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2 by 4 inches (50 mm × 100 mm)

The guideline recommends "1.2 in × 1.8 in" over "1.2 × 1.8 in", fair engough, but what if the "×" is spelt out as "by" and/or the "in" (or whatever unit) is spelt out as "inch(es)"? "1.2 by 1.8 inches" would seem quite normal to me, "1.2 inches by 1.8 inches" being perhaps a little over the top but not wrong. How about "1.2 × 1.8 inches" verses "1.2 inches × 1.8 inches"? How about "1.2 by 1.8 in" verses "1.2 in by 1.8 in"? I sort of feel it's a question of "×" vs "by" more than "in" vs "inch(es)". Thoughts anyone ... JIMp _talk·cont 07:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Expunge the passage as MOScruft. Omitting the in may be unclear, but including it may be heavy; both depend strongly on context. Either mention the problems or leave the entire matter to editorial judgment. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I would advise against writing like that when you write it in words. No one writes "a 2 by 24 millimeter section", so I don't see why one should write "a 2 by 4 inches wood plank". One speaks of 2 by 4's, or 2x4's but that's because grammar-wise it's the name of the thing. When giving specifications, it should be "1.2 in x 1.8 in" or "1.2 inches by 1.8 inches", the x being used when units are in unit form and the by when units are fully spelled out. IMO.[[::User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] ([[::User talk:Headbomb|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Headbomb|contribs]]) 14:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Idiom is "two by four" or "2 by 4 inch plank". No inches need apply. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, a 2 by 4's actual dimensions are 38×89mm, see Dimensional lumber - which should probably be linked from instances of "two by four". --Random832 (contribs) 20:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

What on earth is wrong with "1.2 × 1.8 in" and "50 × 100 mm"? Shorter, easier to pick up, and absolutely unambiguous. TONY (talk) 14:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

There's a missing unit in the first number, so it could be anything. 1.2 ft x 1.8 in; 1.2 in x 1.8 in, 1.2 yards x 1.2 inches etc. [[::User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] ([[::User talk:Headbomb|ταλκ]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Headbomb|κοντριβς]]) 19:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it could mean anything; but in the absence of any evidence or indication to the contrary, it doesn't. See ellipsis; thus, for example, the phrase in my last sentence is equivalent to in the absence of any evidence to the contrary or indication to the contrary,. Again, never using ellipsis is bad, because clumsy, writing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that 50 × 100 mm has only one possible meaning: five metres. Thunderbird2 (talk) 06:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I think I'm returning to my original gut feeling. Anderson is right to bring up ellipsis. I'd say that "1.2 by 1.8 inches" could mean nothing but "1.2 inches by 1.8 inches" and would be the usual way of expressing it in English. Ellipsis is aptly applied when we're dealing with words, the longer form clumsy. It doesn't occur in mathematics though. As Thunderbird points out, "50 × 100 mm has only one possible meaning: five metres", mathematically speaking. Since we're using a mathematical symbol (the times sign) it might be looked at as a mathematical expression. If we're using symbols/abbreviations for the units, we probably won't have to be concerned so much with wordiness. I agree Headbomb that "×" should be used when using symbols/abbreviations and that "by" should be used when spelling the units out. JIMp _talk·cont 01:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

What about adding phone numbers?

I am almost 100% sure that phone numbers should NOT be added to Wikipedia, though the creator of this page seems to disagree. I want to delete them (stop me if I'm wrong) but each time I am stopped. I would appreciate it if someone could point our anything at all relevant to my point that I can share with said user as I can find none myself --Maurice45 (talk) 19:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

• If it’s not even an English-language TV broadcast in India, the first question that pops to my mind is “does this subject have sufficient notability to even merit inclusion in en.Wikipedia?” I wrote “if” because the article doesn’t even explain what language the broadcast uses. Does that even matter for notability (?), I don’t know; but then, I’m not an expert on Wikipedia policies. Greg L (talk) 20:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

• P.S.: The second thing that pops to mind is MOSNUM isn’t the proper forum for this. I’m not sure what forum is suitable and I hope someone else can direct this editor to the correct one. Greg L (talk) 20:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

  Explain that Wikipedia is not a phone book, and that is all the backup you need. ArcAngel (talk) 14:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Fnagaton should resign as sysop

I see that Fnagaton has flagrantly abused his role as a sysop by closing the AN/I on Omegatron with this POV summary:

This discussion has been archived after Tony's attempt to misrepresent and to make edits after the section has been archived. Tony's attempted bad faith misrepresentation and the subsquent refutation is now archived.

I was not aware that the page had been closed when I made whatever edit he's referring to. But there is a serious accusation of "misrepresentation", and again "bad faith misrepresentatio" that I dispute; in its focus on me alone, it is POV.

Can anyone advise me where I can make an official complaint about this? It seems a denial of natural justice that he thinks he can close a page with such a POV summary to which I have no right of reply, the content of which I think a lot of people would dispute. I think this is sysop-resignation material. [1] TONY (talk) 14:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You attempted addition of bad faith misrepresentation to a section three months after it has been archived, the whole page is an archive as shown by the word "Archive" in the page title. You gave no right of reply by editing an archived page in the first place and what you did was a breach of etiquette by editing an archived section with your own personal attack and not telling anyone about it. Hiding an edit in an archived section that nobody is watching is also a breach of etiquette. That is why it has been marked with a "following discussion is archived" box to make sure you realise the section has been archived in the first place and should not have been edited by you. The justice is that your attempted misrepresentation has been archived for everyone to see. If you really want to make a complaint you may of course, but it will only draw attention to how you edited an archived section and your attempted bad faith misrepresention. I did actually consider reporting you for adding bad faith misrepresentation long after a section has been archived because what you did was wrong, but then I decided to mark the section as archived to make it clear to you that you should not be editing old archived sections and to give you a chance because I don't want to see you punished for making one mistake. Fnagaton 14:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

PS. If, as you claim, you were not aware the page had been archived when you made your edits then you can demonstrate this by requesting that all of your edits added after the section was archived and your edits to this talk page are completely removed. I would then consider the matter closed and I will not make a formal complaint against you for your attempted misrepresentation added to an archived section. Fnagaton 14:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Tony, see Wikipedia:Administrators#Grievances by users ("Administrator abuse"). --Gerry Ashton (talk) 14:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I certainly will report this abuse. Fnagaton, I request that you remove the edits I made to that page in error. I certainly won't be removing my edits on this page pointing out your abuse and your personal attack. TONY (talk) 15:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You made a personal attack with your first edit. You were then corrected by another editor and you then proceeded to make an uncivil comment which then demonstrated your are using bad faith misrepresentation. Your personal attacks and bad faith misrepresentation are archived on the page for the complaint to see. Fnagaton 16:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Let me get this right: you ask that I ask that edits I made in error be removed; then when I do so, you attack me again, but refuse to remove them. I give up. Further attack is the best form of defence, is it? My issue now is your abuse of admin privileges. TONY (talk) 16:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• I said "requesting that all of your edits added after the section was archived and your edits to this talk page are completely removed". You have not made this request because you have not asked an uninvolved administrator to completely remove your edits here and on the ANI page, this involves removing all history entries for your edits. I cannot remove the history of your edits here and on the ANI page. I specifically mention this talk page because your accusations are completely false and you have made untrue claims in your edit comments themselves so it would do no good to only request the ANI changes to be removed since it would leave your untrue accusations on this page. I'll say it again, if you request that all of your edits added after the section was archived and your edits to this talk page are completely removed I would then consider the matter closed and I will not make a formal complaint against you for your attempted misrepresentation added to an archived section. Fnagaton 16:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• And now an anonymous Tor user has just made an edit to remove the section Tony1 objected to. And another Tor user. Fnagaton 18:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

  The Tor edits have been completely removed by User:Swatjester. Fnagaton 19:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Monthly update of style and policy pages: April 2008

It was a complicated month, so I hope I've captured, as simply as possible, the substantive changes. Please notify any issues on the talk page. TONY (talk) 15:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

:Tony, did you mean this talk page? I am assuming so, and I do have one minor comment, which is that in SI-speak, kgs does not mean kilogram-second (that would be kg·s or kg s). Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC) Comment moved to the correct talk page Thunderbird2 (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Thunderbird; I goofed, and have now provided a section link to the talk page of the monthly updates—see above in this subsection. I'll deal with your point tomorrow, if you don't mind; off to bed. TONY (talk) 16:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)