just about everyone who speaks english knows what it means. If the category gets large enough, subcats similar to the ones found in [[|Category:Automobile_stubs|auto stubs]] could be added. Also, I don't think we need to add to many categories, at the moment I'd say that {{bus-stub}}, {{truck-stub}} and {{motorcycle-stub}} should suit our needs. Bjelleklang - talk 19:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Split of {{footybio-stub}}

(from WP:SFD) This category has been proposed for renaming from Category:Football (soccer) player stubs to Category:Football (soccer) biography stubs. At the same time, a split seems in order, as there are currently over 2200 stubs. I've gone through about 15% of them and sorted them by continent, and counted Europe 214, Africa 54, South America 24, North America 16, Oceania 13, Asia 12. Within Europe the two biggest countries are England (59) and Scotland (21), with no others over 12. I'd suggest the following split:

Europe could possibly be split further in future, if other countries experience a spurt of stub growth. I've also simplified the category names, leaving out the word "soccer" where "football" is unambiguous (see also the subcats of Category:Football (soccer) stubs). sjorford #£@%&$?! 09:32, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me - (BTW, this is Grutness, currently not logged in). 00:33, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Two complaints, one major and one minor:
The major is that in order to be consistent with the names we've used for other stubs, three of these should be {{Euro-footybio-stub}}, {{SouthAm-footybio-stub}}, and {{NorthAm-footybio-stub}}.
The minor is that unless your 15% is randomly picked from all over the alphabet, the actual distribution for all of them is likely to be quite different than what you have seen so far. In my past experience, Asian biographies tend to be underrepresented at the start of the alphabet, so unless you picked a different segment, I'm not too worried about that stub, but I do have a slight bit of concern with the Oceania stub. Nothing major since if it doesn't reach 60, it'll be real close, and it probably does reach 60. Caerwine 07:11, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
OK, making the template names consistent makes sense (I thought that would be the minor complaint!) IIRC, I took the first ten names from each column on each category page, so there will be some clustering but all parts of the alphabet should be represented. I may do a more detailed check shortly to firm up those figures. sjorford #£@%&$?! 08:32, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Amazing what you can get done on a slow day at work...I've put revised figures above, and full census results here. It looks like Oceania does only just make it after all, but I think the convenience of splitting the stubs along exact confederation lines makes all these categories worthwhile. Some other country splits may be possible too, although after England and Scotland the largest is Brazil with 71, so that's probably not worthwhile yet. sjorford #£@%&$?! 19:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Two more points. One is that there's currently a discussion over whether to have stub categories use adjective or noun forms. I.e., Category:European football biography stubs or Category:Europe footnall biography stubs. The other is that if most of those Oceania stubs are Australia stubs, as I would suspect, it might be just as well to leave them sitting in the main category and sorting out an Australia soccer biography stub when the time is right. Depends on how many stubs would be left in the base category if an Oceania were created. Caerwine 22:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
On the last point, I know of one kiwi stub-maker who is soccer mad (he's made half a dozen NZ soccer club stubs lately), so don't be surprised if there are quite a few New Zealand players in there as well. Grutness...wha? 09:32, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
At a quick glance, I saw the best part of a dozen NZ soccer players in there (admittedly I had a hand in the creation of a few of them, so they were easier to spot!). That would be 20% of the Oceania footballers. Given how closely associated (no pun intended) the two countries are in terms of soccer (about as close as England and Wales, in terms of leagues and where national players play), I'd stick with oceania-footybio-stub. Grutness...wha? 10:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Split of {{footy-stub}} and {{euro-footyclub-stub}}

I have now gone through Category:European football club stubs. I already proposed {{Sweden-footyclub-stub}} (45 stubs) and {{Scotland-footyclub-stub}} (58). To that I would like to add {{NI-footyclub-stub}} (Northern Ireland, currently 35 stubs) and {{Belgium-footyclub-stub}} (41 stubs). A search through the football clubs by nation categories might bring these countries above threshold level. Next in line would be Italy (currently 29 stubs) and Finland (26). I would also like to move all the club articles that haven't been restubbed continentally yet to a new club stub reservoir, {{footyclub-stub}}. Any thoughts on this? Aecis 14:22, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I will indefinitely postpone the splitting of {{euro-footyclub-stub}}, which doesn't imperatively need to be taken care of. However, as I have noted in another proposal, I've now gone through the letters A to G of {{footy-stub}} again, and I've already come across 81 football-related organizations, player unions, associations, federations and confederations. So I would like to propose {{footy-org-stub}}, for football-related organizations. Aecis 22:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished the count, and there are 120 "{{footy-org-stub}}s" in {{footy-stub}}. Methinks this is more than enough for a separate stub category. Aecis 20:27, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished restubbing the leftover clubs from {{footy-stub}} to {{footyclub-stub}} - there are 100, so I doubt if {{Africa-footyclub-stub}} is going to get big enough (currently 19). I'd support a merge of these back into the parent category. sjorford #£@%&$?! 14:58, 18 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Most clubs in {{footyclub-stub}} are from Asia (42). Canada has 13, Australia 12, Mexico 9 and 30 are from other countries. So under the given circumstances, I think it's best to move the African clubs from {{Africa-footyclub-stub}} to {{footyclub-stub}}. Once {{Africa-footyclub-stub}} has been empty for 24 hours, it can be speedily deleted (right?). Aecis 21:30, 18 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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