Wikipedia:WikiProject Objectivism/Cross talk

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Proposal for Deletion of Content Fork Articles

I propose listing these articles for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Objectivist_metaphysics

Not speedy deletion, as some editors may want to review them for opportunities to merge content with the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) article. Karbinski (talk) 11:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I contend that there should not be a page or section dedicated simply to criticism. Such entries should be merged into the relevant sections of the articles they concern. CABlankenship (talk) 03:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography of work on Objectivism

What to do about this? It was pointed out on the talk page years ago that it contains unsupported appraisals of the quality of the works listed. Okay, it has a template asking for cites, but I am assuming the commentary is the original work of an editor, and not drawn from third party sources. No objection to it as a straightforward list, like other Wikipedia biography articles. Surely the commentary has to go?

Also, the title is a problem, partly because of the use of lower case "w" which makes it hard to find. I think the article needs to be called something like Objectivism (Ayn Rand) Bibliography, and the current page redirect there.KD Tries Again (talk) 13:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

I was somewhat confused as to why a Bibliography wasn't just a list --Karbinski (talk) 13:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Normally it would be worth posting on the talk page of the editor responsible asking whether he/she could supply citations, but my experience with this IP editor has been that he/she doesn't engage in discussion.KD Tries Again (talk) 14:26, 20 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

Proposed Changes

Here is what I think needs to be done in order that the article can become a balanced, verifiable resource, and be consistent in approach with other articles of this kind.

1. There is a bibliography of Rand's works at Ayn Rand. This article should list only her works on Objectivism and include a link to the Rand page for a full bibliography. Also, her works should be merged into the main alphabetical list. A separate list of periodicals should follow.

2. The section on writers "influenced" by Objectivism should be deleted, as there are no references and the article has been tagged since December 2007.

3. The critiques which are explicitly about Objectivism should be merged into the main alphabetical list. It's not usual practice at Wikipedia, and in fact it's OR, to have editors splitting works into pro- and anti- camps.

4. Same treatment for the works published after her death (why the split?) with the OR commentary removed.

5. The list of "academic" authors who have written on Objectivism has only two references. It seems to be included to make an advocacy point about Rand's recognition by academica - otherwise, why wouldn't the books/articles written simply be included in the main list? Is it suggested that none of the writers in the other lists are academics? I think it needs to go, although the two references given can be merged into the main list. If an editor knows what Michael S. Berliner wrote about Objectivism, then it should be inserted in the main list. A bibliography should be a list of works, not a list of authors claimed to have written on the subject.

6. Finally, there are questions to be raised about some of the works included. For example, Holzer, Henry Mark (2005, McFarland & Co.). Supreme Court Opinions of Clarence Thomas 1991-2006 is actually "about" or "on" Objectivism?

KD Tries Again (talk) 13:34, 21 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

#1 (no duplication with Ayn Rand#Bibliography)

The bibliography article could be a master list, should it? --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

#2 (zap influenced section)

Questionable relevance, and if the influence is generally not verifiable, prob. should have been zapped long ago. --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

#3 and #4 (sub-lists)

How should the re-structured article be broken down? by AR - books - periodicals / by others - books - periodicals. Hmmm, it sounds NPOV to just have a neutral list, but is it really NPOV to bury the few critiques amongst the rest of them? How about the by others section be sub-sectioned by topic - such as Biographical, Objectivism (about the philosophy - like Objectivism, the Philosophy of Ayn Rand), Influenced (like The Ominous Parallels), Analysis (such as Essays on Ayn Rand's <insert book here> and critiques), ...? --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

#5 (zap list of authors)

Lets do this real soon - clearly not relevant to a list of works. The list of works sorted by author just needs to be re-sorted (and the item entries changed) --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

#6 (quality filter)

There will be "discussion" I'm sure, I would recommend this is left as the ongoing task of editors after this re-structuring effort. --Karbinski (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I largely agree. I don't really mind how the list is sorted, and I don't have strong feelings about the suggestion for 3 and 4, but I'm not sure I have the knowledge to do it. I'll zap 2 and 5 unless someone raises an objection here soon.KD Tries Again (talk) 23:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

Cleaned up pretty much. For myself, life is too short to edit the Rand cites into the same list as the other writers.KD Tries Again (talk) 03:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

Hard work - someone took out all the critical works? I re-added them. If someone else wants to re-add the online sources, go ahead.KD Tries Again (talk) 04:08, 26 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

Discussion opened for Epistemology article to be blanked-out

Talk:Objectivist_epistemology#Blank-out_and_re-direct_to_section_in_Objectivism_.28Ayn_Rand.29 --Karbinski (talk) 21:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, support.KD Tries Again (talk) 16:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

Result

Was blanked-out and re-directed --Karbinski (talk) 21:54, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion opened for Ethics article to be blanked-out

Talk:Objectivist_ethics#Blank-out_and_re-direct_to_section_in_Objectivism_.28Ayn_Rand.29 --Karbinski (talk) 21:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result

Redirected to Objectivism (Ayn Rand). Skomorokh 22:36, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed deletion of Evasion (Objectivism)

I have proposed the Evasion (Objectivism) article for deletion. Please by all means feel free to decline the proposal if you can find significant treatment of the topic in reliable sources. Thanks, Skomorokh 19:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result

The tag expired and the article was deleted Skomorokh 04:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed deployment of Template:Objectivist movement

I have made this navigational template to facilitate browsing between articles on the topic. I propose that it be deployed on pages related to the movement, and that {{Ayn Rand}} be used on pages about Rand or her works. Skomorokh 22:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is a useful and very beautiful template. Some things need to be changed (e.g. "Neo-Objectivism" redirects to "Objectivist movement" now), but it's something that's been needed for a long time. I say, go ahead and deploy it. -- eksortso (talk) 05:03, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your kind words and helpful edit. I'll start introducing it tomorrow unless there are objections. Skomorokh 01:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've rolled out the template on a limited number of articles (mostly the longer biographical ones), it may need to be included on more articles but I'll leave that up to editorial discretion. Skomorokh 08:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I appreciate Skomorokh's hard work so I hope he won't take offense at a few observations. First, I notice that James Valliant is linked in the template under "theorists". He might want to hold off on that one. Second, I was reviewing a few others on that list, and I am beginning to wonder if they, too, meet the notability guidelines for WP:ACADEMIC and/or WP:N. In particular, I've tagged one (Andrew Bernstein) already. I haven't looked into the background of these authors (obviously some are highly notable), but a few are sketchy at best. J Readings (talk) 23:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, forgot to remove Valliant once the article was redirected, got that now. Shining a little light into the dark corners of Objectivism on Wikipedia is part of the rationale behind the template; the goal is to have a series of properly integrated and linked articles on worthy topics related to Objectivism, and I think finding and addressing potentially unworthy topics is fully in line with that goal. Thanks for the kind words, Skomorokh 23:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm all for the inclusion of the template. I think it's a useful tool for encyclopedia readers and, as I said, I appreciate Skomorokh taking time out of his busy schedule to make it. My only concern is that a few of these listed "theorists" may not meet the notability criteria for inclusion. I suppose, should a few of them be deemed irrelevant to the project, they can be removed easily enough at a later date. There's no rush. J Readings (talk) 00:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

James Valliant in strange places...

See here. Many if not most of these are inappropriate. In other places his name needs to be de-wikified. Also, someone should remove his snarky comment from The Passion of Ayn Rand, and his accusations against Rothbard in Libertarianism and Objectivism need to go unless a better supporting source can be found. TallNapoleon (talk) 07:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed a few, but the book is about the Objectivist movement, and the remaining articles it appears in all pertain to that. What is the problem with the references? Unless I've forgotten, we never established decisively that Valliant's work was unreliable. I trust we're not giving any credence to the unsubstantiated hearsay regarding the identity of IP 160? Skomorokh 08:07, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it's a bad idea to remove internal links to James Valliant, even though it's no longer a standalone article. As long as Wikipedia has information on a discrete topic, that topic ought to redirect to wherever the information is, so interested readers can find what they're looking for. Skomorokh 08:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm not sure why he's in the list of sources for Patrecia Scott. I also think it's just a helluva thing to charge that Rothbard was making things up about Rand, especially considering how much of a partisan Valliant is. TallNapoleon (talk) 10:19, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I confess to not having read Valliant's book, so can't comment on partisanship, but it is subtitled The Case Against the Brandens, so we should expect it to contain material on the Rand-Branden affair and fallout, in which Scott apparently played a major role. The charge against Rothbard is not exclusive to Valliant – see this account of the conflict from a source sympathetic to Rothbard – and whatever its merits, at least it's attributed as opinion in the Libertarianism and Objectivism article rather than fact. I'd like to see full citations with page numbers and quotes, but that's probably wishful thinking. It's a recurrent problem across the Rand articles how to deal with criticism and right-of-reply without seeming to take sides. I'm biased towards Rothbard, but I would like to see a rebuttal from his camp to the charges in Libertarianism and Objectivism. Skomorokh 17:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would be interested to learn if a single editor was responsible for adding all of these Valliant references throughout Wikipedia, and if so who. J Readings (talk) 01:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiblame might be able to help you out there. Skomorokh 01:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting tool. Thanks for sharing. Incidentally, would anyone be surprised to learn that anon IP 160 was responsible for adding Valliant's book to The Passion of Ayn Rand? I'm not. J Readings (talk) 01:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I'm going to propose the removal of all references to Valliant here tomorrow, after a conversation at Talk:Objectivist movement#Valliant. Hopefully that will clean up some of the dubious content and put suspicions behind us. Skomorokh 01:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[I've done a critique of Valliant's book, by the way: http://www.scribd.com/doc/9421651/The-Passion-of-James-Valliants-Criticism

-Neil Parille]

Proposed removal of references to James Valliant and The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics

Following several discussions calling into question the work of James Valliant as a reliable source (e.g. 1, 2, 3), I propose that all references to it be removed from Wikipedia until such time as it is shown to satisfy the criteria for reliable sources. If there is consensus to do so, I will begin in one week's time. Skomorokh 15:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm in favor of removing them. J Readings (talk) 18:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please do.KD Tries Again (talk) 18:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

By fire be purged. TallNapoleon (talk) 22:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that we are good to go here. J Readings (talk) 07:18, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would think that it's ok to start getting rid of them. TallNapoleon (talk) 07:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it doesn't look like there will be any more comments on this subject. J Readings (talk) 08:01, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result

All known references to Valliant and his work have been removed from the article namespace. Note that Valliant and his book remain listed at bibliography of work on Objectivism, which is a use reliant on neither his reliability or notability. Skomorokh 01:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography of work on Objectivism as a good list of articles that should be reviewed.

Tons and tons of the books and authors listed on this page are blue-links. As part of the wider consolidation I think we should go through these and merge/delete as appropriate, much as was done with the articles branching off of Objectivism (Ayn Rand). Thoughts? TallNapoleon (talk) 02:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewing these articles is a good idea – you might also want to check the subcategories of Category:Objectivism. Aside from Rand's work, there are only three books on the list with articles, as far as I can make out. A case could be made against the notability of some of the scholars, but please appreciate that it is very time-consuming to research and reference these articles (to prove notability), so I'd recommend following J.Reading's lead and tagging the problematic ones first (to warn knowledgeable editors of the issue) before putting them up for merging or deletion one or two at a time. There is more than enough reliable coverage to write those sub articles of Objectivist philosophy up again, for example; it's editorial resources that keep the topic from reaching its potential. Skomorokh 02:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In this particular instance, since we are discussing books, the relevant notability guideline to read thoroughly is WP:BK. I just started re-reading it myself and I find it to be very useful. J Readings (talk) 02:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm going to make a request to ArbCom that they allow me to tag Objectivism related articles. I'm also going to create a new article class in the Objectivism WikiProject, which I will call Consider Refactoring, for articles that we should consider merging or deleting. That will help keep them all in one place. Finally someone may also want to take a look at List of characters in Atlas Shrugged, Dagny Taggart, and John Galt (I favor trimming the former, merging the second, and probably keeping the third, although a merge might be justified there too. TallNapoleon (talk) 02:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I'm sorry, I forgot you were topic banned. Have you or Snowded considered asking for early release – time off for good behaviour and all that? I'm sure no-one would object. Custom classes are tricky, as the Project uses {{WPBannerMeta}}; you'll have to take a look at the documentation there and possibly put in a request. I'm not going to touch the characters; fiction articles are cesspools and Gladstein is the only scholar who will have written anything worth referencing for the most part. Skomorokh 03:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we could just decide to use "C-class" to mean "this article is on death row awaiting its final appeal". And yeah, I'm putting in a request on ArbComm and will link here when it's up. I intend to voluntarily limit myself to 0RR except in cases of vandalism, if I'm given early release from my topic-ban. TallNapoleon (talk) 03:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's my request to Arbcomm. I've not notified other users because the change would only affect me. TallNapoleon (talk) 03:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gulching

This is something else to look at. It may well qualify as a neologism, and is quite badly lacking in sources. TallNapoleon (talk) 03:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It takes about fifteen seconds to confirm that neither of the references used are reliable sources. The term doesn't appear in Atlas Shrugged itself. The article has no support whatsoever. It's as if I were to write an essay on "Galting", claim it derived from Atlas, post it to a web page and then write a WP article on it.KD Tries Again (talk) 16:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

See below section on the AfD. Skomorokh 01:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Culling WikiProject Objectivism Articles (and adding some new ones in)

There are a number of articles in the project that are only related tangentially to Objectivism. I'm of the opinion that the project should be of only narrow scope, and so I will be removing these. I've removed two so far, Murray Rothbard and Whittaker Chambers. I also added in Mozart Was a Red, since it is a satire on Rand. If people disagree with me let me know and I will revert. TallNapoleon (talk) 02:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I had added Rothbard and Chambers simply because they were in a subcategory of Category:Objectivism (Category:Critics of Objectivism), no objection to removal. Good call on Mozart Was a Red also. Skomorokh 03:07, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Signing up for the WikiProject

I would encourage our regular editors (Snowded, Karbinski, Skomorokh, J. Readings) to put themselves on the WikiProject Objectivism members list. I feel lonely there :( TallNapoleon (talk) 02:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

...why do I feel like I am signing up for a Summer in purgatory? Skomorokh 03:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, this isn't that bad. Last year I did a cleanup of schismatic traditionalist Catholic bishops, pretty much entirely on my own. Now that was a mess. But we should still see about getting an admin or two involved with the project. TallNapoleon (talk) 03:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Was planning on it, just didn't want to jump in first, being that I cleared the list. --Karbinski (talk) 12:13, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Only because you asked TallNapoleon, not sure if it is Purgatorio or the 5th circle of Inferno --Snowded (talk) 17:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sloth always was my favorite sin. TallNapoleon (talk) 00:38, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notification

I am requesting that Arbcomm unban me from Ayn Rand-related mainspace. You can see and comment on my request here. TallNapoleon (talk) 00:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: Use C-Class to mean "target for merge or deletion"

There seem to be a great deal of articles about that we want to see merged or deleted. I would propose that we use C-Class to tag these articles. It will make it easier for us to keep track of them all. Thoughts? TallNapoleon (talk) 20:12, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You mean paying attention to all those boxes on the talk pages? hmmmm - lol - seems like a bunch of work, and each deletion still gets discussed. How about creating a bullet list with links: adding to the list puts an article on the block, then we discuss only the ones that one or more editors defend, and those left on the block get cut a la speedy deletion as we can presume no controversy (I don't know what a reasonable amount of time would be, 3 weeks?). Just my thoughts. --Karbinski (talk) 20:57, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we'd template the articles at the same time we add them to the list? --Karbinski (talk) 20:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, since we'd be templating at the same time, this basically just lets us auto-sort things, so less effort on our part, and then discussions can take place at individual articles' talk pages. BTW, is there anyway to include the cross-talk as part of the WikiProject header? TallNapoleon (talk) 21:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure, I just added the project to the cross-talk header --Karbinski (talk) 21:12, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What about existing C category articles? --Karbinski (talk) 21:18, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If we decided to keep them, we'd recategorize them as "Start" or B-class. TallNapoleon (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just did some playing around, and created the category: Category:Objectivism_Articles_Being_Considered_For_Deletion - how about using that? --Karbinski (talk) 21:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just messing around, the C-category thing will be more conveniant, and is already built into the project page, I say yes to this proposal --Karbinski (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a fan of this proposal, but if you must go ahead with it, please use NA instead of C – it's equally trackable but won't disrupt the projects assessment ratings as much. Skomorokh 17:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gulching nominated for deletion

The discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Gulching. KD Tries Again (talk) 16:20, 16 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

Journal of Ayn Rand Studies

The "Controversy" section to this article appears to be some gossip from an unreliable source. In addition, it involves the writings of one Andrew Bernstein whose work (for the moment) appears to lack any verifiable notability. That aside, the source used to document the gossip should probably be removed from the article unless a colleague here or on the noticeboard can confirm its importance as a reliable source. Thoughts? J Readings (talk) 02:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some scattered comments:

Notability is not a requirement for inclusion within articles; relevance is. Bernstein is not so small a fish in the Objectivist pond that his association with the JARS – or lack thereof – would not merit mention. I'm culpable for writing the meat of the article as a stub, thus giving the "controversy" the appearance of undue weight, but that can be rectified through expansion. Until then, reverting to a version like this would ameliorate the coat-racking concerns.

As far as scholars go, Stephan Kinsella is published in the right places, though mostly with respect to law (in which field he is an academic). LewRockwell.com is an established forum for libertarian editorials. I'm not committed either way on the reliability of the source, but it's not an obvious candidate for removal.

Shoring up this article would be a great stride in the ongoing cleanup of the Objectivism articles. Just as it's important to purge Wikipedia of unreliable blogs, walled gardens and Valliants, so too is presenting the most professional representation of encyclopedic Objectivist topics.

Skomorokh 02:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Its seems what is to be reported is that Objectivists don't contribute to the journal, not because JARS excludes them, but by their own choice. The Bernstein thing is an illustration of the point. I think the first problem here is that its not a controversy qua JARS, or even a personal controversy for Bernstein, it is simply an event indicative of JARS standing amongst contemporary Objectivist professionals. The second problem is that the content is trying to imply "Objectivists don't contribute to the journal, not because JARS excludes them, but by their own choice" instead of being explicit. This may because no secondary sources discuss JARS in this context. --Karbinski (talk) 16:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Valliant revisited

Following the above discussion, I went ahead and removed all the references to James Valliant and his book The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics that I could find. This has raised objections ([1] [2]) from editors Pelagius1 (talk · contribs) and Brandonk2009 (talk · contribs). I invite them here to discuss the issue, as they don't seem to have participated the previous discussions. Hopefully, we can come to an understanding. In the meantime, I'd ask that everybody refrain from reverting one way or another.

Pelagius1, Brandonk2009, welcome. The burden of argument is on you to show how Mr. Valliant's book meets Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources. Thanks, Skomorokh 20:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the approach taken here before the arrival of Pelagius1 and Brandonk2009 is wrong. We don't question a source and purge it, we challenge content and see if it can be verified. That is where the burden of proof arises - with the citation provided to verify the content, the burden is met. No doubt there are some questions surrounding Valliant's book, but I think a case needs to be made as to why the source is unreliable before the need to defend it arises. --Karbinski (talk) 21:26, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That being said, I believe the case, whatever its strength or veracity, is found in a number of discussions: 1, 2, 3 --Karbinski (talk) 21:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Followed by these rebuttals (whatever their strength or veracity): 1 and 2 --Karbinski (talk) 21:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can see using Valliant as a source for Rand's journals--I don't think his analysis is likely to be valid. If as Pelagius said the book caused fallout in the leadership of TOC (do you have some sources on that btw?) it might be appropriate to include in the articles on the Brandens. However it should not be used as a scholarly source, because frankly it isn't. TallNapoleon (talk) 21:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why it has to be a scholarly source. It's a notable and reliable source. At least as notable and reliable as any sources are required to be on Wikipedia. And I agree with Karbinski that the burden of proof is on someone wishing to label a published book as a non-reliable source. -Lisa (talk) 21:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to be a self-published source written by someone who is not a philosopher of any kind but a District Attorney (!) and an extreme partisan for Rand. There is little third-party information about it or its validity, and there's simply no evidence that the source, as a whole, should be considered reliable. TallNapoleon (talk) 22:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And the books by Nathaniel and Barbara Brandon are their own personal opinions as well. I'm okay removing Valliant's publication of Rand's journals provided that we also remove everything that's based on either The Passion of Ayn Rand or Judgement Day. For example, consider this:

Following Rand's expulsion of him from her circle, Branden accused Rand and her followers of "destructive moralism," something he reports having engaged in himself when he was associated with Rand, but which he now claims "subtly encourages repression, self-alienation, and guilt."<ref name=branden/>

This is a personal statement by Branden, and not in any way a scholarly one. I fail to see why this should be included in the article, and the following not included:

Since the publication of Rand's private journal entries regarding Branden, it has been shown that Rand herself had been warning Branden against such "moralism," "repression," "self-alienation" and "guilt," in very similar language to that now used by Branden.

Yet the former isn't being questioned, while the latter is. That smacks of a double standard and POV. I can see including both and I can see excluding both. Neither one really pertains to Objectivism at all, and probably should not be included here. They more properly belong in the article on Ayn Rand herself. -Lisa (talk) 22:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a question of WP:ILIKEIT or WP:IDONTLIKEIT. It's a question of reliability as Wikipedia defines it. Simply asserting that the book is notable does not meet the notability requirements of WP:BK anymore than asserting its reliability meets the reliability requirements of WP:RS. Personally, I just want the verifiable evidence that the book can be used to support Valliant's opinion (briefly stated) for an article. Until now, we've had the opposite extreme: a single IP placing Valliant's book everywhere in every context for every Objectivist-related article. That's very suspicious in itself and invited investigation. But that aside, the real issues are reliability (first and foremost) and then notability (a secondary issue for the Objectivist movement itself). And, incidentally, I disagree with Lisa. If challenged, the burden of proof falls on those who assert that the book is reliable and notable, not those who question notability and reliability. J Readings (talk) 22:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First, biographical work doesn't require a PhD in Philosophy. Second, notability of sources isn't relevant - the most notable print media are tabloids. Third, if you make a contributing edit or restore content, provide a source that obstensibly verifies the contribution/restoration, you face no burden of proof for reliability of your source if I drop by the talk page and say: sorry your source fails WP:RS. I would have to substantiate any such claim. That being said, I've noted above there is a case made against the source and now a case in its defense. --Karbinski (talk) 22:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First, Valliant's book is not a biographical work. I think you and I will agree on that point, so there is no point bringing up biographers and history PhDs. Valliant is not a biographer; he's a self-described "Objectivist" lawyer who wrote the book to support the movement as noted on the bookjacket. Second, regarding notability -- as I thought I made clear already (if not I apologize) -- that discussion related to creation of a Valliant page and the (now meshed in) discussion of Valliant as being "notable" (and therefore included as others argued above). I've read no evidence that Valliant meets the notability requirements for having his own page and none was every provided when asked. Third, perhaps most important because I agree we are talking about reliability right now, trying to prove a negative is a logical fallacy. If a source is questioned, the standard procedure is to provide verifiable evidence from reliable sources demonstrating its reliability as outlined in WP:RS. If Valliant's book is reliable as Wikipedia defines it, it should be easy to provide the citations. So far, I haven't read anything that matches those criteria. J Readings (talk) 22:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked it up on Amazon, I'm going with biographical. If I use my personal web page as a source, no logical fallacy in making the case its not reliable. If I use a highly reputable, peer-reviewed science journal to source a science fact, no logical fallacy in making the case it is reliable. So, my point stands, if no case is made that a source is unreliable, then no case need be made to defend its reliability - even if challenged (an unsubstantiated challenge). Again, I'm not saying this challenge is unsubstantiated, only that those making the challenge are not free from any burden of evidence whatsoever and those defending it are not the only ones that need to make a case. In other words, there is no concensus here as of yet, and that the points of contention should be what is being discussed. --Karbinski (talk) 01:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflict)Okay, let's start with your first discussion point. (We can discuss the others later if you are interested). Why do you think Valliant's book is biographical? To be sure, unlike Barbara Branden's autobiography, Sciabarra on his blog certainly didn't think Valliant's book was biographical. Sciabarra wrote: "To be clear: Valliant didn't write a biography of Rand or an intellectual history of Objectivism. He wrote a prosecutorial indictment that frequently exhibits a scorched-earth style, which tends to undermine any truly reasonable points he has raised about bias, contradictions, conflicting points of view, corroborating evidence, or insufficient sourcing in the works of the Brandens."[3] Having not been able to find any independent third-party sources reviewing Valliant's book on JSTOR, LexisNexis, Factiva, etc. I'm forced to rely on what Sciabarra says (unfortunately published on his blog and not very flattering concluding comments at that). J Readings (talk) 02:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The book-jacket addresses itself to both "students" and "supporters," btw. Also, it is not agreement with any sources which seems to be the guideline standard, if I am reading it correctly. For example, Dr. Sciabarra is a notable scholar worthy of inclusion, but his thesis about Rand's work does not command even a plurality of support from scholars in the field who almost universally disagree with the idea of the "dialectical" Rand. Despite the widespread disagreement with Sciabarra's thesis among scholars, he is a "reliable source."

The very attention he has given Valliant's work is noteworthy precisely because Sciabarra is from the opposite camp within this movement. His review was hardly "dismissive" in that sense. Further, his invitation to Valliant to participate in 'Journal of Ayn Rand Studies' discussion of his book did not take place for substantive reasons relating to the book (the invitation appears to remain open), but, apparently, to internal "movement" political reasons. However, the very invitation from what would be considered a hostile source to him sufficiently indicates the seriousness of its treatment by scholars.

Moreover, the arguments made in the book have had an impact on scholars (as the links in the Movement article show.) By itself, this impact makes those arguments an important reference. Pelagius1 (talk) 02:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to be repetitive, but if there's no third party attestation to the veracity of Valliant's work, neither is there any for the works of the Brandens. There's nothing about the Brandens' works on Rand and Objectivism that is superior by Wikipedia definition to Valliant's. -Lisa (talk) 02:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there were several reviews of Barabara Branden's book in reliable mainstream third-party sources and even a made-for-television movie. Again, I would have to ask where the equivalents are for the case of James Valliant's book.J Readings (talk) 02:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reviews don't make the claims of the Brandens notable. Not even if they're in "reliable mainstream third-party sources". Here is a review of Valliant's book. Okay? The issue is that for many years, the Brandens' account was taken as uncontested truth, because there was no rebuttal out there. Because Rand was dead. Their claims took on a kind of "assumed truth" (I assumed it to be true as well, btw). In that context, Valliant's publication of what Rand had to say on the subject is nothing but balance. Unless you're claiming that he invented the journal entries, there's no rational cause for making his book taboo. Are you claiming that? -Lisa (talk) 02:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa: Reviews don't make the claims of the Brandens notable. Please read WP:BK. You have to stop using the word "notable" because it doesn't support your case as far as the guidelines are concerned. I think you actually mean "reliable", right? In any case, Lewrockwell.com has already been tagged for its own notability issues as a web site with little to support the writing of its own page. But that aside, again I agree, the real issue is WP:RS. Is Durban Press a vanity publication? In contrast: Anchor Books, Barbara Branden's publisher, appears to be a subsidiary of the highly respected Random House Publishers. J Readings (talk) 03:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I should point out that Barbara and Nathaniel Branden are both still alive, while Ayn Rand is deceased. Consequently, WP:BLP concerns about potentially self-published sources involving third-parties definitely apply in the case of the Brandens. Specifically: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link. Is Durban Publishing a vanity press? Some people seem to think so. Consequently, a conservative approach based on WP:CONSENSUS was reached to remove Valliant's book everywhere. J Readings (talk) 03:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here and here for strongly positive views of Valliant's book, and here for some impact. Pelagius1 (talk) 03:08, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In all seriousness, are these websites "independent third-party reliable sources" as Wikipedia defines them in WP:RS or are they blogs and self-published partisan websites dedicated to specific subjects for the blogosphere? I'm asking. J Readings (talk) 03:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In all seriousness, there do not appear to be "independent" or neutral sources in the sense you seem to be requiring here. 'The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies' is a hostile source per the ARI scholars who will not participate in publishing there. That's why the JARS invite (still open) to one from the opposing camp -- Valliant -- is itself significant. Valliant did get a very positive Kirkus Review - as the jacket and Kirkus site indicate - and this is as "neutral", independent and 3rd Party as it comes. The "independence" of the positive reviews of Brandens themselves is less clear. Pelagius1 (talk) 03:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent)The fact that it has been made into an award-winning film inherently makes The Passion of Ayn Rand notable. Furthermore the close affiliation of the Brandens with Rand for many years adds to its credibility. On the other hand no one seems to know anything about Valliant. His work is published by what appears to be a vanity press, few independent reviews exist, and what there are (e.g., Sciabarra) are not favorable. I simply don't see how this work meets reliability standards. Surely there have to be better sources available than this? TallNapoleon (talk) 04:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no indication of the publisher's "vanity" status. Indeed, this publisher seems to avidly "believe" in the book, according to the jacket. Valliant created an award-winning television program, 'Ideas n Action', still being sold, that included an in-depth interview with philosopher and Rand-heir Leonard Peikoff, who knew Rand even longer than Ms. Branden did. Valliant's academic credentials are superior to either Branden. Moreover, as the links show, even some of Ms. Branden's staunchest defenders are sharply critical of the movie version, for what it's worth. Valliant was given access by Peikoff to previously unpublished original Rand materials, and Valliant is cited in the book 'Ayn Rand' by Jeff Britting the official Archivist at the Ayn Rand Institute. If you read the introduction, Valliant also interviewed Nathaniel Branden and introduced one of his lectures. According to the previous Wikipedia article on Valliant, he also practiced law before the California Supreme Court and got murder convictions, professional accomplishments of a kind not found with the Brandens. Pelagius1 (talk) 05:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sciabarra from his "rejoinder" to Valliant's "reply": "Valliant asks if, in the light of having read his book, I now appreciate the extent of the distortion that I 'now appear to concede exists in those [Branden] books.' I state explicitly in the review that the Brandens' books are not the 'last word' on Rand biography. I have ~always~ believed that the Brandens' books were written from a particular point of view. And I certainly agree with Valliant's points that corroboration is important on some issues, especially where personal bias may have influenced the exposition. But, as I have written, in many instances, Valliant's good insights on the issue of corroboration are undermined by his own methodology." This was hardly scathing, but a criticism of his polemical style and a disagreement with conclusions. Nor can Sciabarra be considered "independent." His friendship with and gratitude to the Brandens -- the very subjects of Valliant's critique -- is discussed in the dialogue between Valliant and Sciabarra. Pelagius1 (talk) 05:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quick and to the point: type the name "Barbara Branden" into LexisNexis (among many other reliable databases) and one gets many reviews and discussions of Barbara and Nathaniel Branden specifically in such independent and reliable third party sources as The Washington Post, The New York Times and The San Diego Union-Tribune (to name a few). Repeat the process for "James Valliant" and one gets......nothing. Why is that? J Readings (talk) 05:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That has a pretty obvious answer: B. Branden's book was a full biography of Ayn Rand. The first biography of Rand. It revealed Rand's affair with N. Branden for the first time, as well. Valliant's book is a book about other books, very much inside baseball, as it were. The linked-Sciabarra dialogue also indicates that Valliant was a long-time student of Rand-intimate Peikoff. Pelagius1 (talk) 05:57, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(another outdent)Pelagius, earlier you mentioned Jeff Walker's book--do you happen to know if that's cited on Wikipedia? We may want to scrutinize that for possible removal as well. TallNapoleon (talk) 06:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Objectivism Movement article has a whole subsection titled Walker. It's 3.2 there. I'd favor omitting that work altogether. Notice the critical reaction there. Valliant, un like Walker, has never been dubbed "merely annoying." Pelagius1 (talk) 06:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I must add that praise for Valliant's book per the jacket includes that of author Robert W. Middlemiss, who is not an Objectivist or Rand supporter, fan or friend of any kind. Pelagius1 (talk) 06:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, it's getting late here but I'll take a look at the Walker stuff soon. If one of our contributors with access to LexisNexis could take a look at it that would also be fantastic. TallNapoleon (talk) 06:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Subtle nudge in my direction, no doubt. (^_^) I quickly checked LexisNexis. Walker's book gets some attention in two separate articles in The Philadelphia Inquirer (e.g., "THE ENDURING APPEAL AND CONTROVERSY OF AYN RAND", May 23, 1999) and another article in The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. I haven't had the time to check JSTOR, Factiva or other recommended databases for research of reliable third-party sources. For the moment, even that small amount of attention appears more than what James Valliant got from our beloved fourth estate. J Readings (talk) 07:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Walker did not get ~ positive ~ attention from a source like Kirkus, as Valliant did. And Walker spread sensational if dubious material -- e.g., Branden 's potential involvement in his second wife's death. That will get headlines, but not a serious plug from Kirkus. Nor has Walker had the impact on numerous intellectuals in the field, as Valliant has, causing former ARI critics to pubicly leave the rival institute. Even the Branden books themselves did not achieve such a shift. Nor did Walker get the respectful and serious attention from the "opposing camp" that Valliant got from Sciabarra. Pelagius1 (talk) 07:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, according to Amazon.com, Jeff Walker's book apparently received several book reviews beyond the articles that LexisNexis didn't catch, but other databases did (and having read the Kirkus Review for Walker's book on Amazon.com, I'm wondering if you and I are reading the same review?) In contrast, Valliant's Amazon.com page provides one self-serving comment from the questionable publisher Durban House, no posted reviews from Kirkus (where did you find that?), and a small throw-away comment from the Autonomist (I take it this is a blog that dislikes Wikipedia or something? See here.) Interesting. J Readings (talk) 07:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that JSV cites a Robert Middlemiss as having being an independent voice in regard to the James Valliant book 'The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics.' This is not so, as seen in the blurb from the back of the Valliant Book: "For the serious students and supporters of Ayn Rand . . . this is a vital work. It is nothing short of a reference tool to be studied, perhaps a Bible... and most certainly a loadstone of inspiration and guidance to them as they look at their lives and try to live them well." -Robert W. Middlemiss, Editor-in-Chief, Durban House Books. Yes, Durban House is the publisher of the book in question.

I also note the Wikipedia suggestions on conflict of interest (COI). If it is unseemly and mostly wrong for the author of a book to promote said book by inserting mentions of his book in as many places as he can, then what do we say to the saga of [Topic-banned user] -- who has been banned till November? I mention this because it has been demonstrated that Banned user 72.199.110.160 shares the same IP address as the author of the book, and was thus responsible for the vast majority of the mentions of the book that have been deleted.

'Further, what would it mean if we discovered that one of the participants in this thread is actually the author of the book?' It can be demonstrated that Banned user 72.199.110.160 is the leading contributor to this thread . . . Wsscherk (talk) 08:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, nothing of the sort has been demonstrated. There was a vague allegation on Wikipedia Review that 160 was Valliant. I've never seen any evidence that he is, except for a generic whois that shows 160 being around San Diego (where Valliant is). Considering SD is a city of hundreds of thousands of souls, and ten times as many people, that is not particularly significant. I have seen precisely zero evidence that Pelagius is 160, and still less that he is James Valliant. I have only seen your allegations, presented without any evidence whatsoever. Please, if you have evidence, show us--and take it to WP:ANI. Otherwise, you are engaging in personal attacks and biting a newcomer. TallNapoleon (talk) 09:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How do I know this? I have put together several lines of evidence:

Emails from James Valliant to me with the identical IP address to IP 160
Email from Valliant (today) to me in which he states (I paraphrase) that he is not topic-banned, since he just added a reference to the Objectivism(Ayn Rand) article (David Kelley).
Reference to David Kelley book added to the page today, by Pelargius1.
Acknowledgement by Pelargius1 that he had already edited Objectivist-related pages as an unlogged-in editor on user:Skmorokh(talk).
The pattern of edits by IP 160 show many striking correspondences with Valliant, including repeated details added to his high school, extensive editing of pages such as university mentors and a deep level of familiarity with the book in question.
Substantial interaction with Valliant in online discussions, thus a familiarity with his style/syntax/phrasings.

(that IP 160 did never join in talk as opposed to Pelargius: IP 160 is topic banned until November. It is in IP 160/Pelargius/Valliant's interest to use whatever means are available to have his materials included in the Objectivism pages)

I am a relative newcomer to Byzantiwikium, so I don't know what checkusered means. I will look it up, and I will also check the procedures for WP:ANI; thanks for the information. I don't think I should post the email headers here, nor the details of the emails to me. I thank you for the advice. I stand by my findings.

Having said that, I ask the question again . . . what if? What if the same person is IP 160 and Valliant, and Pelargius1?

Bear in mind I don't support the idea that all the references to Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics should be deleted from the articles here. Nor do I think the James Valliant article should be deleted, necessarily. I do want James to come clean and try to salvage some useful information. Wsscherk (talk) 10:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've done an in-depth critique of The Passion of James Valliant's Criticism:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9421651/The-Passion-of-James-Valliants-Criticism

The book is not reliable as a critique of the Brandens' book, often misrepresenting them to the point of making them say the opposite of what they do in fact say. It does have the merit of printing Rand's diaries (although not all) concerning Branden. I am not aware of any print magazine or journal reviewing it, with the apparent exception of Kirkus.

-NEIL PARILLE

I do have a life, as someone said. This Talk Page is absolutely not an appropriate venue for the Branden(s)/Valliant debate. I'd ask all editors who wish to discuss that to take it elsewhere (for example). The topic here is WP policy. There is compelling, if not conclusive, evidence that the Valliant book counts as self-published and is therefore not a reliable source and should "never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer" ([4] see WP:SPS). Given that the author has no standing as a researcher and writer, and the comments of qualified experts (Sciabarra: ""To be clear: Valliant didn't write a biography of Rand or an intellectual history of Objectivism. He wrote a prosecutorial indictment..."), the consensus was to remove the references. Newcomers to this discussion really need to reflect on WP policy on verifiability - the truth of Valliant's account is irrelevant to this discussion. I can pay to have a book published, and what the book says may be true - that would not make it a reliable source.KD Tries Again (talk) 13:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

When Valliant was first discussed, I looked into the nature of Dublin House, and there evidence that it functions both independantly and as a subsidy-press. Any claims that its self-published should address the nature of the publisher. --Karbinski (talk) 13:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As you probably know, I published a number of links to independent (i.e. nothing to do with Rand or Valliant) claims that it is a vanity press. At the end of the day, short of seeing Valliant's contract with Durban (not Dublin) House, we won't know the truth here. But given BLP policy on reliable sources, together with the absence of any evidence that it's a scholarly source, I think we need to be cautious.KD Tries Again (talk) 13:53, 20 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

I absolutely agree that the veracity of Valliant's material is not a proper subject for discussion here. The key question is whether the book qualifies as a reliable source based on Wikipedia standards. If Durban House published in on a regular commercial basis, then presumably it does. If Valliant paid them to publish it, then presumably it does not qualify as a reliable secondary source. (I think a good argument could be made that the passages from Rand's journal qualify as a primary source regardless. However, it would be hard to find any use of those that would not constitute original research.) If, as some have suggested, Pelagius1 is James Valliant, I think he should address this question clearly and openly. If Pelagius1 is not Valliant, then perhaps someone should contact Valliant and see if he will answer. The concern here is not a disparagement of his book or his arguments, but rather a matter of the specific standards that Wikipedia has for source material. (And by the way, there are a number of other offenses against the source guidelines in the Objectivism articles that also need to be addressed.) --RL0919 (talk) 14:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm certainly not Valliant, and I think the references should stay. The book is notable simply by virtue of being the first published instance of Rand's journals. I don't care if it was published normally or vanity published or inscribed on the back of an envelope. As to its reliability, I think it's beyond debate that the Ayn Rand Institute, which very zealously protects Rand and anything having to do with her literary legacy, would have had a hissy fit about the book if those hadn't actually been Rand's journal entries. And that's true despite the fact that the book defends Rand.

I recognize that this isn't a courtroom, but if the Brandens' testimony about Rand's state of mind is admissible, I honestly don't get why Rand's testimony about the Brandens' state of mind isn't. The fact that a movie was made of Barbara Branden's book means that the book and movie are notable, fine. But their claims about Rand are just that. Claims. Personal claims from people who acknowledge themselves that they had a major split with her. How are such claims reliable? And if they are, how are the things Rand has to say about the same situation any less reliable?

I've asked before and I'll ask again. Does anyone here question the fact that those are Rand's journal entries? Is anyone suggesting that Valliant forged them? If so, I'd like to see those claims made explicit, and I'd like to see some evidence, or at the very least some argumentation, in support of such claims. If not, then the journals are every bit as reliable and relevant to any discussion of the Brandens' personal claims about Rand and her movement as what the Brandens themselves wrote. And that'd be true even if we were talking about blog entries or Facebook postings.

I strongly suspect that the motivation of at least some of the people who want to remove this content from Wikipedia stems from a personal dislike of Objectivism. This whole thing smacks of a book burning, and it's the last thing I ever expected to see on Wikipedia. -Lisa (talk) 14:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As has been stated before in these discussions, notability is not an issue for using a book as a source. (Notability is important if there is to be a freestanding Wikipedia article about the book, but that isn't what we are discussing right now.) Many books are obscure and known only to a few specialists, but are still completely appropriate for use as sources. So please, let's not go on any further about notability.

I agree that Rand's journal entries should be acceptable as a source, although I doubt much use could be made of them in most articles without raising issues of original research. But if there are cases where the journal entries are an appropriate source, I have no problem with the passages in Valliant's book being cited as primary source material from Rand.

That said, the vast majority of citations I have seen from Valliant's book have not been to the journal passages. They have been to Valliant's own material, using it as a secondary source for information about Rand's life or the claims made about her by third parties. For this use, the status of the book as a reliable secondary source is important. Self-published books are not typically considered reliable secondary sources because there is no significant editorial review of the content. I could self-publish a book saying that Ayn Rand had devil horns on her forehead. So if Durban House acted as a vanity press for Valliant, publishing his manuscript simply because he paid them to do so, then the book should not be cited as a secondary source (unless a relevant exception applies as described in the Wikipedia policy). On the other hand, if Durban House treated this as a commercial product, where an editor reviews the book and makes an independent decision that it ought to be published, then by default we would assume it is as reliable as any other commercially published book (for example, The Ayn Rand Cult or The Passion of Ayn Rand). This is why evidence regarding the nature of Durban House's publishing operation and any specifics that can been gathered about the publishing history of Valliant's book are so important. --RL0919 (talk) 15:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As far as the diaries transcribed in Valliant's book, no one disputes that Rand made diaries. I am not aware, however, that anyone has been able to check Valliant's transcriptions with the originals. That Valliant often makes his sources say the opposite of what they say means that skepticism is in order about the care Valliant took. (This is in addition to the fact that concerns have often been raised over the years about the accuracy of material released by the ARI archives.) --Neil Parille (talk) 15:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd ask editors again to bear in mind that the truth of the book and the accuracy of the journal transcriptions is irrelevant to this discussion. That's a topic for an objectivism website, perhaps? Lisa:please remember to assume good faith. Unreliable, and especially self-published sources, have been removed from Rand articles regardless of whether they are pro- or anti- (see here. As you were told above, this is not a discussion about notability. It is about reliable sources. Please take a look at the policies.KD Tries Again (talk) 14:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

And I'd say that there are some pretty motivated Valliant and Rand haters out there. There is no nice way to say this: Mr. Parille is not an honest person, in my view. Mr. Scherk here seems to have discovered Wikipedia edit-button just to "support" Mr. Valliant here. But Mr. Valliant is asleep right now. I do live in the same house with him, but he'd rather I not do this at all. He is one my expert advisers and sometimes uses this account too. But never about himself. Wikipedia -- if you check the changes -- is the much better for it. I avidly and shamelessly promote him. As to the current controversy, he is investigating other means of redress. And you can't have it both ways: the claim was only that Middlemiss is not an Objectivist of any kind, which is true. And that his passionate support-comments undermine the claim of "self-publishing" which is also true. The comments from such a author who is NOT an Objectivist is meaningful. Straw men are not helpful here. Also, Kirkus described Walker's book, and concluded: "Walker's expo is a bit too shrill, repetitive, and even snide to rise persuasively above the people he describes but he does convey vividly the frightful mess that was Ayn Rand." However, it described Valliant as "skillful" and said that the book "deserves" a place on the growing shelf. No put down at all. So, I wonder if we did read the same reviews, as well. For myself, I hope Wikipedia doesn't lose Valliant's help from all of this. Pelagius1 (talk) 16:08, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you are a new user - or at least, this is a new account - but please note that uncivil remarks about other editors have no place here. See here. This is a discussion about reliable sources. I would suggest to other editors that if the discussion is sidetracked by participants in objectivist websites to continue long-standing disagreements which have nothing to do with WP policy, we just take this to the reliable sources notice-board. Otherwise we could be in for a long, bumpy ride here.KD Tries Again (talk) 16:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

I tried to say my honest opinion in as civil a manner as possible, but I apologize to Wikipedia for any breach of etiquette. It is worth observing that all the "unlogged in edits" from this household, even from another computer, have now been ascribed to Pelagius!. Pelagius1 (talk) 16:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pelagius1, if you live with Valliant, then perhaps you can help bring this discussion to a quicker resolution by passing on a request to him. For me at least, the key question is whether the book is self-published. If Valliant is willing to state, openly and under his own name, that an editor from Durban House reviewed his manuscript and made an editorial decision to commercially publish the book (meaning that Durban House put its own money into the publishing rather than asking Valliant to pay for it), then personally I would be willing to take his word for it. If he does not wish to post to Wikipedia, then he could do so on some other public forum (such as Solo Passion, where I know he does post). If the book was vanity-published, then it would be nice if he would say that instead. One way or another, that would largely settle the question of whether the book should be cited on Wikipedia as a secondary source, in my mind at least. --RL0919 (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He has already publicly posted about this empty allegation, but I don't have the link handy. I was the agent for the book, so I happen to know, personally, that he got a standard (non-vanity) contract for the book. He paid nothing. This liberal (yes, liberal) house sincerely believed in the book. Pelagius1 (talk) 17:08, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Personal details about Valliant removed from the preceding comment by RL0919. It was not my intention to solicit that type of information. --RL0919 (talk) 19:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure whether to revert the above, per WP policy on outing - another editor might choose to do so. In any case, I think you should not post further information about 72.199.110.160/Mr Valliant without his permission.KD Tries Again (talk) 17:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

It was Mr. Scherk who tried to do the "outing." Again, my apology for any breach of rules. Pelagius1 (talk) 17:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but you have gone well beyond that in posting personal and presumably private information, and if you continue I will escalate this to the Administrators Noticeboard for action. You really should stop.KD Tries Again (talk) 17:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

I wish Mr. Valliant well, but agree with KD Tries Again and think that no further personal information, about anyone, should be posted - nor should anyone be agitated into posting such information. Lets own up to our wiki-expertise and keep things organized.

This place here: discuss the reliability of Valliant's work as a reliable source (or not)
Sock puppet notice board: discuss any and all concerns of sock-puppetry
ANI (sp?) place: chat room for all things IP 160 above and beyond the sock puppet notice board

Lets remember there is also a notice board for discussing the reliability of sources. To be clear about the posting of personal info - KD is absolutely right, lets see no more of that. --Karbinski (talk) 17:46, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely did not wish to solicit any private information about Valliant. Since my request seems to have inspired the release of it, I have taken it upon myself to delete it as noted above. However, if Valliant has previously addressed the question of whether the book was vanity published in some public forum, then that link would still be helpful whenever it can be obtained. The publishing history of the book is what is relevant to whether that book meets the basic criteria for use in Wikipedia source citations. My take is that if it was commercially published, then it has as much claim to reliability as some of the other books about Rand, and can be used for citations when appropriate. (Looking back at the old citations, I think there were a few cases where it was cited when it was not appropriate, but those can be handled on a case-by-case basis.) --RL0919 (talk) 19:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It sure seemed that questions were being raised about the propriety of the edits here. Since all edits from this household have been swept into Pelagius!'s history, I must add that there was no effort or intent at "sock-puppetry." As for Valliant on Durban House, I got him up for this, so look here. It was easier than finding the old cite, lost as it is deep in the dense internet discussion of his book -- much denser than anything Walker inspired, btw. It was very much "commercially published," I can assure you.Pelagius1 (talk) 19:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary Section Break

This situation is starting to grow tedious for several reasons. First, Pelagius1 initiated this discussion. It's certainly welcome, but also circular. I think it's fairly obvious that (for the moment) James Valliant is not a notable figure within the Objectivist movement as Wikipedia defines notability. Therefore, for the moment, there is no need to reinstate a page on him (per WP:ACADEMIC or WP:N) nor a page on his book (per WP:BK) nor list him as a notable figure.

As for the issue of "reliability" as a source in separate articles (which I agree is a separate matter), WP:RS makes it clear that academic books from academic publishers take precedence over other forms of reliably sourced material such as articles published in mainstream newspapers. Durban House is not an academic publisher or university press. So that does not put it at the top of the list for reliable sources. In addition, no verifiable evidence has been produced that independent and reliable third-party sources have written about, cited, or even mentioned James S. Valliant in the mainstream press. To his credit, Pelagius1 acknowledges the point. This is not a good sign either if the purpose is to cite ideas or arguments Valliant had. Thus, one is forced to cite the book directly, with the understanding that it is a polemical work written by a self-described "Objectivist" for "students" and "supporters" of Ayn Rand. Consequently, one would need to attribute in-line citations to him and be careful the source cited can (and are) reliable for the claims made. Pretty straightforward, one would think.

But then the problems start to pop up. First, what is the status of Durban House? Its relationship to its authors and as a publisher is dubious at best raising concerns about reliability in the discussion of LIVING THIRD PARTIES (per WP:BLP). Now, after much lengthy discussion, Pelagius1 tells us that he is James Valliant's "book agent", that he lives with James Valliant (so they might have the same IP address), that he "avidly and shamelessly promotes" Valliant's work (all taken on faith, of course). I'm not sure what to say other than there is strong potential for a conflict of interest now. J Readings (talk) 19:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He or she. It is a mess, especially as

(1) evidence has been posted elsewhere on the internet by newcomers to this debate which purports to confirm the connection between IP 160 and Mr Valliant;

(2) this seems to be casually confirmed by Pelagius above, in attributing articles written by IP 160 to Mr Valliant; and

(3) Mr Valliant has been discussing content of these Talk Pages on his website rather than seeking consensus here.

The confusion of identities, the apparent multiple use of accounts, and the multiplicity of motives underlying today's discussions, makes me increasingly cautious about accepting anything we are being told.KD Tries Again (talk) 20:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

If this book is to be censored, then so should the equally non-academic books of N. Branden and B. Branden, by the same standard, along with all of their opinions. Conflict of interest? With the demise of Durban House, and no substitute agreement to publish the book yet, there can be no "sales" effort or promotional effort being made here, as the entries themselves should also make clear. My own motivation in editing here has resulted from the recent surge in interest in Rand's work -- look at the dates. Had I sought to promote sales of any book, it would have happened way back in 2005 or 2006, when the book was being sold and the publisher was still in business, don't you think? He can't make dime right now on it. The Rand-related entries at Wikipedia were very poor quality, stated factual errors, and, in addition, failed to cite important new sources like Valliant's book. You will notice that I have added many, many other sources, as well. The citations for Rand-related articles have been radically improved with numerous sources, thanks to me. I have endeavored to be open and honest here, as I hope should be plain. This continued assault on personal motives is troubling. Mr. Valliant, as I have said, does not want me here. What am I to do?? Allow Wikipedia to revert to the ~ factual ~ mess I found it in? Pelagius1 (talk) 20:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pelagius1, we all realize that you're new to Wikipedia so please understand that we're trying our best to understand. If it's true that Durban House went out of business already, that would partially explain why I've never heard of this publisher and couldn't find any reliable information about them. With respect, it just adds to the dubious nature of the publisher. J Readings (talk) 20:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The business success or failure of the publisher does not seem relevant to reliability. The original argument about the publisher was that it was a vanity or subsidy press, which is very much an issue under the reliable sources policy. I read the linked post that Pelagisu1 provided. It is from Valliant and unambiguously states that he did not pay any money to have the book published. In the circumstances I don't think we are going to be able to get any better evidence on that aspect. You can take Valliant's word for it or not.

Assuming that the book was commercially published, then to me that eliminates the main argument for the blanket avoidance of it as a source. As much as I would love to have peer-reviewed academic sources for everything, I don't think that will provide adequate sourcing for articles about Ayn Rand and the Objectivist movement. Currently other commercially published (rather than academic) materials are accepted as sources in articles about Rand and the Objectivist movement. For example, works such as B. Branden's The Passion of Ayn Rand, N. Branden's My Years with Ayn Rand, Britting's Ayn Rand, and Peikoff's Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand were commercially published and are cited in articles. I would say this establishes a prima facie case for Valliant's book being acceptable as a source on those subjects. That does not mean it should be used without any caution or when better attested sources are available, but it does mitigate against the blanket removal of all citations of it.

I believe all of the above holds true regardless of the motives of Pelagius1 or the relationship between that user and Valliant. If there is concern over conflict of interest or sock puppetry, I think it should be separated from the question of the reliability of the book as a source. (And just to avoid any confusion, let me state that I also do not intend any of this as an argument in favor of sufficient notability to warrant separate articles on Valliant and/or the book.) Assuming the book meets the basic criteria for reliability, then it would be appropriate for third-party editors to cite it as appropriate. And that's all I'm concerned with at the moment. --RL0919 (talk) 20:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Relying on a self-published blog posting by the author claiming that his book was the product of rigorous editorial review (assuming it was even James Valliant) falls under the category of self-serving in the WP:SPS guidelines. It's not persuasive. The fact the publisher already went out of business (assuming that's even true) would not lend to its reliability as a well-respected source of information. Why? Because if the publisher were worth anything, it would survive or be bought by another publishing house. The fact that I cannot find a single article about or partially concerning Durban House in the reliable third-party press only adds to the dubious nature of the publisher. J Readings (talk) 20:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, unlike Durban House, as I mentioned earlier, the Random House subsidiary appears to be a well-respected mainstream commercial publisher of non-fiction. So I think we would be comparing apples to oranges in the case of the other books (though I haven't looked at all of the publishers.) True, it's not as good as a university press for our purposes, but it's better than a fly-by-night publisher or (worse) a self-publication by heretofore minor authors receiving no attention from the mainstream media. J Readings (talk) 20:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The rules around use of self-published material relate to using it in articles, not for editors making judgments in talk-page discussions. If the verifiability guidelines were applied to talk pages, we wouldn't be able to make judgments based on our own posted discussion, which is absurd. Valliant is an attorney and presumably has some degree of reputation to maintain. So given that he has posted in a public forum with his name (and picture) attached to the explicit claim that he did not pay to have his book published, I am willing to take him at his word. (Note that the claims that Durban House sometimes acted as a vanity press were similarly based on discussion group postings.) Recursive efforts to try to verify the publisher's reliability or notability seem to go beyond any standard that could be consistently applied across Wikipedia. A book may have been published by a press that went out of business decades ago and cannot be traced in any readily available source today, but still be accepted as a source. For that matter, other books published by Durban House are used as sources in unrelated Wikipedia articles. Given that Valliant's book is non-academic and obviously partisan, it should not be at the top of anybody's source list, but I do not see grounds to rule out all use of it as a source. And I say this as someone who would be equally willing to rule the book out as a source if it were in fact self-published. --RL0919 (talk) 21:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we seem to be making some headway on the reliability discussion. Regarding Durban House, your comment led me to check out some of these other articles and -- once again -- the subject matter does not appear to be notable in the cases I read. I placed a few tags for the experts of those pages to demonstrate notability of the subjects before prodding the articles. In any case, I agree with you that Valliant's book is not an academic or scholarly work based on the publisher and the author. I agree it was not published by a well-respected university press known for their rigorous editorial review and peer-review system. I agree with you that Valliant is obviously partisan. We part company on what to do about this situation. The old WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS on Wikipedia argument doesn't help. It's quite possible the "other stuff" doesn't belong either if the publisher is of dubious value. J Readings (talk) 22:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the objective observer, wouldn't it also matter why they went under for that to be the case? Given this title's dramatic impact on the Objectivist Movement, the notability of this author and his work is, forgive me, objectively manifest. Unless the Objectivist Movement itself is no longer worthy of attention... I would add that works critical of Rand have been published by academics by non-academic publishers, e.g., Rothbard's "Sociology." This, for example, is something Valliant challenges from eyewitness testimony. This makes Valliant's report, for example, important to include, if Rothbard's critique is to be included. If Rothbard knew Rand, Valliant also knew Rothbard. The same could be said of the Brandens. Valliant was attempting to comply with the request here. Pelagius1 (talk) 20:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Except Rothbard was a person of some standing within libertarian circles, whereas Valliant, forgive me, is not. I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that Valliant qualifies in any way as a reliable source. As such he should not be included. BTW, Pelagius, I would strongly urge you to read WP:COI. TallNapoleon (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion space is for the reliability of Valliant's book. Let me take a crack at listing what we have:

1 Durban House
- 1a founded by writers who subsequently published their own manifests
- 1b having enjoyed some commercial success, acted both as a independant-press (commercially publishing books) and as a subsidy-press
- 1c is not an academic or university press
- 1d is still in business, seemingly - check out one of the books on Amazon
- 1e The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics was published commercially by Durban House
2 Quality
- 2a draws upon Ayn Rand's journals
- 2b had an impact upon the Objectivist movement
- 2c pulls no punches as to its bias (the title is enough, I don't think I have to read it to verify this)

Lets add to this list and contest points in reference to this list - if I may be so bold --Karbinski (talk) 21:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, sorry to ask the obvious, but how do we know exactly that it had any real impact on the Objectivist movement as Wikipedia defines it? Does Tara Smith cite James Valliant? Are biographers citing the thoughts of James Valliant's book in theirs? I checked Google Scholar and JSTOR. James Valliant and his book are not significantly cited at all. I found one hit on Google Scholar. JSTOR produces absolutely nothing. If we turn to social scientific indexes and academic indexes in the humanities (often used to determine impact on Wikipedia), we get nothing. So, once again, where is the verifiable evidence from objective third-parties? J Readings (talk) 21:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Impact on the movement seems to be more an issue of notability, which isn't really the concern as long as we are talking about using the book as a source (as opposed to the book having its own article). Whether Valliant's work is cited by other authors does go to the question of reliability, so I focused on that. I was able to find three citations of the book using Google Books:

In an essay in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, edited by Edward W. Younkins
In Champions of a Free Society, a book by Younkins
In Capitalism at Work, a book by Robert L. Bradley, Jr.

Younkins is an academic who has written about Rand on multiple occasions, and both his books were published by academic presses. I'm not familiar with Bradley, but his work appears to be from a commercial press. (Edit: Looks like Bradley's book is the Google Scholar hit mentioned by J Readings above, so perhaps I'm wrong about the publisher being a commercial press? If it's an academic press, I can't really tell that from their website.)

Note that no book-length biographies on Rand have been published since Valliant's book came out, so there is no pool from which to look for references in that context. Two are supposed to be coming out later this year. --RL0919 (talk) 22:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to post these. They're useful. The next step is to check what these authors say and who they are. Sometimes we get into the thorny issue of "false positives" -- similar words discussing a different subject. Or, conversely, since I agree we are talking about reliability, what these authors are saying about the subject. If it's fleeting or (worse) negative, reliability is not enhanced at all....again, Sciabarra comes to mind. J Readings (talk) 22:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Durban House does appear still to be issuing books. We honestly don't know what agreement the author had with the publisher; one hesitates over a self-serving blog post in normal circumstances, but with this blizzard of argument from someone purporting to be the author's housemate, and now claiming credit for "many" of the IP 160 edits, I am not inclined to believe anything today. I am not aware of any independent basis for 1a, b or e above. I'd add 2d - generally not noticed outside the Objectivist movement. We should probably add Sciabarra's conclusions too, as he seems to be about the only scholar who has reviewed it.KD Tries Again (talk) 21:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

Agreed. With out verifiable links or (at the very least) detailed citations, it's impossible to take on faith anything and everything that's being asserted. J Readings (talk) 21:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is the independant evidence that 1e is false? --Karbinski (talk) 22:38, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We never had any evidence that it's false, only evidence that Durban House works as a subsidy press. You've seen the links. For me, it's just one part of this general weirdness about the whole thing.KD Tries Again (talk) 01:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

I would remind folks that no one at this IP address lumped the history together, that was done against our will. I was upfront about previous posts at the time Pekagius1 logged in.

So, Rothbard cannot have an eyewitness against him -- on an issue of witnessed fact -- except another academic? That seems odd, indeed, and if the standards around here require this kind of censorship, they should be changed. Especially since there is no evidence for Rothbard's original claim. No, thanks, I'll take the respected public prosecutor's eyewitness testimony. Pelagius1 (talk) 23:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"...that was done against our will..." It's impossible to tell who "our" refers to here.KD Tries Again (talk) 01:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

To the extent that Valliant comments on things for which he is an "eyewitness," then he is acting as a primary source, not a secondary source. Then we're talking about a different set of criteria for evaluation. (Authors acting as primary sources in some portions of their writings and secondary sources in other portions is a common problem in material about Rand. Barbara Branden's The Passion of Ayn Rand is a secondary source for about half the book, and a primary source for the other half.) In any case, this really gets more into Rothbard's reliability than Valliant's. The reliability of Rothbard's pamphlet may well be worth discussing, but it shouldn't be conflated into this discussion. --RL0919 (talk) 04:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Younkins - He has come up before; I can't locate the discussion right now, but will tomorrow. There's an issue, in turn, with Younkins - he's an academic, but with qualifications in accountancy. Nevertheless, he's written and lectured extensively on Rand and philosophy and is active in some or other Objectivist circles. In other words, not the kind of disinterested citation we're searching for. Robert L. Bradley I had never heard of, but his WP article is in desperate need of a NPOV tag. KD Tries Again (talk) 01:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

If Sciabarra is used to qualify Valliant, then CMS's review in turn should be qualified by the fact that Sciabarra is a personal friend of the Brandens. Pelagius1 (talk) 01:38, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pelagius, this is about WP policy, not about who one chooses to believe or why. Sciabarra's qualifications as a scholar are solid.KD Tries Again (talk) 14:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

KD, I'm having trouble making sense of your comments about Younkins. If we start excluding scholars who "active in some or other Objectivist circles," then Sciabarra himself is also out, as is Tara Smith, Allan Gotthelf, etc. In other words, most scholars who would be likely to comment on a book in the narrow field of Ayn Rand biography. And those who have "written and lectured extensively on Rand and philosophy" are exactly the ones we should be seeking to help determine whether Valliant's book is considered reliable by experts in the subject. Both of the books mentioned were published by academic presses, and in one of them the citation is actually by a different scholar because Younkins was just the editor of an anthology. --RL0919 (talk) 04:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One should compare Valliant's book with the other collections of Rand's material. Rand's Letters and Journal were published by Penguin, as was the material from her question and answers. The recently released Objectively Speaking (a collection of interviews) was published by Lexington, which I believe is a division of a major publisher. A couple of collections (Rand's Marginalia and some newspapers colums) were published by the ARI's in-house press. Considering that there is a solid market for Rand related material, why did Valliant have to go to an obscure press to publish Rand's diaries? Someone may have mentioned this, but contrary to what Pelagius1 implies, Valliant wasn't cited in Britting's Ayn Rand. He was mentioned in the acknowledgement section along with a couple dozen other people. (Britting's book came out in 2004, before Valliant's.) For the record, I don't think that all references to PARC should be deleted, but it is a source that should be used with great caution. In fact, with the exception of the diaries, it isn't much of a source at all since Valliant did not consult any of the over 100 interviews taken by the ARI. --Neil Parille (talk) 10:08, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brian Doherty's 2007 Radicals for Capitalism contains an extensive discussion of Rand and her movement. This book briefly discusses PARC in an endnote on pages-- 678-79, saying that PARC arrived "late in the writing of this book . . . ."--Neil Parille (talk) 10:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Google Books

I already checked JSTOR: no hits, no articles. I checked Google Scholar: one hit, not sure if it's a false positive. I then checked Google Books at someone else's request. I typed in "James S. Valliant" and got the following [5] Four books, one of them being Valliant's book under discussion here, so it's not relevant for issues of reliability. The other three are: Ayn Rand by Jeff Britting where he is only listed in the acknowledgments; The Garden of Evil by Chris Holmes which is fiction (not relevant for reliability issues), and finally The Man Who Fed the World by Leon F. Hesser. In this book, Valliant is not cited but simply listed somewhere for something. It's unclear, and I don't know what he's being listed for. I'm not sure what name RL0919 typed (see above discussion) to get the three he mentioned, but they don't seem to be listed on Google Books. J Readings (talk) 00:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, just a further comment (apologies). He and I might be looking at different citations from a different database. That's possible. J Readings (talk) 00:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And you might want to widen the search parameters. Television interviews of Valliant about the book are no longer available online, but were at one time, e.g. Pelagius1 (talk) 01:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC) 21 May, 2009[reply]

I checked yesterday, actually. LexisNexis and Factiva would have picked up on the television transcripts if they were mainstream network reliable television broadcasters. If they were small-time local broadcasters, these databases would *usually* not carry them. For example, I have transcripts for MSNBC, CNBC, and CNN here (but not related to James Valliant). That said, there appear to be no verifiable (once again, that's important) evidence in the form of television transcripts. We all have to re-read WP:RS to see if television interviews count in this discussion (assuming any are even found). I doubt it. J Readings (talk) 01:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I searched for the title of the book, not Valliant's name. The reliability of the book is what is at issue, not Valliant's own notability. Also, in many citation formats his name would be inverted, or the middle initial might be omitted. Now that I've had time to research further, here are additional details on each citation:

Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged - The citation is specifically in an article by Robert L. Campbell, who is a professor of psychology at Clemson University. Valliant is cited in regard to Rand's attitudes towards Nathaniel Branden's mistress, and a passage from Rand's journals (as reproduced by Valliant) is quoted.
Champions of a Free Society - Younkins includes Valliant's book in a bibliographical listing. Unfortunately I do not have this book myself and pages are missing in the online preview, so I can't tell for sure whether Younkins actually cites Valliant beyond this listing. If Valliant is not otherwise cited and only appears in the bibliographical listing, then it says nothing about reliability, because the list Younkins provides appears to be relatively comprehensive and includes other books that definitely would not qualify as reliable sources for Wikipedia (e.g., Tom Porter's self-published fisking of Rand's book on epistemology).
Capitalism at Work - Bradley's book includes an appendix discussing "Ayn Rand's personal shortcomings," and Valliant's book is discussed in this context. Bradley does not agree with Valliant's evaluation of the Brandens, but seems to take him seriously as a reporter of Rand's views on her relationship with Nathaniel Branden.

In regard to the books by Holmes and Hesser, these books were also published by Durban House. I believe what you are finding in the search is promotional copy for other books from the publisher. That's common enough, but obviously irrelevant to confirming reliability. --RL0919 (talk) 03:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From WP:RS: An individual extremist or fringe source may be entirely excluded if there is no independent evidence that it is prominent enough for mention. Fringe and extremist sources must not be used to obscure or describe the mainstream view, nor used to indicate a fringe theory's level of acceptance. Hmmm.....J Readings (talk) 01:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I bought the book at Borders. Or possibly Barnes & Noble. Unlike Amazon.com, they don't tend to go in for vanity press offerings. You're basically using a rule that's meant to exclude crank theories, like fringe pseudo-science. This is a guy who wrote a book using journals written by Ayn Rand. In what conceivable universe can that possibly be considered "not prominent enough for mention"? -Lisa (talk) 03:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's where we have the guideline WP:FRINGE to help answer your question. J Readings (talk) 03:38, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think my concern was using Younkins to support a point on Kant, when his qualification is in accountancy. This is different, I agree. I couldn't find any reference to Valliant in "Champions" - I now see why. The sole reference I could find in the Atlas Shrugged guide is hardly a knockout: "Quoted in Valliant...with Valliant's comments removed" - in other words, he's actually quoting Rand, but I was relying on the Google preview. That's all I could find in the Bradley cite also. Not to reject these two references out of hand, but it's quite a reach to suggest they amount to an acknowledgement of Valliant's scholarship.KD Tries Again (talk) 14:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

The author of the article in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged is Robert Campbell. Having reviewed some of Campbell's highly negative comments about Valliant's book in assorted online forums, I think it is safe to say that he does not endorse it as reliable. Since he cites the book for Rand's journal material, I assume his attitude is similar to Sciabarra's. (Sciabarra heavily criticized the book, but said the Rand journal material was "worth the price of admission.") Bradley, on the other hand, is not just quoting Rand via Valliant. He does discuss Valliant's own arguments, and although he criticizes Valliant, he does seem to accept him as a factual source. However, Bradley is not a Rand specialist; his expertise seems to be around energy policy.

The most positive comment I could find from an acknowledged Rand scholar was an online commentary by Fred Seddon (author of Ayn Rand, Objectivists, and the History of Philosophy). Seddon said he liked the book and recommended it to others. But at the same time his post about the book was mostly about things he took exception to, so his praise is somewhat tempered. --RL0919 (talk) 18:32, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From the start I've been of the opinion the point of view for determining if a source is reliable or not depends on what its being called upon to verify. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, so this book can't be used to make exceptional claims. However, for a claim that is supported by Ayn Rand's personal journals via this book, it seems it is suitably reliable. I think a blanket prohibition is wrong - as is an unqualified acceptance of its reliability. Its never correct not to include page numbers when citing an entire book (yet it happens all the time around here), but I think it needs to be said anyway - using this book requires specificity in the citation. --Karbinski (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) How about a straw poll? Reliable / Unreliable / Use with caution --Karbinski (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Use with caution --Karbinski (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I am inclined to agree with you in principle about using it as a source for Rand's journals. It looks like other people use it that way, and I haven't come across any suggestions that the selections are unreliable or tendentiously edited. My only reservation - I don't know if in practice that means we have to balance anything taken from her journals with some contradictory comment from Branden - but I guess we can take it a case at a time. I can support this narrow use (what has many editors' hackles up is finding the book cited everywhere by an editor who is at the very least a fan). As for a straw poll, I'd prefer to go to the reliable sources notice board. This talk page has attracted a number of new editors who have long records of debating this book across other websites, but zero record with Wikipedia (welcome, and all that, but I'd rather get a WP community view).74.64.107.49 (talk) 21:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

On being a Fringe Theory

WP:FRINGE gives guidance on identifying them:

We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study.[3] Examples include conspiracy theories, ideas which purport to be scientific theories but have not gained scientific consensus, esoteric claims about medicine, novel re-interpretations of history and so forth. Some of the theories addressed here may in a stricter sense be hypotheses, conjectures, or speculations.

As per user Lisa, WP:FRINGE just doesn't apply here. We could say what should be self-evident: Ayn Rand's personal journals are a mainstream source of info on Ayn Rand. --Karbinski (talk) 15:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I take it that the one or two Valliant advocates are now prepared to argue that James Valliant's book, his "novel re-interpretation of history," his arguments, his ideas, the use of the Rand journals and their interpretation to match his arguments -- not to mention the reception it received (or lack thereof) -- are all very much part of the mainstream? Let me raise a question: what is the mainstream of thinking on the Objectivist history and how does one verify that it's the mainstream? On the one hand, according to LexisNexis and other databases, we have literally dozens of articles by journalists and academics reviewing discussing, analyzing, reporting books like The Passion of Ayn Rand (which, incidentally, was by a mainstream publisher) that ultimately led to a movie by the same name. On the other hand, so far, we have The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics, which was published by an obscure company (which Valliant's self-described "book agent" and housemate now tells us is allegedly out of business) and which received absolutely no mainstream attention from the independent press, no reviews in scholarly journals, no citations in university presses and (so far) three very brief mentions in commercial books (one or two of which were not really favorable). Last but not least, we have Prof. Sciabarra who (admittedly writing in a blog because he could not be bothered to publish a real review in a respected journal) informs us: "To be clear: Valliant didn't write a biography of Rand or an intellectual history of Objectivism. He wrote a prosecutorial indictment that frequently exhibits a scorched-earth style, which tends to undermine any truly reasonable points he has raised about bias, contradictions, conflicting points of view, corroborating evidence, or insufficient sourcing in the works of the Brandens." Is Valliant and his book part of the fringe of the Objectivist movement? Assuming that one could argue he should be included at all, Valliant and his book increasingly remind me of the research methods of David Irving -- another author who proudly unearthed original documents from the archives to let the documents "speak for themselves" in order to argue a certain novel re-interpretation of history and whose ultimate reception on the fringes of the profession today needs no reminding. Is PARC a fringe book? I think so. J Readings (talk) 20:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, now seriously. How am I supposed to assume good faith with this kind of thing? Comparing a book based on Rand's own journals to Holocaust revisionism? Sorry, J Readings, but your agenda is showing. -Lisa (talk) 20:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

David Irving also tried to show original documents (selectively) that the mainstream did not accept. That is the point. Forget about Holocaust revisionism, Lisa -- that's irrelevant. I never mentioned it. The point is unearthing original documents to argue novel interpretations about history that are not accepted in the mainstream. And as for agendas, I have yet to see you try to produce any constructive verifiable information in this discussion. So if you want to talk about agendas, let's talk about yours shall we? J Readings (talk) 20:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On being self published

What is the evidence here that the book was self-published? I'm not looking for statements that it wasn't or there is no evidence, I'm looking for editors who contend it was to show us some independant evidence. --Karbinski (talk) 15:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Personal Information

At this point a great deal of personal information about Mr. Valliant has been revealed on this talk page and others. I think oversight would be in order. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? We should probably move fast, before this gets backed up by bots and spread to all corners of the internet. TallNapoleon (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I was hesitant to go that route unilaterally, but you are probably right - especially as the editor responsible has twice said that Mr Valliant disapproves of what's happening. It seems unlikely that the trickle of information will cease of its own accord.KD Tries Again (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

This is all getting really weird, and honestly, this is why our god-king created admins. I say we notify ANI, bring them in here, and have them clean it out with whatever oversight, etc. is required. TallNapoleon (talk) 21:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I removed a significant block of personal information about him previously, but there are still little bits here and there. Since he has apparently made a public posting elsewhere about the one pertinent fact (his publishing arrangements with Durban House), I don't see any relevance to any personal information that might remain here. It should go. --RL0919 (talk) 21:38, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Objectivist_movement#Accusations_of_cultism

So when Pelagius brought up Walker, I decided to take a look at the "Accusations of cultism" section in that article. It's a mess. Breaking it up by the individual authors making the charge is really clumsy and leads, in my opinion, to problems with weight. Plus, we again have the separate "response" section. It would be much, much better if all of this could be integrated into a single section, with Rothbard leading, others following, and criticism integrated. TallNapoleon (talk) 08:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense. I never wrote the section, but it does appear to be choppy. Also, I have to say, I just started looking at some of these citations and -- My God people -- once again the reader is treated to a host of self-published sources, partisan self-published blogs, unspecified archives to I-don't-know-where and everything under the sun expect what should be there: academic journals, newspapers, and books. I can't believe (and I know I'm not) the only editor who has access on Wikipedia to a public library or electronic databases. J Readings (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I really dislike choppy, and yes, reliable sources all around! --Karbinski (talk) 13:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Taking a quick look at the sources, I think there are more "reliable" (within Wikipedia standards, not saying that I agree with them) sources than it might seem at first. A number of the web links are to materials that were published and simply happen to be available online now. Others can be fixed by updating the source to something more direct (e.g., quoting a book directly rather than quoting it "as cited by" a website). I'll see what I can do with them later this evening. As to rewriting the text for better flow, that's probably beyond my available time at the moment. --RL0919 (talk) 19:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to edit one and I keep getting a database error. So I guess I'll try again tomorrow. --RL0919 (talk) 04:41, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Archiving

Is there some way we can get Miszabot to archive this, even though it's not a talk page? TallNapoleon (talk) 00:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You would have to ask Misza. If not, it would not be too much of a chore to do manually. I think sections can be archived two weeks after they have been <noinclude>d. Skomorokh 03:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed deletion of Center for the Advancement of Capitalism

I have proposed this article for deletion due to notability concerns. If you think it can be rescued, please add references and remove the {{prod}} tag; alternatively, {{prod2}} can be used to endorse the proposal. Skomorokh 03:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for Deletion of Content Fork Articles

Result

Merge Criticisms of Objectivism with Objectivism article

Result

Bibliography of work on Objectivism

Proposed Changes

#1 (no duplication with Ayn Rand#Bibliography)

#2 (zap influenced section)

#3 and #4 (sub-lists)

#5 (zap list of authors)

#6 (quality filter)

Discussion opened for Epistemology article to be blanked-out

Result

Discussion opened for Ethics article to be blanked-out

Result

Proposed deletion of Evasion (Objectivism)

Result

Proposed deployment of Template:Objectivist movement

James Valliant in strange places...

Proposed removal of references to James Valliant and The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics

Result

Bibliography of work on Objectivism as a good list of articles that should be reviewed.

Gulching

Culling WikiProject Objectivism Articles (and adding some new ones in)

Signing up for the WikiProject

Notification

Proposal: Use C-Class to mean "target for merge or deletion"

Gulching nominated for deletion

Journal of Ayn Rand Studies

Valliant revisited

Arbitrary Section Break

Google Books

On being a Fringe Theory

On being self published

Personal Information

Objectivist_movement#Accusations_of_cultism

Archiving

Proposed deletion of Center for the Advancement of Capitalism