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Help talk:IPA/Czech and Slovak

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kwamikagami (talk | contribs) at 08:47, 12 May 2009 (→transcription changes). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

transcription changes

Currently, this page offers too narrow a transcription convention. There are a number of things we should do to modify it

  1. Use <o> for both long and short o. It looks like the vowel is actually mid to close-mid, and we might as well use the typographically easiest letter (this is how it's done with Spanish, Greek, and Hebrew).
  2. Remove the diacritics for the diphthongs so that they are either [ou], [ɛu] and [au] or [ow], [ɛw] and [aw]. I'm leaning towards the former but if Czech makes contrasts between e.g. Cau and Ca.u, then the latter is better.
  3. organize the symbols in alphabetical order like they are done in the other IPA for X pages. This also includes not separating sonorants and consonants into different tables.
  4. remove the voiceless version of the fricative trill since it's an allophone and requires additional diacritics that we needn't require editors to use.
  5. note somehow that /oː/. /f/, /g/, and the two voiced affricates appear mostly/only in foreign loanwords.
Then we can create {{IPA-cs}} and start using this page. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 18:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I don't know whether you can find true minimal pairs, but there are certainly Czech words where adjacent vowels do not form a diphthong, e.g., použít [ˈpɔ.uʒiːt], nauka [ˈna.uka], neustále [ˈnɛ.ustaːlɛ]. These can be also pronounced with an intervening glottal stop, e.g., [ˈpɔʔuʒiːt]. — Emil J. 12:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All right. That's reason enough to use w rather than u. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 07:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This needs to reflect what's used in the articles. Currently the voiceless and diphthong diacritics are being used.

I realize the English approximations I just added aren't always very good. Maybe we can add note to the ones that are particularly poor. But this key is for people who know neither the IPA nor Czech, so merely illustrating the IPA with Czech isn't going to do much good.

Some of the articles are going to need normalizing. For instance, Občanský průkaz was transcribed [ɔbtʃʌnskiː pɾuːkʌz]. (I otherwise corrected it but left the flap, which I wasn't sure about.)

I think obvious allophones such as devoicing should be left in. Better a little more work for the editor than to mislead the reader. After all, Czech consonants don't all devoice, and the reader shouldn't need to know which are which.

BTW, I've been through a hundred of these, and none have used w for diphthongs. (Not that that means we shouldn't switch.) I'd rather get the diphthong and devoicing diacritics added to the WP edit window, like on Wiktionary. kwami (talk) 08:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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