Talk:Welsh syntax

What needs to be done

This article is still missing elements of Welsh syntax, including quantifiers, subordination (which I am not comfortable writing a section on), passives, and impersonals. I will be grateful to anyone who can write these sections or improve the existing sections. But more importantly, I think the syntax and morphology articles are so interdependent that readers will not be able to make sense of the information in them without hopping back and forth. The ways I've thought of fixing this would require duplicating syntax information in the morphology article and vice-versa, although maybe that's preferrable to the current situation. Thoughts? Strad (talk) 04:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Focus

As I understand from research, Welsh posseses a sentence structure that varies when a specific topic is to be stressed. I myself have trouble understanding how this work. It would be a nice idea to venture here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.114.72.184 (talk) 01:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Correction and suggestions

The example "y lywodraeth" of lenition of a feminine noun after the article is wrong. The consonants "ll" and "rh" do not take part in lenition when this is concerned with gender or after the predicative "yn". "The government" is "y llywodraeth".

It is suggested that the difference between "welon ni gi" and "welon ni ddim ci" is due to "ddim" blocking lenition. There is I think a much simpler explanation. "Dim" is an indefinite noun meaning "nothing", and can be used in genitive phrases - "dim ci" is a noun phrase meaning "nothing of a dog". Objects of inflected verbs require lenition, thus "welon ni gi" and also "welon ni ddim ci" - in the latter case, it is "dim" which receives lenition. This suggestion also explains forms like "Welon ni ddim o'r ci", or "welon ni mo'r ci" when the object is definite. A phrase like "tudalen y llyfr" can only mean "the page of the book". If we wish to say "a page of the book" the form "tudalen o'r llyfr" must be used. Since "dim" is always indefinite, "nothing of the dog" can only be expressed by "dim o'r ci", hence "welon ni ddim o'r ci", with the object lenition, usually abbreviated to "welon ni mo'r ci". Ian Stirk (talk) 12:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• It should be made clear that this article describes spoken Welsh (of a certain kind?) and that the examples, at least, will vary with the sort of Welsh spoken. At least, I'm not a speaker but I believe this is so. For example:
  • The preverbal particle is not found in formal Welsh as I understand it and it is not required in spoken Welsh. Where it is used, it may not be 'mi'. (And if it isn't used, of course, it won't cause mutation.)
    • "Rhoddais i lyfr da i dad Eleri ddoe." (3 mutations)
    • "Fe roddais i lyfr da i dad Eleri ddoe." (4 mutations)
• There's also "Buodd bws yn dod" although I do understand the temptation to omit this!
• "Welon ni gi?" means "Did we see a dog?". "We saw a dog" would be "Gwelon ni gi" or "Fe/Mi welon ni gi".
• "Diffoddwr dân" should be "diffoddwr tân" because "diffoddwr" is masculine. (I checked this in Cysgeir which also offers "taniwr" as an alternative. The BBC's online dictionary is likely to give the same results.)