Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 24

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:Citing sources. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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When/How Does "Unreferenced" Get Removed?

In the article on stubs, it says, "Be bold in removing stub tags that are clearly no longer applicable." But what about an "Unreferenced" tag? Clearly, I would think, more circumspection is required for the latter than the former, but surely at some point, after a certain critical mass of supporting citations has accrued the article, it must become appropriate to remove the latter as well.

So, then:

What is the critical mass?
By whom should the removal be done?
Through what process should he or she go, prior to removing?

208.252.192.131 (talk) 10:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

As with most things here, it is going to be up to the judgment of individual editors. It is not only quantity, but also quality. Add or remove any of the tags as needed. Remember: edit, revert, discuss; If you make a change and it is reverted, discuss it before getting into an edit war. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Discursive notes

...earlier part archived...

...later part archived...

Doesn't look like this will happen without a wiki developer to sponsor it. Shame 'cos I thought it was quite a good idea. --SallyScot (talk) 17:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Findability

The citation should clearly, fully, and precisely demonstrate that the source text is reasonably findable, such as by external link to the source website. Providing an ISBN or OCLC number, linking to an established Wikipedia article about the source, and directly quoting brief context on the talk page also each assert findability sufficiently.

Above text I inserted was reverted by Crum375. Variations of this have also been tried at WP:V and the suggestion was made to try it here. A couple editors seem to have misunderstood the intent.

The question that arose at WT:V was: when have I in good faith discharged my duty to ensure my source can be found, if it's not on the web? I should be able to have guidelines for knowing this at time of insertion, without having to wait for the potential challenge. The answer we developed was: it's sufficient for "findability" if some other link that indicates the source can be found by a reasonable editor. If you cite an ISBN or OCLC number, a link arises to demonstrate that some libraries or archives do in fact contain the source. If you quote the context in talk, that demonstrates that you have the book and (assuming good faith) have summarized it correctly in mainspace. The same is true if you wikilink the source from the citation, as is routinely done: if the publication, author, or publisher has sufficient independent notability to have a WP article, that indicates that the source can be found. For instance, my local paper is reliable but not widely famous. If I quote something from print which is unavailable online (which I have done), the fact that the paper has its own WP article is sufficient to demonstrate that my quotation is findable.

The whole point is that if someone quotes a rare book and leaves, we may well have a full cite with page numbers, but we can't prove that the book and author exist without some findability check. So if no link is provided [add the obvious: or found by another editor's reasonable search], the next editor is justified in deleting the alleged source as unverifiable. If a link is provided, then discussion can turn to the other topics, such as what the source actually says (more V), whether it's reliable (RS), and whether the summary matches the source (NOR), and so on. I think the misunderstanding arises from the idea that this passage confers automatic verifiability on all sources that happen to be mentioned by WP. No, it confers findability. Would anyone else like to comment on the worth of this guideline for settling the question raised? JJB 16:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

We depend to a large degree on good faith, so one should not delete a citation to a rare source just because it seems inaccessible to us or because the editor neglected to add an OCLC number, or whatever. If the source cannot be found, the approach should be to seek to verify the information through alternative sources. If you cannot do so, you could then argue that the information itself is too obscure to go in the article and replace it (citation and all) with something more widely known. But that is a different thing to shooting difficult-to-find sources on sight.

Although a comment on a source in the talk page is courteous and useful when adding citations to rare sources, it has no verifying effect on the article text itself, because most readers won't think of checking in the talk-page archives. And a source shouldn't be cut because an editor neglected to add details on the talk page. qp10qp (talk) 17:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I may have introduced another possible misimplication in my latest explanation, now refactored. Your first paragraph is exactly what I meant. The issue is that if I have a reliable source so rare that zero information exists anywhere on the web about it (beyond my using it in cites at WP), I should describe some method that someone besides me can access the book directly (such as by directly quoting it, taken in good faith). If I haven't, then a challenger is acting in good faith to request that access method be supplied. That's all. JJB 18:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion at WT:V#Demonstrably findable? and WT:V#Extended protection sounds like consensus that the description of findability should go on this page. I am refactoring it based on the need not to make it seem like a demand unless another editor finds the text to be inaccessible, and spelling it out a bit more because guideline not policy:

The citation should state, as clearly, fully, and precisely as possible, how a reader can find the source material, such as by external link to the source website. If the material is not findable online, it should be findable in reputable libraries, archives, or collections. If a citation without an external link is challenged as unfindable, any of the following is sufficient to show the material to be reasonably findable (though not necessarily reliable): providing an ISBN or OCLC number; linking to an established Wikipedia article about the source (the work, its author, or its publisher); or directly quoting the material on the talk page, briefly and in context.

JJB 20:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Inserting due to lack of discussion. JJB 16:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Embedded links

These break the connection between the place a link is used and the full citation, which is not only a problem for editors, but perhaps more so for readers, since they can't simply click their way to the full citation. I propose to drop this citation method entirely. -- Shinobu (talk) 19:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the accepted wikpedia policy on external links as references? There seems to be conflict (either explicit or confusion) about what the proper reference style is. If I were to link to an external site as a reference to a fact, is the proper usage to [1] link it with a numbered link, or to put that link with full information inside a <ref> tag so that the link appears in the reflist and only a numbered link to the reflist is placed? I always thought numbered external links (the first way) was discouraged in favoure of reference lists, but Wikipedia:Embedded citations seems to suggest this as the proper way. TheHYPO (talk) 18:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Embedded reference are tolerated, but full bibliographical information is better, because if the link goes dead, there will be better clues to help figure out where the information might have moved to, or where to find equivalent information. The full bibliographical information can be included with <ref> tags or with Harvard referencing. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

---

With regard to Embedded links (discussion points above from Archive 19 - see also here) I would like to include the following sentence at the end of the section...

Because of the difficulties in associating them with their appropriate full references, the use of embedded links for inline citations is not particularly recommended as a method of best practice.

I'd like to hear any reasonable counterarguments beforehand. Thanks, --SallyScot (talk) 23:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Last Name First in Footnotes?

I have noticed that the Citation template lists the author's last name first, first name last (e.g., Shakespeare, William, 134). This makes sense in an alphabetized bibliography, not in a footnote. Why is it set up this way? Is there a style guide which approves this format? Thanks.Editor437 (talk) 02:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The citation templates are designed primarily for making full citations in reference lists. That said, their use in footnotes has become common. I don't think any readers are likely to be confused by this. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is a style guide that approves the format. It would be nice to have more sophistication, though. I haven't been able to find a correct bibliographical form: full stops, rather than commas. Also, the last-name/first-name reversal repeats with the co-authors, which is redundant. qp10qp (talk) 10:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Making sure to point out the page numbers

One advantage of parenthetical citing is that you are forced to point out page numbers. It seems fairly common on here not to do that. Now, the Find function (CTRL-F) is powerful, but not everyone is aware of it. I'm curious: where do I fit these notes in on a footnote citation template, say the cite journal one? I would think location, but the examples have places (e.g. Berlin) in location. ImpIn | (t - c) 02:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a "pages=" field in most of the citation templates. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Err, yeah. I was thinking of a more specific place to put the particular page with the statement rather than all the pages of the article, but I suppose I should just add see <particular pages> to that section. ImpIn | (t - c) 03:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I would assume that the field could be used either to show all the pages of an article/chapter/etc., if you were making a general reference, or a specific page if you were citing a particular fact. I can't imagine when you would want to show both a range of pages and a specific page within that range, though. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah. You make a good point. I guess this was sort of a dumb thing to bring up. But when you cite to a particular page, you can't use the reference again, and have to do a new footnote. And that's a hassle. But when you cite generally, people have to search. Personally, I think that many papers could be cited by page number alone in-text; if there's an anchor, the author and date is unnecessary. ImpIn | (t - c) 03:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

You can solve this problem by creating a subsection under References to house those general citations, and then use inline cites with page numbers to reference them. See an example of this at University of Tennessee Forensic Anthropology Facility. So long as the article doesn't use multiple sources from the same author written in the same year, the results are very easy to interpret. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 04:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

You're describing shortened notes. See Wikipedia:Citing sources#Shortened notes, or (for a longer list of examples) see Wikipedia:Verification methods#Shortened notes. This is the most popular method for citing several pages of the same source. (There are a few other methods, such as {{Rp}}). ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 04:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't like shortened notes at all. {{Rp}} is much better, and sort of what I was looking for. For large works used often in a complex article, however, in-text referencing of the page numbers is better in my mind because you end up creating less of a mess of footnotes, and you point them directly to the work in question. ImpIn | (t - c) 00:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Where's the help? Just awful as basic guidance

I make a few Wikipedia edits a week. I know citing sources is important. So why is the "help" for doing this so garbled and disorganized? I have to troll through paragraphs on different citation styles, lots of WP:This and WP:That, links to subsections, links to absurdly complex tables of reference templates. Nothing explains the difference between cite and ref and footnotes, or summarizes the most useful templates. So every single time I give up and just copy the wiki text of a nearby citation (or reference?), I have no idea if the one I copied is done right or not.

Please, provide editors one simple guide to doing the right thing, and make sure all the other pages feature a link to that simple guide early on.

Help:Citations quick reference is too bare-bones. The examples don't look like decent references, and the column "In References" doesn't explain how to make a reference.
Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners is promising, but it doesn't give any guidance on standard formats or templates, it's flagged as "just an opinion", and it's longer than Help:Footnotes.
Wikipedia:Embedded citations adds insult to injury by saying "For details about the other inline citation methods see Wikipedia:Citing sources." I don't want details, I want the basics. 95% of Wikipedia editors agree! [citation needed]

I shouldn't have to understand the difference between cite, ref, and footnote just to respond to the endless "citation needed" exhortations. If I do, then explain them to me, don't assume anything.

I think it's as simple as, if the document already has a References section, just add <ref>{{some standard citation template|its params...}}</ref> after the text. But I sure didn't learn that by reading all these pages.

Thanks for listening, now I'm off to make a citation reference footnote, badly -- Skierpage (talk) 04:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, there's a lot of noise on the page. This is true for almost all Wikipedia documentation...I believe it may be difficult to change, but let's try. ImpIn | (t - c) 04:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this page is too long and poorly organized, especially for the beginner. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 12:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with this well-formed request, working this, slowly. JJB 15:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions:

The overhead banner should be shortened somewhat. The WP:CITING should be changed to WP:CITEWIKIPEDIA or WP:CITEWIKI; WP:CITING should redirect here.
The intro paragraph should have a description of the basic ways to cite, anchored links to "how to write" each of these, and perhaps an anchored list to "why to cite". At the moment it is redundant.
Why sources should be cited should be moved down to after the basic rundown of how to write ect.
"Use of terms" section can be relegated to a footnote.
In the intro, it should be noted that citations are not always necessary, with an anchored link to the "When to cite sources"; however, this is common sense, and thus that section should be put after the practical details.
The "How to cite sources" section can be cleaned up significantly into a to the point, practical explanation.
Tools should be emphasized immediately in the How to Cite section, as they are very useful. Nobody has time to hand-write really good citations when they're volunteering. I use the Google Scholar Wikify tool a fair amount. Attempts should be made to give different tools short, distinct, and descriptive names.
Structuring citation templates so that they cover much of the page irritates me (this is how the above tool does it by default). If possible, we should come to some sort of consensus on this. I'll take this moment to remind people that we can remove citation templates from the prose itself by voting for Bugzilla:12796. ImpIn | (t - c) 00:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Could you make each of these suggestions under a different topic? I.e., make a headline for each of these? It's hard to comment on a things in a numbered list. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 12:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

A headline for each? Don't you think that's excessive? I'll start with the intro paragraph ImpIn | (t - c) 00:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Revising the intro paragraph: currently redundantly goes over style

Currently the intro paragraph redundantly repeats the information in the headline: that this is a style guideline. It would be better if it summarized the article and succinctly pointed people to the different methods, how to use them, and the tools available. It should be noted briefly that citations are not always necessary, with an anchored link to the "When to cite sources"; however, this is common sense, and thus that section should not be given undue weight. The focus here should be on telling people how to cite, rather than explaining why. ImpIn | (t - c) 00:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Reference section fold up

Does Reference section in a big article will be fold up to occpying fixed height whatever how much.219.68.144.162 (talk) 07:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't do it, because it won't print. This was discussed before. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 12:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep. see Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Scrolling_lists. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 02:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Dead link guidance

I have a PDF that was published by the Utah Department of Transportation that I downloaded in July 2007 from http://www.udot.utah.gov/download.php/tid=1348/StateRouteHistory.pdf . On first look, it seems to be in the Internet Archive, but those links don't actually work. I uploaded it to [2], but that won't stay up forever. Some of the information is not in other documents. What should I do here? Remove the URL and say "document downloaded from http://www.udot.utah.gov/download.php/tid=1348/StateRouteHistory.pdf in July 2007, but no longer online"? An example of a current reference to it can be seen at [3]. --NE2 21:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Language

I hope i am not sounding biased or bad or anything. I am just wondering whether if references have to be or at least should be in english\english translation. Looking at the recent 2008 Iwate earthquake, a good number of the references are in Japanese, for example. Simply south (talk) 01:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. Preference is given to English sources of equal quality, but sources do not have to be in English, though translations are encouraged. Read up at the link for more details. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I really want Wikipedia to make a rule, that if you are contribution to a community you speak their languages and you use sources from their language. You are not allow to cite info from other languages, because using other languages automatically give you an advanatage without any intentions.

Because many languages itself have different grammar, and by using any translation software, there is a good chance that mistake would happen. Unless somebody genius can make a reliable sources, like converting the words into XML data and semantic constraints and then translate into some sort of standard language format(made by an recognized association) in a script, it is very hard to know if any errors are made. Also a lot of words itself have connotations which foreigners won't know even if they translate (like humor), so the intentions and implications can be easily mistaken.

--Ramu50 (talk) 18:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

How is using a foreign language source different, for our purposes, than using a rare book as a source? (By the way, we do allow books to be used as sources.) --Gerry Ashton (talk) 20:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand that Wikipedia is trying to accept every single language sources without being racist and sexist, elimination of minority groups...etc. But I found that a lot article in Wikipedia which contain other language sources, they are usually not registered user. Also the article they contribute, if you look at their user history, they don't have more than 3 relevant contribution to the topic. So say if they are contribution to graphic card, usually if you look at their history, they don'thave more than 3 contribution in any topic relevant to computers.

So the questions arises, first how do we even know he/she have a roughly good understanding of the topic, if he doesn't contribute to relevant topic. Second I think they should be probably start with contributing to other Wikipedia, instead starting the official Wikipedia. There is one version of Wikipedia that uses lower level english for foreigners.

Ok if remove the language rules, then please tell me how you can solve the language problem. Because in Language

Problem 1: Connotation problem, connotations usually require you to understanding something about the people, the culture and history and we don't have time for. The meaning would change totally, since in some languages joking is okay (like in Britain) while in more Asian Oceanian countries it is not okay.

Problem 2: Non-existant word problem. Some language often refer to things like proverb, idoms which derive from a small region only, people who don't speak their language or don't live there will have no idea what they are talking about.

Problem 3: Reliable sources. Some people cite things from China, but the Chinese government restrict what is allow to be on the Web Server, so how do we know that the information is reliable. (Without freedom of speech, how we know who is right and wrong).

--Ramu50 (talk) 16:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not discriminate against its users. Just because English isn't a user's primary language does not mean they should be barred from editing here. Yes, they could have edited at their language's site, but they chose this one. Also, how do we know that anyone that edits any given article has a "good" understanding of the topic? We don't, which is why we require valid sources to back up those edits.

The core issue here, however, is the appearance that your proposal would call non-English sources as less reliable than English sources. How can we possibly justify such a mindset? Regarding your points:

Yes, some cultures treat humour in writing in different ways, but most respectable media are going to write in a manner befitting their industry, and will not use sarcasm (for example) is such a strong way that it cannot be easily distinguishable from the true content. After that, it is up to the reader to determine the intent of those words.
I don't see how this is an issue. That idiom comprises but one small part of the overall source, and is likely to not interfere with the overall meaning. If it does, then don't use that source.
We, as readers, cannot know if any given thing we read has been butchered by another person or group seeking to censor material. Unless it is just blatantly done, we don't know if any given thing is trying to push a point-of-view (which almost any written source is going to do, intentional or otherwise). My point is that reading other people's work is an inherent risk...you don't know if it is correct. However, if the publication is considered to be a trusted entity, part of that trust is passed on to its writers.

Check out WP:VUE, which states that English sources are preferred over non-English ones, since this is the English Wikipedia. But there are times when the information being sought simply cannot be found in an English source, due to it being a matter of local or cultural importance, or whatever. In the end, this is an open encyclopedia. We can request that sources be in English as a courtesy to readers, but to outright banish all other languages goes against the spirit this site, and all of Wikimedia, tries to establish. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 19:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

References

When describing the beliefs of a particular religious group, is it acceptable to use the group's website as a source, and list the website as such? In this case there is little published material to use. Rev107 (talk) 01:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Merger discussion at Template:citation

There is a preliminary discussion at Template talk:citation#Proposal to merge redundant citation templates that might be of interest to folks here. ASHill (talk | contribs) 13:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)