Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive13

Martinphi

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

I'm willing to accept Martinphi's explanation that he didn't intend his comment mean what several editors thought it meant. Thatcher 00:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

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Subject to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist, Martinphi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is not to be disruptive. I find this statement of non-cooperation to be needlessly personal and highly disruptive in our attempts to move beyond page protection: [17]. I removed it [18]. It is my opinion that this user is continuing disruption for the sake of disruption. The current tendentious arbitration request he has made might also be of interest. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That was meant to move the debate forward. Please, everyone, read it. It was not a put-down, but a real suggestion which gave people a chance to move forward. Further, it was an assumption of good faith on my part. It says nothing uncivil, though it does say that SA is not a neutral editor, which is simply a statement that he is on one side of the debate- I, also, am not a neutral editor in that sense. In other words, it comments on contributions, not contributors. Reporting here is harassment (also see [19][20]). If you read what I wrote assuming that I really meant SA or other editors to do the things suggested (mediation, writing a new lead while taking into consideration the talk page), you will see what I mean. As far as rudeness, I am talking about the many, many edits like this. Also see [21] .

The Arbitration request is a good-faith attempt to bring the situation to the Arbitrators, and was rejected not because it was invalid, but mainly because it was not specific enough. That was a mistake, but the arbitration request is legit.

Anyway, talking about rudeness openly on the Bleep page was an attempt to move the stalled debate forward, and to try and get a useful process going. Both sides have been rude, as I make clear. The process would re-start if my suggestions were followed, and good faith extended. Meanwhile, if there is no AGF, or even a pretense of AGF, things continue as they are, and nothing will get done, just like I said. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:07, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Archived discussion

In what way is it an assumption of good faith to tell SA that he can write a new lead but he will have to promise to not revert any changes and furthermore give up his "right" to edit the article ever again? (I suggest he write such a lead, as a good-faith way to express to the community that he is willing to compromise, and that he will abide by consensus. Also, he will need to give up the option to revert any changes he doesn't like, and give up editing the article directly against or without consensus.) I see very little reason not to ban you from editing the article for 30 days under the terms of your editing restriction. If we going to start tossing blocks at SA for being uncivil when baited, I see no reason to allow you free rein to push his buttons. The ban will be enacted in 24 hours unless there is a consensus of uninvolved admins here that I have got it wrong. Thatcher 01:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like a fine idea to me, but I would like to see Martinphi prohibited from making frivolous noticeboard complaints. A ban from posting on this board might be in order. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd rather not. We can ignore them or rapidly decline and archive reports that truly have no merit. It still seems early for an outright ban from the noticeboard. Thatcher 01:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this edit war declaration by SA today and this WQA by SA are pertinent here. Both sides of this overly long debate have taken to filing frivolous claims to solve their issues and need to stop and solve them themselves. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

See also this diff [22] where SA says he'll make it 10K words and laughs. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Good grief, are you seriously interpreting this as a threat to disrupt? I realize you aren't exactly fond of SA, but this is too much. Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Riiiiight. Because I'm such a villain that I always laugh like this: "Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha." I don't know what to make of this: it's almost absurd. Anthon01 was basically declaring on my talk page that only a single sentence of criticism should go in the lead of WTBDWK. I was merely pointing out how ludicrous this kind of proscribing is. Question: is there any edit that I've made in the last five years that placed 10K in the lead of any article? After you look through those 20,000 contributions maybe you can tell me whether or not I was being serious. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not appreciate this administrator mischaracterizing a good faith effort to provide an alternative version in talk space, and a report I filed because the user I was upset with told me to go through dispute resolution. What the fuck do you want me to do? Rlevse has all but stonewalled me and I am collecting his constant harranging comments about what I'm doing. I'm sick and tired of it. I would appreciate it if he just stayed out of this stuff because I don't trust him to be fair or neutral. The WQA was made to try to alert people that there was a problem. The comment from the article talk page being referred to is inviting people to edit a version of a lead that I am offering (my version in talk space: not the article's version). It's far from an edit war declaration, and I am so sick and tired of Rlevse misinterpretting my actions and poisoning wells wherever I go in trying to resolve the issues with the massive POV-wars happening at Wikipedia. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher, that was not what I meant. That is horrible, and if I said anything similar, SA and everyone has my sincerest apology. I just didn't mean that, but rather that the article shouldn't be edited without consensus, and the new lead should not be under the control of one editor, who would revert anything he doesn't like- not in order to punish SA, but because it just wouldn't work. It wouldn't work for him any more than me.

Anyway, I could defend myself here, but obviously someone has it in for me. I did my best to help out and suggest a way forward, and it is construed as pushing buttons.

God, why would you think I said he should never edit the article again???? What is this???

Again, I'd like a little neutrality here. Not to mention a little fairness and AGF. I won't attempt a detailed explanation, because reading what I wrote in the context of the actual article page and SA's actual suggestions on how to proceed will to a neutral observer show that I was attempting to help, and that only extreme lack of assumption of good faith can say otherwise.

Nothing in the Arbitration said I couldn't criticize anything SA did. I have that right, and it is not pushing buttons. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

For the record, the article in question is currently locked because while every other editor was participating in an RfC to discuss changes made to the lead, ScienceApologist edit warred to make sure his lead was installed instead, against the consensus of several editors who were participating in the RfC. Martinphi's suggestion may have been a bit extreme, but a 30 day ban for making it? This might be a bit much, especially since it was SA's actions that led to the page being locked. I'm not an admin, but I wanted to comment in case arbitrators weren't familiar with the background behind Martinphi's comment. If this belongs on someone's talk page rather than here, please feel free to move it. --Nealparr ^{(talk to me)} 01:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I meant only that he shouln't make nonconsensus edits- like everyone else. I meant also that it wouldn't work to revert anything he didn't like in a proposed edition of the lead. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher, It was in context, and should read:

Also, he will need to give up the option to revert any changes to his proposed lead he doesn't like (otherwise the process won't work), and give up editing the article directly against or against consensus. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Martin, I did misread the comment somewhat but it is still patronizing and insulting. Presumably you have not agreed to give up your right to revert "nonconsensus" edits made by SA or any other editor of the article. Thatcher 02:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

New section

Let's start over. I misinterpreted Martinphi's comment, although I still don't like it. I need to think some more about a response. And SA's "declaration to edit war" clearly applies to a draft of the article lede he was writing in talk space. So give me a few minutes to collect my wits and see what is really going on here. Thatcher 03:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I got an email from a party which is friendly, saying that what I said sounded like a command. I do see that, and I did not mean it to. It would have been better not to address SA directly at all. I could have said the same things without speaking directly of him. It was truly my intent to try and bring both peace and progress (I'm not going to pretend I was very hopeful, but it didn't occur to me he would even report it because I didn't think I said anything bad). It certainly wan't my intent to taunt him or push any buttons. But, I can see retrospectively that it could be seen that way, and you and he have my apology.

Just because I want to say this: I have about a 3 hour limit on being angry. I can be very persistent on an issue, but I'm usually not angry after 1-3 hours, often even in life-changing situations. So, I tend to come and edit normally, and assume others are not angry either. The fact is that while my self-control is good, it isn't as good as it looks: if I'd been as angry as people generally must assume, there would be quite a few instances of my (intended) incivility around here. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Added later: I can see how in context of the general dispute it could be seen as my putting myself above the fray and saying how SA should do things if he wants to play. I just didn't mean it that way. I did mean it to be a true and fair analysis of exactly what needed to be done if progress is to be made. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You may have been trying to propose a solution, but the way it was worded, it could be interpreted as a command. I'm not saying it was, just commenting that thats one possible intepretation. Anthon01 (talk) 05:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, understood and already apologized. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

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"Presumably you have not agreed to give up your right to revert "nonconsensus" edits made by SA" Actually, Thatcher, I mainly have: I've been pretty much sticking to 1RR for a long time now, and doing even that almost never. SA has had the run of the articles, and certainly could out-revert me (and has in I believe every article I tried a revert on). ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for clarification

It is unclear whether the arbcom's injunction for Martinphi not to participate in "disruption" was intended to apply solely in article space, or whether it also includes activities such as frivolous use of process and baseless accusations against other users. Specifically, in the Arbitration request noted above Martinphi accused a group of editors of carrying on a campaign of "large and ongoing disruptions." No evidence was provided that the editors in question organized their purported disruptions, nor indeed that their "disruptions" were anything other than attempts to present perspectives with which Martinphi disagreed. Thus it would be useful for arbcom to clarify the scope of its remedy. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I changed that to "create," rather than "organize," per your interpretation. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

"Any edit judged to be disruptive" and "banned from any page or set of pages" clearly applies to all pages on Wikipedia (also by convention in past cases). For example, evidence cited by the Arbs included edits to user talk and the Featured Article talk page. Do you wish to request enforcement for disruption by Martinphi somewhere? Or just asking for future reference? Thatcher 01:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Such phrasing by the Committee always means including talk, unless they exempt it. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Mostly for clarification. Historically Martinphi has tended to read arbcom decisions in a very narrow and formalistic sense, so I wanted to clarify the proper interpretation. Martinphi, do you acknowledge now being aware of this interpretation of the ruling's scope? Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea about unwritten tradition. But I don't know why the committee would bother to write it out so carefully if what they really meant was "ban/block him if you feel there is cause." It was obviously very specific and carefully written. I accepted it as written, and endeavored to conform to it. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The words were: "Should they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be disruptive, they may be banned from any affected page or set of pages." They went on:

"Should they violate this ban, they may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below." Emphasis added. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

So then, is it your interpretation is that the ruling does not apply to disruption outside of article space? By your reading you'd have to first be banned from a page outside of article space (say, WP:RFAR) and then you'd have to violate that ban before any blocks could be applied, correct? Just trying to make sure everyone is on the same page here. Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Martin is correct about the manner in which the restriction is to be enforced, if necessary. He may be banned from any page or set of pages he disrupts, and if he violates the ban by editing such pages (or evades it by editing while logged out or using sockpuppets) he can be blocked. Personally, I start with temporary bans and only escalate if problems persist, and blocks for violating any bans similarly start out brief and escalate only if necessary. Thatcher 05:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

If I understand what you're saying, does this mean arbcom didn't intend to restrict disruption in Wikipedia space (say, frivolous use of process)? Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Arritt, that isn't what I said: only that a total ban from WP is not in the Arbitration case, but only blocks after violation of specific-page bans. That is not how it was applied before when I was blocked, as I wasn't banned from a page nor did I violate a ban.

And Thatcher, here is the text of the blocking:

1) Should any user subject to an editing restriction in this case violate that restriction, they may be briefly blocked, up to a week [but only] in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one month.[23]

I was blocked once, and I still can't see how that block was within the specified process.

I also think that my edit at Bleep was not intended to be anything bad, and I fully intend to not directly engage SA in the future in the way I did there. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, I'm trying to clarify whether disruption in Wikipedia-space is relevant here. Your explanation above indicates that arbcom did not intend that any sanction could be applied for disruptive activities such as frivolous use of WP:RFAR, WP:RFC, and such. Correct? (All this is hypothetical of course; I'm sure you would never consider doing such things.) Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Raymond, the decision says "Any edits" and both Martin and I have used the formulation "any page" so I am confused at your apparent confusion. The restriction applies to all of Wikipedia, including article, talk, project, template, and any other space. (As a matter of personal preference, I would be extremely reluctant to ban anyone from the pages of the dispute resolution process itself, but it could be done under appropriate circumstances.) Thatcher 13:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, let me state how a hypothetical sequence of events would work. Let's suppose Martinphi brings frivolous action in an RfC. He could then be banned from that RfC. If he continued to edit on that RfC, he could be blocked. If he did not continue editing that RfC, he could bring a frivolous arbcom case. He could then be banned from editing on that arbcom case. If he continued to edit on that arbcom case, he could be blocked. If he did not continue editing that arbcom case, he could bring a frivolous RfC (different from the first RfC). And so on, and on, and on, because it would be a different "page" each time. If there's something wrong with this interpretation, please point out what's wrong. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

While that is true in a hypertechnical sense I doubt admins would tolerate that for long. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That's precisely why I asked the question in this way. It addresses Martinphi's inclination to interpret Wikipedia policy in a "hypertechnical" sense. I have no doubt that if Martinphi engaged in the behavior I describe above, he'd object strenuously to any sanction. And he'd almost certainly be able to find an admin with a sympathetic ear who would overturn any block. (Again, all this is hypothetical of course.) Raymond Arritt (talk) 21:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure they will...because here we are... Shot info (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Who is being hypertechnical here? Topic or page bans are at the discretion of uninvolved admins. If an admin thought that Martin had sufficiently misused some of the noticeboards and project spaces to warrant a ban from all of them, the admin could do so. Page bans can be appealed to this page, ANI or Arbcom if the banned editor feels an error has been made. The problem of overturned blocks is not unique to Arbitration enforcement and can also be taken up with Arbcom. Thatcher 00:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.