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Tensor of a quaternion

Tensor of a quaternion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Contested prod. This is a POV fork of Classical Hamiltonian quaternions by a single purpose account and his sockpuppets. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Can we avoid an edit war? Abstain from voting For the love of god, can we keep this article to avoid an edit war? The point of view fork argument is not a very good one, because this article is also linked from the main article. I propose that Hobojaks and Koeplinger reach some sort of agreement, where each compromises? If we don't reach a consensus here, it will be a long time before we have one again.Caylays wrath (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sorry apparently having a voice of reason in these discussions is inappropriate, didn't understand that before, user name calays wrath is retired from this discussion, as is user name hobo jaks. From now on I will be making comments only under the name Hamiltons wrath (talk) 11:00, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and do not merge. Appears to me to be original research, making an obscure argument about semantics based on original sources that do not directly address the argument it makes (and cannot, because the argument seems to be about concepts that were deveoped after the sources it references), i.e. original synthesis. Also self-contradictory: 'Hamilton did not [...] define a tensor to be "a signless number" [...] Hamilton defined the new word tensor as a [...] signless number'. JulesH (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


*Abstain for now (Being a 19 century rhetorical device I can neither confirm or deny that I have already voted under a different user name) On condition that the meat puppet above does not have his vote counted I looked at his contribs, and he has never contributed to a mathematics article before. There is an entire section of my book Elements of Quaternions titled the tensor of a quaternion. That section alone is larger than the entire present article classical hamiltonian quaternions. Great material that was hoping that some of you mortals would discover at some point and add to the article. This was the original thinking of one of the original authors of the main article for which this was a long planned sub article. The article currently has some problems, but it is also contains the first efforts of our new quaternionist Septentrionalis as well as the first contributions of an administrator. I propose that we take Septentrionalis efforts as good faith efforts, and that we not destroy them because when an editors first attempt at something gets deleted they tend to get frustrated and not work on the subject any more. If you wanted to recruit a really good expert on this subject then I would suggest Tatarov, who was cruelly bitten the last time he attempted to contribute on the subject of quaternions. Tatarov posits in his pear reviewed published article that quaternions can indeed be used to formulate general relativity. This fact was recently vandalized out of the history article. To enlist his aid however Gentelmen I propose that we agree that he has permission to cite himself as a source. I by the way claim the same privilege.Hamiltons wrath (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)Switching this account to my voting one, sorry for any confusion.Hamiltons wrath (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


*Note Deleting this article will break an uneasy truce agreement. I will view it as an act of edit war. I view this third attempt delete this article as deliberate vandalism. Proposing to delete it is trolling. This ongoing vandalism is unacceptable, and is being conducted by people who have not read any of the reference material being discussed. Their intention is to keep Hamilton's point of view out of Wikipedia entirely. They are all meat pupits who have never really contributed. Remember that in order to achieve consensus, I agreed not to move all material in classical hamiltonian quaternions article into the main article. This continued harassment will in my view violate this agreement. Further discussion with you people is pointless.

  • Lets see a show of hands, how many people participating in this discussion have actually read Elements of Quaternions up to article 214? How many people have actually read Lectures of Quaternions. How many people have read even a basic decent book about quaternions from this time period? You are proposing to move material back into a main article in order to introduce gross factual errors.
  • Perhaps we should assume good faith on the part of Septentrionalis and let him have this obscure sand box like region and let him work on it, instead of introducing gross factual errors into a main article. Is that his purpose, do delete the the entire article a sentence at a time, and to introduce factual errors into the article? Why is he helping with an article he proposed to delete? If he really wants to contribute material we should give him the chance. I invite him to change his vote, in which case he could win an assumption of good faith, and help build consensus.
  • Remember when it used to say that tensors are positive numbers and when you add multiply or divide them you still get a positive number but when you subtract them sometimes you get a negative number called a scalar. If you are going to find some pretext to delete key statements from an article like this in a deliberate effort to destroy its logical consistency what is the point of even having an article? So much analysis has already been deleted from the article so as to take it completely out of context, which again I view as deliberate vandalism.
  • Go head, I don't really care, but after you dump the some of the idiotic content in this article into the other article, please cut the other article down to single a paragraph. Thats the goal here for most of you, keeping Hamilton's point of view off wikipedia. One last thing, everybody go back and read the consensus agreement that everyone agreed to about keeping the main article that this sub article belongs to. Didn't we all agree that Septentrionalis was a black hearted little troll? He enjoys making trouble. He will bring his same slash and burn tactics to the main article no doubt. The main article does not cite any inline sources, except for the ones that I put there. It is being run by people who are cool aid drinking believers in linear algebra, and is based on unreliable sources.
  • Go back to a pre-vandalized version of this article, and you will notice that I had long ago created a link to what was at the time an empty stub article, and had always intended to develop it further. I have some really good material to put in the article, just don't have time right now. Notice that Versor, Bi Quaternion and a lot of other good sub articles were started as branches off this original article, deleting this name space
  • Hamilton, Hardy and Tait are reliable sources, as this edit war developes people will have to start reading them, and maybe that is a good thing, because as they do they will start to see that every thing in this article is verifiable. I might be willing to change my vote to again achieve consensus, but this is really the last straw, if this article gets deleted it my be a long time before a consensus is reached again. So delete and declare war if you wish Gentalmen, you have sown the wind, you will reap the whirlwind. Hobo jaks is a retired user name no longer participating in this article. From now on I am Hamiltons WrathHamiltons wrath (talk) 10:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete both articles merge into main articleHobojaks (talk) 18:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly you are supporting the efforts of a contributor with questionable motives. He submitted the article classical hamiltonian quaternions for deletion, when he did not get his way, he deleted some good analysis which would be absolutely essential for any reader actually wanting to learn about Hamilton's approach to quaternions. You never addressed my second point, in my book Elements of quaternions I have a rather large section titled the tensor of a quaternion. There is a lot of really great material in there that should go in this article.Hamiltons wrath (talk) 15:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Classical Hamiltonian quaternions AfD was entered per anonymous request. The material is significant, by its historic influence alone. Personally, I like it as well and find it interesting; but in an edit dispute like the current, personal likings and interest become secondary here, and we must support the material through general significance. The Hamilton-centric view should fit perfectly into one article, which is why I don't think we need Tensor of a quaternion. I also believe that this perfectly positions the view as an "alternate". Not sure where your negativity comes from. If you want to change what the world thinks about quaternions, then the ball is in your court: You've got to prove it, which means work, publish, defend, etc. Looks like you've got the persistence and diligence to do so, and I hope that years of work (likely outside other activities that'll actually pay you money) will not be discouraging to you .... Koeplinger (talk) 00:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Correction: I am not using the term "fork" correctly, I meant more something of a counterposition. Anyway. Thanks, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 01:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the sock puppet rules, and not really sure they apply here. First of all there are users commenting in this discussion that feel they are being stalked from article to article, and I don't think that users who feel they need protect their identity because they are being stalked can be excluded from participating in these discussions. Second the sock puppet rules don't apply to users who present contradictory arguments, but rather to users that just say me to, in order to make it look like their side has more support. Third this rule does not apply to users who type arguments in first person using the name of historical figures as a rhetorical devise, especially if the have been using these names for a while.Caylays wrath (talk) 01:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After carefully reviewing the rules on sock puppets, which I still feel don't apply to users who feel they are being stalked from article to article by vicious vandalizing trolls, I am retiring user name hobojaks, and caylays wrath from this discussion. Sorry for any confusion, those participating in this discussion who are not meat puppets, drawn into the discussion are not confused. Give me a second to reflect the new user name with which I plan on voting in this discussionHamiltons wrath (talk) 10:35, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • It is forbidden to remove other people's comments from discussions, especially deletion discussion. If you disagree with them or feel they should be discounted, simply add a comment to that effect underneath. Only the administrator closing the discussion has the power to discount comments altogether. - Mgm|(talk) 10:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry for any confusion, from now on I am only using User name hamiltons wrath in this discussion. I need to strike out that argument if you will permit me?Hamiltons wrath (talk) 10:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As long as you can prove you are the same user, there's no problem. See your talk page for further information. Using your old account to perform the requested edits would be the easiest way to resolve this. - Mgm|(talk) 10:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hamiltons wrath is no longer a 19th century rhetorical device, but a voting participant, wikipedia is so technical, sorry for the confusion, please let me strike out content that might cause confusion, I can then long on to any accounts you need me to in order to provide what ever verification you wish.Hamiltons wrath (talk) 11:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • redirect classical hamiltonian quaternions to main article classical hamiltonian quaternions is being ruthlessly vandalized. Main article should not exclude Hamilton's point of view. An article should not exist to justify making a main article so point of view. In order to achieve a consensus in the discussion on deleting the article classical hamiltonian quaternions, it was agreed that we could actually have the article. This agreement was not honored. Instead it ended up that classical hamiltonian quaternions was an easy place for people to vandalize. Deleting this article is a symptom of this ongoing vandalism.Hamiltons wrath (talk) 11:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • You are correct that Classical Hamiltonian quaternions could be considered a fork from the main quaternion article. This is justifiable through its historical focus, which is narrower than today's textbook understanding, and also differs in several points. Capturing differences over time is notable in itself, and a fork is a well-suited editorial tool for this. Hamilton, Tait, and their peers are certainly notables originators, so I don't see the risk of deletion, either. The Tensor of a quaternion article, however, is misleading as it writes about Hamilton's view only, which makes the material perfectly suited for Classical Hamiltonian quaternions that's already there. Koeplinger (talk) 00:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • not an edit fork I was looking at the rules on that and I must point out that the basic structure of this article was planned out long before this latest spurt of vandalism started. There may be a problem with the content presently in the article, but not with the structure itself. For me deleting this article is going to feel pretty much like the last straw. I will take it as the sadly misguided efforts of one user, taken advantage of by someone with bad intent. So one Septentrionalis you could change your vote to keep, help a little to convince me that your intentions are not malicious.User:Koeplinger I think you are a great guy, but you are sadly misguided about excluding Hamilton's work from the main article. At one point I gave a little, so that we could all reach an agreement. Deleting this article would pretty much do it for me, I changed my vote last time to achieve consensus, now don't you think it might be your turn? Once consensus is lost, it is hard to get back, and it is going to seem to me, that this consensus was lost because people went back on their word. So it will be fooled me once shame on you, but once this article gets deleted, me agreeing to things that I don't really believe in order to get consensus, and it will be almost impossible to convince me that Septentrionalis is acting in good faith.Hamiltons wrath (talk) 16:00, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - this discussion needs to be extended. Quite interesting for us nerds. :-) Bearian (talk) 01:00, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 05:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There seems to be much controversy here. I recommend that we focus on finding sources for the introduction of the page, that is, the text: In mathematics, some thinkers believe there is a relationship between the norm of a quaternion and the tensor of a quaternion. Some writers define the norm of a quaternion as having the same formula as the tensor of a quaternion, while other writers define the norm of a quaternion as the square of the tensor. My response to this is "some thinkers/some writers"--who? If this is not sourceable, I would say to Delete this page as it would be original research. If it is sourceable, then I think the discussion should focus on whether there's enough material to justify its own page and keep or merge into the page discussed above. As it is, my gut tells me this is original research just by looking at how it is written. Cazort (talk) 16:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • note Technically Hamilton's book Elements of Quaterions is divided into different books, however the entire 11th section of Hamilton's second book is devoted to the subject of the tensors of vectors and quaternions.[[1]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.86.76.11 (talk) 20:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such thing as unsalvagable as for as deletion policy is concerned. "vagueness and pov" are not reasons for deletion. --neon white talk 08:04, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Neon white. How bad the article currently is is irrelevant to deletion. Wikipedia:ATD reads: "If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing, rather than deletion.". The discussion here should focus on whether this topic is notable. The link added by the anonymous author above does seem to point towards this being a notable topic. Are there other sources though? In particular, are there any sources justifying the remarks in the introductory paragraph? This seems to be key for me. Cazort (talk) 14:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Direction of Traffic Flow Most of the people coming to this article are going to be coming from the main article, wanting to learn more about Hamilton's notation. They will be coming from the main article section about the norm of a quaternion. So we need to have some really basic stuff, and introduce people gently to the point that a quaternion has a tensor.
  • Its notable Hamilton's thinking about tensors is notable, from not only a historical point of view, but very possible from other points of view as well. Tait wrote extensively on the subject of using quaternions to represent stresses and strains, before they really had the idea of a stress tensor. In a three dimensional solid, since there are different stretching factors in the different directions, you need more than one quaternion. See Tait An elementary treaties on quaternions[[2]] Perhaps just a little editing of the article might help to convince the skeptics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.86.76.24 (talk) 01:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Koeplinger. The article is riddled with original research / mistakes. The first paragraph sets up a controversy for which there are no sources. After stripping the original research, it comes down to "Hamilton and later 19th century mathematics defined the tensor of the quaternion q to be the quotient between the length of the transformed vector qv and the original vector v. This quantity is nowadays called the norm of the quaternion". I don't see why we need an article on that. It's enough to add this to Classical Hamiltonian quaternions#Tensor. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • question Thank you for your opinion,Jitse Niesen however I was wondering if you had carefully read the citations to the entire section of Elements of Quaternions dedicated to the rather involved subject of the tensor of a quaternion? Also have you had a look at Taits work on representing stresses and strains using quaternions before coming to this verdict? The present content of the article is not really relevant to this discussion. For people who claim to have read the material that should be included in this article, here is a test question, how did Hamilton and all the classical thinkers define the tensor of a quaterion. Here is a hint, its notable but not how it is done on the main article on the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.86.71.104 (talk) 18:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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