Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New prog

New prog

This article is documenting a neologism. There are several sources on the page; however, only one article makes explicit use of the term as a genre name (the Times article) and even then only uses it as one of three possible terms. More often than not, the "genre" term is used in a happenstance manner (i.e. "this new prog rock..."). Moreover, many of the soures do not even use the term: the Entertainment Weekly article "Prog Rocks Again" gives various names for newer progressive rock bands and "New Prog" is not listed among them. Furthermore, the style itself is not notable, being a very limited example of recent progressive rock. DeletionAccount (talk) 15:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree that if all we have is a use of the term in a few places, but no article that explicitly tries to discuss this as an independent topic, then it isn't notable enough for inclusion. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)I'm going to close this as a speedy keep (unless immediately prevailed upon by someone with a real account not to do so): it's clear to me that this is either going to be kept as-is (as seems likely, given the references, and the tenor of the discussion on the article talk page), or merged and redirected, either of which I'd be perfectly happy with. The nominator has already participated in a discussion that ought to have made this clear, before popping up here with his "deletion account". What bothers me more, however, is the blatant use of throwaway accounts for such purposes, which I really see no reason at all to give house room. Alai (talk) 16:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The nominator's account seems perfectly 'real' to me: the only other page they've nominated for AfD was deleted unanimously and uncontroversially. Anyway, Carl's comment above seems to be arguing for a deletion. I'm puzzled as to why you would suggest a speedy keep. Olaf Davis | Talk 17:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a more detailed rationale for deletion. This article is an exercise in original research by synthesis. It collects uses of the term "new prog" in certain music articles about bands, and uses those quotes to make an article on new prog itself, rather than on the bands. The problem with this is clear from an OR point of view.

Moreover, there are no sources given that actually on the topic of "new prog" itself, as would be required for notability. Incidental mentions in other works don't suffice for WP:N here.

Detailed examination of the sources provided shows that many of them only use the phrase "the new prog". Examples:

"Musically and lyrically, the new prog is not your father's prog,"
"Evidence is mounting that we're on the brink of a New Prog Age,..."
"... popular music now encompasses a vast range of sounds and bands, from Slipknot's nu-metal to Atomic Kitten's teeny pop and the 'new prog' of Radiohead."
"The new prog? Post-rock? PRR enjoy a variety of labels that fail to encapsulate them and this single is no exception:..."
"But are the new proggies the true heirs to the thrones of Yes, Genesis and King Crimson?"
"The new prog doesn't yet have an official name (neo-prog? post-prog? prog 2.0?),..."

These articles are not trying to define something called "new prog"; they are just using the adjective "new" to describe the type of prog that certain bands represent. As a thought experiment, imagine if I wrote an article on the "next mayor of town" by accumulating all the news articles that use the term "next mayor".

The final quote above is particularly telling. If the music industry itself has not settled on a name for this genre (or, indeed, decided that it isn't just the next stage of prog rock itself), we are only speculating by collecting their quotes and making an article on "new prog". These things need to be settled in the real world before we try to write an article about them on Wikipedia. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep All names for new music styles are inherently neologisms, and arguments about notability are nearly always original research by synthesis - you find the material, count the reliable sources, add them together, and discuss what they mean. In this case the sources add up to show notability for this sub-genre. It's two years old apparently, long enough to judge lasting notability. If there's a better or more widely used name than "new prog" we should just move the article. If we already have an article about this style / trend, then of course we should merge it. Conceivably this is just a sub-topic within prog rock, in which case it could be merged that way. That's a style question of how best to organize content here, not really a deletion issue. Wikidemo (talk) 19:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you explain exactly what you found in the sources that led you to that conclusion? When I looked through them, all I saw were throwaway references, like the ones I quoted above. I couldn't find, for example, any article that actually gave any sort of definition of new prog. I agree names for new music genres are inherently neologisms, but sometimes there is at least a published article on the neologism. In this case, none of the references seemed to me to fit the burden of direct coverage in WP:GNG. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec) :Follow-up - 122,000 ghits[1] and 500+ news hits,[2]. It looks like snowball notability. This one[3] (though not the most significant) indicates that music professionals use it as a real term to describe the style. This one[4] isn't necessarily a significant mention either but by classifying Radiohead in the group it takes the style back at least to 2001. This is significant coverage (an LA times article about the movement) and seems to date it from the early 90s.[5] Wikidemo (talk) 19:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - The source [6] is not a reliable source; we can't use a vending page as a source for an article with a straight face. More interesting is the final source you linked, as "significant coverage", which says "The new prog-rock movement began in the early '90s, right around the time that Nirvana was making punk safe for mall rats. " As I was saying above, it appears it is just using new as an adjective for discussing developments in progressive rock, and is not about an independent subject called "new prog". This is the issue with using search hits to try to measure notability - both "new single" and "new mayor" would also get a lot of news hits, but I doubt that they are notable concepts either.
    I think this article is trying to be something like British invasion, discussing a specific period in music history. But just as the British invasion was only recognized in hindsight, this topic can't be written about today before art historians have had a chance to write about it first. That's the fundamental issue here - we're trying to predict the future. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm Undecided here: Carl makes a persuasive argument that most of the offered sources are using the phrase the way one might 'new mayor' and don't imply an actual genre of any notability. The Guardian article [7] is the one exception, which seems to suggest that it is a legitimate phrase in its own right (but it hardly tells us anything useful to build an article from except that Muse and Radiohead are examples). If I saw a few more sources sounding like that one, but which actually described the genre, I'd be convinced it should stay; otherwise, I don't think so since we can't be sure we're not attributing characteristics to 'New Prog' that some journalist just happens to have mention in connection with recent prog-rock. Olaf Davis | Talk 20:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This article has been in existence and actively edited for over 2 years since I first created it. It has equivalents in the German and Polish-language Wikipedias. It has numerous citations: while some of these may be ambiguous in whether they mean "new prog" as a distinct genre name or just prog that is new, articles in The Times and The Guardian, clearly reliable sources, as well as the Pop Matters review certainly use the term as a genre label. There has been a fair amount of discussion at Talk:New_prog and Talk:New_Prog about this article that I would recommend people in this debate read those Talk pages. Bondegezou (talk) 20:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In order to pass WP:GNG, the articles would have to directly discuss the label, not just use it once in passing before moving on. The core of the OR#SYNTH problem is taking these passing mentions, which don't actually say what "new prog" is, and trying to make an article from them. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I can't read Polish, but the German came from the English Wikipedia (translated edit summary was "Stub, from English Wikipedia" for any non-German-speakers here). It is also but 2 1/2 months old. The Polish one seems to be a more direct translation from the English wiki page, retaining all formatting. Since they all originated here, I don't think it's valid to consider them at all. 81.51.232.219 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]