Talk:Magnifying transmitter

—67.185.136.253 17:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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I removed some of the timid statements. Tesla's Magnifier is described in his notes and patents, and many hobbyists (perhaps hundreds) have built successful units. --Wjbeaty 10:55, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

Intro & Article

From the intro: The magnifying transmitter is an advanced harmonic oscillator of the electrical Tesla coil, used for the wireless transmission of electrical energy.[1] Is it used for the wireless transmission of electrical energy, if so does this include anything significant to date, other than sparks? Also Nikola Tesla's apparatus is a high-voltage, air-core, self-regenerative resonant transformer that generates very high voltages at high frequency. Does its self-regenerative status mean that it is a perpetual motion machine? Tesla was a great man and had some incredible ideas. Everyone gets something wrong, even the very best, and he may have sold us a pup on this one. The magnifying transmitter does something, but was it the amazing machine that some believe, or is it a side-show way of obtaining a big electricity bill along with some huge sparks. The article would be more interesting and relevent if it included info: on copies have been built, what did they do. what was the electrical input, what happened to that energy. Thanks! --Dumbo1 01:59, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Self-regenerative" was the term Tesla's in one of his patents. However, this particular term is no longer in general use. Tesla'a Magnifier falls into a category of devices called "multi-resonant networks". These consist of two, or more, coupled resonant circuits, and the math that describes them can become quite cumbersome. Until relatively recently, Tesla's Magnifier had not been rigorously analyzed, and design information that did exist tended to be mostly empirical and anecdotal. See the newly added references by Antonio Carlos M. de Queiroz and Paul Nicholson in the external links section for more information on multi-resonant networks and helical resonators. Bert 18:35, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The magnifying transmitter is an alternate version of a Tesla Coil. It is a high power harmonic oscillator that Nikola Tesla proposed for the wireless transmission of electrical energy.[1] Tesla's apparatus is a high-voltage, air-core, multiple-resonant transformer that can generate very high voltages at high frequency."

The Magnifying transmitter is designed and intended for use at low frequency.

Michael H 34 16:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34[reply]

Disputed

I'M in a hurry, but for a start: Why is the greatest invention of Tesla not used today? O.K. I smell the usual answer: suppression by the establishment. But wouldn't Occams razor imply, that it just didn't work? Achieved nothing but some impressive sparks? --Pjacobi 15:36, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC)

Read up on the magnifier. It is routinely called that. Why is the greatest invention of Tesla not used today? I don't know ... mabey it just because of people's ignorance of Tesla. It did work ... there have been models of it's operation that were tested [see history section]. I'm removing the dispute tag.

I've re-inserted the tag. This article is a bad example of Teslaism. The M.T. should better be portrayed as freak anecdote in the history of technology, not as biggest invention. I don't dispute that is working (for some value of "working"), but its usefullness. --Pjacobi 16:21, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC)

I've removed the tag. Unless you can point out specific (so-called) Teslaism, it shouldn't be there. The M.T. is cited as his greatest invention. I'm glad that you don't dispute it worked ... and its usefullness has been proven in mechanical analogies.

The usefullness of inventions is generally easy to measure by looking at their distribution. In that discipline, the M.T. earns 0 out of 100 points. --Pjacobi 16:29, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC)

(small note: the history is missing an edit, when I look at it now it shows me rv'ing to Pj, with no intervening edit. This will probably fix itself in time, but [1] shows the intervening edit at 16:24 of 204 re-removing the tag William M. Connolley 19:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)).

As an example, what my be regarded as Tesla's greatest invention:

Pjacobi

Dr. Tesla cited this as his greatest invention in his book "My Inventions'" ( ISBN 0-760700-85-0 ), to wit, the "magnifying transmitter will prove most important and valuable to future generations".

It is kinda ironic, though, that you cite these pages here and on the Tesla page you ignore the facts in the cited pages. (eg., the greatest engineers of all time; mit.edu article). Seems as if you have a POV problem.

Regarding your first statement: Yes, but this isn't often cited as (i.e. by different authors). The current misleading statement can be replaced, with your above quote, to show Tesla's lack of judgement.

Regarding your second statement, one of the greatest electrical engineers of all time is a rather carefull formulation, compared with the superlatives, I've reverted: [2].

Pjacobi 14:56, 2005 Jun 17 (UTC)

the definitiong of greatest (greatest in importance or degree or significance) includes his statement "most important and valuable"

these are not exaggerated statements. Lord Kelvin stated that "Tesla has contributed more to electrical science than any man up to his time." Edwin H. Armstrong stated that "The world, I think, will wait a long time for Nikola Tesla's equal in achievement and imagination." Arthur Compton stated that "Tesla is entitled to the enduring gratitude of mankind." There are plenty of others that would support this. I would take their opinion and POV over yours.

I'll see if I can put in a thing about tesla statement (and cite other people as to thier reguards on the MT, later)

The Earth is a 0.25 Farad capacitor, a huge source of energy. Power is proportional to the current times the voltage squared, and therefore current can be minimized if voltage is maximized. This is good, because low current is ideal for power transmission. Tesla receives a patent on an invention that creates a circuit, which includes the Earth's stored electrical energy as the energy source. The magnetic field strength for the longitudinal standing waves created along the Earth's surface in Tesla's circuit is small. This is also good. Tesla declares that the "magnifying transmitter will prove most important and valuable to future generations". Tesla is the inventor of the AC electrical generator, radio, etc.

Why is the Magnifying Transmitter called "unuseful?" Will the actual voltage always exceed the design voltage before a "useful" level of power is transmitted?

I wonder if evacuating air from the tower would help improve the design voltage.

Michael H 34 18:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34[reply]

"It has been proposed by some that Tesla was utilizing Earth's magnetic fields' extremely low frequencies in a global resonator of power and information. Some posit that this variation of the Tesla coil was mainly intended for wireless transmissions of information."

Tesla did not claim the Magnifying Transmitter as his greatest invention as a device to transmit information.

Please fix this.

Best wishes,

Michael H 34 22:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34[reply]

The article should be more cautious about Tesla's claims. I've read all of his published articles (I was lucky to have access once to a complete collection of Electrical Experimenter, where he published many articles and photos). And I've read his Colorado Springs notebook. He really provides no proof that he resonated the Earth with this large oscillator. He talks about seeing some periodic rise and fall of its voltage at some times. This was not careful science, and many Tesla fans are in danger of embracing a sort of crank-science viewpoint about this work. I do not believe the Magnifying Transmitter is suppressed work, I believe it simply did not work. DonPMitchell 05:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Potential error

Cripple Creek residents near the lab would observe sparks emitting from the ground to their feet and through their shoes. Electrical sparks could be observed from the local water main that was used, at times, as a ground connection.

Does anyone know the source for this line? It's hard to see how Cripple Creek residents could be near the lab in Colorado Springs unless they weren't in Cripple Creek. -Willmcw 23:35, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know the source for the line. It should be that the "Cripple Creek residents could hear thunder coming from his lab. Colorado Springs residents near the lab would observe sparks emitting from the ground to their feet and through their shoes." I'll make the change. - Anon

Rhetorical question: How do we know what it should be if we don't have a source? -Willmcw 01:09, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

IIRC, the PBS video has it. There are other sources (Man out of time (book)) might have it. I'll look for it (and ref it when I find a source).

Current version

Version wiht new images http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Magnifying_transmitter&oldid=134582077

J. D. Redding 16:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The current version of the article is better without the snow job of brown-and-white images that do nothing to illustrate the actual mechanics or history of Tesla's insanity. Please keep this version, thanks. --ScienceApologist 15:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not push your POV.

Please do not remove the relevant images. J. D. Redding 15:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are being uncommunicative again. Careful, a commnunity ban may be in your future. --ScienceApologist 15:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. Do you have a question?

Try not to threaten me with sanctions. A RfC on calling people names and apologistic POV pushing may be needed though.

Please, again, do not remove the relevant images. J. D. Redding 15:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The images are of poor quality and editorially meaningless. They will continue to be removed until better images or explanations can be found of their editorial utility. --ScienceApologist 15:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They are the best images out there.

Please do not remove the pictures. They are all relevant to the article. J. D. Redding 16:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not an adequate explanation. The images are not of illustrative utility and are rather distracting. --ScienceApologist 21:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How are they "distractive"?

They are picture of the Magnifying transmitter, Telsa's experiments with the Magnifying transmitter, and illustrative of the Things done at Colorado Springs by Tesla.

Please restore the historical and relevant pictures!

Please. J. D. Redding 00:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Science Apologist, if you can explain why the Magnifying Transmitter is "Tesla's Insanity", please let us know. If anyone can explain why the Magnifying Transmitter gets a 0 out of 100 for usefulness, please let us know. In this way, you may be able to contribute to this article. Removing relevant pictures is not making a contribution.

Michael H 34 21:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34[reply]

In reference to "sparks drawn from water pipes and soles of the shoes," these remarks might be found in Inez Hunt's book- Lightning in his Hands. I read the exact discussion years ago. Additionally, some have wondered at the value of Tesla's pulse transformer. At a practical level it is one of 3 pulse circuits known to science (this could be argued if low power circuits were included). But at the National Labs the transformer is used to drive high brightness electron guns to ignite Deturium in the hope of obtaining fusion. At a more exotic level the governing equations (both time-dependent voltage equation and the frequency equation) provide new and useful areas for mathematical explorations. The well-funded scientists use the so-called "thin spiral-strip" winding to obtain couplings of 0.6 (and greater) to obtain large efficiencies. There are dark programs in progress to weaponize the transformer both for directed energy concepts and EM pulse bombs to render electronics useless. User:J.R. 10 Oct.2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.179.171 (talk) 21:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

High Voltages, Extremely Low Frequency Currents, Earth's Capacitance as source

Tesla wrote the following:

It is suitable for any frequency, from a few to many thousands of cycles per second, and can be used in the production of currents of tremendous volume and moderate pressure, or of smaller amperage and immense electromotive force. The maximum electric tension is merely dependent on the curvature of the surfaces on which the charged elements are situated and the area of the latter.

Judging from my past experience, as much as 100,000,000 volts are perfectly practicable. On the other hand currents of many thousands of amperes may be obtained in the antenna. A plant of but very moderate dimensions is required for such performances. Theoretically, a terminal of less than 90 feet in diameter is sufficient to develop an electromotive force of that magnitude while for antenna currents of from 2,000-4,000 amperes at the usual frequencies it need not be larger than 30 feet in diameter.

In a more restricted meaning this wireless transmitter is one in which the Hertz-wave radiation is an entirely negligible quantity as compared with the whole energy, under which condition the damping factor is extremely small and an enormous charge is stored in the elevated capacity. Such a circuit may then be excited with impulses of any kind, even of low frequency and it will yield sinusoidal and continuous oscillations like those of an alternator.

Taken in the narrowest significance of the term, however, it is a resonant transformer which, besides possessing these qualities, is accurately proportioned to fit the globe and its electrical constants and properties, by virtue of which design it becomes highly efficient and effective in the wireless transmission of energy.

Michael H 34 19:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34[reply]

Tesla writes in the thrid person here:

"2. The 'Magnifying Transmitter.' This is Tesla's best invention, a peculiar transformer specially adapted to excite the Earth, which is in the transmission of electrical energy what the telescope is in astronomical observation. By the use of this marvelous device he has already set up electrical movements of greater intensity than those of lightning and passed a current, sufficient to light more than two hundred incandescent lamps, around the Globe."

Michael H 34 19:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34[reply]

You need direct citations that the earth is a capacitor or that it has capacitance. You may not "read between the lines" to come up with such an assumption. GlassFET 20:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please restore the edit with the formatted citation. I will find a second cite that notes that the Earth has capacitance. Thank you! Michael H 34 20:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34[reply]

When you have all the citations in order is when to re-add your content. There's no hurry or urgency. You'll also want to justify why it belongs in the lead rather than elsewhere in the article. GlassFET 20:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The earth has a charge of 96,500 coulombs. With a potential of 360,000 volts, the earth constitutes a capacitor of .25 farads (farads = coulombs/volts). If the formula for calculating the energy stored in a capacitor (E =1/2CV2) is applied to the earth, it turns out that the ambient medium contains 1.6 x 10¹¹ joules or 4.5 megawatt-hours of electrical energy. In order to utilize this high-voltage energy you must do two things -- make an energy sink and then devise a way of making the "sink" oscillate."

[[3]]

I agree with you. There is no rush. Thank you for your help.

Michael H 34 20:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34[reply]

Tesla knew that the Earth-Ionosphere is a capacitor (condenser):

"The second fact which I have ascertained is that the upper air strata are permanently charged with electricity opposite to that of the earth. So, at least, I have interpreted my observations, from which it appears that the earth, with its adjacent insulating and outer conducting envelope, constitutes a highly charged electrical condenser containing, in all probability, a great amount of electrical energy which might be turned to the uses of man, if it were possible to reach with a wire to great altitudes."

[[4]]

Michael H 34 01:36, 10 June 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34[reply]

neutrality of this article?

The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please list in bullet style the neutrality issues. Thanks. Otherwise tag should be removed. J. D. Redding 20:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you ask the person that put it there [5] William M. Connolley (talk) 21:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no objection. I will remove it. J. D. Redding 22:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]