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Proposal: Delete guideline that bans "70 × 90 cm" and mandates "70 cm × 90 cm"

Somebody kindly brought my attention to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Conventions that says:

• When dimensions are given, values each number should be followed by a unit (e.g., write 1 m × 3 m × 6 m, not 1 × 3 × 6 m³ or 1 × 3 × 6 m).

I propose deleting this guideline. I suspect the motivation for the guideline is that it resolves a potential ambiguity when the reader could mistake each value. For example, a glass door might be 8 millimetres thick, 2 metres high and 1 metre wide. Therefore it needs to be presented as "8 mm x 2 m x 1 m". However, I would like to be able to describe a painting as having dimensions of:

• "70 x 90 cm"

This seems to me to be perfectly reasonable but the guideline would require.

• "70 cm x 90 cm"

It is unlikely that the height of a painting will be 100 times the width. But if it were, any reasonable editor would add the unit labels without needing to be told i.e. "4 cm x 4 m". The guideline requires an additional eight characters (four metric, four non-metric) for two dimensional applications and sixteen characters for three dimensional applications. It adds no value but adds a burden. I propose that it is simply deleted. Does anyone support the proposal? Lightmouse (talk) 11:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

A most excellent proposal and a welcome if small step against instruction creep.Dejvid (talk) 11:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

70 × 90 cm can be interpreted as seventy times 90 cm, e.g. something composed by 70 pieces, each 90 cm wide and of unspecified height, placed side-by-side. -- Army1987 – Deeds, not words. 12:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Lets look at an example article such as Mona Lisa. It doesn't repeat the unit and therefore breaks the guideline. I don't think it is ambiguous. Does anyone? Lightmouse (talk) 12:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with LM here, the wording isn't necessary. In cases of ambiguity (such as a scenario suggested by Army1987), of course the extra units may be used, but in the vast majority of cases, the unit is implied and is not a requirement.—MDCollins 12:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)And I propose to edit that so it's in English: "...values each number..."? To my way of thinking, clarity trumps everything, especially in an encyclopedia. Most of the "rules" in the MoS have been hashed out and thought through by people with experience in this sort of thing, and we mess with it at our peril. I like the tidiness of the recommended form, and it leaves no doubt whether the writer forgot the first unit or not. And I hope you will forgive an observation that might be somewhat insulting, dear Lightmouse: It's hard to make a case for changing the MoS when you yourself display so little proficiency in matters typographical. All I'm saying with that is let the style guys and gals do their thing if you're not going to study the matter yourself. --Milkbreath (talk) 12:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

So by your reasoning, Milkbreath, should we discount your opinion because of your unwarranted personal attack on Lightmouse? — Bellhalla (talk) 13:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

(ec) "70 x 90 cm" is correct, idiomatic English, while "70 cm x 90 cm" is correct, pedantic English. In the long run, the pedants always win, so why bother fighting against windmills? The problem is that "70 x 90 cm" looks like a mathematical formula (an incorrect one), when it is really an abbreviation for a natural language expression. I would support adding the qualification "in technical contexts" (and fixing the grammar mistake in the rule). --Hans Adler (talk) 12:44, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

But this is an encyclopedia and should use pedantic English, not idiomatic English. There is a prohibition against contractions such as it's or doesn't, which are definitely no more incorrect than 70 x 90 cm is (I've seen them used in university-level textbooks), and the uncontracted forms can be very awkward in some sentences (such as negative questions). I think this is a similar issue. -- Army1987 – Deeds, not words. 18:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

No, this is an encyclopedia; it should be readable, accurate, and clear. Pedantry interferes with two of those, and may inhibit the third. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Milkbreath said "you yourself display so little proficiency in matters typographical". I am always seeking to improve but sweeping criticism isn't something that I can work with. Can you provide an example of a typographical error that I made? Lightmouse (talk) 12:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, again. I was only trying to make the point that we shouldn't fiddle with things we don't understand. We wouldn't monkey with the circuitry down at the hydroelectric plant, at least partly because it would probably kill us. And although we face no real danger to ourselves in monkeying with typographical conventions, we are no more qualified to do that than the other thing. To answer your perfectly reasonable and courteous question, not only is "i.e." Latin and therefore takes italics, it must be set off with commas. Also, it's "two-dimensional" and "three-dimensional". People get very touchy about being corrected this way, but that's what we're talking about here, fine points of typography. --Milkbreath (talk) 13:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It is a mathematical formula. And mathematical formulas are abbreviation for natural language expressions. For example the mathematical formula ∇ · B = 0 is an abbreviation for the natural language expression "The divergence of the magnetic field is zero", and $\textstyle \nabla \times \mathbf {B} =\mu _{0}\mathbf {J} +{\frac {1}{c^{2}}}{\frac {\partial \mathbf {E} }{\partial t}}$ is an abbreviation for the natural language expression "the curl of the magnetic field is the sum of the the electric current density multiplied by the vacuum permeability and the time derivative of the electric field divided by the square of the speed of light". And you wouldn't omit the 1/c² on the grounds that the formula would be unambiguous anyway. How is this particular example being discussed special? -- Army1987 – Deeds, not words. 13:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Mathematical formulas are written in a highly formalised language that is (incompletely) optimised for aspects such as unique readability. Not too surprisingly, this formalised language influences the much less formal spoken English in some areas, and that's why we say things like "seventy times ninety centimetres", which is usually written as "70 x 90 cm". It's like many examples of French words that are used in English, often with a meaning that is slightly different from the original French meaning. The particular example (I suppose you mean Mona Lisa) is not special, it's just one in an art context, so that the natural language context dominates over the technical context. "77 x 53 cm" is more correct here. On the other hand, "77 cm x 53 cm" is more correct for the dimensions of a solar panel. --Hans Adler (talk) 13:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The article Heterosexuality mentions "sexual relations between male and female individuals". This could be interpreted as meaning: individuals who are male and female, such as hermaphrodites. So would you advocate a style rule mandating that this construction be changed to "sexual relations between male individuals and female individuals"? But that could possibly be misinterpreted as meaning: "sexual relations between male individuals and sexual relations between female individuals". Trying to avoid all potential ambiguity is not only doomed to fail, but also leads to unreadability: instead of a potentially incorrect meaning, none get across to the reader. By the way, if you use natural units you would omit the 1/c². 199.3.224.3 (talk) 10:44, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I was uneasy about the insistence on the repetition from the start. The guideline should be changed to allow what is almost always an unnecessary repetition to be dropped. Tony (talk) 14:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Would it not be a much clearer solution to require either 70 by 90 cm (English, no repetition) or 70 cm x 90 cm (formula, each number a unit). −Woodstone (talk) 18:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes. (Though I guess that by should be surrounded by hyphens not spaces? I'm not sure about that, though...) -- Army1987 – Deeds, not words. 20:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Either would be a clear rule; both would be bad advice, at least some of the time. That's why we shouldn't give either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Problem: "70 × 90 cm" could be mistaken for 6300 cm, whereas in fact it's 6300 cm². In some contexts that is crucial. Michael Hardy (talk) 20:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• I hate to go against two valued Wikifriends, but I agree with Lightmouse. For highly, highly technical or mathematical articles, the extra discipline advocated by Army1987 is fine. But writing "70 × 90 cm" is more natural and fluid and confuses no one in the normal contexts one would expect to find the expression. I’d also bet $10 that the Associated Press does it this way. Their manual of style is followed throughout the English-speaking world and is what our minds expect. It’s all for not anyway; MOSNUM is locked down tighter than Fort Knox. Greg L (talk) 00:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• A slighly outdated version of the Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed.) does not mention the issue as such, but in paragraphs devoted to other numerical matters, mentions "three-by-five-inch index cards" (¶ 8.12) under nonscientific usage, and "26 mm × 45 mm' under abbreviations. The Associated Press Style Manual is arranged alphabetically. and I can't think of a word to look up that would lead me to a relevant example or rule. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 01:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• You own the damn thing?? Greg L (talk) 02:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The Sixth Trade Edition of the AP Stylebook (1996) addresses this question, albeit inadequately, under "dimensions". It doesn't seem to acknowledge the form with the "times" symbol, it being a newspaper guide that has only standard characters to work with for the most part. One example that is germaine here is "The rug is 9 feet by 12 feet, the 9-by-12 rug." (I own two editions of it.) --Milkbreath (talk) 12:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This would be a perfect example for giving advice: When giving the dimensions of an object, "70 × 90 cm" is more natural and idiomatic; in some contexts, however, it may be ambiguous, in which case use "70 cm × 90 cm". This is what rational editors would do if we were silent; can we either say something like this, or leave the point alone?

If we can agree, we can use {{editprotected}}. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

But what's wrong with Woodstone's proposal? It is not a mathematical formula, but unlike 70 × 90 cm it doesn't pretend to be one. -- Army1987 – Deeds, not words. 02:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to ban this popular format, you have to tell us that you think it is confusing in real articles. Please look at Mona Lisa and tell us if you think you are confused by how it describes its dimensions. Seriously. Lightmouse (talk) 11:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

According to that logic, we shouldn't ban contractions such as aren't either, since they can't ever be the least bit confusing or ambiguous, in any context that even the most anal-retentive pedant could even think of. -- Army1987 – Deeds, not words. 12:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Danger of confusion is an overused and often invalid argument by prescriptivists. This can hardly be the standard we have to meet before making a prescription. I think "77 x 53 cm" is OK, and possibly a bit more idiomatic in the Mona Lisa context than "77 cm x 53 cm". I like "77 by 53 cm", but I think it wouldn't work in the Mona Lisa template.

At this stage in the discussion I am leaning towards leaving the rule essentially as it is, but fixing the grammar and proposing the "77 by 53 cm" style as an alternative. I think that's a good compromise between uniformity and freedom and likely to minimise the back and forth between equivalent formulations. --Hans Adler (talk) 12:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Every extra rule means the others are less likely to be followed. Are people really claiming that relying on editors' common sense will be so disastrous that this rule is needed?Dejvid (talk) 16:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Question: Is it actually true that "70 × 90 cm" is "idiomatic" as has been claimed above? Is it common in publications? In my anecdotal experience, while "70 cm × 90 cm" and "70-by-90" (with no units) are common in everyday speech, "70 × 90 cm" is not. Shreevatsa (talk) 17:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It is not uncommon in print. Some occurrences in books or journals: [1],[2],[3]. 88.234.217.196 (talk) 11:03, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

To me "70 by 90 cm" (What's with the hyphens?) or "70 cm × 90 cm" dependant on context seems a decent compromise. The "by" works best in prose (as opposed to the cold multiplication sign), it is a word so is clearly covered by the idiom argument and cannot, even in isolation, lead to any ambiguity. The multiplication sign, on the other hand, might be better in tables, captions, infoboxes and the like at which a reader might just take a fleeting glance. With the mathematical sysmbol, the expression is more of a mathematical entity and so might be expected (at least by some) to conform to rigid mathematical rules. So I'm proposing softening the rule to allow ommission of the extra unit names/symbols/abbreviations where we use "by". JIMp _talk·cont 19:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Putting away my personal distaste for the clunky "90 cm × 70 cm × 45 cm", I can't see the point of insisting on either that or the more streamlined and easier-to-read "90 × 70 × 45 cm". MoS, I believe, should recommend either, and editors, when they see the choice laid out, might come to their own conclusion. Tony (talk) 07:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

50 × 50 cm will always mean 2500 cm, so if you mean 50 cm × 50 cm, then write 50 cm × 50 cm. Even in prose it should appear as "A 50 centimeters by 50 centimeters area". If you're giving a technical information, make sure that what you're giving is technically correct. "Knowing what is meant" is not an excuse for sloppiness. Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 07:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the part about the symbol ×, but not with that about prose – "by" is a preposition, not a mathematical operator, so "50-by-50 centimetres" is no worse than, for example, "ranging from 50 to 70 centimetres", "in two or three hours", "We have 5-, 10-, and 15-euros phone cards", etc. --80.104.231.233 (talk) (formerly known as Army1987) 10:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)