Help talk:Cite errors/Archive 1

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Link the messages to the help

The error messages would be of more help if they linked to the help page:

Current

.

Proposal

.

--—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:03, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Personally I like this idea. ·Add§hore· ^{Talk To Me!} 09:56, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Y Done. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:54, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Problems

A few problems:

This works:

<ref name="123">foo</ref>

But not this:

<ref name=foo1/>

The cite error also does not show where the <references /> tag is missing; see Abbey Green ward.

Any ideas? --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:31, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I have tried a few different fixes and none have worked. My SWAG is that cite.php is not allowing links in errors that appear in the references section. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:57, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Redirect the message talk pages here

Propose redirecting the talk pages for all of the messages here, giving a central point of discussion. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 02:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Do it, sounds like a good idea to me. Don't forget to plop {{central}} here as a reminder. Happy‑melon 08:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Y Done. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Excellent upgrade. Let's hope folks actually click on the link! – ukexpat (talk) 15:58, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Talk pages

I say we don't need talk pages here. But specifically only talk pages. If that's possible technically I'd propose to remove them from this category. Debresser (talk) 10:11, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references was updated on 7 Feb. If you check the individual talk pages you will see that they are no longer in Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references. The job queue is so backed up right now that talk pages are still appearing and disappearing regularly. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

So that's why it went down from over 7000 to almost 4000 at the present moment. And I was hoping it had something to do with a few templates I fixed. Fine, so I'll just wait a while and then will start working on them. Nice to now that other people thought the same thing as I did. Debresser (talk) 12:24, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

The discussion is in the archive above, since it occurred before I centralized the talk pages here. Fixing those templates needed to be done, and it certainly helped. According to Special:Statistics, the job queue is just under 1.5 million; I don't know what that translates to exactly, but we are probably looking at weeks. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the good word. Debresser (talk) 18:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

In short: I think we need "Article", "Template" and "Category" namespace, preferably also "Help" and even "Image" namespace, "but not "Talk", "Wikipedia" and "User" namespace. Other namespaces I dont care either way. Debresser (talk) 14:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Where are the so-called "broken references?"

I've been working on a lot of railroad station articles, and I notices that they've got a lot of notes for broken reference tags, but I can never find out which references are broken. The articles include Patchogue (LIRR station) and many of the Amtrak stations in Florida. Why can't I ever find them in order to fix them? ----DanTD (talk) 04:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

For Patchogue_(LIRR_station), the problem is that there is a ref in the "External links" section, which comes after the references section. Anomie⚔ 04:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't post the link that way, but it didn't create a problem until recently. I'd love to be able to split the link for both sections, but the way it's set up now, I don't think I could. ----DanTD (talk) 04:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Why do you need it in the External links section when it is already used as a reference? (number four if you didn't notice) --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I know that, but as I said, I didn't add the reference to that link. I could probably remove that one. As for the Florida and other Amtrak stations, should I post them individually? ----DanTD (talk) 12:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not so much "it didn't create a problem until recently" as "the problem did not generate an error message until recently". The ref itself was always broken. Anomie⚔ 12:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

If you can't figure out why an article shows an error or how to fix it, then you can certainly list specific articles here for advice. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:35, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, here are the ones just for Florida; Jacksonville (Amtrak station), Palatka (Amtrak station), DeLand (Amtrak station), Winter Park (Amtrak station), Orlando (Amtrak station), Kissimmee (Amtrak station), Winter Haven (Amtrak station), Sebring (Amtrak station), Delray Beach (Amtrak station), Deerfield Beach Seaboard Air Line Railway Station, Fort Lauderdale (Amtrak station), Tri-Rail and Metrorail transfer station (Miami). Mostly east coast station articles. Outside of Florida, you've got Savannah (Amtrak station), and some South and North Carolina ones, I'll have to check on exactly which ones. ----DanTD (talk) 14:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

What these articles have in common is {{Silver Meteor}}. I started a discussion at Template talk:Silver Meteor. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:11, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

Bot Help

The Cat is now being scanned by my bot, It will try to slowly trawl through the articles and help by adding reference sections where and when it can. ·Add§hore· ^{Talk To Me!} 09:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

That is great. In my experience with this category, there are 2 big groups here:

1. new articles that do not have a reflist yet
2. vandalism (including the occasional honest mistake).

Fixing the latter just by adding reflist would be a waste of the change to reveal the vandalism here. Debresser (talk) 17:21, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I do 10-20 every day, but there is always a lot more new articles. Perhaps we should get together with some people together and do it together? Debresser (talk) 19:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree there are allot more new articles now, I only run my bot when I see the cat get into the thousands. I would love to help out manually but I have no time currently. ·Add§hore· ^{Talk To Me!} 07:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The bot is obviously most apt to work if there's a series of alike articles making trouble. Debresser (talk) 10:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Broken refs in templates/infoboxes/etc.

The help page clearly says what to do in such a case:

To suppress the error on the template page itself, wrap the reference in <includeonly></includeonly>.

Actually there is another obvious way. Adding {{reflist}} or <references/> inside <noinclude></noinclude>.

I have done so successfully in War on Terrorism/campaignbox. This method has a few advantages to the method mentioned in the help page:

1. it has to be done only once, not for each reference separately
2. it shows the references on the template page itself and thereby allows for checking the citations at their source (for broken references, missing details, layout)
3. it is done at the end of the template and is therefore easy to spot

n.b. The <noinclude> tag should be put right behind the end of the template/infobox/etc. without a break or even space, in order to avoid whitelines on the page the template is transluded upon.

In view of these advantages I would suggest to change the text of the help page to read:

To suppress the error on the template page itself, add a reference section to the template inside <noinclude></noinclude> tags.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Debresser (talk • contribs) 22:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I have added three different methods with some of the pros and cons. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:23, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I was asked by Debresser to come here and comment. I don't know much about the reference tag system, but I know a lot about noincludes and template coding, so I took a look:

As is partly explained above in section Talk pages the missing references error message has been updated so it does almost nothing (doesn't show any warning and doesn't add the Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references) when this happens outside main (article) space. I checked the code of the error message MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references and I tested it, the code works correctly. That is, if I place a <ref>test</ref> tag on a new article but no <references/> tag, I get an error message. But if I try the same on a new template page I get no error message. This change was made on 31 January and 7 February. However, the hidden Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting is still added. This seems to be done in a deeper level of MediaWiki, thus can not be fixed by a code change in MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references. (However, it seems we can fix it by modifying {{broken ref}}, but that needs some more investigation and discussion.)

So for now, either you can simply ignore Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting on the template pages since it is hidden, so most editors don't see it anyway. Or if you want to get rid of that too then you still need to fix that in the templates that use the ref tags. Then here's what I think is the best method:

Using <noinclude></noinclude> or <includeonly></includeonly> tags for that is a bad solution. Since that only solves it on the template page itself. When the template is shown/demonstrated on talk pages and "Wikipedia:" pages it will still add Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting. So instead I recommend you do like we nowadays do to make templates only categorise in main (article) space:

{{main other
| <ref>test</ref>
| <!-- Don't use the ref tag when not in main (article) space. -->
}}

Or more compact (but less clear, if the contents in the ref tag is long):

{{main other|<ref>test</ref>}}

You can learn more about {{main other}} on its documentation page.

I leave it to you guys to update the explanation here at Help:Cite errors#Other problems.

--David Göthberg (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

There are two different ways of resolving this error

1. We can fix a template so that the error does not show on the template page, but still has the potential for generating an error in the article where it is used. There are a few different methods to do this.
2. We can fix the template so that the reference and the reference list are both included in the template.

1 preferred method

Let's compare two related templates: {{Annotated image/Euplectella}} and {{Annotated image/Porifera body structures}}. Both templates and their doc pages were in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting. I fixed the Euplectella template by including {{reflist}} on the doc page. If the Euplectella template is used in an article that does not include the <references /> tag, then the Cite error will be generated.

As noted, there are other ways to do this, but I consider this the preferred method for a type 1 fix, because it shows the reference in the template, thus making it obvious that there is a reference. Allowing editors to see the reference and to verify it is a plus.

2

Now, let's look a template that uses method 2:

{{Infobox
|bodystyle = width:20em;
|labelstyle = width:33%;
|title   = Sample infobox
|label1  = Label1
|data1   = Data1<ref group=note>This is the reference section</ref>
|label2  = Label1
|data2   = Data2
|label3  = Label3
|data3   = Data3
|label4  = Label4
|data4   = Data4
|below   = {{reflist|group=note}}
}}

Sample infobox

Label1	Data1
Label1	Data2
Label3	Data3
Label4	Data4

This method keeps everything within the template and does not rely on the article to have a <references /> tag.

Which is the best way?

I'm going to leave that to the concerned template editors. #1 keeps the reference in the main article reference list, where #2 puts the reference within the template. #1 relies on the article to have the <references /> tag, where #2 includes it in the template.

As to the use of {{main other}}: yes this will work to keep the error off of the template, but does nothing to keep the error off of the article page. It suppresses the reference display on the template page an makes it difficult to verify. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

If an infobox has its predefined references, independent of the page it will be transcluded onto, it might be usefull to include them in the template (your second method). But in general I would prefer to have references at the end of the article the template is transcluded onto (your first method). This is not something for guidelines or general solutions, but more a matter of personal taste. It probably has to do with the fact that I like the <noinclude>{{reflist}}</noinclude> best.Debresser (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

And that is certainly a valid way to do it, if there is no doc page. It might be better to create a doc page— that way it is more clear that the reference list is not part of the template. It might be a good idea to create a {{template reflist}} that would have some boilerplate explanation and include the <references /> tag. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

And that seemed like such a good idea that I created {{template reflist}}— it works on a template page or the doc page. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:29, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Very nice. :) Debresser (talk) 21:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm going to review all of this and rework the relevant section. Tomorrow. My head hurts after helping someone rewrite a template that included a dozen references. I found either a bug or a feature. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

OK: I reworked the template section: please review and comment. I also tweaked {{template reflist}} with a message box. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:20, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I put back the 2 others you deleted. I see no reason to decide these two are any better than they are. I for one would not agree. Debresser (talk) 17:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually I put back only one. The method wrapping every reference in include tags has only cons.

I would really like to know the difference between 1 and 3. What do you say? Debresser (talk) 17:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I did some tests. I knew it, I knew it! Number 1 doesn't work. It makes the references appear twice. I knew my solution 3 was the best. Debresser (talk) 17:31, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I'll wait for you to dublicate the tests and then we'll have to update the help page. Debresser (talk) 17:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The only difference between 1` and 3 is the use of a template instead of manually adding the code. Where were you testing this? I don't see any problem in {{Infobox N.J. Cabinet}} for example. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

If the article into which the template is included has a reference tag also - and which article doesn't - you get the references twice. Because of this adding the references tag to the template without the noinclude tags is a severe pain in the posterior for the writers of articles. Debresser (talk) 17:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah. I think I need to make this more clear. If you use {{template reflist}} directly in the template, then it must be between <noinclude>...</noinclude> tags at the end of the template. If there is a doc page, then just add {{template reflist}} in an appropriate spot on the page. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:04, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

So that was my solution. Then please don't edit the text in the help page. It is fine as it was. Debresser (talk) 18:22, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

OK. Since we are not going to use {{template reflist}}, then I will remove it from the templates where I have used it and delete it. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The idea was nice, but the actual gain is very small since the user will still have to type the <noinclude>...</noinclude> himself. It misses the {{clear}} BTW. Debresser (talk) 18:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

{{clear}} was in there as <div style="clear:both"/>; I try not to transclude simple templates within another tmeplate. I liked the notice, but I'll kill it after lunch. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not familiar with programming, but I consider it sloppy from me that I didn't notice this. Debresser (talk) 19:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

It's gone. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

References

This template includes the following citations

Cite error: <ref> tags exist, but no <references /> tag was found

This is probably the message discussed most often on the Help Desk and other help pages. This message cannot handle links like the other messages; any wikilinks simply do not parse, thus disappear. We can update the message to somthing like:

Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a <references /> tag; see Help:Cite errors.

--—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Debresser (talk) 20:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

This is crazy... Template:Bug Happy‑melon 21:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Whenever cite.php is updated, we can fix the link. Until then, we will have to deal with this as it is. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:31, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I support the proposed text. Many new users who don't know <references/> or {{reflist}} in advance are not understanding the current message and don't know how to fix the page. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

 Done --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:59, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Google Maps?

Is it really worth mentioning that an extension that is still in beta does things (i.e. calls Parser::parse instead if Parser::recursiveTagParse) that break other, unrelated extensions? Anomie⚔ 02:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Looking at Special:Version, this extension is not installed on en.wikipedia. This might be fixed by the time is is installed. We should move this to a todo on the talk page so that we remember to test it if and when it is installed. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

References after {{reflist}}

Lately I've seen a few articles with Cite error: <ref> tags exist, but no <references /> tag was found, but:

1. They do have a <references /> tag in the proper section at the end of the article.
2. The reference immediately before the <references /> tag does have a closing </ref> tag.
3. There are no <ref>...</ref> tags after the <references /> tag.

It turned out they have a second <references /> tag somewhere earlier in the article, and there are references after that first <references /> tag. The fix is obviously to delete that first <references /> tag. Debresser (talk) 23:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

RE: Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting

Is there anyway that pages starting "Wikipedia" (i.e. project pages) can be automatically excluded from the category? I don't think any of them really "need" fixing and it's a drag clicking on and on to see if there are any pages starting "Wil.." and onwards. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 03:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Just add more letters to the end of the url. If you click on W then the url ends in from=W but you can manually change that to for example from=Wikiq (there are currently no pages after Wikipedia). PrimeHunter (talk) 09:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Cheers, I emptied out post Wikipedia yesterday. Is there anyway we can encourage other editors to do a "clean up drive" of some sort? With a few more helping hands this category could easily become more managable. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 14:13, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd say a Wikipedia page should also adhere to the same standards of editing as far as references are concerned. Talk pages might be an other story. As e.g. in Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references. In that category I fixed the Wikipedia namespace easily, but talk pages were removed from the system, see talk page. Debresser (talk) 20:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I was considering namespace detection. I would think that we would want user pages to show the errors since many drafts are written in user subpages. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't exclude anything. Debresser (talk) 21:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting. --Gadget850 (talk) 11:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)