Talk:Church Educational System Honor Code

	Church Educational System Honor Code is part of WikiProject Brigham Young University, an attempt to write quality articles about Brigham Young University. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.Brigham Young UniversityWikipedia:WikiProject Brigham Young UniversityTemplate:WikiProject Brigham Young UniversityBrigham Young University
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Other campuses

The BYU campuses in Idaho and Hawaii also have this honor code. It may be appropriate for some portions of this article to be rewritten to be not quite so Provo-centric or at least to address the other campuses. For example, regional variations such as the BYU-H issue of kava can be noted. Alanraywiki (talk) 05:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cheating

The cheating section needs citation from a reliable sources, collegehumor.com non-scientific poll does not qualify.Schnarr 04:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a better source, add it. Otherwise, we'll use the best we've got. Wrad (talk) 05:16, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Southern Virginia University

I noticed an anonymous editor has added a mention of Southern Virginia University into this article. I thought about simply removing the reference, but on second thought decided to keep it since SVU's honor code is likely based on or is at least very similar to the honor codes used at the CES Schools, so the mention is relevant to this article. I reworded the sentence to make it clear that although SVU holds LDS standards, it is not an "LDS school" since that implies the LDS Church owns the school or is affiliated with it in some way, of which neither is true. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:46, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I moved it to the history section, since UTSA also has a similar honor code; and it does not belong in the lead since it is tangentially related to this article. --Eustress (talk) 00:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense, especially with the mention of UTSA. I was not aware of the UTSA Honor Code. Good find! --JonRidinger (talk) 03:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Soulforce

Soulforce has criticized BYU's honor code, saying it is discriminatory against LGBT students at BYU. LGBT students at BYU have in turn complained that Soulforce does not represent LGBT students at BYU. The fact that LGBT students have made that complaint was deleted from the article, with the argument that Soulforce didn't claim to represent LGBT students at BYU. I disagree. According to the website, Soulforce claims to fight for the freedom of LGBT people. I think it is very relevant that some LGBT people do not think they are doing a good job fighting for their rights. But what I think really doesn't matter and amounts to original research. We are supposed to report what is being said, not what we think should be said. Whether a Wikipedia editor believes the complaint is a valid complaint or not, it is a complaint that was covered in news. If Soulforce had made some statement in response to the accusation, then such a statement would appropriate to include in this article. However, the original accusation should remain. Joshuajohanson (talk) 21:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the end, this article isn't about the debate whether Soulforce or any like group represents all LGBT people, but is instead about the BYU Honor Code. The article mentioned how the section of the Honor Code dealing with homosexuality was criticized by many gay advocacy groups, including Soulforce. Any controversy about whether Soulforce is a valid representative of LGBT students at BYU would belong in the Soulforce article, not here. It's not that the statements you refer to aren't notable or important, but for this article, they aren't really relevant. The statement in this article about Soulforce is only to verify that some gay advocacy groups did criticize BYU's policies. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is relevant because the reader should be aware that not all gay BYU students agree with statements by these gay advocacy groups. If I reworded it to say "Some gay students at have defended the BYU honor code, saying allegations by these gay advocacy groups do not represent actual students dealing with homosexuality on campus." That keeps the focus on the Honor Code. Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the article doesn't imply that all gay students share these views since it attributes them to the groups that made them. Again, I think the main point is that the policy was criticized by outside groups, identified as "civil rights groups, including Soulforce." If you want to show some dissent in terms of other LGBT students, that would go near the beginning of the paragraph where it mentions the LGBT students who criticized the Honor Code's wording. For instance, you could say in the second sentence: "While many LGBT students at BYU have defended the honor code (add source to that statement), others thought that the previous wording was confusing and unclear." Your points are important, but in this article are far more tangential than supplemental. I think they should be included (if sourced) in the articles about those specific groups. --JonRidinger (talk) 00:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They had problems with the previous wording, not the current wording. Soulforce has made an accusation that BYU discriminates against gays. They claim to be acting for the freedom of LGBT people. Then gays at BYU got offended and said that Soulforce doesn't speak for gay students at BYU. The response was a rebuttal to the accusation of Soulforce, which I think is appropriate for this article. The Honor Code had already been changed by then. Joshuajohanson (talk) 01:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]