Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 26

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia talk:Citing sources
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MiszaBot II (talk | contribs) at 06:49, 7 May 2009 (Archiving 2 thread(s) from Wikipedia talk:Citing sources.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Archive 20←Archive 24Archive 25Archive 26Archive 27Archive 28→Archive 30

Number of cites per inline statement

If we have a statement like "Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall", and that event is reported by 100 news agencies, is it appropriate to list as cite every one of them using an inline EL? I think its obviously redundant and clutters the article. Let's say only 3 sources report the event. Shouldn't that also be considered redundant? At what point does one how many cites is enough and over that is too many?--Fasttimes68 (talk) 13:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes that is excessive, especially since all reports are copies of a single eye-witness report. In general it is good practice that if you want to report an undisputed fact, a single reference suffices (e.g.: "Humpty Dumpty fell of the wall [1]"). If there are opposing views, or you want to refer to several examples you need more (e.g.: "there are several reports about Humpty Dumpty falling of the wall [1],[2],[3]"). Arnoutf (talk) 14:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Normally, one would be enough, but more might be useful if the best source is hard to access, so a more accessible but less reliable source is required. For example:
"Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall and died." [1][2]
[1]Death Certificate of Humpty Dumpty. (12 December 2007) On file at Wonderland County Clerk's office.
[2]"Egg dies in fall." (8 December 2007) Wonderland College Student News. Retrieved from not.a.real.web.site 9 August 2009.
--Gerry Ashton (talk) 14:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, could you look at the multiple references listed in Stephanie_Adams and comment as to why those extra references are acceptable or not?--Fasttimes68 (talk) 15:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Biographies of living persons have particularly strict demands on referencing, especially when dealing with potentially contentious issues like sexual orientation and legal issues. Multiple references can sometime be bundled together, however, using the syntax <ref><ul><li><li></ul></ref>, to help with ease of reading (this does not work with named references).
In any case, as I've mentioned above, I think a guideline should be introduced to curb the unnecessary multiple referencing that we see in some articles. It's an impediment both to reading, editing and page load. Lampman (talk) 16:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

slobbovia (not the game)

Al Capp the cartoonist made references to Slobbovia and Slobovians in his cartoons which are not available to me to be specific. I Dont have the resources to research this. Help 64.35.200.6 (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Name order

Why do we put surname before given name(s) in our citations? I.e. "Bloom, Harold" for Harold Bloom. Most sources (both news and academic publishers) seem to do it the other way. --Apoc2400 (talk) 17:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

One of the allowable citation styles is Parenthetical referencing, where the author and either title or year are placed after the passage to be supported, in parentheses. If this is done without templates, or if the article has been printed, the only reasonable way for the reader to find the reference is to look in the alphabetized "References" section. Placing the surname first in that section makes it easier for the reader to find the reference of interest. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 17:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I suspect this is not what Apoc2400 is talking about, though. I have noticed many articles not with parenthesized, in-text author-date citations, but rather with footnote citations, which use templates clearly designed for lists of references or bibliographies. These templates invert the author names, which is decidedly not normal practice in footnotes found in both news and academic publications.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Many of the citation templates can be used for either parenthetical referencing or footnotes, so they must put surname first in case they are being used with parenthetical referencing. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 17:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that is basically what I said. The question is, why can they be used for footnotes, when the format they generate is clearly meant for alphabetized reference lists?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
It's infuriating. qp10qp (talk) 14:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

What is a legitimate source?

Are there any guidelines as to what is a legitimate source? I cited an Amazon.com editorial review of a DVD (not a user review, the site's official review) and it was removed as not notable. That seems strange, since Amazon is one of the largest retailers in the world and I have seen their reviews cited elsewhere. Note that this is in an article where there are a couple of editors who are very adamant about removing things they deem unworthy, and so I'd like to get some sort of official word on this. Thanks. 128.151.71.18 (talk) 21:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I am unaware of any notability requirement for qualifying supporting sources. WP:RS provides source reliability guidelines. It seems to me that the an editorial review by Amazon staff should be as acceptable as editorial reviews from other sources, and that reviews by individual readers which might be found on Amazon should be unacceptable. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
A close reading of WP:RS might suggest that a "review" by the seller of an item, might not be considered neutral or reliabel. Jezhotwells (talk) 09:57, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Please see here for my proposal of a new template, that would be put on articles that need to have their sources globalized - i.e. on articles that rely on a very similar set of sources likely representing one and the same POV.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

American to International date.

On a lot of Articles you are doing American format, how about changing format to non US? Govvy (talk) 23:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The relevant guideline to apply here is "Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Full date formatting". — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 05:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

hmm, k, I because a lot of editors doing 2008-11-11 type style I noticed. So maybe they have been doing it wrong? Govvy (talk) 17:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean that editors have been putting dates in the format "2008-11-11" in citation templates? This is probably because the previous practice was to wikilink such dates (like this: "[[2008-11-11]]"), but later on consensus was reached to stop linking such dates. Therefore, what could have happened was that an editor or a bot removed the link without changing the format of the date. You can help to convert such dates to "11 November 2008" or "November 11, 2008", following the guidelines set out in "Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Full date formatting". — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

k, I shall use the British format day-month-year. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 20:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Govvy, do have a look at the guideline. It's not just a matter of what you prefer. It also depends on the subject of the article (US format for US-related articles, UK format for UK-related articles and articles relating to countries that use British English), as well as whether one format has consistently been used in the article in the past. Simply changing from one formatting style to the other without following the guidelines is a no-no. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 14:20, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Parenthetical referencing

Apologies if this has been discussed here before. I wonder what others' opinions are of the readability of articles such as Harold Pinter and The arts and politics where a form of MLA style citation is used. In the case of the Pinter article, clicking on an inline footnote number brings one to a footnote, somtimes the footnote quotes from the source, and gives the name of the cited autor, e.g. Pinter's paternal "grandmother's maiden name was Baron … he adopted it as his stage-name … [and] used it [Baron] for the autobiographical character of Mark in the first draft of [his novel] The Dwarfs" (Billington, Harold Pinter 3, 47–48). (footnote 22), sometimes the footnote simply directs to various authours, e.g. See discussions of these plays throughout Batty; Grimes; and Baker (footnote 35), sometimes the inline citation is simply parenthetical, e.g. ("Still Pinteresque" 16). In all of these cases one has to seek out the actual source in another article Bibliography for Harold Pinter.

It is very confusing and several users have commented on this in talk pages, but the editor who imposed this style insists that it is perfectly clear. Please check out these pages if you have the time and energy. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Are all the references to the articles listed on the page itself, or are there cited sources whose bibliographic information is only listed on another page. The second I would find problematic for various reasons, including reuse, but the first seems pretty workable (if the bibliography subpage is only for "further reading" type works). Christopher Parham (talk) 22:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
As I stated above, to pursue the references in the article Harold Pinter one has to look up another article Bibliography for Harold Pinter. Take a look at Harold Pinter to see what I am talking about. Jezhotwells (talk) 09:39, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

As the editor (J.) commenting above already knows, since I have explained it several times, and since the "Style Sheet" makes it clear, the format is The MLA Style Manual format, it has existed in the article through its "good article" review (since October 7, 2007), and the Bibliography for Harold Pinter is not a "separate article"; it is a split-off section that serves as the "Works Cited" for Harold Pinter, which contains many print-published sources. [The split occurred as a result of the 2007 "good article" review; there are many sections of earlier versions (pre-good article review versions) of the article that became developed parts of sections; but the Bibliography is clearly still a major section of the article, as it serves as the article's "Works Cited" (Harold Pinter#Works cited = Bibliography for Harold Pinter).]

(cont.) This is a very common method in Wikipedia that exists for many articles; e.g., see Rwandan genocide#Bibliography, where a (earlier version) model for devising such a split originated in my own 2005 to 2007 editing experience in Wikipedia. [since I've looked at it then, the citations appear to have become a mixture of formats, due to other editing, but it still uses the short parenthetical citation method keyed to its bibliography for its print sources; people have been strewing ELs into Rwandan Genocide and it needs further cleaning up. Not a job that I can now engage in due to too much other non-Wikipedia etc. work obligations.] --NYScholar (talk) 11:14, 13 March 2009 (UTC) [updated in brackets. --NYScholar (talk) 13:31, 13 March 2009 (UTC)]
(cont.) J. has been "shopping around" in various project pages, talk pages, and wherever possible, to oppose a long-standing prevailing citation format in an article that apparently J. first encountered only after the death of the subject on December 24, 2008. This topic [the use of MLA style parenthetical source citations keyed to a list of "Works cited": the "Style Sheet" of Harold Pinter since 2005 and through its "good article" review culminating in "good article" status in October 2007] is fully discussed in the appropriate place for such discussion, in the RfC that J. started in Talk:Harold Pinter.
(cont.) The need for citations is for verification. They are not meant to interrupt reading the article. If one wants to read the sources (if online), one can either read them via the links (convenience links restored to the article) and/or in the Bibliography section. As the one who has added almost every source in that article, I have verified every print and every online source.
(cont.)The point of MLA style of parenthetical referencing is actually (as the articles relating to parenthetical referencing already state) to give the simplest way of doing that. Author-title is simpler than author-date, and for humanities subjects (as pointed out) more relevant. Dates are not as relevant as authors' identities and titles to humanities subjects[: "Moreover, in the arts and humanities, one is more likely to know the title of a work rather than its date (as opposed to the sciences, where it is common to refer to, for example, 'the 2004 study by Jones, et. al.')." (Some earlier ed. contributed that.) --NYScholar (talk) 11:19, 13 March 2009 (UTC)]

Please discuss this [in context on the relevant talk page, not here, where it is being taken out of context of extensive discussion]. Thanks. (I am exhausted from the contentiousness of J.'s approach, which elsewhere often moves into incivilities, as it works against the article's major contributors and good article reviewers rather than with us.) --NYScholar (talk) 11:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Quotation from the lead of Bibliography for Harold Pinter: "Bibliography for Harold Pinter is a list of selected published primary works, productions, secondary sources, and other resources related to English playwright Harold Pinter (1930–2008), the 2005 Nobel Laureate in Literature, who was also a screenwriter, actor, director, poet, author, and political activist. It lists works by and works about him, and it serves as the Bibliography ("Works cited") for the main article on Harold Pinter and for several articles relating to him and his works." --NYScholar (talk) 11:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

One has to make an effort to understand Parenthetical referencing which is not merely "Harvard style" or "Harvard referencing" as many editors from outside the U.S. appear to think; that is a misunderstanding of Parenthetical referencing. The article Parenthetical referencing and the section of Wikipedia:Citing sources seem to have been in the past controlled by various editors from outside the U.S. who do not realize that there are multiple methods or multiple styles of parenthetical referencing, because they only use one method where they are located. (And their specialties may not be writing.) Bibliographical specialists within the fields of writing and literary studies (English departments in U.S. colleges and universities)--and I am one of them--recognize, however, that almost every discipline now has adapted use of parenthetical citations (parenthetical referencing) to its various specific formats. Wikipedians, who may not be knowledgable about bibliography and documentation formats (specialties within writing and literary studies, where such formats are taught in American colleges and universities in introductory courses in "writing across the disciplines") just may be unaware of the breadth and scope and variety of documentation and citation methodogies. --NYScholar (talk) 11:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

(cont.) J.'s account is confusing (or the product of J.'s own confusions), not the format of the citations themselves (which are consistent). Please go to the article and examine it firsthand. It will stand up to scrutiny. --NYScholar (talk) 11:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
It is our current consensus that we should allow editors to invent any system for placing citations in articles that accurately verifies the text. This allows editors to be creative and perhaps someone will come up with a method that we all like better that anything we are currently using. That being said, there are many who have argued that a more consistent style between articles would be a benefit to readers and editors. So I think the appropriate attitude is that we may encourage editors to change unusual citation styles, but, if they feel strongly that their idiosyncratic method is better, they should be allowed to continue to use it. In other words, this isn't worth fighting over. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 06:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Books

Hi folks - hope life is treating everyone well. Question. I'm citing a book, and pulling information from various pages - I'm assuming that I don't need to list the book as 15 different references - and that if I just put (ex: pages: Preface, 3, 7, 25, 78, 124 etc.) in the one reference that I'm doing it the proper way. The question is, since I don't like to assume, is where would I find that documented in policy, or rather guideline I expect. I'm not asking anyone to do my wiki-homework - just point me to the proper section/page. Thanks. — Ched ~ (yes?) 07:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC) (a tb tag would be nice, since a lot of these pages go many days without answer) — Ched ~ (yes?) 07:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a case for inline Parenthetical referencing. Jezhotwells (talk) 09:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Parenthetical referencing is one possiblility, as Jezhotwells says. The guideline you are looking for is WP:CITE#Including page numbers. It's really a question of attitude. The wrong attitude is "I can prove I didn't make this up if I really have to". The right attitude is "assuming the reader has a copy of the book, how can I make it easy to find where the statement in the Wikipedia article is supported, and possibly find additional material of interest?" --Jc3s5h (talk) 15:49, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
You are free to use any method that you like, just so long as it is still possible for the reader to find the source for any information in the article. There are thousands of articles in Wikipedia that use several pages from the same source. Most (but by no means all) editors have chosen to use WP:Citing sources#Shortened notes to solve this problem. WP:Citing sources#Parenthetical referencing will also work, but is far less popular.
It's not clear from your post whether the citation you describe appears in a footnote, or in the references section at the bottom of the article. In either case, there is something you should consider. What if, several years from now, another editor changes the paragraph in the article that is based on the information on page 7 of the source. Now the citation claims that there is information in the article from page 7 of the source, but this isn't true any more. The citation needs to be fixed, but it is very unlikely that anyone will ever fix this, unless you fix it yourself. Do you see what I mean? This is one motivation for shortened notes (or parenthetical referencing): the short citation is right next to the text it supports, and it's easier for later editors to keep the citation in sync with the source.
Again, you are free to use any method you like, just so long as it works. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 06:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Precise language

Use of terms: “This guideline uses the terms citation and reference interchangeably.”

Why not reduce ambiguity, and use precise language? A reference is a source which is referred to. The “References” section of an article is a list of references. A citation is the occurrence in the body of an article where a quotation or passage from a reference is cited.

This stuff is discussed in a thousand talk pages. Why not help editors say what they mean by avoiding loose language in the MOS?

(Yeah, it's too bad the WP:Cite extension uses the terminology incorrectly, with the <ref> tag representing a citation, and <references/> for the “Notes” section, and not “References”. C'est la vie.) —Michael Z. 2009-02-07 17:21 z

I made a pass through the guideline removing ambiguous uses of the word "reference" where the less-ambiguous words "source" or "citation" would work. The guideline no longer uses the words interchangeably, so I rewrote the Use of Terms section so that it reflects how the article is using the words now. (I actually remember doing this a couple of years ago, and I remember deleting the "use of terms" section. But it reappeared, I guess.) Like you say, why be unclear? Why not just use the words in a consistent way? ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 08:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Four issues

I have several long standing problems with this guideline. (I've placed each under a different topic to keep the threads from getting entangled.) I plan on making changes based on these suggestions later in the week, if no one freaks out. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 09:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Avoid prescription when description is called for

This guideline discusses several issues for which there is no consensus. There is wide disagreement about citation templates, about various citation styles, about particular techniques and so on. When we discuss one of these issues in the guideline, we should try to stay descriptive rather than prescriptive. We are letting newer editors know what the alternatives are and hopefully showing them how previous editors have chosen to solve the same problems. We're not telling them what to do; we're describing what's been done. So it's better say that a technique is "commonplace" rather than "encouraged" or to say that it is "preferred by some editors" rather than "permitted". This is a more accurate way to talk about the current status of this guideline. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 09:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Too much detail

This guideline only needs to describe the most popular methods, used in thousands of articles. It should, of course, also note that other methods exist and make it clear that the editor is free to use (or invent) any method that works. But right now, some parts of the text bog down unnecessary detail (the second list under WP:CITE#How to present citations is a prime example). We don't need to iterate over every possible permutation of these techniques; the reader can figure it out. By attempting to be comprehensive, we only succeed in confusing the reader and making it look like there are a lot more rules than there really are. We could improve and expand (and retitle?) "WP:Citing sources/Further considerations" or WP:Verification methods so that it covers every permutation. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 09:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Define "Reasonable Time"

The Citing Sources article says: .. remember to go back and remove the claim if no source is produced within a reasonable time, my question is: how long is considered reasonable time? NinjaKid (talk) 11:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is one of those matters where it is a good idea to be too prescriptive. It's really up to the person who has taken an interest in the article and has added a {{fact}} tag. In normal cases seven to 14 days would probably be reasonable, but if the editor who has been working actively on the article says she needs more time to hunt down a reference I don't see why it wouldn't be reasonable to allow a longer period. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 11:51, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Great thanks. Should this information be added to the article for others? NinjaKid (talk) 14:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
It's probably not necessary, in view of WP:CREEP. But let's see what others think. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 15:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I have waited as long as a year. Sometimes the authors of unsourced information simply disappear. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 06:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I would not specify a time, because it depends on the specifics. If you're pretty sure it's catastrophically wrong, you might remove it within a few days (or even immediately, skipping the tag step). If you're pretty sure it's right, but it deserves a proper citation, then a year -- or forever, really -- is fine. As a rule of thumb, if I know nothing about the subject, I avoid deleting facts that haven't been tagged for at least a month. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Conflict of referencing styles

There appears to be a collision of methods by which to reference an article at Harold Alexander, 1st Earl Alexander of Tunis. If others with a more detailed knowledge of referencing styles - especially within Wikipedia - could offer their input, it would be appreciated, especially as I, at least, can take any lessons learned on to my future editing. The discussion is taking place at Talk:Harold Alexander, 1st Earl Alexander of Tunis#References. --Miesianiacal (talk) 19:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay with you?

This is a little thing, but I'd like to retitle "How to present citations" to "Where to put citations in articles". It's clearer. Anybody married to the original language? ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 09:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Not really a "little thing" at all, the use of established language should be discussed. I tried fitfully and fruitlessly to define citations, footnotes and bibliography previously through a protracted and extended dialogue. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:44, 22 March 2009 (UTC).
I do agree that "references" is an entirely ambiguous term. Does it mean reference sources? are print and non-print sources included? why is there an "external links: and what is the reason for the infernal "for further reading"? FWiW just ranting at this point... don't get me started on the citation templates. Bzuk (talk) 12:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Um, I think CharlesGillingham's proposal is solely to change the section heading WP:CITE#How to present citations to WP:CITE#Where to put citations in articles. I don't care what the section heading on this page is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:27, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's right. I just want to change the title to something a bit clearer. I'm still calling citations "citations". ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 11:12, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 Done. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 01:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately, your edit has broken links to the section, including one on the page itself (in the last paragraph before the TOC). This is an important section, and probably has links directly to it from all over the place. It's important to maintain those links, especially for novices. When you change a linked section's name, anybody clicking on a link to it goes to the top of the page, with no indication of the link not being found. That's confusing for novices, and doubly so since they won't find the section in the TOC any more. Unfortunately, you can't use the "What links here" tool to find these anchor links. Although I like the new name better, I think you should change it back until/unless you find everything that links to it and change those, too. Unconventional (talk) 13:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Never mind. User:Philip Baird Shearer fixed it using something I was unaware of: You can add additional anchors using the {{anchor}}, {{anchors}}, or {{section}} template. By adding anchors for the previous names of the section, the old links have been restored to working order. Unconventional (talk) 03:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
In my defense, the link was working after my edit. Check it. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 16:16, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

My revert

I've gone back to Charles Gillingham's March 22 version, as the writing was clearer and more streamlined, and the terms were used more consistently. Some of the changes since then seem to be a deterioration, especially the replacement of "citation" with "source." SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Retrieval dates for online versions of old printed sources, again

I know this has been discussed a couple of times in these Talk archives, but I want to bring it up again. What is the rationale for requiring access/retrieval dates for online versions of past printed materials?

For example, editors are beginning to link book cites to Google Books. Thus, editors are putting "Retrieved on" on their cites, in addition to the usual author, title, publisher, year, ISBN, and page information. It looks very strange to see a book being "retrieved" ... such a link is just a convenience link (problematic too, given the semi-random way Google Books' "limited view" works); the content of the book is unchanging. If the link goes bad, the rest of the cite remains: an unchanging reference to an unchanging book.

Another case are old newspaper and magazine articles. If a cite gives a 1983 New York Times story's publication date, title, and author, and also gives a convenience link to the NYT archive, what is the value of having the retrieval date for this? The content of the story is fixed and unchanging, and is defined by the print/microfilm version. Again, if the archive goes away, the rest of the cite remains, an unchanging reference to an unchanging story. If the archive gets moved, one would re-lookup the online version by the published date/title/author information; knowing the old retrieval date wouldn't tell you anything.

And there is a real cost to having retrieval dates in place everywhere: to us they take up article edit space, to browsers they increase output HTML space, and to readers they clutter up the cite and can be visually confused with publication date. I understand that retrieval dates are necessary for web pages without publication dates, and arguably necessary for dated news stories originally published online (CNN, current NYT, etc.), but I just don't see the rationale for them in the above cases. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

It's useful to be able to refer to that date in the WayBack Machine at archive.org. In the case of the NYT archive, we can be fairly certain that those will always remain, but other links won't. It's quite possible that some print sources could be basically impossible (or rather expensive/time-consuming) to track down. People will increasingly rid of print archives. However, if you're crunched for time, do what you can. If it's a podunk town newspaper, put the date; if it's the NYT, don't worry about it. That's my take at least. ImperfectlyInformed | {talk - contribs} 23:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The most common cause of newspaper links going bad is that articles get moved behind pay/subscriber walls. Is the WayBack machine able to show the article anyway, or are they enjoined from making free what is otherwise supposed to be charged for? Wasted Time R (talk) 23:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
One of the issues with the citation template is that the nomenclature of "retrieved on" is tacked on automatically and now has become part of the architecture of the citationa as judged by the amount of citation templates in place. I agree that the term looks arcane but with its widespread use, it is hard now to incorporate a "found," "accessed" or "located" tag as an alternative. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC).
To clarify, my issue is not with what word is used here. I don't think books or old newspaper articles should be listed as "found", "accessed", or "located" either. Those printed sources are unchanging over time; it doesn't matter if you "find" a 1976 book in 1988 or 2008, it's the same book. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely agree on that point, sources that are "fixed" in time, do not require a location date. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC).

The "retrieved date" merely refers to the convenience link to the online version, and may be safely removed on any cite that is not an online link. That's all. (And if the link goes bad, the dead-tree portion of the cite remains valid.) -- Yellowdesk (talk) 00:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

But what's the purpose of a retrieval date for an online version that's just mirroring a print original? What usefulness does it have? What does it tell anyone? Wasted Time R (talk) 04:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • On more than a few occasions I have used the retrieval date for munged references to rediscover the orginal edit that created it, and on more ephemeral sources, search for likely new location for the changing location of the convenience link. In some cases a retireval date indicates when the (changing) source was viewed and relied upon, occasionally important, when the source has changed. It's not superflous, but I would consider it optional.
    Who's to say that even a supposedly fixed archival convenience link will stay that way, and what harm comes from using the access date even there, such as in this example:
    "New Hampshire: Nomination of Bainbridge Wadleigh for United States Senator at the Republican Caucus". New York Times. June 14, 1872. p. 1. Retrieved 2008-05-05. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) -- Yellowdesk (talk) 14:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The harm is that the "Retrieved on" takes up extra space (a real issue for our longer, heavily-cited BLP articles) and moreoever is visually confusing — the reader sees two dates, instead of the expected one, and has to figure out what each means, which a possible risk of mistaking the retrieval date for the publication date. In the example of this old NYT story, if the link stops working, it's because the NYT moved its archive or changed its for-free policy on this time period or something like that. If you need to find where they moved it to, you'll do a lookup within nytimes.com using the article's title and publication date; when someone last retrieved it won't matter one way or another. And would you really use a retrieval date for a book, that someone happened to look up in Google Books instead of at a physical library? That really seems offbase to me. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, I would, and have. Especially on heavily edited articles. For the reasons I stated further above: an indicator of when the convenience link worked. I do consider it optional. For example, if some link has an old retrieval date, and apparently not findable by search, then I tend toward deleting the convenience link. For more recent dead links, I'm less likely to remove the link--perhaps the publisher/source is in process of revising the link/location. Essential? No. Useful? Yes. The "retrieved on" is in english, and if using a template, the template does indicate through the parameters how to properly use it. Say more about the confusion you've encountered. (I have to remark, there's plenty of other confusion on articles surrounding refs, such as puctuation, quotations, where to place it and so on, and I've done a fair big of cleaning up other's typos and misplacments on that score. Is this that much different?) -- Yellowdesk (talk) 05:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I think this largely depends on the 'dependability' of the on-line source. For the NYT above, the accessdate is not really needed. On the other end of the spectrum, here is where someone (it's not even clear who) added sections of a (very) small town newspaper from the first half of the 1900s. It's true that this is on-line copy of a print original, but I think it would be rather difficult for even a motivated researcher to find that original. So in practice, the web copy is all that exists, its maintenance is unknown, and an accessdate tag is appropriate. As to how this might be implemented in practice, I think there could be a list of sources that are considered stable enough that accessdate tags are not needed (major newspapers, academic journals (DOIs are an explicit attempt to address this here), arXiv and other pre-print servers, and so on). LouScheffer (talk) 17:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
(off topic) You deserve a barnstar if you've been cleaning up refs. I'm surprised you haven't run off screaming. :) -- Fullstop (talk) 19:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Hide the access date

In order to find the content of broken links in archives it would be sufficient to store the retrieval date in a comment that is not visible to a reader, only to editors. This is an approach I would support.
Otherwise, I second the notion that (visible) retrieval dates for off-line media are visually irritating, cluttering and superfluous. --EnOreg (talk) 05:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
A partial solution would be modify the citation templates to store info generated by the accessdate= parameters as a in an HTML comment that is not visible to a reader, only to editors. That would quickly handle a large percentage of retrieval dates. Many thousands of articles would need to be individually edited to bring the handcrafted cites into line. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 05:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Bill suggests what I had in mind: Leave the parameters of the citation templates as they are, just modify their implementation to not display the access date (except cite web). And adjust the WP policy pages to reflect this change. --EnOreg (talk) 01:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be easier to just use a field that is visible to people editing the page but not to people viewing the page? But that function is available now in all templates: just use a field that the template does not itself already use. E.g. invisible-retrieval-date= ... —David Eppstein (talk) 16:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. By removing any mention of {{{accessdate}}} in the template implementation, the data would remain, but wouldn't be parsed by the server, so the casual reader's display wouldn't be cluttered. I'd support that for {{cite journal}}, at the very least, as with this template the accessdate is of no real utility when rendered. Smith609 Talk 16:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Not sure sure I follow. Sounds to me like we violently agree. What's the difference between your proposal and Bill's? --EnOreg (talk) 18:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
To "hide" the access date, the templates only have to not parse accessdate= parameter. No HTML comment is necessary, nor is it necessary to rename the parameter. After all, its still in the source.
But "hiding" the access date only addresses the symptoms. It does not fix the underlying problem, which is the misconception that a source on the web is a web source.
As such, merely hiding the access date (however that hiding occurs) for all but {{cite web}} will not be much use -- {{cite web}} is being used for virtually everything that editors happen to find on the "web".
The source of this misconception is of course the {{cite xyz}} farrago. That a source on the web must be cited with {{cite web}} is merely a "logical" continuation of that nonsensical paradigm. That is the real problem (and living proof that caring about sources has zero priority).
But hiding accessdate is a start, even if its only a band-aid. Next step other insane linking (e.g. google books, amazon, jstor and so on). In the long run we must teach editors how to cite properly, how to quote properly, and why it is necessary to do both.
-- Fullstop (talk) 19:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The retrieved date allows a reader to understand the age of the online link. In the past, I have done a manual link check and have updated those retrieved dates to show that the links were still valid as of that date. The CheckLinks tool checks links, updates to archived links on dead links and now optionally updates the retrieved dates. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 15:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

  • I invite someone to apprise those who watch the various "cite" templates to put a notice on each of the cite-template talk pages, that this conversation is occurring. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 05:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I put a notice there already some days ago. Anything else we can do to invite feedback? --EnOreg (talk) 15:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


I do not see how an accessdate on sources which do not change - such as journal articles - is beneficial. However, on sources which may change, such as web content, it helps clarify which version of a page is being cited. Therefore I feel it ought to be displayed only in the cite web template. I don't think anyone has disagreed with this feeling here, so I suggest that someone bold goes ahead and proposes or enacts the change at all non-"cite-web" templates. People have had the chance to complain if they feel otherwise! Smith609 Talk 23:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate what is being discussed here. In my opinion there are two issues popping up:

  1. Print sources of which you get a copy from the web (JSTOR etc) should be referred to as their print version. Access date is irrelevant as the content is not dependent on the web, nor will it ever change. For such sources the use of citeweb should discouraged, and access date not listed or removed
  2. True web sources, which are rarer than most editors seem to think is another issue altogether. Websources are not permanent, and even if they are long term the content may dramatically change. Therefore it is not only essential that access date is recorded and reported, but also that when updating text for such sources a critical reflection whether the text is still covered by the website has to be applied. In printed articles, this is not so much an issue as you refer to the website once, and your text will not change, even if the website content does. As both Wikipedia and referred to websites change this is very complicated indeed. Arnoutf (talk) 06:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Consensus: It indeed seems we have consensus that access dates for online copies of offline sources, while helpful as a comment in the source, should be hidden from the reader. I have removed the RFC (style) tag and will modify the policy. Anybody who is competent to adapt the citation templates, please do so. Thanks everybody, --EnOreg (talk) 08:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

HTML comments are stripped out by the Mediawiki software, so these won't be visible except in the original template call. I've included one here, for instance: Would it be better to hide the date with CSS? — Omegatron (talk) 17:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea. We can also assign an ID to it in case people want to make it visible with user css. --Karnesky (talk) 18:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I've responded to all the editprotected requests that are up at the moment by wrapping the "retrieved on..." text in a CSS class (reference-accessdate), so it can be hidden in either personal or sitewide CSS while still being accessible for those that want to see it. You can personally hide the accessdates yourself by adding 
.reference-accessdate {display: none}
to your monobook.css. If there is a real and extensive consensus to hide these data, adding the same code to MediaWiki:Common.css would have the same effect for all users who didn't override it in their own monobook. Happy‑melon 17:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. Options are better than hard coding here. Where do we document this? --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 18:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
No idea :D. From a technical end, I've added to the catalogue at WP:CLASS; where and how you note the new feature is the balliwack of people on this page. As an ultimate goal, we ought to be working towards encapsulating all the similar reference 'facts' in suitable css (reference-title, reference-volume, etc) and defining their appearance centrally in Mediawiki:Common.css. That greatly facilitates updating and standardisation between cite templates (I shouldn't have had to edit five templates to implement this change), and instantly circumvents the "data X should have formatting Y because it's the standard of source Z": we can just say: go on then, add foo to your monobook and the problem is solved. Ultimately, I have yet to see a good reason why a properly-built {{cite meta}} is not possible, to centralise and de-duplicate the considerable amount of code (the CoinS tags, for instance) that is almost identical across all the cite templates, and needs to be maintained in the same way in each. But that's another story. Happy‑melon 19:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree that this is the better implementation. Many thanks, Happy-melon! I believe now the default CSS should hide the access date from unexperienced users. They are most unlikely to go and research a broken link and therefore wouldn't lose anything. But they would gain a less cluttered WP appearance. The same is probably true for the vast majority even of experienced users. Where do I campaign for this change? Cheers, --EnOreg (talk) 05:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

No. Doesn't agree with best practice, no discernible benefit, doesn't agree with most common ciation methods on Wiki. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I really can't see the point, as the page currently appears to require, and is certainly believed by most to require, of adding access dates for Project Gutenburg and similar online texts, and museum images with a numbered page name. Either may one day go dead, but the links won't change to new content. Johnbod (talk) 08:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Do you really think so? I don't. Jane Eyre, accessed through Project Gutenburg, is still the book Jane Eyre. I might link to PG for convenience, but the access date is really about citing websites that were created as websites, not books that happen to be conveniently available online. I don't cite access dates for news articles that I read online, either. Reuters News or Associated Press stories will be verifiable for many years after the news.yahoo.com link goes dead.
Have you looked at what this guideline actually says? Access dates are never required. They're only deemed helpful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
That isn't the line taken by many PR/FAC reviewers, and if what you say is the case, which I am glad to hear, the wording is far from clear. Johnbod (talk) 18:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you'll ask them nicely to show you exactly where this guideline requires it. The effort to find a non-existent requirement should be an educational experience for them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
As I say, the wording is not very clear, and whenever this is the case people will become entrenched in a particular view. Johnbod (talk) 22:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Maybe they consider it the best practice to inform the reader when certain information has been used. It's academic accuracy and may affect the reading of the material in some cases. Ty 22:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't see it myself - see the PR on Raphael, although this often comes up on other articles. Johnbod (talk) 22:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Peer_review/Raphael/archive1 specifies "internet refs". Since websites do change, it is reasonable to include the access date, just like you'd include a publication date if you were citing a newspaper. If the ref isn't web-only -- and I see no reason to think that this comment is intended to apply to anything else -- then an access date is unimportant.
I'd like to make this less confusing, but I honestly don't see the problem. Exactly which words in this guideline do you find unclear? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the dubious-discuss template after a review so cursory it missed this section (obviously, my bad but I'm going out on a BRD limb). Since webpages change, accessdates should be given and should be visible in the references section to enable verification in case the website changes or disappears and the Internet Archive is used (though obviously updating the link and information is preferred). Invisible links help only on-line editors who are really interested in this, there's no help for print versions. Citation templates all allow for an accessdate= parameter, which produces a visible datestamp. Seems a good idea to encourage including accessdate for all online sources. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 12:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
WLU, according to this discussion I don't think there is a consensus for your change. As you mentioned BRD I hope you don't mind if I revert... --EnOreg (talk) 20:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Access date for newsgroups and mailing lists

I don't see any strong consensus to hide this parameter for templates where the availability of material might be ephemeral. I think it should stay visible on, at least, the generic citation template, the mailing list template, the newsgroup template. --Karnesky (talk) 13:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, I'm afraid this hasn't been discussed properly, yet. To make this clear: I don't advocate removing the access date, only hiding it from the reader. Unlike most web pages, posts to mailing lists and newsgroups carry a "publication" date that doesn't change. Therefore, the additional access date doesn't add any value for the reader. It can, however, make it easier for editors to recover a link that has become unavailable. That's why we should keep it in the page source as a comment. Note that mailing lists and newsgroups are being replicated and archived in so many different places that it is much easier to find a post than a copy of an arbitrary web page. --EnOreg (talk) 13:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I understand what you are advocating, but I think that it should stay visible for content that might not be locatable or might have changed at some future date.
As a reader, I've printed out articles & retrieved the references from them (both physical sources & online sources), and the accessdate is useful for sources that might change URLs, disappear completely (some usenet posts have requests not to archive, for example), etc. The parameter's utility is greater than any aesthetic objections. At bare minimum, the accessdate should be visible when the publication date parameter is not given. But I think it should always be visible for sources that don't have physical manifestations. --Karnesky (talk) 14:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd like state that I'm strongly opposed to this idea for any template that may cite any kind of online material. For Cite book, Cite paper, etc, that are only used to cite physical or "permanent" publications (even if it may be found online and linked to in a particular template), then so be it, Accessdate isn't necessary. But to hide it in Cite news, Cite press release, Cite map, etc etc (which more and more may cite a document online that *cannot* be found in print) is doing a grave disservice to anyone who doesn't want or know how do delve into the edit page and figure things out, yet still may want information that will allow them to access a website that has been lost over time. That is precisely what Accessdate is useful for; not to mention, even for webpages that are still existent, it says precisely when data was originally pulled from the source. "Accessed on..." or some variant of it is an almost universal standard for citation formats outside of Wiki...I see no reason why we should be the oddballs and not use them in a citation display. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 14:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I only argue to hide the access date for sources that already have a publication date. These source typically don't change after initial publication, and even if they do the publication date is enough to find the original content in the Internet Archive. What additional value do you see that the access date provides that makes it too important to hide? --EnOreg (talk) 05:55, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Hiding the date for one template such as {{cite news}} without changing all of the templates is going to cause some inconsistency. There are already enough differences among the cite templates. There are opinions on both sides of the issue as to show or hide the accessdate— why not allow editors who don't want to see the accessdate to be able to hide it? We should be able to come up with a script to do this and get it approved as a gadget. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 19:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess this has largely been taken care of by Happy-melons implementation (s)he explains above? --EnOreg (talk) 05:55, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Default setting: show or hide access date?

After Happy‑melon's CSS-ification of the access date it is up to the users whether they want to see the access date of stable references or not—that's great. (Note that this only applies to references that also have a publication date!)

Changing the default behavior, however, requires fiddling with the user's monobook.css which only expert users will be competent to do. Now after the discussion above it seems to me that the access date is relevant mostly to these expert users and editors. For casual WP users showing two different dates for one reference is confusing and clutters the reference sections—but they don't know how to hide it. Therefore, I would suggest to hide the access date of stable references per default, i.e., modify MediaWiki:Common.css accordingly. Comments? --EnOreg (talk) 00:12, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest not hiding it by default for web references, since such a source can change with time. It's important to document when the page was visited, in case content changes or becomes unavailable. This remains true even if the page has a known publication date.--Srleffler (talk) 02:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Right, this question has been discussed in the previous sections. Three points:
  1. Most web references don't have a publication date, hence hiding the access date doesn't apply to them. This discussion is only about sources that don't change after publication.
  2. I would argue that chasing broken links can safely be left to slightly experienced editors in the interest of not confusing readers with two different dates.
  3. Could someone explain again why we wouldn't find the original content under the publication date?
Thanks, --EnOreg (talk) 03:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the true source should always be given, even if that is a Web source that purports to be a true copy of a print publication. In that case, the access date should be specified and should not be hidden by default, because it is part of the correct reference. I suppose it occasionally happens that the editor has actually read the print version and is merely adding the URL for the convenience of the reader; in that case, I suppose a case could be made for omitting the access date. --Boson (talk) 06:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Quite often; many weblinks are for the reader's convenience. Commenting out the access date would be a reasonable compromise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm definitely in favor of hiding the access date by default for stable references. The extra visual clutter and possible confusion of having two dates on cites affects many, while the need to track down and inspect cites by access dates affects only a few (and they'll still be able to do it by looking at the article source or changing the default setting). Wasted Time R (talk) 18:52, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Can this thread be archived now?

Any objection? ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 01:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay. We could keep a permanent link from there to the archive, though, as this topic keeps coming up. --EnOreg (talk) 11:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Poll on date autoformatting and linking

People may be interested to know that the Poll on date autoformatting and linking is now open. All users are invited to participate. Lightmouse (talk) 17:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

New section on over-referencing added

There seems to be general agreement that the number of references should be kept to a reasonable number, so I went ahead and added the following section to "Dealing with citation problems":

Over-referencing

In some cases, more than one reference may be necessary to support a fact. This can be because the claim is particularly controversial, because links can go dead (as described above), because the superior source is not available online, or because the claim itself is one of wide external coverage of a fact. Excessive referencing should nevertheless be avoided, as this can impede readability, complicate editing, and slow down article load time. If an article contains too many references, feel free to remove some of these, but take care that no essential information is lost.
Lampman (talk) 02:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I really do not think that this is the correct page for such a statement. Yes, it's stupid to list a dozen nearly identical refs for the same non-controversial fact. But this issue belongs at WP:V, not here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Why is that? The way I see it, WP:V is about the theoretical aspect of verifiability, while this page deals with the practical aspect of citing sources. Lampman (talk) 02:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Because WP:V deals with whether, when, and how to select sources. "How many sources to select" is a clearly related to whether (is zero sources an acceptable number of sources for a statement?) and source selection (one good source is better than two weak ones). This page is primarily about "How to write and format the citation".
BTW, your 'reversion because there was no consensus to remove it' is silly. There was no consensus to add it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
There is a huge difference between "zero or one source" and "one or seven sources". The first is a question of WP:V, the second is a question of formatting, as it affects layout, load time etc., as I've explained.
I think the above discussion constituted consensus; there was really only one dissenting voice, and that was someone who didn't seem to understand the issue. There have also been plenty of other discussion of the same issue, all arriving at the same conclusion. It seems to me you're playing the system by asking for a wider consensus, as this is almost impossible in a forum with as low participation as this one. I'd be happy to put it under a straw poll though:

Should the above section be included in the guidelines?

  1. Support per reasons explained above. Lampman (talk) 23:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
  2. Oppose I'm unconvinced that the claimed problems really amount to much. I'm also unconvinced that, if they are real problems, this guideline is the place to address them. The problems being addressed are that overciting is said to
  • impede readability (This sounds like a WP:MOS issue to me. Also, there has been some past discussion of technical approaches to address this by hiding css classes reference and/or references either by monobook.css entries or via some more dynamic means.)
  • complicate editing (Yes, and there have been several proposals to address this with changes to cite.php, some of which were entered in WP:Bugzilla complete with code necessary (at the time) for implementation. None of these have made it to a cite.php release. Message me on my talk page if interested in more info.)
  • slow down article load time (Not significantly is my guess, unless the footnotes use templates which impact load time significantly.)
I also do not think that this belongs in the WP:V, which is the Wikipedia core content policy regarding verifiability, and should not defocus from that. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 02:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Rather than holding a "straw poll", why don't you just move the text to WP:V, where it probably belongs (and where more editors are likely to read it, thus making it more likely to improve Wikipedia)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I just wanted to follow up on this: I still object to the inclusion of this information on this page. Do you object to adding it to WP:V? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, I explained above why I think it belongs here and not on WP:V. To me the suggestion to move it to WP:V seems like just another instance of gaming the system; WP:V is a policy page, not a guideline page, so any inclusion there will meet with infinitely much more scrutiny. That way a much needed and highly agreed upon guideline will be caught up endlessly in wiki-lawyering limbo, instead of simply being agreed upon here. Lampman (talk) 04:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be its own page, then. I really do not believe that it fits in this page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
  1. Oppose This is not something that should be dictated by a guideline. This is a matter that should be left up to the editors of that particular article. Some topics require extensive sourcing. Some do not. It requires a great deal of subject-specific knowledge to know the difference. There are a large number of considerations that come into play. I particularly object to the last sentence, which has the potential to harm to articles and accidentally delete the result careful research and hard work. This is WP:CREEP at its worst. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 06:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
With no reply I'm killing this section in a few days. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 08:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Killing this section tonight. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 16:25, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Repetition

The article is too long to be useful. I'm particularly bothered by the repetition between WP:CITE#Quick summary, the first list in WP:CITE#How present citations and the second list in WP:CITE#How to present citations. Do we need all three of these? ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 09:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Are you aware that much of what you dislike was evicted from WP:LAYOUT, and needs to be presented in a style guideline somewhere? I'm sure that it's been a long time since you or I looked up the most common ways of doing these things, but new editors seem to appreciate it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I only object to the repetition. For example, "general references" are described four times in the article. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 11:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Specifically, "general references" are described in WP:CITE#General reference summary, in WP:CITE#General references and in WP:CITE#Presenting the citation twice—within inches of each other. The last one is the most egregious, in my opinion. I have two specific suggestions:
(1) I would rewrite and radically shorten the second list under WP:CITE#Presenting the citation. I'm not sure what the second list is trying to say, except that there are exceptions to every rule and my goodness exceptions can be complicated. I think that this point is a waste of the reader's attention. This section should summarize the material below and aid the reader in navigation, not act as a catch-all for esoterica. Specifically, I would replace this list with this short paragraph:
"Some articles use a combination of general references, citations in footnotes, and shortened notes. (See, for example, Starship Troopers, Rosa Parks or Absinthe) Some articles use separate sections for citations and explanatory notes (e.g. Augustus).
(2) I wouldn't mention general references in the quick summary, which need only describe the most common method.
That's my concrete suggestion ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 17:15, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Saying where I got it

I'm in two (or even three) minds about how far to take the idea of "saying where I got it", particularly when I have used Google Books to find a source. I don't usually link to the Google Books page if I have an ISBN, as I prefer to let readers use the ISBN link to choose where to look up the source rather than push them in one direction, but by the letter of this guideline it looks like I should. Is it really necessary to say where I got it when it came from a source that is widely accepted to provide reliable copies of the original? I don't think I had read this guideline before now, but I just did so to look for guidance on how to cite a journal article reprinted in a book. By trying to follow the guideline I came up with this citation:

Smith, Malcolm (1999). "From Bean-counter to Action Hero: Changing the Image of the Accountant". Management Accounting (UK). 77 (1): 28–30. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) reprinted in Smith, Malcolm (2003). Research methods in accounting. SAGE. p. 202. ISBN 9780761971474. Retrieved 2009-03-27.

Is it really necessary to do all of that "saying where I got it"? Can't I just make the citation to Management Accounting on the assumption a book published by SAGE and displayed by Google Books is a reliable copy of the original source? Phil Bridger (talk) 22:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You should give the ISBN unless you have a good reason to think that the scanned book is likely to be materially different from the print version of exactly the same edition of the book. The fact that you access the book electronically does not change its contents.
To give an example of something you might cite the specific copy for: If there's a famous handwritten comment in the margin, or if you're citing it for a rubberstamp that the university library put in the specific copy that happened to get scanned. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the way you've cited the article above is the right way to do it. A strong reason to present the reference in the way that you did is that readers may find it easier to access the book than the original article. If you are able to provide an online link for the work that you actually located the material in, this will make the work even more accessible. (Although in this case the Google Books link may not be particularly helpful – when I clicked on it I got a "Restricted page" error message.) — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 07:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I think it is better to place the link to the page number rather than the title:"Smith, Malcolm (1999). "From Bean-counter to Action Hero: Changing the Image of the Accountant". Management Accounting (UK). 77 (1): 28–30. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) reprinted in Smith, Malcolm (2003). Research methods in accounting. SAGE. ISBN 9780761971474. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help) p. 202", because then if several different pages are referenced the citation can be turned into a short footnote and each different page links to a specific page in a book. BTW I don't usually use citation templates so I don't know how to link pages to URLs inside the template -- perhaps someone else can tell us how to do it. Also you can strip the search string out of the URL as it is not needed to link to the page in this case all of this: "&dq=%22lion+tamer%22+%22monty+python%22+accountant&num=100&client=firefox-a&output=html". One you have done that it is easy to reference any other page in the book. Just scroll down one page to p. 203 and the format is clear you can add any page to the new addition to the URL "#PPA203" by changing the "203" to the desired page number. --PBS (talk) 10:18, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
You add |url=www.whatever.com/etc to the template. More pointfully, the URL is redundant with the ISBN magic word, which (1) can be configured to go to your personal favorite source of books and (2) if unconfigured, provides the reader with dozens and dozens of ways to get a copy of the book (online and offline). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
This guideline would seem to suggest that I should link to Google books if I haven't read a hard copy of the book: "unless you look at the book yourself to check that the information is there, your source is really the Web page, which is what you must cite". I agree that the Google Books link is redundant with the ISBN link, and my preference would be not make it, but this guideline as currently worded says that I should. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
No (and perhaps we need to explain that better): That section is trying to say this:
If you read joesblog.com, and Joe says that Great New Book says that the moon is made of green cheese, then you need to cite joesblog.com, not Great New Book, because Joe might lying about what the book says.
Reading an apparently authentic scanned copy of the book is not materially different from reading an apparently authentic print copy of the same book. Google Books is just about as likely to have a fake book in their archives as the local library is likely to have a forged book on their shelves: It might happen, but it's really, really, really unlikely. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
And we cite the book, not the library or bookstore which presented it. A link to an online copy is for convenience, not citation. -- SEWilco (talk) 18:13, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Collapsible reference lists

How can I implement a collapsible reference table, such as here. Thank you. ---AltruismT a l k - Contribs. 13:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Answer: You don't. It's a violation of WP:ACCESS. It also doesn't work on all browsers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
In your example the problem is not collapsing the reference list, but making sure that the single reference gets a single place in that list. You should used named references for that. See for example reference 7 in Utrecht (city). Arnoutf (talk) 17:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot to both WhatamIdoing & Arnoutf for your responses. -AltruismT a l k - Contribs. 10:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Question on using wiki articles from other languages

Is it alright to use it as a reference? I recall reading somewhere from the rules that it's not allowed? Ominae (talk) 04:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

No, for the same reason you can't cite the English Wikipedia: you don't know who wrote it and if they know they what they are talking about. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 08:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
No, Wikipedia articles themselves should not be used as references. But there may be reliable sources referred to in those articles that you can copy and use in your article: see "Wikipedia:Verifiability#Wikipedia and sources that mirror Wikipedia". — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 08:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
To use the sources from the other article, you would need to go and get those sources and check them yourself before you cited them. See WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. You need to be certain that the material you need actually comes from those sources. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 09:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 09:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
It's a little more complicated, and less stringent than that. There is nothing wrong with just taking text from another wiki and translating it. For GFDL purposes and common sense, the thing to do then is to use an interwiki translation template if you translate most of an article. See Category:Interwiki translation templates There is no dire need to check sources in the other article yourself, although of course it is very good practice, as WP:AGF is usually appropriate, just as it would be if one took text and supporting sources from another English article. On the other hand, what you write is always subject to verification of challenged items and English wiki rules.John Z (talk) 10:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Based on the Tokusatsu article, the Foreign productions as tokusatsu subsection uses the Japanese Tokusatsu wikipedia page as a reference. When I checked it, there was no reference whatsoever there. Please advise. Ominae (talk) 00:55, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

If I can summarize what Charles, John and I are saying, there is nothing wrong with doing a translation of the text of a non-English Wikipedia article and using that as the basis for an English article. Ideally, you should check the references in the non-English article to make sure that they really say what you think they say, but as John points out it may be acceptable to assume good faith and take it that the editor who worked on the non-English article got it right. However, if the non-English article has inadequate references, then your English article will also be inadequately referenced and may fall afoul of "Wikipedia:Citing sources" and "Wikipedia:Verifiability". Finally, it would not be appropriate to mention the non-English article itself as a reference in the English article. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 07:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Don't these language translation templates used in the main articles run afoul of WP:SELFREF? I ask because someone recently asked me to remove over 21,000 lines inserted by an editor "Based on an article in the French Wikipedia"? My thoughts on this are that these mentions really belong on the talk page (in banner form using {{translated}}, for example). –xeno (talk) 15:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Could you explain what you mean by "these language translation templates"? — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 19:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Category:Interwiki translation templates. –xeno (talk) 19:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I understand WP:SELFREF to be aimed at discouraging editors to cite other Wikipedia articles as references. Therefore, a statement like "Based on an article in the French Wikipedia ..." in either the main text or a footnote of an article is definitely a no-no, and indicates that the information in question is inadequately referenced. I also tend to agree with you that interwiki translation templates are probably best confined to article talk pages. I would point out, though, that following a TfD, {{1911 talk}} was deleted in favour of {{1911}} which is supposed to be placed on article pages. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 19:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but presumably we would say that Enc. Brit. is a reliable source. Wikis, by their very nature, are not. –xeno (talk) 17:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Citing partial transcriptions

I've transcribed part of a public domain U.S. Interstate Commerce Commission report at Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/ICC valuations/Chesapeake and Ohio Railway of Indiana, and am citing the report in an article. I know that I can simply cite it without a link, but would it be appropriate to link to that transcription? If so, should it be an internal or external link? --NE2 20:26, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

In my view your transcript is not a published source, and therefore should not be used as reference. I do think this is a borderline case though. Arnoutf (talk) 19:30, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
It's not being used as a reference; the ICC valuation report is. This would be a convenience link, like a link to [1]. --NE2 22:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Add Parenthetical referencing (Harvard)?

The section Citation styles names some reference styles like APA style. Could we add Parenthetical (a.k.a. Harvard) referencing? The list is limited, isn't it? -DePiep (talk) 11:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Many styles use parenthetical referencing in the body text (among others APA). The section you are referring to is more about the information that should be given in the reference list. There is also a section about in text references a bit lower [includes parenthetical refs] Arnoutf (talk) 20:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

"ISBN Number"

The use of "ISBN Number" is an incident of RAS syndrome. 173.72.137.7 (talk) 11:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

 Fixed ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 20:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Citations in tables

There's a small debate going on at Talk:Canadian Forces casualties in Afghanistan#References column removed? about how to format citations in the table/list of casualties. The guidelines seem very clear on what is expected in terms of metadata, however, they seem a little unclear on the idea of footnote tags being in their own dedicated column of the table, as opposed to within the text. Could someone perhaps drop in and clarify what's possible? Cheers. --Miesianiacal (talk) 12:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Avoid citing Wikipedia

I have removed the following passage:

  1. Direct reference: Explicit reference in prose with internal link, particularly for notable law or other declaration/edicts of sorts ("In Brown v. Board of Education...").

One can argue that just the citation Brown v. Board of Education would be good enough in an article, but it makes a poor example for the Citing sources guideline. It is a poor example because it appears to cite a Wikipedia article, rather than a reliable source, and it cites a court case by a popular name. A handful of court cases are famous enough for the general reader to find them by their popular name, but most cases can't be found by a non-lawyer if given only the popular name. The guideline should not give advise that only works in a handful of situations.

The bullet point is also faulty in that a reference in running text may be used whether or not an internal link is included: "Gibson's Neuromancer (Ace, 1984) was a science fiction article that featured direct interfaces between brains and computers" is an acceptable citation even without an internal link to either William Gibson or Neuromancer. --Jc3s5h (talk) 16:40, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 17:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Citations are why Wikipedia SUCKS!

Seriously, some people don't beleive everything they hear, and would love to contribute what they discovered themselves. Think about this, how did Albert Einstein know about E=MC^2 if nobody told him it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.193.252 (talk) 00:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

When Einstein discovered E=MC2 he published his results in a journal, not an encyclopedia, because publishing new results is not what encyclopedias are for. --Jc3s5h (talk) 00:34, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, true. Just make sure the more trivial topics be left alone. For example, pages about computers are fine listing facts such as color palette, resolution, ect, but rating the cpu's speed isn't a good, since benchmarking can be easily scewed towards the benchmarker's favorite cpu to make his cpu look better than it really is. It doesn't have anything at all to do with how "professional" the website looks.
For example, a little while ago I read some pages called "DTACK pages" or something like that, that compared the 68000 to cheaper cpus such as the 6502 and 6809, and whoever wrote that, obviously didn't even look through the 6502 and 6809 instruction sets before he started comparing the 68000 with them, and pretty much every code tested there was simply ported to the 6502 and 6809 from the 68000.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources/Archive_26&oldid=288426877"