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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SlimVirgin (talk | contribs) at 16:31, 1 November 2005 (rv please don't add new material to the archive). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Sources that are defunct external sites

I've just happened across a discussion at User talk:Anubis1975, concerning what to do when a citation consists of an external link that's dead. Theo (whose views I usually respect) makes the claim: "Inactive links to reference sources should never be deleted". My first thought was that that couldn't be right, and then I saw who'd said it, so I went looking for guidance, but so far I've found no mention. If there is an official policy or guideline on this, could someone point me to it? If there isn't, would this be the right place to discuss it? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:45, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

As good a place to discuss it as any. My views:
  • First and foremost, this is relevant mainly for actual references, not for general external links, which are, of course, only useful if live.
  • If the citation was just a blind link, this is tough (yet one more reason for giving more explicit citations). The best recourse is to try to reproduce an equivalent link from the Internet Archive. I would always recommend trying that, although you will not always succeed.
  • If the link was merely a "convenience link" to an online copy of material that originally appeared in print, and if you are pretty certain that it is a permanently dead link, then it should be OK to drop the link but keep the citation. (On the other hand, if you are pretty certain that the same piece can be found elsewhere on line this becomes more like the next case…)
  • If it was a non-blind citation of web-only material, I'd usually try to poke around the site and see if I can find an equivalent page at a new location, or an indication that the whole site has moved, etc.
  • One other sometimes-useful tool is that you can often find recently deleted pages in Google's cache. They won't be there long, and it is no use linking to them, but this may let you find the content, which can be useful in finding the same page elsewhere on the Internet and linking to that.
In most cases, I've found, one of another of these approaches will actually leave you with a still acceptable citation. I would hope that nothing I've said above is controversial. The question is what to do if all of this fails.
  • My inclination is to keep the link (maybe in an HTML comment, and certainly explicitly marked as dead). Keep in mind that the Internet Archive deliberately lags by six months, so there is a fair chance that at any time in the next six months we might, again, be able to get an equivalent link from them.
  • If the link has been dead more than six months we get into trickier territory. I'd still be inclined to keep it as the record of a reference used, but I realize that there is a certain academic purism in my view on that.
-- Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I basically agree with Jmabel. If a link is dead and can't be replaced by something equivalent, note that. If possible, find a different source that can serve as a different reference for the same claim -- in many cases, this might be possible. I wouldn't remove the citation, or the claim in question, unless there's serious doubts as to the accuracy of the citation. Tuf-Kat 05:45, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for these responses. I should stress that, in the case that prompted the discussion, Theo replaced the link with one to the Internet Archive; it wasn't his action about which I was dubious, but the general policy. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

IMHO; If a link is "deleted" it still exists in the article history, which can be used for searching later. If an external link is the only place through which a "fact" can be verified, then the fact becomes unverifiable. It should be removed from the article and moved to the talk page if it might be important along side it, a comment about the broken link should be added. If, however, proper reference information has been kept (author / date / title / etc.) then it can be assumed that the link could be verified by finding the original author; in that case, it shouldn't be deleted. Mozzerati 10:41, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

  • This all should probably be part of the guideline on citing sources. What do people say to moving some of this (probably a briefer version) into the project page itself? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:41, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Unpublished footnotes

I have a problem with a source document with an annoted intext footnote, however the end footnotes remain unpublished or withheld. There is some controversy regarding the textural material, as to whether or not in can be attributed to one speaker alone.

My understanding is, in the absence of an unpublished footnote, the source document itself becomes the citation, and according to MLA style referenced here What do you do if your source doesn't list an author?, reads,

"you must first determine whether the author is anonymous, or whether the document was written by a corporation or committee."
"When making a reference to a corporate author within your own text, you are advised by the MLA Handbook to refer to the corporation in the body of your paragraphs and to avoid citing them in your parenthetical references.

Any assistance to resolving this controversy would be appreciated. nobs 19:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

proposed changes to cite sources - direct links == broken links / inotes

I plan to make the following changes to cite sources. Mozzerati 09:49, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

1) broken links

You can quickly insert inline references to web pages by inserting a URL surrounded by single square brackets...

should be rewritten as

It is possible to create inline references to web pages by inserting a URL surrounded by single square brackets. This is better than not referencing at all, however it is bad style and leads to broken links which are impossible to fix. Instead, at the very least name the link [http://example.com like this] (like this). It is better still to create a a more complete reference which will make it easy to search for the reference later if it moves.

Reasoning 1; I've been trying to update many documents with reasonable references. The number of broken links in wikipedia is huge and fixing them is often impossible (often it's not really clear why the link is there, especially since it's often to link to one particular POV). There is no excuse for not at least making it clear why you are putting a link in.

Reasoning 2; Direct numbered links do not give any context about what ; they are often followed by people who do not find what they hope to find. Mozzerati 09:49, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

2) inotes

However, don't over-reference, the article should in the end still be readible:...

at the end of this paragraph I intend to add the following.

in a situation where a reference might be useful for future verification, but is clearly not needed by readers of the article, an alternative method of invisible references can be considered. Since these are invisible to the normal readers of an article they don't influence readability, but wikipedia editors can access them easily. The system can be mixed with other referencing systems for more important sources. Mozzerati 09:49, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

comments?Mozzerati 09:49, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


Naming links is useful when the appear in the reference list. However, if I add a link after a statement, such as: Foobary recently said "such and such" [http://foobar.com/statement] then it is pretty clear what is referring to, and naming it isn't going to help much. I agree that it is much better to add a full citation at the end, but the guidelines already say this. (Regarding "over-referencing" see below.) —Steven G. Johnson 22:33, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
It's a perfect example. That should read recently [http://foobar.com/statement Foobary said "such and such"].
For a person reading on a screen reader this is much clearer; in editing it's less likely to get the link split from the text; it's now clear that it is a reference showing what he said, not that he changed his mind (previously he said "so and so" but only now has he started saying "such and such") etc. Even this little example shows the problems with numbered links very well. Mozzerati 07:05, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Mozzerati, I disagree with you on this. I really don't like having linked text like this functioning as notes. And I think that a policy like this would positively invite linkspam. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Mozzerati that there's a problem, but I share Jmabel's reservations about the solution. Would it be better to encourage the use of footnoted references, so that the text remains uncluttered and the link is given full details in the references section? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:45, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely. Use footnoted references instead (using {{fn}} and {{fnb}}). That way you have the best of both worlds - no clutter in the article, and a useable reference. Better yet, using the Web reference template, you get a date where the link wasn't broken (which could be used to get a cached copy of the link). Also, the footnote is numbered along with any other footnotes, instead of separately. There is NO REASON why you can't do this instead of an inline link. ··gracefool |☺ 22:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Proposed addition 1

Proposed to add to Wikipedia:Cite sources#Numbered footnotes for external citations:

The current best practice for automatically numbered footnotes is described at Wikipedia:Footnote3 (the {{ref|...}} / #{{note|...}} system). Note however:

  • This type of footnote requires external links (URL's) in single square brackets used on the same page to be named (which is good practice too, but has to be checked for the page you're working on when introducing this footnote system)
  • Several other "numbered footnote" systems have been proposed and/or implemented, and may still be encountered on some wikipedia pages: see "see also" section on Wikipedia:Footnote3 that links to several of these.

Reason: "Don't create controversy where there is none - "controversy" would imply Harvard/APA style and "numbered" would be "at odds", which they aren't" --Francis Schonken 19:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Harvard referencing and footnote referencing are at odds, because they are two different in-text citation styles that should not normally appear in the same document.
Who says? Ah yes, the guy who has decided that by definition there should be controversy. I don't see any reference for this contentious assertion.
Second, numbered footnotes for citations are still controversial
Who says? Ah yes, the guy who has decided that by definition there should be controversy. I don't see any reference for this contentious assertion.
— that's why the current version of this policy page does not recommend them, precisely for the reasons listed: i.e. conflicts with bare-URL references,
this reserve is still mentioned in what I proposed as alternative
lack of automatic numbering for repeated references, ...
What nonsense... lack of automatic numbering has no overlap with the question whether the footnote is effective or not as a reference tool...
for that matter, even the numbering for non-repeated citations is not fully automatic. You have to manually make sure that the order in the reference list is the order that they appear in the text, and this can get screwed up at any time if someone adds a new reference.
What constructed problem. No external reference, so don't bore us with this nonsense.
e.g. [2] and [1] are mis-ordered below (they are also misnumbered, but that is an artifact of this Talk page).
No they're not, using the "label" types, the footnote3 notes are correctly numbered. So that's what you want to have as an "ideal" - being allowed to put footnotes in a wrong order? Well, the manually numbered type of footnote3 footnotes allows that. It doesn't give me any reason not to have automatic numbering. The automatic numbered version of footnote3 footnotes helps having numbered footnotes in the right order. What the heck is the problem with that?
We
We???? I hate when wikipedians go in pluralis maiestatis, trying to give their speech more breath than that of a single person giving his opinion.
... would be more inclined to support numbered footnotes if they were not broken
broken? what's that nonsense, reference please!
(I use numbered references all the time in LaTeX),
I don't know about Latex, I'm not interested in it, FYI, this is MediaWiki
but proper support still seems to require changes in MediaWiki rather than template hacks.
Ah, so the message I get from this is that you don't want to use what's working, because you are stuck with Latex in your head. For me that's fine. But don't go bossing over other wikipedians they should follow Latex ideals.
Harvard referencing, on the other hand, requires no software support,
??? Footnotes can be made without software support. That's how I did it in the early days. Now you have templates to help making footnotes, but if you don't want to use it that's OK for me, but again, don't go bossing over other wikipedians.
is robust under edits to the reference list,
??? Who said there couldn't be a reference list any more with Harvard references??? They have separate uses: footnotes for clarifications and/or references to particular passages; A general references list applies to an article as a whole. Depends on the topic of the article. And to a certain extent, on the one who makes time to write the article. That's usually the one who is best placed to see how he can construct the clearest references. And for some articles that would be exclusively Harvard; for other articles some in-line external references would suffise, then for other arrticles a few footnotes would suffise containing, depending on case, some footnotes with APA style templates, some without. And some articles have both footnotes and a separate references list. None of this should be "commandeered" for esthetical reasons of having exclusively the same format of references on all wikipedia pages.
and does not require editors to learn any new technical syntax.
Pushing for the Harvard/APA templates, is as well asking people to learn technical stuff (for me, more technical). Anyway, you don't have to learn anything else than you want to learn. The only problem is that you're not so good in policy writing, trying to present as contentious what is not.
—Steven G. Johnson 21:54, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
--Francis Schonken 05:22, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

1 first footnote
2 second footnote

Proposed addition 2

Proposed to add to Wikipedia:Cite sources#When there is no factual dispute:

However, don't over-reference, the article should in the end still be readible: referencing the all-too-obvious can hamper the perfect article ideal. The best known type of over-referencing is overlinking, as explained in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)#Internal links and Wikipedia:Make only links relevant to the context.

Apart from that, adding general or specific citations to an article which lacks them (whether or not you wrote that article) is an excellent way to contribute to Wikipedia. The more solidly the content of an article is anchored in reliable sources, the better. See Wikipedia:Forum for Encyclopedic Standards and Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check for organized efforts to do this.

Reason:"Overlinking exists, there's no shame in stating that: it is official guideline. Referencing the all-too-obvious is not good wikipedia writing." --Francis Schonken 19:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

efficient changed to solidly Mozzerati 20:28, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
First, over-citation is not the same thing as over-linking.
??? Wikipedia links are presented as a citation technique in Wikipedia:Cite sources, so overlinking is definitely one of the types of over-citation.
It's listed here more for completeness, I think—this page is primarily talking about references that go in the References section, which does not include wikilinks. —Steven G. Johnson
I'm extremely dubious that over-citation is a problem in Wikipedia,
??? Ever tried to read the Terri Schiavo article? - beside a lot of other problems it is terribly over-referenced, as one of the symptomatic deficiencies of such type of articles (I could name a few others...).
I don't see anything wrong with "over-referencing" in the Schiavo article (which may have other problems, of course...I haven't read it closely). They don't interfere with its readability, and they tell you where to find more information on numerous statements. Do you have a specific example of an "unnecessary" reference in the article? —Steven G. Johnson
because the overwhelming problem is under-citation.
"overwhelming"??? I don't like this over-dramatising. If it's your opinion that this is the case, that's fine with me. But don't base wikipedia guideline on it.
I just visited 10 random Wikipedia pages. 7 of them had no references at all, and 2 of the remainder had only a single web link. This confirms my experience—under any reasonable empirical test, Wikipedia is poorly referenced. —Steven G. Johnson
(Moreover, if someone is adding several citations per sentence in the article, the problem is probably not the citations; the problem (if any) might be that they are engaging in original research.)
Contentious ... no references to support your allegations ... what kind of guy are you?
Second adding a long admonition against the alleged "over-citation" problem is *not* harmless.
As if your POV spreading over the guideline page is!
Please don't go around name-calling and making pointless accusations of bias. Wikipedia policies, by nature, are not statements of fact, they are statements of opinion (ideally consensus opinion). Saying "POV, POV!" is unhelpful—everyone here is stating their point of view. —Steven G. Johnson
First, adding any unnecessary instructions to this page distracts attention from the real purpose, which is to encourage citations.
I happen to think citations don't have to be encouraged blindly. And that that is a problem with the present version of the page.
How is it encouraging citations "blindly?" It states specific reasons for which citations should be included. —Steven G. Johnson
The longer the policy is, the less likely someone is to read the whole thing.
Oh, no problem, I'll give a shorter version of the "When there is no factual dispute" paragraph.
The question is, what is wrong with the current version? —Steven G. Johnson
Second, given that the main problem in Wikipedia is arguably lack of citations, adding any discouragement is counter-productive.
No, no, IMHO you give a wrong reading of the problem. Citations are lacking often. People have to be encouraged to add them. On the other hand, encouraging people to add citations where they are redundant, is not an asset to wikipedia.
This page doesn't encourage people to add them where they are "redundant" and you still haven't given a clear example of where this is an actual problem in Wikipedia. (e.g. which references on the Schiavo page are "redundant?") —Steven G. Johnson
Therefore, I don't think your proposed changes are an improvement.
You're allowed your POV, no problem.
—Steven G. Johnson 21:42, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
--Francis Schonken 05:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I've modified it to say:
"Reference anyway, whenever the supporting evidence for a statement may be unclear to a reader."
This should be enough to answer the occasional (mythical?) oddball who wants to add a reference for the sun rising in the morning or whatever. —Steven G. Johnson

revert war / inote

Realising I was coming into the middle of an edit war, I've slightly changed my previous proposed edit about inotes and gone ahead with it. Does that cover citation overuse in a way which won't discourage citations? Mozzerati 22:07, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The case for invisible references seems awfully unclear—the main point of referencing (indeed, almost the whole point) is to help the reader, and you don't help the reader with references she can't see. If some alleged article has so many citations that it is interfering with readability, then something else is wrong; either it's engaging in original research or it's just plain badly written. (I don't understand why people are trying to solve this "problem" of "over-citation", which as far as I can tell is nonexistent in virtually all of Wikipedia.) Besides, if you just want to add a comment to other editors, there is already a common mechanism: <!-- ... > comments. —Steven G. Johnson 22:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The case for invisible references is clear. Our aim is to write a factual encyclopedia. This means that it is not primarily aimed at the academic reader. There are many users, including key contributors (mav (talk · contribs) / Lord Emsworth (talk · contribs)) who used to refuse to reference because they consider that doing so made articles less readable. Inote has enabled us to persuade these editors to add references where otherwise they would add none (see archives of FAC discussions). Pushing for full academic citations in all cases will improve a few articles at the cost of losing references across the whole of Wikipedia. We need to develop a consensus which encourages citations and it needs to be a consensus which compromises between various different needs, including the need to write clean clear encyclopedia articles.

The ideal system, which would definitely have to be built in to MediaWiki, would allow citations to be configured by the end user, so that the choice between none/footnote/Harvard could be made according to the reader's needs. The short term goal should be to find all of the needed ways to preserve this information which is typically gathered when the article is written or improved. Inote is a tool which allows that. Mozzerati 07:50, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Contributors who refuse to reference are not following the policy of Wikipedia; of course, it is better for such people to add an invisible reference than nothing, but that doesn't mean that this page should endorse that practice. The basic principle of citation policy on Wikipedia, which most editors seem to have agreed upon for some time (modulo minor details) is that it is critical for Wikipedia to provide readers, not just editors, with references to support articles and to provide sources of further information. Encouraging "invisible" references would be a major change to this policy and would therefore seem to require support from a lot more editors before being endorsed by this page. —Steven G. Johnson 23:08, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I use a combination of both. I prefer inotes, but I use bookmarks in the following cases: 1. India – to clarify some points. 2) Nepal, where I've made some additions/claims such that the source would be needed to be easily verified. User:Nichalp/sg 09:52, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Style guideline?

The present form of the "cite sources" style&howto guideline has a header template, containing this text:

The consensus of many editors formed the conventions described here.

The content of the page was pretty much: we all agree on the principle of source referencing, but as far as style recommendations we have none while it's all contentious and lacking consensus.

So I restructured the page:

  • Making a distinction between the main lines of referencing style recommendations; and style recommendations for additional referencing techniques.
  • Footnotes, like in-line wikilinks, are all "additional techniques" now, so I suppose the "lacking consensus" is addressed for that.

If such adaptation of the guideline structure would appear unworkable - for whatever reason - I suppose there's two possible roads:

  • Temporarily change the {{style-guideline}} template to {{proposed}}, and sort things out before it is re-introduced as guideline;
  • Change the {{style-guideline}} template to {{guideline}}, and move style&howto info to a separate guideline: so the "Cite sources" principle remains as guideline on this page, and the style&howto goes on a new page in the wikipedia or help namespace, under a {{proposed}} template, until, again, things are sorted out.

--Francis Schonken 10:06, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that it's clear that this page is (or should be) more a guideline of the principles of citing sources (which seems to have broad support) than the specific style to do so. As the page itself points out, there has never been complete agreement on the question of citation formatting. Even simple things like whether there should be a single References section or separate References vs. External Links etc. have never been clearly agreed upon. Because of that, I've always felt that the {{style-guideline}} tag here was a bit of a misnomer, and probably {{guideline}} would be better. On the other hand, it would be unfortunate not to give users a brief "How-to" here, even if details go on a separate page. Especially since there are some stylistic principles that do seem to have general agreement: namely, that the complete reference information for all references should go at the end in a separate section(s), and that occasional in-text pointers may be added in addition when the support for a given statement may be unclear.
Can we please discuss major changes here before making them to the page, however? —Steven G. Johnson 23:28, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
PS. The question of separate "Further Reading" vs. "References" sections is periodically brought up here. Professional scholarly publications almost never separate these sections, essentially because it is not a workable distinction. For one thing, it is dishonest to point the reader to anything for further reading if you aren't familiar with what it says and are reasonably sure it is consistent with what the article says—thus, anything in "further reading" is implicitly a source used to verify the article (and conversely, many sources used to write the article might make good further reading). Note also that one of the listed policy reasons to cite sources is to provide further information. (Sometimes, a book will have a per-chapter "Further Reading" section that highlights a subset of the bibliography. This is mainly because a book's bibliography is often so long that such pointers are needed; it should be rarely needed for individual articles, but in any case it is conceptually different from a "Further Reading" section that is disjoint from the "References".) —Steven G. Johnson 23:28, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
verbose? --Francis Schonken 05:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Steven still appears to be working outside consensus, protecting outdated idiosycrasies, no longer supported by present consensus.

The updates I proposed to the guideline are none of them major, and all of them reflection of consensus. Maybe it's best to clarify a bit:

1) Lay-out update: this follows from Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Controversy: that paragraph explains how wikipedia articles can get out of balance by a pernicious application of "controversy" (and similarly "lack of consensus", and the like). Surely, if we don't want main namespace articles to have that flaw, I don't see why it should be acceptable in "wikipedia:" namespace. I followed the recommendations of Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Controversy, which *exactly* advises an adaptation of the article structure, for avoiding that flaw.

2) Technical comments to the current "footnotes" guideline were removed by me: Some of it is outdated (see above), and that guideline can also evolve. So WP:CITE is not the place to go in the technicalities of the technical wikipedia:footnote3 guideline. Note that on the other hand I proposed not to have any "how to choose between referencing systems" info in the footnotes guideline(s), restoring that topic to WP:CITE, as part of the efforts to harmonise both guidelines (see: wikipedia talk:footnote3#Consensus proposal, which is, as far as I know, accepted)

3) I added a paragraph about no robot-transformation of one type of references to another type, which was subject of the talk on wikipedia talk:footnote3#Footnotes_vs._inline_web_references (and several other parts of that talk page). SEWilco defended his engine for performing such transformations. All others appeared dismissive. I think SEWilco can live with the consensus not to apply robot-transformation of in-line external references to footnotes (of whatever kind) of articles for which there has been no request in that sense by the major contributors of the article content. This no-bot recommendation should be in WP:CITE as per point 2) above (in other words: that's "WP:CITE" topic and not "WP:FN3" topic).

4) I added a section about the (present) status of "external links" and "further reading" sections w.r.t. citing sources, hereby reflecting what was said about that on this talk page above. If questions about that "come up" every now and then, a summary of what wikipedia community thinks about that can be in the guideline.

5) In my next version of the WP:CITE guideline I'll attempt to do away with the last instance still using "controversy" terminology, i.e. the part where the "model" of citations is discussed. I think it perfectly possible to state that in terms of: contributors to article content collaborate on finding the most suitable system for a clear presentation of references, which might work better than the "no consensus" model with a direct link to what is only "one" of the proposed models, on top of the page. This, again, is not a "major" change, only, again, converting "controversy" model in a practical guideline, that however does not "impose" a style where there's no consensus to do so: the better approach is to present the available techniques, not subjectively implying precedence not supported by the wikipedia community.

--Francis Schonken 10:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Comments requested at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Inline links discouraged in favor of more complete sources. (SEWilco 08:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC))

Reverting

Frances, please don't keep reverting my edits. People have a right to edit this page, and there are errors in the previous version. Here is the diff [1]; please don't revert again but list your objections here and we can go through them together.

For example, your version says we should cite sources so that editors can verify facts. But that's exactly what we don't want them to do, because that's original research. We don't verify facts; we verify that what we're adding to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. That is the essence of WP:V and WP:NOR and this page must be consistent with the policies.

Please let us discuss the edits one by one if necessary, but don't simply revert them all. Also, I have no idea what you mean about Harvard referencing being connected to inline links. How are they related? SlimVirgin (talk) 01:43, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, you're only trying to add confusion: things were & are discussed point by point on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Inline links discouraged in favor of more complete sources. You were perfectly aware of that discussion, while you took part in it. You changed the guideline text nonetheless before waiting the end of these discussions, trying to influence the outcome of that discussion by pushing POV on the guideline page.
No, no, stop Francis. Please assume good faith. I'm not pushing a POV, I'm not even sure what the POV is that you're referring to. I did a copy edit to improve the English, extended the intro because it was too short, and clarified what Harvard referencing is, which has nothing to do with the discussion about links so far as I see. And the use of inline links is policy anyway, and this page is only a guideline, so I'm wondering if you've misunderstood the status of this page or something. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
What are you talking about? --Francis Schonken 20:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
In the end you show your true card: all of what you change to guidelines is exclusively justified by what you do when editing wikipedia... taking yourself as norm, against wikipedia's NOR policy (while in the same time shouting abuse to other wikipedians, not nearly as much trespassing NOR policy).
What are you talking about? SlimVirgin (talk) 10:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
What are you talking about? --Francis Schonken 20:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
In-text Harvard references and in-line links are both in-line references (which is the title of the section, where they both belong as a sub-section) - you destroyed that structure of the guideline several times, and that while saying "you don't know what it is about". Well, I'll add an explicit definition of what "in-line references" are, and restore the structure of the guideline.
The discussion on the pump is about inline links. Anyway, you're not going to get rid of inline links, because editors like using them and they're helpful to readers. And you're not going to get rid of Harvard referencing, because it's a common method of referencing recognized by editors all over the world. And why would you want to try? SlimVirgin (talk) 10:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
What are you talking about? --Francis Schonken 20:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Also, I'll restore the section pushing POV regarding "external links" and "further reading" sections. The POV is that you can't accuse fellow wikipedians of doing something wrong if something that is a reference ends up in a an "external links" or "further reading" section. The present policy is to discourage that, not saying it is "wrong". That a previous version of that text was already experienced as a bit sharp on the forbidding side, can be seen from this village pump topic: diff (as a consequence, the "forbidding" was formulated less sharp)
I'm not clear on the difference between discourage and wrong. References go in the references section. What more is there to say? SlimVirgin (talk) 10:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
What are you talking about? --Francis Schonken 20:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Re. "facts", I keep to the definition of "fact" contained in wikipedia:neutral point of view#A simple formulation - I know wikipedia:reliable sources should sort of be updated in that sense while it uses a different definition of fact, not completely compatible with NPOV policy. But at least both agree that wikipedia does not deal with "truth". Neither do I. So what is the accusation you want to launch exactly?
--Francis Schonken 10:03, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Francis, I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
What are you talking about?
Sorry, I'm not obtuse either, not deliberately, nor otherwise. Somewhere we seem to be talking a different kind of English. As most wikipedians seem capable of understanding the English I'm accustomed to, I really have no clue what the problem is and what you're talking about? --Francis Schonken 20:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Examples of articles using Harvard notation

Can someone point out some articles which use Harvard-style referencing? (SEWilco 02:51, 16 October 2005 (UTC))

Without picking any particular examples, if you look through WP:FA you can find many that use it at least in part. Actually, FA provides a good example of the variety of styles in use and some of those articles are also what I would call mixed bags with several different styles used in a single article. Dragons flight 03:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Ah, of course. Thanks. (SEWilco 03:07, 16 October 2005 (UTC))
Looking at the first article in each category, only Alchemy, Coca-Cola, and Anne of Great Britain are of interest. Anyone notice any other examples? (SEWilco 04:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC))

Perhaps much of the details at Wikipedia:Cite_sources#What_to_do_when_a_reference_link_.22goes_dead.22 should be in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links), Wikipedia:External links or Wikipedia:Footnotes. The summary in this article should kindly remind DON'T DELETE DEAD LINKS and point at the details of restoration methods. (SEWilco 04:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC))

All in all I think the section should maybe better be moved to wikipedia:reliable sources, because "being available" is of course one of the many aspects of "being reliable" - for instance a web source that is unavailable 90% of the time, is IMHO not the most reliable source, if there's another website with similar content being available 95% of the time. --Francis Schonken 06:58, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Section moved; this talk page section copied to Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources#Dead link details --Francis Schonken 07:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Revert to prior "consensus" version

As a result of the "no consensus" about a new version (explained above, and in Village Pump/policy), I'm reverting to the last version that apparently had consensus, that is the version:

  • By SEWilco, 18:27, 7 October 2005 diff
  • This version confirmed by Paul August after vandalism, 03:38, 9 October 2005 diff

In addition I keep the new "dead links" section initiated by Jmabel, but have moved it to a more appropriate place.

Again: please use the discussion page to propose major changes...

--Francis Schonken 08:28, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

No one has made any major changes that I can see. What do you see as being a major change? SlimVirgin (talk) 08:37, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Francis, could you say exactly what your specific objections are please? For example, you keep deleting the example of Harvard referencing, which is given as (Smith, 2005)? What is wrong with that example, in your view? SlimVirgin (talk) 11:00, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Francis, considering that you made major changes to this article, over repeated objections, without achieving "consensus" here first (do you see any comments in support of your proposal above?), you seem awfully hypocritical. The last version of this page that was at all stable (lasting for a long time without major controversy), was September 22, 2005. —Steven G. Johnson 17:34, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I see no reason for accusing me of being hypocritical.

Above, in #Style guideline? it is explained why the 22 september version was not all that stable altogether (note that it didn't last for a day).

I've not seen SlimVirgin make any objection to the 5 changes explained in #Style guideline? above.

Further, after repeated attempts to draw SlimVirgin's attention to Wikipedia:How to create policy#Guidelines for creating policies and guidelines, notably the fact that that guideline insists on flexibility as a major quality for all guidelines and policies, SlimVirgin keeps asserting "he doesn't know what that is about".

So, I'd like to invite SlimVirgin to consider his options, on a voluntary basis: either SlimVirgin tries to acquire some understanding about how guidelines & policies work in wikipedia, either it's maybe better SlimVirgin stops messing with guideline & policy texts.

But I'm perfectly aware SlimVirgin will again not be knowing what I'm talking about: in which case it's maybe better to keep out of guideline texts, and come to talk pages first. --Francis Schonken 06:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I do know how policy works on Wikipedia, Francis, which is why I'm bewildered about this. This is a guideline or style guide. I made what I see as an edit that tidied some areas, expanded the intro because it was too short (but only by getting rid of the first header, not by actually adding anything of my own), expanded a little on what Harvard referencing is, and gave an example of it. I didn't substantively change anything about the guideline, at least not that I'm aware of. So I have to ask you again: what is it that you think I made substantively different from the previous version? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:56, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, my next update will respect the "harvard references" additions. I only removed it once, because you seemed unable to separate unbalancing effects of that edit from the good stuff, which is a little bit more detail about how to use this type of references.
Well, I'm still bewildered why you keep removing the {{style}} template? Isn't that "major change"?
--Francis Schonken 07:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Things tend to go more smoothly if a few related changes are done, then wait a while (a day?) before next change. That makes it easier to complete copyedit changes, and individual contested items can be discussed individually. (SEWilco 15:50, 18 October 2005 (UTC))
I've re-added the style template, provided no one else objects to it being there (if you do, by all means remove it again). Francis, is there anything else you feel was changed substantively? SlimVirgin (talk) 16:20, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Changes to the structure are all critical at this point: look, above I explained that there were 3 or 4 instances where the article used to say there was "controversy", "no consensus", and the like. In order to avoid using that terminology it is advised to change the structure of an article (see reference above). From that point the balance of the structure becomes critical, because it is the structure of the article that expresses what relative importance the wikipedia community attaches to individual aspects. I'm convinced SlimVirgin doesn't understand the least bit about it, despite his experience in writing policy & guideline text. Or he understands and is pushing POV. So I revert to the previous structure, and propose we take it from there. I tried to keep as many of the edits that didn't unbalance as I could (and as far as I could agree with them), but as long as we can't agree regarding the structure expressing another balance (e.g. pushing Harvard references more than it did before by changing the subtitle level), it shouldn't be changed.
Other remarks:
  • It is usual that the rationale of a guideline is explained in the first part of the body of a guideline, not in the intro.
  • Lay-out: the italicised indented text above the first sentence of the intro is bad usability: there is already the "guideline" banner and some other usual guideline attributes around, there's no use in further burdening the lay-out.
  • There is a bolded link to wikipedia:reliable sources in the intro. That guideline refers in its intro to both wikipedia:verifiability and wikipedia:no original research. I don't see any use in redundant repeats.
  • "Editors should" is a no-flexible expression, so to be avoided in guidelines.
  • Please stop removing the footnote with the definition of "in-line references"
  • etc... see other sections on this talk page
--Francis Schonken 06:40, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

References section

I removed the words "that apply to the article as a whole" from the sentence: "References that apply to the article as a whole are collected at the end of the article under a ==References== heading."

I did this because it wasn't clear what it meant, and SEWilco used it in another article to remove the References section and replace it with Notes and footnotes, on the grounds that the sources applied to specific points and not the "article as a whole." But sources always apply to specific points, so I don't know what he meant.

I'm concerned about this page in that some editors here seem to be changing the guideline to suit very particular and unusual points of view about what sources and citations are. The page has to be consistent with policy, with other publishing styles and conventions, and with common sense. The more complicated we make the issue of citation, the less we'll be able to persuade editors to provide sources.

The guideline also has to be well written so that people understand it, but there is some confusing writing. Does anyone mind if I go through it and do a copy edit? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

It was clear to me what it meant. General references in "References" section. Notes for more specific sources in "Notes" section. I think you forgot about "Notes" mentioned in Wikipedia:Cite_sources#Numbered_footnotes_-_.22Notes.22_section, and there could be phrasing in both section which mentions the other situation. The "Numbered footnotes" section also has to be rewritten, as both "numbered footnotes" and "Harvard references" are means for doing specific references to sources, differing only in notation. (SEWilco 19:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC))
I don't know what you mean by a "general reference." Can you give an example? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:19, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Looks like "References" and "Notes" are being used in Music of the United States and George W. Bush. Based on the previous definitions in WP:CITE, if I were writing the article "Bronze" I might use a book on bronze metallurgy and one on the Bronze Age as general references for much of the text. On the other hand, specific sources might be noted for details on welding or weathering. (SEWilco 03:12, 19 October 2005 (UTC))
I suppose SEWilco has clarified the point, so that we can go back to the version that worked fine. --Francis Schonken 05:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd call that "the version with References being for general sources". Revert to it before other improvements. Still awkward, it is. (SEWilco 05:54, 19 October 2005 (UTC))

Writing

There are problems with the writing in this article, to the point where some of it seems to be meaningless. For example, what does this mean? "The types of references described in this section don't always fall under "cite sources", but can give additional support to finding sources that are related to the wikipedia article."

Also this:

"Footnotes are sometimes useful for relevant text that would distract from the main point if embedded in the main text, yet are helpful in explaining a point in greater detail. Such footnotes can be especially helpful for later fact-checkers, to ensure that the article text is well-supported. Thus, using footnotes to provide useful clarifying information outside the main point is fine where this is needed."

I assume it means: "Footnotes may be used to cite sources, or to link to texts that provide more information" — but then why not just say so?

The harder this is to read, the less it will be read, so if we want editors to take it seriously, I suggest we keep the sentence construction simple, and the ideas clearly expressed. I'm sorry to write in this way: I don't intend to be overly critical, but our policies and guidelines have to be well written, because if we can't get it right even here, we can't ask editors to pay attention to detail anywhere else. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

That paragraph is also trying to convey that footnotes may contain explanatory notes, not only citations of sources. A footnote might also contain a long clarification, or merely a short note such as "Uses the same ammunition as the M1." (SEWilco 04:59, 19 October 2005 (UTC))

Reorganization

Part of the table of contents looks like this:

5 Style and how-to

5.1 References in a "References" section
5.2 In-line references
5.2.1 Harvard style
5.2.2 External links

6 Additional referencing

6.1 In-line wiki-links
6.2 References in a "See also" section - subpages
6.3 "External links" and "Further reading" sections
6.4 Numbered footnotes - "Notes" section


I watched it grow, so understand it began as a simpler list and then each type of information accumulated related material. Some reorganization seems needed because related information has accumulated in separated locations.

  • Possibly "In-line wiki-links" should be first.
    Don't agree: section 5 is about "exclusively used for citing sources"; section 6 is about "can be used for citing sources, and can be used for other things"; "In-line wiki-links" clearly belongs in the second of those two categories. See also risk for circularity or even hidden original research when relying too heavily on "internal links" as references (well, explained that elsewere, there's still a section in Village pump/policy where I give some detail about that, the "lists and references" section). --Francis Schonken 07:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
    That is not a useful separation because it splits similar topics in a way which forces the more restrictive variants far from their more general relatives. The "External links" section is separated from External links. Source citations can be pointed at by both Harvard style and Numbered footnotes style references (as there is no Author for an explanatory note, can't something like "Note 1" be used for Harvard-style links to explanatory notes?). (SEWilco 14:26, 19 October 2005 (UTC))
    Please don't use absolute terms in the sense of: "That is not a useful separation..." - I happen to think it is a useful separation. Similarity can be appreciated in various ways. The way I appreciate it is similarity by function: "citation only" is similar, and can be grouped; "citation and other" is also in that sense similar, and so also can be grouped IMHO. I appreciate you'd prefer a different approach, but I don't really see the advantages of it. --Francis Schonken 05:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
    You're separating based upon the functionality of the referencing methods, thus forcing apart the less general Harvard style from more general linkages. Articles can require many types of explanations, which might be all gathered in endnotes. If Harvard style can only link to some endnotes, that style is a subset of the more general concept of linking text to endnotes. Should all means of linking to endnotes be grouped together? (SEWilco 07:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC))
  • The "sections" sections (References,See also, External links, Further reading) probably should be summarized in one section so their various meanings can be contrasted. Also the "Notes" section (in 6.4) does not show in the table but it also needs to be gathered with the other Sections.
    Don't agree, "type of referencing" in two sets (#1 "citation only"; #2 "citation and other things"), as described in my comment above. In that case no need to group "sections" sections. --Francis Schonken 07:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
    I said "summarized in one section", as an overview of the section usage. (SEWilco 14:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC))
    Wikipedia:Guide to layout#Standardized appendices does that - I don't see a need to double that here, but a link to that guideline might be useful, and I'll add it to the WP:CITE page (note that the indicated section of "Guide to layout" could benefit from some updating...). --Francis Schonken 05:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
  • "Numbered footnotes" needs to be changed to just "Footnotes" and summarize references-to-citations concept, with "numbered" and "Harvard" styles as methods for referring to citations.
    Confusing: "references-to-citations" is "citations only"; numbered footnotes is not "citations only". --Francis Schonken 07:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
    The section now called "Numbered footnotes" needs generalization to "Footnotes" and an introduction to the concept of a "reference" being a label in text which identifies an associated "endnote". Endnotes are in a section which is a mixed list of explanatory notes and citations; indeed it is common for an explanatory note to also mention a source. (SEWilco 14:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC))
    Well, I happen to think that is exactly what is *not* needed: that would only fire discussions about the precedence between the several types of footnotes directly on the guideline page again (I don't object to these discussions on talk pages, trying to reach consensus). If merging the sections about these two types of footnotes on the guideline page, it is very likely that the fundamental difference that numbered footnotes can be used for other things than citation of sources too, would again go lost in the discussion. --Francis Schonken 05:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
  • "External links" second from the end, as its last sentence can mention the next topic.
    IMHO the guideline should stress that in-line external links better only be used for "citations", as in WP:NOT, "wikipedia is not a collection of external links" --Francis Schonken 07:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
  • "... goes dead" as the last section.
    I knew there were some points on which we would agree! --Francis Schonken 07:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

— (SEWilco 06:23, 19 October 2005 (UTC))

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