Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 24

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When/How Does "Unreferenced" Get Removed?

In the article on stubs, it says, "Be bold in removing stub tags that are clearly no longer applicable." But what about an "Unreferenced" tag? Clearly, I would think, more circumspection is required for the latter than the former, but surely at some point, after a certain critical mass of supporting citations has accrued the article, it must become appropriate to remove the latter as well.

So, then:

• What is the critical mass?
• By whom should the removal be done?
• Through what process should he or she go, prior to removing?

208.252.192.131 (talk) 10:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

As with most things here, it is going to be up to the judgment of individual editors. It is not only quantity, but also quality. Add or remove any of the tags as needed. Remember: edit, revert, discuss; If you make a change and it is reverted, discuss it before getting into an edit war. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Discursive notes

...earlier part archived...

...later part archived...

Doesn't look like this will happen without a wiki developer to sponsor it. Shame 'cos I thought it was quite a good idea. --SallyScot (talk) 17:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Findability

The citation should clearly, fully, and precisely demonstrate that the source text is reasonably findable, such as by external link to the source website. Providing an ISBN or OCLC number, linking to an established Wikipedia article about the source, and directly quoting brief context on the talk page also each assert findability sufficiently.

Above text I inserted was reverted by Crum375. Variations of this have also been tried at WP:V and the suggestion was made to try it here. A couple editors seem to have misunderstood the intent.

The question that arose at WT:V was: when have I in good faith discharged my duty to ensure my source can be found, if it's not on the web? I should be able to have guidelines for knowing this at time of insertion, without having to wait for the potential challenge. The answer we developed was: it's sufficient for "findability" if some other link that indicates the source can be found by a reasonable editor. If you cite an ISBN or OCLC number, a link arises to demonstrate that some libraries or archives do in fact contain the source. If you quote the context in talk, that demonstrates that you have the book and (assuming good faith) have summarized it correctly in mainspace. The same is true if you wikilink the source from the citation, as is routinely done: if the publication, author, or publisher has sufficient independent notability to have a WP article, that indicates that the source can be found. For instance, my local paper is reliable but not widely famous. If I quote something from print which is unavailable online (which I have done), the fact that the paper has its own WP article is sufficient to demonstrate that my quotation is findable.

The whole point is that if someone quotes a rare book and leaves, we may well have a full cite with page numbers, but we can't prove that the book and author exist without some findability check. So if no link is provided [add the obvious: or found by another editor's reasonable search], the next editor is justified in deleting the alleged source as unverifiable. If a link is provided, then discussion can turn to the other topics, such as what the source actually says (more V), whether it's reliable (RS), and whether the summary matches the source (NOR), and so on. I think the misunderstanding arises from the idea that this passage confers automatic verifiability on all sources that happen to be mentioned by WP. No, it confers findability. Would anyone else like to comment on the worth of this guideline for settling the question raised? JJB 16:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

We depend to a large degree on good faith, so one should not delete a citation to a rare source just because it seems inaccessible to us or because the editor neglected to add an OCLC number, or whatever. If the source cannot be found, the approach should be to seek to verify the information through alternative sources. If you cannot do so, you could then argue that the information itself is too obscure to go in the article and replace it (citation and all) with something more widely known. But that is a different thing to shooting difficult-to-find sources on sight.

Although a comment on a source in the talk page is courteous and useful when adding citations to rare sources, it has no verifying effect on the article text itself, because most readers won't think of checking in the talk-page archives. And a source shouldn't be cut because an editor neglected to add details on the talk page. qp10qp (talk) 17:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I may have introduced another possible misimplication in my latest explanation, now refactored. Your first paragraph is exactly what I meant. The issue is that if I have a reliable source so rare that zero information exists anywhere on the web about it (beyond my using it in cites at WP), I should describe some method that someone besides me can access the book directly (such as by directly quoting it, taken in good faith). If I haven't, then a challenger is acting in good faith to request that access method be supplied. That's all. JJB 18:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion at WT:V#Demonstrably findable? and WT:V#Extended protection sounds like consensus that the description of findability should go on this page. I am refactoring it based on the need not to make it seem like a demand unless another editor finds the text to be inaccessible, and spelling it out a bit more because guideline not policy:

The citation should state, as clearly, fully, and precisely as possible, how a reader can find the source material, such as by external link to the source website. If the material is not findable online, it should be findable in reputable libraries, archives, or collections. If a citation without an external link is challenged as unfindable, any of the following is sufficient to show the material to be reasonably findable (though not necessarily reliable): providing an ISBN or OCLC number; linking to an established Wikipedia article about the source (the work, its author, or its publisher); or directly quoting the material on the talk page, briefly and in context.

JJB 20:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Inserting due to lack of discussion. JJB 16:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Embedded links

These break the connection between the place a link is used and the full citation, which is not only a problem for editors, but perhaps more so for readers, since they can't simply click their way to the full citation. I propose to drop this citation method entirely. -- Shinobu (talk) 19:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the accepted wikpedia policy on external links as references? There seems to be conflict (either explicit or confusion) about what the proper reference style is. If I were to link to an external site as a reference to a fact, is the proper usage to [1] link it with a numbered link, or to put that link with full information inside a <ref> tag so that the link appears in the reflist and only a numbered link to the reflist is placed? I always thought numbered external links (the first way) was discouraged in favoure of reference lists, but Wikipedia:Embedded citations seems to suggest this as the proper way. TheHYPO (talk) 18:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Embedded reference are tolerated, but full bibliographical information is better, because if the link goes dead, there will be better clues to help figure out where the information might have moved to, or where to find equivalent information. The full bibliographical information can be included with <ref> tags or with Harvard referencing. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

---

With regard to Embedded links (discussion points above from Archive 19 - see also here) I would like to include the following sentence at the end of the section...

Because of the difficulties in associating them with their appropriate full references, the use of embedded links for inline citations is not particularly recommended as a method of best practice.

I'd like to hear any reasonable counterarguments beforehand. Thanks, --SallyScot (talk) 23:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Last Name First in Footnotes?

I have noticed that the Citation template lists the author's last name first, first name last (e.g., Shakespeare, William, 134). This makes sense in an alphabetized bibliography, not in a footnote. Why is it set up this way? Is there a style guide which approves this format? Thanks.Editor437 (talk) 02:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The citation templates are designed primarily for making full citations in reference lists. That said, their use in footnotes has become common. I don't think any readers are likely to be confused by this. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is a style guide that approves the format. It would be nice to have more sophistication, though. I haven't been able to find a correct bibliographical form: full stops, rather than commas. Also, the last-name/first-name reversal repeats with the co-authors, which is redundant. qp10qp (talk) 10:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Making sure to point out the page numbers

One advantage of parenthetical citing is that you are forced to point out page numbers. It seems fairly common on here not to do that. Now, the Find function (CTRL-F) is powerful, but not everyone is aware of it. I'm curious: where do I fit these notes in on a footnote citation template, say the cite journal one? I would think location, but the examples have places (e.g. Berlin) in location. ImpIn | (t - c) 02:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a "pages=" field in most of the citation templates. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Err, yeah. I was thinking of a more specific place to put the particular page with the statement rather than all the pages of the article, but I suppose I should just add see <particular pages> to that section. ImpIn | (t - c) 03:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I would assume that the field could be used either to show all the pages of an article/chapter/etc., if you were making a general reference, or a specific page if you were citing a particular fact. I can't imagine when you would want to show both a range of pages and a specific page within that range, though. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah. You make a good point. I guess this was sort of a dumb thing to bring up. But when you cite to a particular page, you can't use the reference again, and have to do a new footnote. And that's a hassle. But when you cite generally, people have to search. Personally, I think that many papers could be cited by page number alone in-text; if there's an anchor, the author and date is unnecessary. ImpIn | (t - c) 03:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

You can solve this problem by creating a subsection under References to house those general citations, and then use inline cites with page numbers to reference them. See an example of this at University of Tennessee Forensic Anthropology Facility. So long as the article doesn't use multiple sources from the same author written in the same year, the results are very easy to interpret. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 04:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

You're describing shortened notes. See Wikipedia:Citing sources#Shortened notes, or (for a longer list of examples) see Wikipedia:Verification methods#Shortened notes. This is the most popular method for citing several pages of the same source. (There are a few other methods, such as {{Rp}}). ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 04:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't like shortened notes at all. {{Rp}} is much better, and sort of what I was looking for. For large works used often in a complex article, however, in-text referencing of the page numbers is better in my mind because you end up creating less of a mess of footnotes, and you point them directly to the work in question. ImpIn | (t - c) 00:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Where's the help? Just awful as basic guidance

I make a few Wikipedia edits a week. I know citing sources is important. So why is the "help" for doing this so garbled and disorganized? I have to troll through paragraphs on different citation styles, lots of WP:This and WP:That, links to subsections, links to absurdly complex tables of reference templates. Nothing explains the difference between cite and ref and footnotes, or summarizes the most useful templates. So every single time I give up and just copy the wiki text of a nearby citation (or reference?), I have no idea if the one I copied is done right or not.

Please, provide editors one simple guide to doing the right thing, and make sure all the other pages feature a link to that simple guide early on.

• Help:Citations quick reference is too bare-bones. The examples don't look like decent references, and the column "In References" doesn't explain how to make a reference.
• Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners is promising, but it doesn't give any guidance on standard formats or templates, it's flagged as "just an opinion", and it's longer than Help:Footnotes.
• Wikipedia:Embedded citations adds insult to injury by saying "For details about the other inline citation methods see Wikipedia:Citing sources." I don't want details, I want the basics. 95% of Wikipedia editors agree! [citation needed]

I shouldn't have to understand the difference between cite, ref, and footnote just to respond to the endless "citation needed" exhortations. If I do, then explain them to me, don't assume anything.

I think it's as simple as, if the document already has a References section, just add <ref>{{some standard citation template|its params...}}</ref> after the text. But I sure didn't learn that by reading all these pages.

Thanks for listening, now I'm off to make a citation reference footnote, badly -- Skierpage (talk) 04:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, there's a lot of noise on the page. This is true for almost all Wikipedia documentation...I believe it may be difficult to change, but let's try. ImpIn | (t - c) 04:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this page is too long and poorly organized, especially for the beginner. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 12:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with this well-formed request, working this, slowly. JJB 15:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions:

1. The overhead banner should be shortened somewhat. The WP:CITING should be changed to WP:CITEWIKIPEDIA or WP:CITEWIKI; WP:CITING should redirect here.
2. The intro paragraph should have a description of the basic ways to cite, anchored links to "how to write" each of these, and perhaps an anchored list to "why to cite". At the moment it is redundant.
3. Why sources should be cited should be moved down to after the basic rundown of how to write ect.
4. "Use of terms" section can be relegated to a footnote.
5. In the intro, it should be noted that citations are not always necessary, with an anchored link to the "When to cite sources"; however, this is common sense, and thus that section should be put after the practical details.
6. The "How to cite sources" section can be cleaned up significantly into a to the point, practical explanation.
7. Tools should be emphasized immediately in the How to Cite section, as they are very useful. Nobody has time to hand-write really good citations when they're volunteering. I use the Google Scholar Wikify tool a fair amount. Attempts should be made to give different tools short, distinct, and descriptive names.
8. Structuring citation templates so that they cover much of the page irritates me (this is how the above tool does it by default). If possible, we should come to some sort of consensus on this. I'll take this moment to remind people that we can remove citation templates from the prose itself by voting for Bugzilla:12796. ImpIn | (t - c) 00:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Could you make each of these suggestions under a different topic? I.e., make a headline for each of these? It's hard to comment on a things in a numbered list. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 12:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

A headline for each? Don't you think that's excessive? I'll start with the intro paragraph ImpIn | (t - c) 00:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Revising the intro paragraph: currently redundantly goes over style

Currently the intro paragraph redundantly repeats the information in the headline: that this is a style guideline. It would be better if it summarized the article and succinctly pointed people to the different methods, how to use them, and the tools available. It should be noted briefly that citations are not always necessary, with an anchored link to the "When to cite sources"; however, this is common sense, and thus that section should not be given undue weight. The focus here should be on telling people how to cite, rather than explaining why. ImpIn | (t - c) 00:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Reference section fold up

Does Reference section in a big article will be fold up to occpying fixed height whatever how much.219.68.144.162 (talk) 07:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't do it, because it won't print. This was discussed before. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 12:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep. see Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Scrolling_lists. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 02:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Dead link guidance

I have a PDF that was published by the Utah Department of Transportation that I downloaded in July 2007 from http://www.udot.utah.gov/download.php/tid=1348/StateRouteHistory.pdf . On first look, it seems to be in the Internet Archive, but those links don't actually work. I uploaded it to [2], but that won't stay up forever. Some of the information is not in other documents. What should I do here? Remove the URL and say "document downloaded from http://www.udot.utah.gov/download.php/tid=1348/StateRouteHistory.pdf in July 2007, but no longer online"? An example of a current reference to it can be seen at [3]. --NE2 21:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Language

I hope i am not sounding biased or bad or anything. I am just wondering whether if references have to be or at least should be in english\english translation. Looking at the recent 2008 Iwate earthquake, a good number of the references are in Japanese, for example. Simply south (talk) 01:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. Preference is given to English sources of equal quality, but sources do not have to be in English, though translations are encouraged. Read up at the link for more details. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I really want Wikipedia to make a rule, that if you are contribution to a community you speak their languages and you use sources from their language. You are not allow to cite info from other languages, because using other languages automatically give you an advanatage without any intentions.

Because many languages itself have different grammar, and by using any translation software, there is a good chance that mistake would happen. Unless somebody genius can make a reliable sources, like converting the words into XML data and semantic constraints and then translate into some sort of standard language format(made by an recognized association) in a script, it is very hard to know if any errors are made. Also a lot of words itself have connotations which foreigners won't know even if they translate (like humor), so the intentions and implications can be easily mistaken.

--Ramu50 (talk) 18:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

How is using a foreign language source different, for our purposes, than using a rare book as a source? (By the way, we do allow books to be used as sources.) --Gerry Ashton (talk) 20:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand that Wikipedia is trying to accept every single language sources without being racist and sexist, elimination of minority groups...etc. But I found that a lot article in Wikipedia which contain other language sources, they are usually not registered user. Also the article they contribute, if you look at their user history, they don't have more than 3 relevant contribution to the topic. So say if they are contribution to graphic card, usually if you look at their history, they don'thave more than 3 contribution in any topic relevant to computers.

So the questions arises, first how do we even know he/she have a roughly good understanding of the topic, if he doesn't contribute to relevant topic. Second I think they should be probably start with contributing to other Wikipedia, instead starting the official Wikipedia. There is one version of Wikipedia that uses lower level english for foreigners.

Ok if remove the language rules, then please tell me how you can solve the language problem. Because in Language

Problem 1: Connotation problem, connotations usually require you to understanding something about the people, the culture and history and we don't have time for. The meaning would change totally, since in some languages joking is okay (like in Britain) while in more Asian Oceanian countries it is not okay.

Problem 2: Non-existant word problem. Some language often refer to things like proverb, idoms which derive from a small region only, people who don't speak their language or don't live there will have no idea what they are talking about.

Problem 3: Reliable sources. Some people cite things from China, but the Chinese government restrict what is allow to be on the Web Server, so how do we know that the information is reliable. (Without freedom of speech, how we know who is right and wrong).

--Ramu50 (talk) 16:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not discriminate against its users. Just because English isn't a user's primary language does not mean they should be barred from editing here. Yes, they could have edited at their language's site, but they chose this one. Also, how do we know that anyone that edits any given article has a "good" understanding of the topic? We don't, which is why we require valid sources to back up those edits.

The core issue here, however, is the appearance that your proposal would call non-English sources as less reliable than English sources. How can we possibly justify such a mindset? Regarding your points:

1. Yes, some cultures treat humour in writing in different ways, but most respectable media are going to write in a manner befitting their industry, and will not use sarcasm (for example) is such a strong way that it cannot be easily distinguishable from the true content. After that, it is up to the reader to determine the intent of those words.
2. I don't see how this is an issue. That idiom comprises but one small part of the overall source, and is likely to not interfere with the overall meaning. If it does, then don't use that source.
3. We, as readers, cannot know if any given thing we read has been butchered by another person or group seeking to censor material. Unless it is just blatantly done, we don't know if any given thing is trying to push a point-of-view (which almost any written source is going to do, intentional or otherwise). My point is that reading other people's work is an inherent risk...you don't know if it is correct. However, if the publication is considered to be a trusted entity, part of that trust is passed on to its writers.

Check out WP:VUE, which states that English sources are preferred over non-English ones, since this is the English Wikipedia. But there are times when the information being sought simply cannot be found in an English source, due to it being a matter of local or cultural importance, or whatever. In the end, this is an open encyclopedia. We can request that sources be in English as a courtesy to readers, but to outright banish all other languages goes against the spirit this site, and all of Wikimedia, tries to establish. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 19:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

References

When describing the beliefs of a particular religious group, is it acceptable to use the group's website as a source, and list the website as such? In this case there is little published material to use. Rev107 (talk) 01:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Further reading/External links

The Citing sources project page section on Further reading/External links says...

An ==External links== or ==Further reading== or ==Bibliography== section is placed near the end of an article and offers books, articles, and links to websites related to the topic that might be of interest to the reader. The section "Further reading" may include both online material and material not available online. If all recommended material is online, the section may be titled "External links".

All items used as sources in the article must be listed in the "References" or "Notes" section, and are usually not included in "Further reading" or "External links" [...]

If the term Bibliography is taken to mean - a list of source materials that are used or consulted in the preparation of a work or that are referred to in the text (i.e. a dictionary definition of the term) - then I don't think we should encourage the section heading Bibliography as synonymous with Further reading/External links. If all items used as sources in the article must be listed in the "References" or "Notes" section, and are usually not included in "Further reading" or "External links" then using the name Bibliography as a synonym for "Further reading" or "External links" just invites confusion.

If anything, the term Bibliography should instead be an allowable synonym for the References section.

I propose making changes to project page on that basis. --SallyScot (talk) 22:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd also say that the term Bibliography is suggestive of a more systematic arrangement than simply the same running order in which they're first cited in the article text [4][5][6]. - As such, the term is best reserved for alphabetised ordered reference lists as used with parenthetical (author-date) referencing or with shortened notes. The term Bibliography shouldn't really be synonymous with Reference sections generated via <ref> tags as these are not so ordered and can also include other types of footnotes (discursive/narrative notes). --SallyScot (talk) 19:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Merger discussion at Template:citation

There is a preliminary discussion at Template talk:citation#Proposal to merge redundant citation templates that might be of interest to folks here. ASHill (talk | contribs) 13:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Multiple citation templates in "ref" tags

Does putting multiple citation templates within a single set of <ref> tags cause problems? Here's an example:

<ref>{{citation|author=Beth Neil|title=Gethin to know you: Exclusive: Blue Peter star is now strictly sex|url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/showbiz/2007/12/08/gethin-to-know-you-89520-20221195/|newspaper=[[Daily Mirror]]|date=[[2007-12-08]]}}; {{citation|title=Who's danced their way to the number 6 slot?|url=http://www.heatworld.com/Article/3653/Gethin+Jones/Whos+danced+their+way+to+the+Number+6+slot|magazine=[[Heat (magazine)|Heatworld.com]]|date=[[2007-12-28]]|accessdate=2008-01-19}}.</ref>

NYScholar says it does, but I haven't encountered any issues. I usually view Wikipedia with Internet Explorer. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 15:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I would at least separate these on bulleted lines so they are not slammed together as they currently are in Gethin Jones (reference 26 has 8 citations back to back). You also need to fix the first link, as it is busted. Frankly, I don't think this method fixes anything— you do away with the multiple ref links in the body, but end up with these back to back cites. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the useful formatting advice, but that doesn't answer the question whether multiple citation templates within a single set of <ref> tags actually fails to render properly. Also, in what way is the first link (in footnote 26 or footnote 1?) "busted"? It works fine on my computer. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 18:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, multiple citation templates within a single ref render properly. And the link now works, so forget that. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

That's been my experience too. However, NYScholar claims that when there are multiple citations in a single footnote, the external links do not appear properly: see the discussion at "Talk:Jason Isaacs". Has anyone else has encountered this issue, and does it need to be investigated further? If so, by whom? Personally, I see nothing wrong with the use of multiple citations in this way. It's a common usage in printed works. As far as I can tell, there is nothing in "Wikipedia:Citing sources" that deprecates the practice. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 18:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I would have to see a specific example of a problem. I have seen this method before and I wondered how it would affect linking and machine readability. Testing the links both manually and with LinkChecker reveals no problems and Zotero picks up all of the links. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

anchor to references section

Under the heading Under the heading "How to write them" the following text appears:

Creating an anchor to the References section is highly recommended e.g. (Ritter 2002:40). To cite Ritter one would first create an anchor to Ritter's work in the References section:

<cite id=Ritter2002>* Ritter, R. (2002). ''The Oxford Style Manual''. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-860564-1</cite>

When I cut and paste the above anchor, as it appears after being interpreted by the system (i.e., beginning with "<cite id=" and leaving out "nowiki" and "blockquote") into the sandbox and select "preview," the system does not interpret the asterisk as a bullet, and the reference is preceded by an asterisk rather than a bullet. I believe that the asterisk should come before "<cite id=Ritter2002>" rather than after. When the asterisk is moved to before "<cite id=" it is correctly interpreted as a bullet.

If this is correct, then someone authorized to do so (unlike me) may want to correct the entry by moving the asterisk. Neuroscientist1 (talk) 21:54, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. (PS. It's a wiki - you have authority ) :) --SallyScot (talk) 22:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Discursive notes

...earlier part archived...

...later part archived...

Doesn't look like this will happen without a wiki developer to sponsor it. Shame 'cos I thought it was quite a good idea. --SallyScot (talk) 17:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

---

Developments with Footnotes mean that it's now possible to maintain two (or more) sets of footnotes via the reference tag. The group extension of the ref tag doesn't produce a list style type of lower-roman numerals ( ^{(i),(ii),(iii)}, etc.), which I'd suggested might be good with a new <nb> tag, but instead includes the specified group identifier along with regular Arabic numerals in the generated link references. Example code and rendering as shown below.

Code...

Example text,<ref group=nb>This is an example discursive note</ref> more example text.<ref group=nb name=Discursive>Discursive notes can be shown separately from references or citations - giving a neater appearing alternative compared to having mixed "Notes and references" or "Notes and citations" sections. This is an example of such a note. It is generated via use of group extension of the reference tag.</ref> A point made with a supporting reference.<ref>Author, A. (2007). "How to cite references", New York: McGraw-Hill.</ref> A second appearance of a note.<ref group=nb name=Discursive/> 

== Notes ==
<references group=nb/> 

== References == 
<references/>

Rendering...

Example text, more example text. A point made with a supporting reference. A second appearance of a note.

Notes

References

--SallyScot (talk) 15:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

A description of this method has been added at WP:FN, but clarity eludes me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it would still be good if something like <nb>+<notes/> tags could be developed, and though I've posted this before and elsewhere I'd just like to say the reason I suggested a list style type of lower-roman numerals ^{(i),(ii),(iii)}, etc. rather than the use of alphabetic letters, which seem to be favoured by some others in proposing <note> tags, is not only that you can easily go beyond 26 notes, but principally that it avoids any clash with the alphabetic letters already used in back-links with multiple use of references sharing the same name, as in the example shown above ( 2. ^ ^{a b} ).

I also thought the tag <nb> in combination with <notes/> would be more concise than <note>, with the abbreviation paralleling the existing use of <ref> and <references/> tags.

--SallyScot (talk) 23:48, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I started a discussion at Template talk:Reflist; we have a sandboxed update to add the notes list. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The trouble with Roman numerals is that some of the resulting numbers are really chunky and intrusive. Normal letters look good, I think, and anyone who goes above 26 discursive notes in one article deserves to run out of letters, if you ask me. I have to say that I don't mind the system with two sets of numbers, since the word "note" distinguishes them clearly enough. qp10qp (talk) 16:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

General solution for people running out of letter is to continue with aa, ab, ac....zz which adds over a thousand combinations... If you run out of those..... Arnoutf (talk) 17:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Alphabetic letters are already used in back-links with multiple use of references sharing the same name. Using letters would mean you could get a clashing and confusing list of explanatory notes that looked something like this...

...

Notes

a. ^ ^{a b} This is an example discursive note.

b. ^ Here's an explanatory note.

c. ^ ^{a b} Explanatory notes and discursive notes are two terms meaning the same thing.

--SallyScot (talk) 17:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, you need to reach number twenty-eight before any occurrence of Roman numerals goes above five characters.^(xxviii) - And number eighteen before any occurrence over four characters.^(xviii) - With the majority of numbers below eighteen being made of three or less characters, like the number sixteen for example.^(xvi) --SallyScot (talk) 18:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I still think they look gross. qp10qp (talk) 18:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

But now you don't know why :) --SallyScot (talk) 19:32, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The alphabetic backlinks appear to only be on this site, others use the default decimal numbering. So if they are confusing, there should be a way to format alphabetic links in the default format. -Steve Sanbeg (talk) 20:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

A switch to make backlinks use ordinary numbering would only shift the potential for confusion away from the proposed alphabetized Notes section to the existing numbered References section. Like this...

...

Notes

a. ^ ^{1 2} This is an example discursive note.

b. ^ Here's an explanatory note.

c. ^ ^{1 2} Explanatory notes and discursive notes are two terms meaning the same thing.

References

1. ^ ^{a b} Author, A. (2007). "How to cite references", New York: McGraw-Hill.

2. ^ Other, Anne. (2006). "How to include explanatory notes", Liberty Press.

3. ^ ^{a b} Someone, Elsie. (2008). "Notes and References in electronic documents ", Online Books.

And it's because regular numbers are used already in existing Reference lists, and because alphabetic letters are used already as backlinks, and that these things are already established that I thought it might be an idea to use lower case roman numerals for any new explanatory Notes lists.

--SallyScot (talk) 17:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Primary source is wrong, secondary sources are right

I authored a Featured Article, Marjory Stoneman Douglas, that apparently has an error in it attributed to the source, not the article. The issue is that Douglas was involved in the Coconut Grove Slum Clearance Committee with a friend named Elizabeth Virrick. Based on Douglas' autobiography and her transcribed oral history on a site sponsored by Florida International University, the date in the article for her involvement is the 1920s. It has been pointed out to me by someone who is cited in the article - a Douglas scholar named Jack Davis - that the Committee was not active until 1948. So I have two primary sources that state the 1920s, and a scholar and this site as well as a few others that verify it was not active until 1948.

So now I'm embarrassed because I wrote it and it's well-cited with two *2* primary sources that are incorrect. Douglas was 93 and 98 years old when she gave the interviews for those primary sources. Acquaintances asserted she was mentally sharp until the day she died at 108. How do I amend the citation? --Moni3 (talk) 15:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

It is extremely common for sources to be wrong, and they are sometimes ridiculously wrong. I also find that two similar things often coalesce over time, causing confusion (perhaps they started with a less formal committee that is not officially documented). I would mention both sides in the notes. This will add to the objectivity of the article rather than undermine it. qp10qp (talk) 16:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Being mentally sharp does not mean that you have a perfect memory (see e.g. Elisabeth Loftus work on memory). In principal secondary sources evaluating the interviews are to be preferred over literal interviews. Arnoutf (talk) 16:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I realize sources sometimes contradict each other, but this is the first time I've come across secondary sources contradicting two primary ones. So, I need to change the article to reflect the Committee was started in 1948, but how to cite that is the question. Do I need a regular (ref) then (note)? Or two refs or what? --Moni3 (talk) 17:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the primary sources are wrong. The primary sources truthfully reflect Marjory Stoneman Douglas at the time of those interviews/texts. Her memory was wrong (which has less to do with cognitive functioning then often thought - hence my link to Loftus).

Practically I would suggest something like "In later life Douglas attested being part of the Coconut Grove Slum Clearance Committee in the 1920's (primary sources). However she must have been confused in either the name of the committee, or (whatever the 2ndary sources say) as this specific committee did not exist until the 1940's (secondary sources)." Does this help? Arnoutf (talk) 17:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

No need to be elaborate. Just choose which version you want in the article. Then the balancing note can say something like either "Douglas claimed that the committee existed in the 1920s" or "Davis says that the committee was not active until 1948". Done. qp10qp (talk) 17:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Please be careful though, I am not sure that is the claim. The actual claim appears to be "Douglas claimed to be member of the committee in the 1920s" which may either imply confusion about the foundation of the committee (ie she was member of that committee; but thought it was much longer ago) or between committees (ie she was member of a similar committee in the 1920's and confused that with a later committee she also joined). Arnoutf (talk) 17:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Links in footnotes to newsarticles requiring payment for access

I have a question regarding the appropriateness of including an http link in a reference to a newspaper article, if this link leads to a short abstract/excerpt of the article on the newspaper's site, where payment is required to access the full version of the article. I am unsure on this issue myself. Many newspapers, such as New York Times, Los Angeles Times, etc, have archival sections for older articles where payment (usually a few dollars) is required to see the article. Doing googlenews searches often leads to such sites. On one hand, icluding a link like that in a reference (rather than just giving a plain text reference, with the publication name, date, etc), makes it easier for people who really want to verify the information cited or maybe learn more about it, to access such information quickly. Paying $3.95 to read an article is easier than going to the library, and, with the gasoline prices being what they are, it may even be cheaper as well -:). On the other hand, providing a footnoted reference link to a non-free site might look like a form of advertisement or commercial endorsement of a particular site.

Is there a policy/guideline or at least some preferred WP convention regarding how to deal with this issue? Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 14:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, if the {{cite news}} template or a similar one is used, it reminds the editor of all of the fields that should be provided and these include the published date, page and other information. Be aware that some pages are free when cited and become pay at a later date. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but what about the appropriateness (or not) of including a url when using {{cite news}} if that url does require payment to begin with? Do you have any suggestions regarding that? Nsk92 (talk) 18:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Including a URL is fine; generally, subscription websites should not be linked under "external links", but this does not apply to citations. However, I don't think it is necessary if you are giving the rest of the necessary information. If it were me, I would include the URL if I had accessed the material online myself. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:36, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. That was exactly the case with the link I included (from LA Times archives): I did pay first and have read the full text of the article before linking it. I wish there was some explicit guidance regarding this issue in some WP policy or guideline, though... Nsk92 (talk) 18:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Placement of Citations

In the HP7 article, an editor reviewed the article in regards to a GA nomination, and said that all the citations in the article should be at the end of sentences. As far as I know, this was never neccessary. Would the citations have to be at the end of the sentences in regard to this article? ~ Bella Swan^? 13:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

No. They are usually best placed at the end of sentences, but sometimes it is necessary to place them at the end of clauses. qp10qp (talk) 15:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Like Bella, I've encountered the same problem with some GA reviewers who have insisted that all footnotes must appear at the ends of sentences and after punctuation; I've even been asked to insert punctuation marks where none were required to comply with this rule. This is clearly wrong, as "Wikipedia:Citing sources#Ref tags and punctuation" states: "Material may be referenced mid-sentence, but footnotes are usually placed at the end of a sentence or paragraph. Footnotes at the end of a sentence or phrase are normally placed immediately after the punctuation..." [emphasis added]. I think the correct approach should be as follows:

• A reference should be placed after the fact it supports.
• If possible, a reference should be placed at the end of a sentence after the punctuation mark.
• However, if a sentence contains more than one fact that requires referencing, and there is already a reference at the end of the sentence, the additional references should be placed after the facts occurring in the middle of the sentence, preferably after punctuation marks.

— Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 15:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks. ~ Bella Swan^? 21:11, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The above editors are correct that footnotes can appear at the end of sentences, clauses, or even individual words as appropriate. It is worth pointing out that the guideline no longer indicates a clear preference for before or after punctuation, although the after punctuation method is more common. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:16, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

"The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged."

Proposal

In relation to the above point. Citation templates have two advantages: firstly, they allow a consistent style to be applied to the whole of the site. Secondly, and of particular interest to me, they make citation data machine readable. This is A Good Thing because:

1. It allows the citation data to be expanded and maintained by bots (for instance, adding DOIs or URLs)
2. It allows readers to easily find a copy of the text they can read, perhaps with software provided by their university or library
3. It allows citation data to be easily copied and translated into another format, or saved into for example CiteULike.

I can't see any advantage to not using a citation template.

Therefore I'd propose that the above rider is replaced with something along the lines of "Where appropriate, an appropriate citation template should be used". Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 13:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Yes, good idea! --EnOreg (talk) 14:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Bad idea. There are at least these disadvantages to using the citation templates

• It takes longer, if you know what you're doing, to cut and paste all the separate fiddly bits with equals signs into the required citation template format, or to enter the components of the citation separately.
• Idiosyncratic references often require fonts and formats which the templates will not render, or will not do easily. If you have some of these, it is simpler to leave off the rest of the templates.
  • I also dislike the imposed format of last name first. It doesn't work well for sources from antiquity or from outside Europe, and it makes linking more difficult. The chief reason print sources adopt it is to make alphabetization mechanical, but we don't have printers' devils to do that for us.
• The format, often adopted, of one line for each element of the citation templates makes them very difficult to read or understand in edit space; even if not, they are noticeably harder to read than hand-formatted references, which just add an occasional '' to the form in text.

There's enough "let's make it policy to do it my way" around Wikipedia; let's not have any more. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Re your first point, there are plenty of plugins, scripts and bots which make adding a template much quicker, and much less prone to human error, than formatting them by hand. More importantly, this change won't ban anyone from entering references how they wish – it only acts as a guideline, to format references to make them more useful to readers – nobody is going to turn round to you and say "your contribution violated the MOS, therefore was worthless". The only people who end up reading these pages are those concerned about style Those getting bogged down in the style guidelines are unlikely to be those whose key interest in Wikipedia is in developing a reliable, comprehensive, universally useful encyclopaedia. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 19:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

That will only be true when FA and GA are fixed, or deleted, which will not be before WP:DEADLINE. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Re your second point: I can't think of any examples where this is the case. Could you provide some?

• Giovanni Boccaccio; Genealogie Deorum Gentilium Libri. ed. Vincenzo Romano. Vol. X and XI of Opere, Bari 1951.
  • Both ed. and the volumes would have to be handcoded; the templates seem to have problems with ed. and tr. in general, especially keeping them lowercase.
• Natalis Comes: Mythologiae siue explicationis fabularum libri decem; translated as Natale Conti’s Mythologiae, translated and annotated by John Mulryan and Steven Brown; Arizona Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies, 2006. ISBN 9780866983617
  • You might be able to do half of this (although I'm not sure the apostrophe would survive) with {{cite book}}, but as long as the other half has to be done by hand, why bother? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• Granted, they'd be a nightmare to push through a template. But I think I'll fall back on my "Where appropriate" clause in the proposed re-wording; the onus to fit it into a citation template would then lie upon any future editor who wished to argue that the "where appropriate" didn't apply. The templates could easily be re-written to include a "translated by" parameter, in any case. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 19:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Re the third point, templates allow any format of author name, using the author = parameter

Your final point may well be valid, but I feel that the benefits to readers outweigh the difficulties to editors. (You may also be interested in discussion for how to remedy the problem of syntax-laden references; links, I think, can be found at WP:CITE).

Finally, the policy isn't intended to make people "do it my way", but to make people do it "the best way". I'm convinced that there are an array of positives to having references arranged in a consistent and machine readable fashion, not least that it saves people a lot of searching for versions of the reference they can access.

That's true of everybody's demand that we all do it their way. See WP:TRUTH. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Which is why I opened up a discussion. I'm more than open to be convinced that the way I proposed isn't the best! Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 19:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Please don't take the suggestion as a personal attack. I just viewed it as an opportunity to increase the amount of articles improved by DOI bot, and at which I can access references without having to go through the rigmarole of a library search. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 18:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

And please take my responses in the same spirit. Any proposal to change the way Wikipedia works for the convenience of a bot misunderstands what we depend on: the willingness of the unpaid to do this for a hobby. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course. But the reason I love bots is that they make it much easier for me, as another volunteer editor, to verify and expand articles from their cited sources. I completely respect your preference for entering citations in plain text – indeed I never intended this proposal to stop anybody from doing so. I simply hoped that it would give the "cleanup squad" the incentive to make references easier to access for the people who are most likely to access them – those at institutions which have access to primary literature, and use software to provide that access. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 18:49, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Smith609's comment that there are many plugins to help with editing, the presence of the templates impedes editing by those who choose not to use these, or by those using a computer where they have limited authority and can't install a plugin.

Good point - though most of the "plugins" to which I referred do not require installation on a computer - simply editing of a wikipedia user page. See my user page for information on a couple. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 19:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding examples of sources for which templates are not suitable, note that there is a limited set of "Cite xxx" templates, and some of those are either not good enough to use, or not well documented enough to use. The Citation template attempts to identify the type of publication by which parameters are specified, so it can only identify "a book, periodical, or a chapter in a compilation" [7]. Some examples of things that either are not supported, or which one could not guess are supported by looking at the names of the templates, are:

• Computer programs
• Computer databases
• Public records (e.g. birth certificate, land deed, survey plat)

--Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:54, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to return to the "Where appropriate" clause in my proposal here. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 19:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Although most of the articles I edit regularly do use citation templates, and I find them helpful, I think that making them preferred for general use further raises the already-high bar for new editors; just typing in

Charles Dickens (1859). ''A Tale of Two Cities,'' p. 123

is a lot easier to understand and remember than

{{cite book | author=Charles Dickens | title=A Tale of Two Cities | year=1859 | page=123}}

(Aside: the spirit of the comment in the documentation "If you don't know how to format a citation, provide as much information as you can, and others will help to write it correctly." needs to shouted from the rooftops far more often that in its.) ASHill (talk | contribs) 19:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

This might be a workable idea if there were citation templates for anything other than APA-style citations; but, since neither MLA-style nor CMS-style citation is presently supported by templates, arbitrarily converting everything to them will make a lot of articles more difficult to read—there are perfectly good reasons why APA is not universally used—for minimal and largely theoretical benefits.

(It'd also violate the "don't change optional styles" rule, incidentally.) Kirill ^(prof) 01:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Given the discussion above, I suggest that the present wording in the guideline sums up the situation perfectly. Leave well alone, I say. qp10qp (talk) 01:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I want to add my choice to those saying no. I dislike the templates, they are cumbersome and unintuitive to some editors. I also wish to address the point there are plenty of plugins, scripts and bots which make adding a template much quicker, - yes, if you are savy enough to know how to use bots, scripts and plug ins. I'm not dumb, but I haven't figured them out yet. A lot of editors have no background in computers and we need their contributions. I'm happy just to work manually, assuming that I'm not lumbered with tons of regulations mandating that I use complicated templates. Sabine's Sunbird talk 02:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Also no. I agree with Sabine's Sunbird. Ty 05:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Citation templates are awkward in the prose itself, making it much more difficult to edit articles. This was raised in the discussion "Citation templates considered harmful". Wmitchell programmed a solution to this problem Bugzilla:12796, but until it is fixed, I personally oppose the use of citation templates. II 05:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Just in case anyone says that silence is consent for this change. I don't like citation templates either. I can live with them in the References section but dislike them in the text where I think short notes are less intrusive and easier to handle. I especially dislike citations being changed en masse from without to with Citation templates (or vice versa) because it makes for very big diffs in articles which make it difficult to track significant changes to the text. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 00:00, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Typos in quotes

Should typos in references (either printed or internet-based) be transcribed as-is when quoting from the source? - 74.75.99.2 (talk) 23:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, unless a different source can be found without the typo, in which case the other source could be cited instead. --Trovatore (talk) 23:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes. The reason one ought to transcribe a quote verbatim is that it is not up to the quoter to determine whether or not the original author made a mistake. There are other methods of correcting these problems, and vigilante grammatical adjustment isn't an obligation of a person quoting a reference. This also alleviates problems of a quoter thinking that they are correcting something, when in fact, they could be changing something form its correct form to something different and wrong. Nicklink483 (talk) 06:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

You may follow a misspelling within a quote with [sic], to indicate that it is not a transcription error. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 17:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Brampton City Hall

The architect was Robert J. Posliff —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob Posliff (talk • contribs) 06:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Linking reference retrieved dates

I am lost when it comes to the linking of retrieved dates used in the reference section. What is the purpose of linking the retrieved date? The current featured articles make use of this practice, yet this style guide makes no mention of it other than the suggestion of hiding the retrieved date

"....and a comment with the date you retrieved it if it is online (invisible to the reader)."

I understand the value of posting the retrieved date, but I can see no value in linking it. If the policy has changed to include linked retrieved dates in the reference section, as is being done by featured articles, then this guide line needs to be updated; otherwise the review process for featured and good articles needs to be updated. Dbiel ^(Talk) 17:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion dates are among the most overlinked Wikilinks. Especially those in references seem irrelevant. (Cynically) I think the reason to wikilink retrieval dates in references is to show how advanced we are in programming template codes. Arnoutf (talk) 17:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

(1) That suggestion is made specifically about newspaper articles, which have print equivalents and are generally stable. Online-only material, which is subject to change, should include a visible reference date. (2) Whether full dates of this type should be linked is a matter of some dispute; some believe that it is beneficial to enable user date-format preferences, while others believe that it creates link clutter to generate so many links. Either practice is acceptable; generally, be consistent within an article. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

If the policy has changed to include linked retrieved dates in the reference section, as is being done by featured articles, ... This is an incomplete understanding of current guidelines. See discussion at WP:MOSDATE and many other places. It is now an issue within the citation templates, waiting to be resolved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually the guideline does not directly address the issue of linking retrieved dates used in reference links. It might also be my lack of understanding of what a date link is. Is it a tool to enable user date-format preferences, or is it link back to articles on various dates? Dbiel ^(Talk) 22:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

It is strictly for autoformatting purposes. If an archived version of the page is being used, we have the archiveurl and archivedate parameters for linking to an old copy. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 23:07, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

General and inline refs in the same article

I have asked a question here about whether citing general references and inline references in the same article is considered a violation of WP:CITE#HOW's requirement for an internally consistent style. Your comments are welcome on that page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe the best approach is to list inline citations under "Notes and References" with a Reflist tamplate and general citations under "Further reading" with a Refbegin/Refend template, together with external web links.

Sv1xv (talk) 09:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Reference Space

I was over at French Wikipedia yesterday, and noticed that they had a Reference Space (i.e. an entire region of wiki dedicated to holding complete bibliographic data of references used in wikipedia articles), and I was wondering if this kind of option has been discussed before (I tried googling the archives to see if this had already been discussed, but didn't find anything, sorry if I missed something). As a user who mainly edits mathematics articles, this would be wonderful. The same "classic" references come up time and again on different articles, and as it is now, I try to think about which article I've previously used the reference I want on, then I go there, open up that edit page, copy the entry, and paste it the page I'm adding it, too. Not only does this seem like a waste of time, but also a waste of space. On the french wiki, you basically just use a template that cites "author, title" and it links to the reference space entry (and the requirement for admission into reference space is that it be used on at least one wiki page). Furthermore, there are bots running around english wiki finding references and adding "doi" tags and such to them. As an interesting side effect, you can find out which articles link to the given reference. Anyways, I'll stop here. RobHar (talk) 14:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Basically you suggest creating a BibTex or Endnote style bibliographical database that can be accessed from articles? Sounds like a good idea to me. Arnoutf (talk) 14:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

{{doi}} may be along the lines of what you're looking for, at least for any article in an academic journal with a DOI. You do have to know the DOI of the source, but once you (or DOI bot) have entered the details, you only have to enter the DOI in the future and a full citation will be generated. ASHill (talk | contribs) 16:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like Wikipedia to become a great repository of bibliographies. This could begin with the bibliographies at the bottom of articles, but I'd like to see far more separate-page booklists than we have at the moment. My reason is that it is not so easy for a non-academics to find good book lists reliably. Wikipedia is often acknowledged, even by sceptics, as a good first stop for information: what better resource for a first stop than to offer bibliographies?

It also seems to me a terrible waste that after looking up information, we usually leave no greater footprint of our reading than a page number. I would like to see each article have a hideable set of notes which could contain much more information than the present space-tight system allows. Editors could create vaults of discursive notes and quotations from primary and secondary sources that would be opened by the note tags. Personally, I would probably find this more interesting than the articles, as footnotes provide a layer of background information that is less mediated. I'd like to see note-vaults that contain not just references but scholarly provenances, showing how the scholarship for a particular point of information has evolved over the years. This would entail lists of books and very knot-gardens of cross-referencing. qp10qp (talk) 16:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

That is another issue entirely; this post is about supporting editors who are constructing reference lists. As far as I am concerned not a very good idea either as collapsible information is not very printer friendly, and it includes new POV fork options for many articles. Separate lists, perhaps, standard large sections further reading, no. Arnoutf (talk) 16:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Do printed books have DOI's? RobHar (talk) 18:07, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Not normally. A similar template that does the same thing given an ISBN would be nice. {{isbn}}? ASHill (talk | contribs) 18:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

So, is there a better place for me to bring this up? How would one go about making this happen? RobHar (talk) 16:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Ack; I realize now that I meant {{cite doi}} as along the lines of what you're looking for. I don't have the expertise to create a {{cite isbn}} (or something similar), but the maintainer of User:DOI bot would probably be a good person to ask. ASHill (talk | contribs) 16:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I meant more for the creation of a reference space like the one French wiki has. I suppose the cite isbn template would be a good start. Thanks for the help. RobHar (talk) 16:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a wonderful idea!

It would at a stroke solve the problems of manually adding references, and of references cluttering up the edit view when you try to edit a well referenced page.

I had created a system whereby one would simply add "{{cite doi|10.1029/restofthedoi}}" into a page, and a bot would look up the DOI, and create the reference in "reference space".

However, the English are clearly less optimistic than the French, as my attempts were swiftly shut down: such a system apparently takes up too many resources, and would bring the 'pedia to a grinding halt - so much so that it's an exception to the rule "Don't worry about performance". Perhaps the French system would be a useful counter-argument to this argument? I don't pretend to know enough to bet on which side is correct. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 19:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. The thing is I don't see how a bot would be necessary for what I'm suggesting, everything could be done by hand as one went along. It looks like what happens is a user creates a bibliographical entry in the "reference space" and a template in "template space", call it "refname", and then when someone references the book in the wiki article, they just write Template:Refname. So no bots are needed to go around to make this happen. Sure you could use bots to do work people aren't doing, or to create a bunch of bibliographical data based on what is already entered, but that's another question isn't it? Am I missing something? RobHar (talk) 20:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Creating arbitarily named references for references, as you seem to be suggesting, requires that:

1. for each reference a user wants to use, they search the template space for the reference
2. once they find it, they work out what the template linking to it is called
3. they then include that template in the article;
4. if it doesn't exist they enter the details by hand in the reference namespace and create an arbitrarily named template.  ::That's a lot of effort! By my approach, a user simply enters a piece of identifying data from the book or journal article - it's ISBN or DOI - in the format given above. If they wished, they could then create a page called "Reference:1-029-39284-21" or whatever the ISBN or DOI is - but why bother, when that information can easily be looked up automatically, and the page created by a bot? Then, when someone wants to use the same source in a different article, they enter the same piece of data and since the page already exists, they'll see the reference appear, without having to do any searching whatsoever.

So yes, bots aren't needed - but what sensible person would use their time doing by hand something that could be done automatically with the same result?0

Anyway, the issue to be addressed is whether creating a separate page for each reference is an acceptable drain on resources. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 22:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

All I was trying to say is that it seems like my suggestion is independent of what people think about the amount of resources used by your bot. I'm not against your bot. Having a bot to the grunt work obviously is the optimal solution. Have I misunderstood what you are saying?

As for the issue of creating a separate page for each reference: if a reference is used in two different articles under the current system it would probably take up more space than a reference space page and a template would.

And for completeness, steps 1. and 2. aren't quite right. The user searches the "Reference space" for the work, and once they find it (which shouldn't be very hard if the entry exists), the first information listed is the template to include to reference the article (see fr.wiki example here [8]). RobHar (talk) 23:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you aware of Category:Specific source templates, which contains templates very similar to those in the French wikipedia's "reference" space. For example {{Russell Norvig 2003}}, {{Kimberly 1897}}. etc. (sorry to post this so late) ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 04:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I wasn't aware of this. Perhaps for now I'll just add something there if I find myself using it a lot. RobHar (talk) 14:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The bot doesn't use any resources; creating separate pages does. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 17:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I see. I hadn't understood that from your first post. Wiki is so full of random pages that it didn't occur to me that adding more pages was a problem, especially when the added pages reduce the total size of the encyclopedia by avoiding redundancy. Is it that the simple existence of a page takes up a significant amount of resources? I'd be curious to look through the explanations these people gave to you. Do you have a link of where this discussion took place? Cheers (and sorry for the misunderstanding). RobHar (talk) 20:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This specific idea got a "Very bad idea" when I asked for advice here; I am also reminded of discussion regarding "Pageview bot", see here. However, on re-reading these, there's no strong consensus of opposition to a proposal of this nature, and I wonder how many people are speaking from their own personal opinions rather than factual performance issues. Maybe it's worth putting forwards at the village pump? I'd certainly have found it very useful in this last week's edits, as I have been referring to the same few journal articles in a lot of places. I don't have the energy for beaurocracy, though, so I'll have to leave that to another brave volunteer! Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 20:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Geographical date format option in cite web

see proposed example at {{cite web/sandbox}}

discussion should be had for now at Template talk:Cite web#Working version and final discussion

See Template talk:Cite web#Edit requested dates: optional links and style about moving away from always having blue wikilinked dates, as these are nolonger required by WP:MOS. More specifically need to be able to specify American style (eg August 1, 2008) or British/European/International style (eg 1 August 2008) as might be geographically appropriate to the contents of an article. Whilst registered editors currently may set a date preference, most have not and this does not apply to all unregistered anon editors both of whom currently see the ISO style of 2008-08-01. There is no immediate wish to remove the current default of wikilinking dates, but only to allow fixed formating where editors choose to in articles.

Unfortunately MediaWiki does not currently allow the best of both worlds - namely always showing in a user's preferred format where this has been set, otherwise for everyone else showing as either the current default ISO or some fixed style set by an editor - for there is no means to test if an editor has set a date preference (meta:Help:Date formatting and linking#Accessibility of date preference for branching).

• Assuming people do not for now want:
  • cite web dates only ever to be shown in cite web as unlinked ISO yyyy-mm-dd style
  • date parameters to always be totally unprocessed unlinked values - i.e. no user preference ever processed, values not being machine readable etc
  • values to default to an unlinked international format, unless a datestyle parameter set otherwise (I guess Amercians will be unhappy to see all articles on the USA Constitution change overnight to show dates in British style, and likewise I would balk at forced American-style dates forced onto British topics)
• ... then the proposal (within MediaWiki current constraints) as per {{cite web/sandbox}} is for:

  a) Unchanged default wikilinked dates - for those registered users with a preference set this still respected, for everyone else the current linked yyyy-mm-dd style.

  b) Where an editor selects a specific datestyle, then an unlinked date is shown in this format (user preferences nolonger then apply)

  c) Formating dates is done with the {{#time:}} parserfunction that can't cope with dates before 1970-01-01 and even less so for before 1901. The current sandbox example makes use of a metatemplate {{date style}} to trap all these errors and show unformated iso-style dates (until such time as MediaWiki bugs sorted).

Compare, as an example, current cite web:

Basner (2006-07-25). "Asthma & OSA". American Sleep Apnea Ass. Retrieved 2006-09-23.

To planned version with datestyle parameter:

Undefined (the default)
Basner (2006-07-25). "Asthma & OSA". American Sleep Apnea Ass. Retrieved 2006-09-23.

=myd Am-date
Basner (2006-07-25). "Asthma & OSA". American Sleep Apnea Ass. Retrieved 2006-09-23. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |datestyle= ignored (help)

=dmy Br-date
Basner (2006-07-25). "Asthma & OSA". American Sleep Apnea Ass. Retrieved 2006-09-23. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |datestyle= ignored (help)

A couple of further points:

• The current plan is for all date-parameters ('date', 'archivedate' & 'accessdate') at cite_web to show consistantly with this new coding
• All references using the cite_XXX family should presumably be reasonably consistant when used together in the same article, so after a trial period perhaps this date flexibility should extend across the other templates (the coding is relatively simple).

I've posted notes at the main cite_XXX & citation templates without really much additional comment, hence this heads-up more afar - further discussion should be had for now at Template talk:Cite web#Working version and final discussion. David Ruben ^Talk 18:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

No redirect to references

I am beginning to implement Harvnb on the History of Northwestern University but I can't get the citation note to redirect to the book listed under references. The example I am using is Pridmore 2000, reference 64. Madcoverboy (talk) 16:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

You need to use year= rather than date= in the citation template. ASHill (talk | contribs) 16:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Reliable Source Quotes Wikipedia

I've been trying to get an editor on page Dyker Heights to cite some of his statements, to no response. Now the New York Times actually quoted what he wrote on Wikipedia in one of their articles. [9] and [10]. So can we now reference the Times article that copied the Wiki article? CitiCat ^♫ 16:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

That sounds woefully inadequate to me. If the Wikipedia article is insufficiently referenced, that is not changed by the fact that the existence of the article is mentioned by a reliable source. All the New York Times says about the matter is that the editor of the "Dyker Heights" article claims to have written the Wikipedia article. I'm surprised the editor has not bothered to properly reference the article. According to the NYT he wrote a whole thesis on the subject – surely there were plenty of references in there? — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 16:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jacklee. Also I think the NYT articles says that the editor wrote a Wikipedia article on the topic. The do not say that article contains any verifiable facts. So you would end up with some reference like "NY times reported on the content of this article" which does not solve the issue at all. Arnoutf (talk) 16:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The reporter appears to have done actual reporting himself, so I think material in the article that does not comment on the Wikipedia article is reliable. The article itself is mostly quoting other sources (neither Wikipedia nor Mr. Zaino). Of course, the existence of the Times article that mentions the Wikipedia article does not make the Wikipedia article adequately sourced, and the NYT article is only a source for what it says. ASHill (talk | contribs) 17:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The last section of the Times article (The History) appears to be directly from the Wiki article. CitiCat ^♫ 04:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Other than the initial mention of the Wikipedia article, the remainder appears to be original reporting, much of which would be of use in sourcing the Dyker Heights article. Much of the Dyker Heights artilce will still need to be appropriately sourced, even using the material provided by The Times. Alansohn (talk) 17:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point, ASHill. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 17:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Reusing Wikipedia content#Plagiarism of a wiki article is worth a read. Because this is becoming a growing problem. If a reliable sources (not a mirror) uses Wikipedia information and does not cite Wikipedia as a source, unless one is very aware of the history of an article this can lead to loops where information deleted as unsourced, and is then put back on the page in all innocence by a new editor because it is in a reliable source. I think we need a mechanism to record these copies that appear in a reliable source when they do not credit Wikipedia content. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

True, but tricky. It's going to be difficult to spot plagiarism of Wikipedia articles unless the text is almost word-for-word identical, and newspapers and magazines (even the reliable ones) generally do not state their sources. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 03:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)