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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Inertia Tensor (talk | contribs) at 06:26, 17 January 2008 (→WP:NPOV supercedes WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators may edit, for voting.

Motions and requests by the parties

Formal Checkuser Investigation

1) The Committee is asked to have Checkusers evaluate the material at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waterboarding/Evidence#BryanFromPalatine sockpuppetry connection as soon as possible, to preventatively stop disruption and harassment on Wikipedia.

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Comment by parties:
I ask that the Committee, based on my evidence, privately contact Checkusers to evaluate my evidence as supplied at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waterboarding/Evidence#BryanFromPalatine sockpuppetry connection. Another apparent BryanFromPalatine sock, Samurai Commuter (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki), posted outing information and Free Republic links with personal information Wikipedia editors on the RFAR page tonight (I already mailed Oversight). I simply ask that the Committee investigate this ASAP, as it appears that this person is rampaging through Wikipedia, if I am correct. If Checkusers state that I am wrong, I swear here to drop this sockpuppetry matter and not mention it again. I'm simply concerned that this seems to be getting escalated now by this BFP person. Lawrence Cohen 07:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have posted additional information on another likely/possible BFP sock, Samurai Commuter, and another editor has provided additional research and evidence here. Lawrence Cohen 00:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is a must to say one way or another as these sockpuppeting alligations have already caused innocent noobs to get a wp:BITE. (Hypnosadist) 12:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Proposed temporary injunctions

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Questions to the parties

Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:Lawrence Cohen

Proposed Principles

Purpose of Wikipedia

1) Wikipedia is a project to create a neutral encyclopedia. Use of the site for other purposes—including, but not limited to soapboxing (such as advocacy or propaganda), furtherance of external conflicts, and political, racial, or ideological struggle—is prohibited.

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Proposed. Everything else is secondary or tertiary to making a neutral encyclopedia. That includes pushing advocacy or politics. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We certainly strive for NPOV and WP should not be used as a soapbox, advocacy, or a propoganda tool, but should not be taken to mean that those who disagree with the given wording necessarily fall under this description. WP:AGF applies too. Dismissing someone else's view as advocacy/propoganda/politics without a discussion is implies elitism and is hostile/uncivil: From WP:NPA: "...some types of comments are never acceptable:...Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or not." 131.44.121.252 (talk) 19:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
I do not argue with the statement per se, but your conclusion. Protection of personal information can be an overriding concern to NPOV as are preventing threats. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 21:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since we only publish material from reliable sources, worrying about personal information or undefined threats aren't a concern. Again, why else would anyone be editing this website, except to build a free, neutral encyclopedia? Lawrence Cohen 21:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can publish from reliable sources and still violate WP:BLP, et al. All I am saying is that there are other primary concerns besides neutrality, like personal safety. Such a blanket statement (your conclusion, not the quote) is misleading. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 23:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What does personal safety have to do with an article on our website that is fully compliant with policy? What theoretical harm are you alluding to? Please explain. Are you implying that if Waterboarding is called a form of torture on Wikipedia, someone could come to personal harm in the real world? Lawrence Cohen 23:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Fully compliant with policy" was never stated in this claim. I am referring to improper use of personal information. I can type someone's social security number in and they can have financial problems because fraudulent credit cards are opened in their name (this is simply one example; another is below...). I am not implying that if "waterboarding is called a form of torture on Wikipedia, someone could come to personal harm in the real world." That has nothing to do with this, but such a statement backed by such an interpretation (see the poster's comments) could have reaching consequences that impact more than what is intended. All I am saying is that the statement above is fine as-is. His interpretation that NPOV is the sole primary concern is not IAW Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Policies: "Neutral point of view is a founding Wikipedia principle. Other core content policies are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles." — BQZip01 — talk 04:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your arguments aren't even making sense now, and have no grounding in any interpretation of policy I understand. What exactly are you saying? That some other standard supercedes NPOV, our highest level policy? Lawrence Cohen 06:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
#Stop the insults.
  1. I again reiterate policy (Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Policies): "Neutral point of view is a founding Wikipedia principle. Other core content policies are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles." As it plainly states, NPOV is not meant to be interpreted independently. It is not the "highest level policy". — BQZip01 — talk 06:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I literally did not understand the point you were trying to make, and it wasn't an insult. You seem rather heated for some reason, and I apologize if you took that as insulting. It wasn't meant to be. The three core policies do not supercede each other, but all content must adhere to all of them. This finding as written is also almost always supported in a long history of arbitration cases. If it was not accurate, why would our Arbitration Committee endorse it again and again? Lawrence Cohen 06:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Comment stricken. I apologize as well.
  2. Again, the finding is not the problem. Your interpretation (as stated in your comments) is. Specifically "Everything else is secondary or tertiary to making a neutral encyclopedia." simply isn't true. NPOV is not #1 and "everything else" is a secondary concern. There are policies that should be used in conjunction with NPOV. Again, there is nothing wrong with your finding, but your comments. As long as we agree on this basic principle, then we have nothing to disagree about here. — BQZip01 — talk 18:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Civility

2) Civility is a requirement on Wikipedia; users must act civilly toward one another. Incivility in response to someone else's prior incivility is not acceptable, either. Repeated instances of incivility after requests to desist is grounds for preventative sanctions.

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Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Decorum

3) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably and calmly in their interactions with other users, to keep their cool when editing, and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct—including, but not limited to, personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, trolling, harassment, and gaming the system—is prohibited. Users should not respond to such behavior in kind; concerns regarding the actions of other users should be brought up in the appropriate forums.

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Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Assume good faith

4) Users are expected to assume good faith in their dealings with other editors, especially those with whom they have had conflicts in the past.

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Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose You should not assume good faith in all dealings. The guideline specifically states the opposite:
"This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include repeated vandalism, confirmed malicious sockpuppetry, and lying. Assuming good faith also does not mean that no action by editors should be criticized, but instead that criticism should not be attributed to malice unless there is specific evidence of malice." (emphasis in original)
131.44.121.252 (talk) 19:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
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Consensus can change

5) A previously-accepted consensus may be altered if opinions surrounding it have demonstrably changed.

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Proposed. Consensus can always change. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Consensus should be followed

6) If a consensus is formed, it should be followed unless an extenuating circumstance (such as overriding one of Wikipedia's core policies) prevents it.

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Proposed. Unless a consensus goes counter to a core policy, it should be honored. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a standard that has been applied in multiple RFAR cases and basic site policy before. I looked that specifically up, which is why I added this. Are you disagreeing with all the past precedent on this? Lawrence Cohen 20:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I never said it wasn't a policy. I never said it wasn't an important policy (as a matter of fact, further posts on this page state the exact opposite...and you know it because you've responded to them). I stated it was not a "core" policy IAW Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Policies: "Neutral point of view is a founding Wikipedia principle. Other core content policies are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles.". Furthermore, I have no intention of responding to further inquiries such as these as they are completely off topic and, IMHO, are becoming disruptive in that they are a waste of time. You and I have differing views. Let's see what ArbCom has to say about this. — BQZip01 — talk 04:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have every right to challenge any opinion on WP policy will challenge them if I feel like it. Furthermore, your comments, IMHO, constitute a personal attack and I request you remove your previous comment accordingly.
  • To paraphrase your previous comment, "You can begin by shutting up if you disagree with me. The arbiters are smarter than you." That's the way I took it and it seems pretty uncivil. That is what I am responding to here. Some clarification might be in order if I am mistaken. Saying the same thing in nicer words doesn't change the intended meaning. — BQZip01 — talk 18:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • My point was that us getting into these micro-dissections of each other's comments is of no help to anyone, the arbiters included. The arbiters are smarter than either of us on these matters, or they wouldn't have been elected to serve. But in general, my experience is that if people are able to stand by the truth of what they write, and the convictions behind them, there is no need to defend any and all challenge of them. If they're accurate, the arbs will accept them as such without having to be thoroughly convinced. Lawrence Cohen 18:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Objecting to consensus

7) The proper way to object to a consensus is to get it changed, not to revert war or ignore it. If a consensus is claimed to be invalid under policy, the responsibility lies always with those objecting per policy to demonstrate and prove this.

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Proposed. If consensus is claimed to be invalid under policy, which anyone can claim if they don't like the consensus, the requirement should be on them to demonstrate this--not the other way around. To do otherwise would be that phrase I see here and there: a troll's charter. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Personal attacks

8) Personal attacks are expressly prohibited because they make Wikipedia a hostile environment for editors, and thereby damage Wikipedia both as an encyclopedia (by losing valued contributors) and as a wiki community (by discouraging reasoned discussion). Wikipedia editors should conduct their relationship with other editors with courtesy, and must avoid responding in kind when personally attacked.

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Proposed, obvious, but important here. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Edit warring

9) Edit wars or revert wars are usually considered harmful, because they cause ill-will between users and negatively destabilize articles. Editors are encourage to explore alternate methods of dispute resolution, such as negotiation, surveys, requests for comment, mediation, or arbitration. When disagreements arise, users are expected to adhere to the three-revert rule and discuss their differences rationally rather than reverting ad nauseum. "Slow revert wars," where an editor persistently reverts an article but technically adheres to the three-revert rule are also strongly discouraged and are unlikely to constitute working properly with others.

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Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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POV pushing

10) The term POV-pushing has been coined to describe the aggressive promotion of a certain point of view in a manner which seeks to give that point of view undue weight particularly in article space.

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Proposed, needed for context. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Minority viewpoints

11) Minority viewpoints, such as those held by a small number of sourced, reliably sourced authorities, relative to the popular majority in a given subject area, should not be elevated to any higher prominence or authority than the overriding base of consensus on that subject. See WP:WEIGHT, and WP:FRINGE.

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Proposed. Very important to this case. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. henrik•talk 01:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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WP:WEIGHT

12) Wikipedia articles nor editors should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute.

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Proposed. Crucial for NPOV and to keep the minority or fringe viewpoints at bay on any and all articles, or else they'll overrun Wikipedia. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Banned users

13) Editing on behalf of banned users, or acting as proxy for them, is not acceptable.

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Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Who's who

14) It is not necessary to prove conclusively that multiple accounts are operated by the same person in order to take action against them. Accounts that pursue the same goals in the same disruptive manner may be treated as a single account for arbitration purposes. From Free Republic RFAR.

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Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Restriction of disruptive editors

15) The editing of users who disrupt editing by edit warring, use of sockpuppets, personal attacks or incivility, or aggressive sustained point of view editing may be restricted. In extreme cases they may be banned from the site. From Free Republic RFAR.

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Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Proxy users

16) New users whose behavior matches that of a restricted user may be considered subject to the same restrictions regardless of whether they are actually the same person or another individual acting as a proxy for them. From Free Republic RFAR.

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Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Advocacy and propaganda

17) Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a policy, forbids use of Wikipedia as a vehicle for advocacy or propaganda. From Free Republic RFAR.

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Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Wikipedia and politics

18) Political repercussions play no role in what Wikipedia publishes in policy-compliant articles, and is of no concern to Wikipedia.

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Proposed. Crucially important. If Wikipedia had any reason to be concerned about political ramifications of what we post in articles, we couldn't be neutral. Since NPOV is our gold standard, anything that conflicts with it has to be killed on sight. That includes any nonsense about external political ramifications, for example, if the article calls "Waterboarding a form of torture". That is just one possible example. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think anyone was actually using such arguments. Rather, I was contending that saying "waterboarding is a form of torture" is not NPOV. I was not in any way expressing concern with real-world political consequences. WaltonOne 18:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Immensely false, though rephrasing could definitely improve this and make me change my mind. What wikipedia publishes can affect the real world and needs to be handled accordingly. While I doubt this article is a specific instance where actual policital ramifications will result, WP:BLP and WP:NPA still apply. This phrasing seems to allow anyone to say anything and damn the consequences. That simply isn't true. This simply needs to be narrowed in scope instead of being a broad in scope. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 19:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
  • If an article is policy-compliant in all ways, but someone outside of Wikipedia objects for political reasons, or the material from multiple sources being compiled in one prominent place plays a role in external conflicts, how is that our concern? Lawrence Cohen 20:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't say that...and you never specified "policy compliant in all ways." As an example, if someone is executed because of what someone puts up here, there is a concern for such ramifications IAW WP:BLP. All I am asking is to avoid sweeping generalizations. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 21:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've updated the wording here to add "policy compliant". If an article is compliant with all policies, including BLP, we have nothing to worry about. Your deleted comments mentioned someone could be "executed" because of Wikipedia.[1] What do you mean by that? Lawrence Cohen 21:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • And we wouldn't have something like that from an RS, since a RS that meets our standards wouldn't publish that. Hypothetical: But if the New York Times, the BBC, and all the Wire Services reported that Iranian TV was saying they have four American spies on the run under hot pursuit behind Iranian borders, and Iranian TV and all the sources named them, we would be within our bounds to safely report on this. Lawrence Cohen 23:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You changed your original phrasing and then asked for an opinion based on the previous version. I responded and you used the modified version. This is tendentious editing at its finest to cut me up. I was not referring to something that met standards. We established that, and you ignored it in our discussion here. Please do not change what we are talking about in the middle of a discussion. — BQZip01 — talk 05:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand why you're getting so upset, and not assuming good faith. I corrected an error that you yourself pointed out, that the wording should cover policy-compliant articles. If an article meets any and all of our standards, we have nothing to fear of the outside world. It's quite safe. Lawrence Cohen 06:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you alter the wording back and repost your modified version elsewhere, I have no reason with which I would not support it. Changing your original phrasing mid-discussion makes it difficult to follow what questions are being said. and violates WP:TALK#Own comments (a guideline for talk pages which applies here) "It is best to avoid changing your own comments. Other users may have already quoted you...or have otherwise responded to your statement...Altering a comment after it's been replied to robs the reply of its original context. It can also be confusing." — BQZip01 — talk 18:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree STRONGLY. Most statements made in this world have political ramifications somewhere, the fact that it has political ramifications does not in and of itself make it a political statement. Wiki is not responsible for how others run governments, armies or create policies. The mention of the dinosaurs could be considered a religious statement under this logic as it flies in the face of creationism. Requiring all statements to have no political implications, insinuations or similar would effectively ban writing. Lets go burn books? Inertia Tensor (talk) 03:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Attempts to play politics

19) Attempts to manipulate Wikipedia article content with a concern for external politics of any sort is unacceptable, and potentially disruptive.

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Proposed. Akin to inserting undue external influence on the encyclopedia, or harassing pressure on our private internal operations. Probably should be bannable if ongoing. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • See the original #18, please note it was modified.
  • Although I don't disagree with the principle as written, I don't see any example of it happening here; it's a straw man in this context. Neither I nor others have been trying to promote the Bush administration's agenda (indeed, although I'm a conservative, I'm not an uncritical admirer of Bush). This is about NPOV and how it should be applied, not about politics. WaltonOne 10:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You haven't, but note the evidence page, and there have been numerous instances where editors have alluded to political, legal, or social ramifications that this article could spawn. All the individuals who have made such statements are the ones opposed to featuring torture in the lead. This is part of the proposals that if an article meets our policy standards, Wikipedia has no concerns for external political concerns. Lawrence Cohen 14:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

World view

20) Wikipedia articles should cover a global, world view. If a subject covers multiple nations, for example, it may be a violation of NPOV to highlight one nation's perspective or viewpoint over others. WP:WEIGHT, WP:UNDUE.

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Proposed. We don't write for one national audience's contentment, and never should. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Roughly two-thirds of the world's native speakers of English live in the United States. This is the English language Wikipedia. Neutral Good (talk) 20:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please cite your numbers. There are 250,000,000 citizens in the US. You're excluding all of Canada, the United Kingdom, Ireland, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, much of the Caribbean, and every nation in the world where English is taught as a second language (e.g., Europe and India, who together make the US population look tiny). This is a global project, not a national one. Lawrence Cohen 20:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And 300,000,000 chinese speak english. (Hypnosadist) 14:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also not all american citizens speak english. (Hypnosadist) 14:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

World view

20.1) Wikipedia articles should cover a global, world view. If a subject covers multiple nations, for example, it is a violation of NPOV to highlight one nation's perspective or viewpoint over others. WP:WEIGHT, WP:UNDUE.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Alternate wording, changing "may be a violation" to "is a violation". Wikipedia and it's editors do not have the right to pick favorites. Lawrence Cohen 22:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Highlight" is way too vague. So is "over others". We do not necessarily need equal footing for each nation. What is the opinion of Zimbabwe? India? Morrocco? Do they all get two paragraphs because the U.S. did. Your attempt at finding a middle ground is laudable, this simply isn't it. — BQZip01 — talk 05:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is the problem. You make a rash statement and then alter it to include "if they have just as much sourcing and material." That isn't what you said earlier. If that is what you want to say, then state it in such a manner. This is why laws are so difficult to write. Intent needs to be specifically iterated, not impmlied. Furthermore, population does not necessarily equal influence or openness. Comparing the view of the US government and the people of the US versus the view of the Soviet Union and their people: the comparison isn't necessarily equal if you are using Soviet sources that state "our view is the people's view". A bit of a dramatic example, but I think it illustrates my point. — BQZip01 — talk 18:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) There is nothing rash about my wording, because I very carefully weighed out all of these proposals. This 20.1 was an alternative addtion I put up based on your own comments. The US simply isn't the center of the Wikipedia universe, let alone the English language Wikipedia. From our own article: List of countries by English-speaking population.
  1. United States: 251,388,301
  2. Everyone else: 551,000,000 (rounding down heavily, just adding all the values that are 1,000,000+, and excluding all the -1,000,000 nations because I don't want to spreadsheet this--this is actually closer to 600+ million). The Soviet Union or any other nation has to get equal "screen time" if there is comparable volume of sourcing on a given topic. "population does not necessarily equal influence or openness" is utterly irrelevant. I reject any implied notion that the US or any other nation in any article on any matter is to be given any special anything. It would be like taking a shit on NPOV. Nationalism is wrong. Lawrence Cohen 19:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Unhappy with wording, plus see me on #20. Deliberate highlighting is biased, however not adding content you do not know about is not. I'm sure there is waterboarding in Cameroon, but I don;t know it, can;t verify it with OR, so I can't write about it. too broad Not even sure we need this proposal anyway. Extra can of worms being opened we don't really have to tackle for this. Inertia Tensor (talk) 03:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

21) If a Wikipedia states that something is something, it is doing based on secondary or tertiary sourcing from others only, per original research policies. Therefore, Wikipedia is not required to demonstrate a subject's legal status to make a sourced statement about it, especially considering that Wikipedia is read world-wide, and local laws vary.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Obvious. We don't care about legal interpretations of subject matter more than we do anything else sourced. We just report it. Absence of a legal definition, a point brought up in the waterboarding debates, is pointless to us too. We don't care about something we can't source to exist. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
True, but I think you've entirely missed the point. Those on the "waterboarding is torture" side are backing their views up principally with reference to "expert" legal opinion, and claiming that such opinion is all that matters. In reality, since (as you correctly point out) laws vary between countries, and there is no universal definition of torture, we should not give special weight to legal opinion over political and public opinion. WaltonOne 18:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've never proposed such a thing, myself. My stance since day one has been based on the weight of the sources overall for determining a definition of a thing. If you have 500 sources overall that say Subject is X, and 10 sources that say Subject is Y, that's a pretty clear case supporting per NPOV and weight that we say Subject is X, and make reference down-page or down in the article that a "minority disagrees". My point was that we don't owe any special allegiance to legal definitions as established by legal bodies, as some have alleged we do. Lawrence Cohen 18:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All sources are not equal. The nature of politics is to get the most people to agree with you; that doesn't make your side exclusively right. Furthermore, I think this essay applies. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 19:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
This is one of the core problems, people thinking this is about politics and left vs. right, as your opening statement with partisan speech demonstrated. It's not about politics. Importing political values to Wikipedia articles is unacceptable. If we do that, what political value is more important? The most popular? The most populous? The most popular and populous in what country? From what time period? Lawrence Cohen 21:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Politics and the law are intertwined (don't politicians make the laws?). I disagree immensely. This indeed is about politics and the law. If a legal position on this is that XYZ is PDQ then that should be noted. If other legal experts say XYZ is AOK, then there is a dispute. Acknowledging that dispute proves neither side "right" in court, but acknowledges the dispute. Additionally, perhaps you should re-read my comments above. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 22:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please answer: legal experts and definitions in what nation? What jurisdiction? Where the servers for Wikipedia live? Where the editor lives? Where the reader lives? Where the reader or editor's legal residence and citizenship is? Lawrence Cohen 22:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's worth pointing out that every time the legal issue of waterboarding has been considered by courts under U.S. or international law it's been found to be illegal torture.[2] This holds massively more weight than the opinion of a few politicians and pundits in modern times. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 19:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please state exactly what you're disagreeing with here. Are you saying that opinions should hold more weight on Wikipedia than actual legal findings under both U.S. and international law? Chris Bainbridge (talk) 01:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying they should hold more weight, but that a reasonable conflict/disagreement over whether it is "torture" exists. It is that simple. — BQZip01 — talk 05:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But there is no conflict amongst actual legal findings - every time the legal issue of waterboarding has been considered by courts under U.S. or international law it's been found to be illegal torture. There is not a single actual court case where it has been found that waterboarding was not torture. Actual legal findings from Judges, who are acknowledged experts on the legal definitions of what constitutes torture under the law, hold vastly more weight than the opinions of a very small number of people regarding what might happen in some hypothetical future court case. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 09:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your quoted document starts with a quote from a prisoner who talks about "water cure", not waterboarding (though I admit the distinction may be simply the passage of time), though he is not a legal expert. The next quote states "Congress doesn’t have the power to “tie the President’s hands in regard to torture as an interrogation technique....It’s the core of the Commander-in-Chief function. They can’t prevent the President from ordering torture.” John Yoo, Professor of Law, University of California at Berkeley." It then goes on for 42 pages. I have little desire to read the entire thing because it works from the conclusion that waterboarding (in all forms) is torture. Clearly there is reasonable dissent here. As an example, submitting someone to waterboarding for "days...even weeks" might be torture, but 30 seconds might not be. The same goes for loud music, playing it for 4 minutes is an annoyance. Not allowing anyone sleep because you are playing loud music for 2 months straight, is torture...especially if it is Celine Dion...<shudder> My point is that a blanket statement that this is always torture is not even entirely backed by your own sources (and that particular source seems to have an anti-American agenda). — BQZip01 — talk 19:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Evan Wallach is a U.S. Federal Judge and former Judge Advocate General in the U.S. military. He used to lecture Military Police on their obligations to prisoners regarding U.S. and international law. He has written extensively about the International Military Tribunal for the Far East and post-WWII prosecutions of Japanese war criminals. He is highly respected and has had articles published in the New York Times and many other reliable sources. The particular article I cited was published in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law. It is the most reliable source we have on the topic of the legality of modern day waterboarding, and yet you dismiss it because you can't be bothered to read 42 pages, and you think he is "anti-American". I think that about sums up the standard of this "debate". Chris Bainbridge (talk) 23:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I totally missed that Judge Wallach of all people was called anti-American. A Vietnam veteran with multiple decorations, former JAG, Pentagon attorney, and reknowned legal authority... his bio, according to NEA.gov is here. If any one person from a legal standpoint is a definitive expert on the question everyone is fighting over, it's this judge, who is "one of the nation's most foremost experts on war crimes and the law of war, is a Federal Judge for the United States Court of International Trade." Lawrence Cohen 23:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is a distinction here: I said it seems anti-American, though I probably should have said anti-Bush or anti-Bush administration to make it clear I was referring to the current U.S. government. That doesn't mean he is anti-American. No one is questioning his service, only his opinion. That you throw that in there is disingenuous. I was only stating that the paper starts with people who think it is not torture and the case law goes back to 1946, not 500 years. I do not dismiss it because I can't be bothered to read 42 pages, but because I believe it begins with a predetermined/biased premise. As a whole, it supports your point of view. Fine, I'm not disputing it. Move on. — BQZip01 — talk 01:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

"The value of silence"

22) Wikipedia articles need not consider the lack, or non-existence, of potential sourced material when weighing NPOV.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. In Randy2063's question "What is the value of silence?" he asks what if Wikipedia can make a statement on the subject if there is a potential lack of sourcing to a degree. In regards to how so many governments are silent on statements about waterboarding: "I am saying that there is a huge gap in what we know, and we cannot use that gap to say that everyone calls it torture when so many are silent." The curious question for NPOV here, is, can we make a statement on something if not all possible authorities that exist have weighed in on the subject? Yes, we certainly can. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought that was your claim? "We cannot use that gap to say that everyone calls it torture when so many are silent." I assumed there was evidence that many nations are silent. If not, your argument is a straw man argument. If there is, it is verifiable. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 21:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article never said everyone calls it torture; it called the method a form of torture based on the available sources with notes like [1][2] and so forth, and noted later that some minority groups disputed this in the United States after 9/11. If the article said, "Waterboarding is considered by everyone to be a form of torture," sure, we'd have to source that. But we never said that. Are you saying in any article without "universal" support by all human life, we can't ever definitively say x is y? If so, we have a lot of faulty school textbooks and decades of Encyclopedia Britannicas that need correcting. Lawrence Cohen 21:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please WP:AGF and try not to be so condescending. You stated we can make a universal claim even if not everyone has stated agreement. I disagree with that. Nothing more. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Stating something is x, with sourced footnotes indicating who said it, is not a universal claim. Saying something like your own example, everyone says x is x, would be a universal claim. Lawrence Cohen 22:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"we can make a universal claim even if not everyone has stated agreement. I disagree with that." - Then you disagree with the Holocaust article; not only are there people in the world who haven't said that they agree that the Holocaust occurred, there are people that actually disagree. And yet the Wikipedia article still says that it occurred, despite your line of reasoning. 01:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Stop categorizing my comments in such a malicious, tendentious, and pointy way. I have said nothing of the kind. I didn't say that people disagreed with the Holocaust should be represented. They represent an insignificant minority (3-5% tops...which is usually within the margin of error.) 29% is not insignificant. — BQZip01 — talk 05:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
29% of the sourced notable opinions in our case didn't exist. The last time I checked the waterboarding page, we had approximately 149~ sourced opinions (with the 5 new ones today) that said it was torture, and 4-8~ that said waterboarding may or may not be torture. Incorrect math aside (general polling of the general public isn't a notable opinion), thats an offtopic content issue for this forum. Lawrence Cohen 06:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As User:Henrik points out below, there was a poll which found that "22 percent of American adults and 20 percent of high school students thought it was possible that the Holocaust never happened. Another 12 percent weren't certain whether it was possible or impossible." You are arguing that that Wikipedia can't contain a statement if "not everyone has stated agreement". Not everyone has stated agreement with the Holocaust article; it is an apt analogy and the precedent set on other Wikipedia articles is appropriate here. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 09:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This comparison of polls is laughable. The phrasing isn't the same. "Do you think ABC is DEF" is a far cry from "Do you think that it is possible that GHI is JKL?" 22 percent thought GHI may have thought about the technical capabilities of perpetuating a hoax or other things. They didn't ask about the definition of the Holocaust. — BQZip01 — talk 19:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of the phrasing, the sentiment is the same: the general public is not an expert source. There are many other subjects global warming, evolution, intelligent design, etc. where public opinion is split. This doesn't matter, because these Wikipedia articles don't give undue weight to non-expert opinion. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 23:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Fact vs generalization and NPOV

23) NPOV application does not require articles to state facts with qualifiers, such as "generally considered..." unless there is significant evidence presented that alternative viewpoints are widely accepted. There is never a need for qualifications on statements for any reason beyond sourced demonstration of a legitimate dispute on a scale proportionate to the scale of the article's subject matter.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. The Earth article says the Earth is an oblate spheroid. It doesn't say, "Widely considered to be a spheroid" with a qualification due to some religious beliefs in the world. Global warming says what is, based on sourced evidence, what is known at this time as the accepted cause of global warming, with only the qualification that "individual" scientists disagree, later in the article. We don't qualify Oswald's status as our nation's worst assassin, despite dispute of this in minority and fringe circles. Apollo program says man walked on the moon, and does not qualify this in the lead in any way. Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations says a survey showed 5%-6% of Americans believed the landings were faked. That is on balance more of a ratio than our sources that dispute "waterboarding is torture". NPOV does not require qualifications on statements in articles unless a real need for a qualification is demonstrated. For an article on a subject demonstrating it's use over the centuries, we would need more than a handful of people in the past 3-5 years making contrary statements to have a "dispute" worthy of a qualifier. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Those (the Earth article, Apollo landings etc.) are not good analogies IMO, because they are ultimately matters of scientific/historical fact; in such matters, what counts is informed expert opinion, backed up by evidence. In contrast, the question of what is and isn't torture isn't a factual question; it's a question of opinion. "Torture" is a subjective, emotive, non-factual term, just like "oppression" or "evil". It's established that we don't go around writing things like "X was an evil and oppressive leader"; we dispassionately recount the facts, and let the readers decide for themselves. So we shouldn't say "waterboarding is torture". At best, it would be acceptable to say "waterboarding probably qualifies as torture within the meaning of US and international law, and has been prosecuted as such in the past". WaltonOne 19:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's no such thing as a "historical fact". Everything is subject to modern interpretation of various accounts. Your interpretation means that Wikipedia couldn't report the Holocaust as fact, because there are some people that dispute it. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 19:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are no facts in history? just opinions? I think not. Your analogies about the Holocaust are becoming pointy... 131.44.121.252 (talk) 21:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So you think that there are facts in history? Absolutely, 100% scientifically provable facts? How do you know the Holocaust occurred? Can you travel back in time and verify it? No - you must rely on historical records. Am I trying to make a point here? I'm making an analogy; by your own logic, you are claiming that Wikipedia can not report something as fact if a single person disagrees. My point (and yes, you are quite correct that I'm making a point here), is that Wikipedia already reports issues that some people disagree upon as fact, such as the Holocaust. Do I think that the Holocaust occurred - yes, absolutely. Do some people disagree with that conclusion? Yes, absolutely. Does this mean their point of view is relevant in a Wikipedia article? No. Do I think that you can say "The Khmer Rouge did not commit acts of torture, because torture is a 'question of opinion'"? No. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 01:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I never said there weren't facts in history. I asked you if that's what you meant. As for your assertion that science can't prove things, that is absolutely true. Science cannot prove I said "XYZ" at my graduation, but witnesses can. This is beside the point of this discussion though. You are being pointy to the "point" of being tendentious. — BQZip01 — talk 05:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You have accused me several times now of "being pointy" and have linked to WP:POINT. Either provide some evidence that I'm causing actual disruption to Wikipedia, and not engaged in a legitimate debate, or withdraw your uncivil accusations. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 09:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Very well:
CB: "There's no such thing as a 'historical fact'. Everything is subject to modern interpretation of various accounts."
BQ: "There are no facts in history? just opinions?"
CB: "So you think that there are facts in history? Absolutely, 100% scientifically provable facts?"
I never mentioned "scientifically provable facts", you did. I asked for clarification and you responded with something that hasn't been in the discussion. You also stated you were being pointy. All this amounts to tendentious editing and is inherently disruptive. Furthermore, this discussion is way off topic. — BQZip01 — talk 19:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it was User:Walton_One who claimed that the other articles are irrelevant to this one because they're matters "of scientific/historical fact". I was responding to his post, and pointing out that we can never know anything is truly a fact; what we must do as Wikipedia editors is balance and weight the reliable sources that are available to us. Therefore:
  • You're claim that the issue wasn't already in the discussion is incorrect.
  • I didn't state that I was being pointy - I said that I had a point. You tried to link that to WP:POINT in order to accuse me of being disruptive to Wikipedia, which is a charge that I deny. If you seriously think that I've violated WP:POINT here, then please file an official complaint against me.
  • I note that if the discussion is off-topic, it is because you have made false allegations against me. Do you expect me to not respond, leaving the impression that they have any credibility?
  • Finally, read Fact#Fact_in_History; this was my whole point in in what I said about "historical facts" - "the inherent biases from the gathering of facts makes the objective truth of any historical perspective idealistic and impossible. "
Chris Bainbridge (talk) 23:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Recentism and NPOV in article content

24) "An encyclopedia should take a global and historical perspective, not the perspective of a certain political group in a certain country in a particular year."[3]

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Wording is from linked comment by User:Chris Bainbridge. On a topic that spans a long historical period of time (Examples: History of France, Abortion, Waterboarding), subject matter and opinion cited should not be weighted with a predominately modern view, in respect of NPOV. Per neutrality, an article should cover the scope of opinion on a subject over the years. Recent, new viewpoints and ideas are not entitled to carry additional weight under NPOV. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Too broad of an interpretation. Slavery was acceptable for more than the past 4 millenea. Relatively recent events have shown just how wrong it is. Moreover, the recent past is likely the matter with which most people are interested and the most detail is available. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
The Wikipedia article doesn't say that slavery is bad, so that is a straw man argument. The question is: should we change the fundamental definition of an act that for hundreds of years has been described in a certain way, just to accommodate current political controversy within the United States. If an act has been described in hundreds of accounts as being a certain thing, over several centuries, and no new medical or scientific reason has been presented to change that definition, only a current political dispute within a certain country, should that change the definition of the act? Do we now need to say that the Khmer Rouge, which carried out the act of waterboarding on tens of thousands of people, did not actually commit acts of torture, just legitimate acts of interrogation, because it would inconvenience a certain political group within the present-day United States? Chris Bainbridge (talk) 20:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The Wikipedia article doesn't say that slavery is bad" = my point exactly. Waterboarding shouldn't be described in such terms either. I am not saying that the Khmer rouge were justified or not, merely that a controversy exists. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 22:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is another of the key problems illustrated. A controversy amongst a very limited in scope minority group exists, in one nation, only since the 2001-2004 time frame. Waterboarding however is an article about a practice that sources indicate has gone on since the 1400s, and the Spanish Inquisition. Why would the modern, very recent debate in one nation take center state and prominence on such an article? It would be unbalanced and POV. Recentism, and a controversy of very limited scope and nature. Lawrence Cohen 22:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, the waterboarding article doesn't say that "waterboarding is bad".
Secondly: "I am not saying that the Khmer rouge were justified or not, merely that a controversy exists" - please point out any sources that say there was a controversy over whether waterboarding carried out by the Khmer Rouge was torture or not. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 02:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. It says waterboarding is torture and this is intended to put it in a bad light.
  2. You are taking what I said out of context. I said that there is controversy with regards to waterboarding. Whether the Khmer Rouge were justified or not is immaterial. — BQZip01 — talk 05:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the controversy with regards to Khmer Rouge waterboarding? The controversy you're talking about is limited to present day United States politics. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 09:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can you explain why you feel people are trying to put waterboarding in a bad light by labeling it a form of torture, based on 149 notable viewpoints? Lawrence Cohen 07:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • To use most people are interested and the most detail is available as a basis for basic sourcing contradicts with our policies. Recent, modern thought is not automatically entitled to enhanced weight or value. Lawrence Cohen 20:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I never said it should have enhanced weight or value, but that a controversy exists is a fact, not an opinion. That X is Y (in this case) is an opinion, not fact. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 22:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
By focusing heavily on the modern US controversy, and allowing the opinions of a small group of modern Americans to color the entire historical debate and story of Waterboarding, which predates the existence of the United States, we are indeed creating extra value for people arguing a footnote in modern history. This is incompatible with NPOV, and another example of why we need clarification from the Arbs on the very wide array of NPOV related statements in this workshop. Lawrence Cohen 22:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No one is focusing heavily on anything. Those who want no mention of controversy seem to want no mention of it whatsoever. — BQZip01 — talk 05:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, many of us (myself included) want to mention it with the regional, fringe/minority weight it is according the United States subsection of the article. The controversy, being limited to a very specific set of political circumstances in one lone nation out of 180+ other sovereign nations, however, should have a prominent weight or value in the article lead by any means. It would be very unbalanced. The article is about waterboarding, the general practice. Lawrence Cohen 07:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but you just pointed out that you think it is a fringe opinion. You also think it deserves to be included (contradicting WP:FRINGE). Either it deserves to be included or it doesn't. You can't include it and intentionally de-emphasize it by bypassing its conclusions in the opening sentence. Again, simply because 1 nation opposes it doesn't mean the other 179 nations disagree (this implication is a logical fallacy). — BQZip01 — talk 19:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Including a small, appropriate sized reference to the controversy off of the lead is entirely appropriate, the same way that other topics handle fringe views. Fringe viewpoints do not have wide acceptance. The alleged US view is a fringe view. We need to treat the US administration here the same way we treat any other fringe viewpoint, in any other article: relegate them to less prominent place in the page, and don't let the fringe view dominate the article. It's the same way we handle pseudoscience, medical quackery, and conspiracy theories. The wild or generally unsupported viewpoints get put down in prominence and value accordingly. Your claim of a logical fallacy is a logical fallacy: "Wikipedia articles need not consider the lack, or non-existence, of potential sourced material when weighing NPOV.". I have yet to see a single article that weighs the non-existence of sourced material or evidence with any value. If there some, please show us, so that we can fix them accordingly. Lawrence Cohen 19:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BIAS has some interesting things to say on this topic. Note the bullet points on how torture articles focus on "the relatively few (but well documented) cases of abuse in Israel, the United Kingdom, United States, conducted during their foreign wars and incursions" and "Recentism: Current events (especially those occurring in developed, English-speaking nations) often attract attention from Wikipedians, and are edited out of proportion with their significance." Chris Bainbridge (talk) 00:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Wikipedia is self-contained

25) NPOV is an internal construct of Wikipedia. NPOV and article content is not to be swayed by any theoretical or alleged repercussions, if any, that a article which is compliant with our standards and policies may have on the world outside of Wikipedia, or in how the outside world may perceive the subject of a Wikipedia article because of enforcement of NPOV or other policies. See Depictions of Muhammad.

Note: (In other words, if an article is fine by our internal guidelines, policies, and standards, we simply don't care about theoretical social or other repercussions the article content may have outside of Wikipedia. Please suggest better wording if mine is unclear, this one was hard to write.)

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Critical point. On rereading the various talk pages, I have a feeling this is a major factor, if not the major factor. Wikipedia is the first hit for both water boarding and waterboarding on Google. Wikipedia is considered an authoritative source by many, many people. If you look up water boarding, you will end up on our article. Our article, based on sourcing and lots of slow deliberation, was modified to say "Waterboarding is a form of torture" over time in it's lead as the primary description. It is based on sourcing and outside views of sources a form of torture, just as the rack, Denailing, the iron maiden, and crushing by elephant are all forms of torture. No one in academia or in general really disputes this, except for a very, very small number of people in the United States, and all of them after the year 2001. If people come here, and read the sourced entry that says, "Waterboarding is torture," could it sway outside opinion in the US or world? Maybe, maybe not. I personally don't care. I don't think we have any reason under policy to do so either as a project. Its of no concern to Wikipedia. Based on the partisan, political reasonings people seem to advocate for elevating the stature of the United States opinion on this subject, I think this point, and the "Editors proposed violating NPOV" FOF, are the core of this whole case. Some want to alter the wording to alter public perception, for possibly noble causes; some want to be rigidly NPOV, irregardless of external consequences outside of Wikipedia, no matter how good or bad they may be. I propose that our only duty is to create the best damn articles possible--what people do with them after reading them, in their minds, hearts, or wherever: we don't care. Who is right? Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose See #18 plus your dismissal of everyone outside academia and "in general" (I have no idea who you mean by that) violates WP:NPA. It has been conclusively demonstrated that there is a sizable part of the population that agrees that it is not "torture". Simply dismissing them as unintelligent reeks of elitism. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 19:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
  • As asked above, in the other principle: if an article is compliant with our internal standards, but the availability of sourced information causes political discord in the minds of some outside of this website, why is it our concern? Lawrence Cohen 20:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, on your statement, "Simply dismissing them as unintelligent reeks of elitism," not at all. We don't weigh public opinion polls as factual sourced evidence in the way you're intending. The general public is not a reliable source. Lawrence Cohen 22:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No point in rehashing things. See #18. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 22:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree Critical point with a bearing far belong this article, else where do you draw the line? Wiki and other online, Wiki and other editors in the US, Wiki and governmental implications. Has to be. I would like to see this forked to WP policy by bureaucrats and worded and constructed carefully over time. Inertia Tensor (talk) 03:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

NPOV and national or geographic origin

26) NPOV does not allow that particular viewpoints or sources be devalued based in any part on national or geographic origin. See also.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed per Walton One, excellent idea. Lawrence Cohen 20:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I don't think anyone will dispute this as a principle. WaltonOne 10:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral, I'm not so sure for now but open to persuasion. Have not been happy with the militancy of some US editors here. Inertia Tensor (talk) 03:33, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Single-purpose accounts

27) Accounts whose contributions focus on only a single narrow topic area, especially one of heated dispute, can be banned if their behaviour is disruptive to the project, for instance if they persistently engage in edit wars or in POV advocacy that serves to inflame editorial conflicts. From Transnistria RFAR.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed, from Transnistria RFAR, where it passed 10-0. Lawrence Cohen 00:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, based on wording only, not concept. I think a SPA or other user should be treated the same, should either a SPA or other become troublesome, both can be banned, or topic banned and probated. I am not persuaded as to why the existing rules can't handle this? Open to hearing more.Inertia Tensor (talk) 03:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Nationalistic editing or advocacy is problematic

28) Based on a long history of conflict on Wikipedia involving nationalistic editing, attempting to alter article content with a nationalistic POV of any sort is likely incompatible with NPOV and often becomes disruptive based on the demonstrated history of Wikipedia. Evidence: Dbachmann (Afrocentric/Indian); Hkelkar 2 (Indo-Pak reloaded); TinMing (Taiwan); Certified.Gangsta-Ideogram (Taiwan); Transnistria; Zeq-Zero0000 (Arab-Israeli); Mudaliar-Venki123 (Sri Lankan); E104421-Tajik (Perso-Turkic); Freedom skies (Indian); Occupation of Latvia; India-Pakistan; Armenia-Azerbaijan; Piotrus-Ghirla (Polish/Russian); Hkelkar (Indo-Pak) ; Kven (Kven) ; Ulritz (German/Dutch); GreekWarrior; Kosovo; Zeq (Arab-Israeli); AndriyK (Ukrainian); Stereotek (Turkish); Rajput (Indian); Antifinnugor (Hungarian); IZAK (Israeli); The Troubles (Northern Ireland); Allegations of apartheid (Israel); Dalmatia (More Yugoslavia); Digwuren (Estonia); Bharatveer (India).

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed, refer to evidence. I never realized how disruptive all the nationalistic editors end up being until I saw this last night. Lawrence Cohen 19:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I note that at least two of the most vocal editors on the "torture is disputed" side of this argument are either actively serving, or have served, in the United States military. There is nothing wrong with this, and they are entitled to have their say. But it does present some conflict of interest when the Commander-in-Chief of that military has authorised waterboarding on prisoners, and the point of view they represent would certainly fit with most definitions of nationalism ("loyalty and devotion to a nation", "Pride in one’s country or culture, often excessive in nature", "Close identification with the concerns of a particular country or nation" etc.) Chris Bainbridge (talk) 15:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Conflict of interest under WP:COI is something I hadn't considered. Are active servicemen legally allowed to take stances counter to or in critical nature to the Presidency? If not, that could represent a COI (I have no idea--just tossing it out for consideration). Lawrence Cohen 16:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You could research that, but the slam is cheap and easy to make. The political motivations of those on the "is torture" side have rarely seemed more obvious. Ah well ... O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away" ... htom (talk) 16:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just posited the obvious and applicable question under policy; I wasn't the one who brought it up. COI editing applies to anyone, including the US military, you, and I. Lawrence Cohen 16:33, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nationalism, in this sense, is the promotion of a nation, not a particular political party. There are nationalists of all types: republican, democrat, socialist, communist, etc. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 16:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't appreciate the slam against ADHD, either. I used to publicly wish that those who took shots at those with "invisible" handicaps be inflicted with them, as I was with epilepsy, but I've since realized that they already do, and are in much worse shape than I ever was. htom (talk) 17:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't alter the indentation of my posts, it will confuse the context of the discussion. I have no idea how ADHD relates to this discussion. My post above is about nationalism and politics. I did not mention ADHD in any way, shape or form. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 17:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nor did I mention ADHD. Where did that come from? Lawrence Cohen 17:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(conflict)Sorry about the indent; I thought we were supposed to, to mark different posters. Neither of you appear to have read the essay Lawrence approvingly linked to. "...psychologically probably related, the cranky (nerdy, ADHD) mind caught in pseudoscience ...." Is it more AGF to assume that you read and agreed, that you read and ignored, or that you didn't read at all? Ignored, I suppose. htom (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am totally lost. Where on Earth did I link an essay that said that? The Dbachmann outline of the nationalistic cases? I linked that since it was simply a list of the various RFAR cases that revolved around nationalism, illustrating their disruptive nature, and the disruptive nature that nationalistic behavior has here. Lawrence Cohen 18:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see there was an essay comment upthread on that page I had linked. I'm sorry if that was offensive, it was obviously not my intent, as I would have had no way of knowing you had ADHD. I've just taken the raw list and posted it here as supporting evidence in the statment instead. Lawrence Cohen 18:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Eighteen hours after I make this post I read a slam about ADHD. What are the odds? (OK, that's how to do a diff on something I wrote.) htom (talk) 19:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Considering I've never looked at your contribution history before this very moment, and given that that essay page I found by Googling for Wikipedia plus arbitration plus nationalism has been there for quite some time, a coincidence. Again, I'm sorry if an unrelated passage of text on that large page was offensive (note that I linked specifically to a section far down page, here), a coincidence. Why would I propose a entire section here to slam an editor who was only barely involved in the conflicts on the waterboarding page, over ADHD of all things, by happening to link to an essay chronicling nationalism in RFAR that also had a lone off-color comment about ADHD? Again, I'm sorry, but please to AGF. To assume this was some sort of attack is pretty much completely ignoring AGF and a stretch at that, especially as much of this case does revolve squarely around nationalistic editing. Lawrence Cohen 19:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My disgust is aimed at the writer, not either of you. Please excuse my touch of paranoia; with all of the talking about checking on other users, I was feeling left out, and than that happened. I really did think that you probably had not read that paragraph, or at least I hoped you hadn't, or didn't know I was adult ADD. The coincidence is beyond bizarre, though! htom (talk) 19:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The coincidence is beyond bizarre, though!"
Pretty much sums up 99% of my waterboarding related interactions since the day Alison and I both found it from the initial 100-edit IP revert war. :) Lawrence Cohen 19:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(To Lawrence) I don't know about the US military, but as a member of the Officers Training Corps I'm technically part of the British Army, and I can assure you that it doesn't give me a COI, nor am I prohibited from criticising the government (indeed I support the main opposition party). I don't know if this is the case for more senior people (I'm only an Officer Cadet), but AFAIK the duty of senior generals etc. is to avoid taking an overt political stance, rather than supporting the government's agenda. WaltonOne 18:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is for clarification only, but, yes, I am a member of the US Armed Forces (specifically as an officer in the Air Force). There is only a conflict of interest if I am trying to actively promote something with which I am involved or interested and which is NPOV. Quoting from WP:COI "Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals, companies, or groups, unless you are certain that the interests of Wikipedia remain paramount." The matter of debate here revolves around whether "waterboarding is torture" is accurate or misleading with regards to NPOV as the status of what a "tiny" minority is and whether this group is "tiny" or significant and how to handle such opinions. This academic argument falls squarely in the arena of Wikipedia policy. As such, there is no COI unless someone states otherwise (Such as "I'm doing this because I want to do waterboarding in the future with the U.S. government") Anything else speculating on someone motives is, well, speculation. Furthermore, any opinion I espouse here is my own unless I state otherwise. Americans live in a free country and I am allowed to disagree with the Commander-in-Chief, but not in a capacity as an Air Force officer.
It should be noted that the President (and please note my specific choice of words here) apparently authorized the waterboarding of some detainees. However, there is an order published by the Secretary of Defense which explicitly states that DoD personnel are prohibited from waterboarding a prisoner. As such, any action of waterboarding would be a court-martial offense. The people that did the waterboarding for the U.S. were apparently CIA, not U.S. military. As such, the Commander-in-Chief didn't make such an authorization, the President did. I realize that is seriously splitting hairs and no offense is intended. My point is to clarify positions and roles and, while the same person authorized an action, they did not authorize it for the military. To link the two could be misleading. — BQZip01 — talk 05:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As for the statement above, the major problem I see is that it singles out a group and anyone's opinions can simply be dismissed as "nationalistic" if someone disagrees. Additionally, it is already policy where NPOV trumps POV, nationalistic views notwithstanding. Rehashing it will likely only fan the flames and make the situation worse, not better. In short, it already is covered in NPOV and doesn't need additional ArbCom rulings. — BQZip01 — talk 05:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Self evident. Common sense by admins and users can interpret this correctly. This is why I do not edit anything to do with The North, or the British Army. I'm Irish, and I do have nationalist views on the matter - it would turn to s*** if I did. Inertia Tensor (talk) 06:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

Massive edit warring and incivility

1) There was incredibly intense edit warring on Waterboarding, especially over whether or not the practice can be called "torture" per NPOV and sourcing.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Painfully obvious. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Editors proposed violating NPOV

2) Editors proposed violating NPOV, a core Foundation level policy, by devalueing non-United States sourcing, or sourcing of certain alleged political viewpoints: "Foreign opinion is irrelevant because they haven't necessarily been under the same pressures,"[4] "You mean politically motivated, POV fringe opinions like Human Rights Watch? Or politically motivated, fringe opinions from 100 law professors whose previously published writings indicate membership in the lunatic left-wing fringe? You mean politically motivated, POV fringe opinions like those?"[5]

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is neither helpful nor fair. Editors are entitled to disagree in good faith about what constitutes an NPOV view. For the ArbCom to rule that certain editors had "proposed violating NPOV" would require them to rule on content, which they cannot do. I have no opinion as to most of your other submissions, but this one is unacceptable. WaltonOne 17:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This a FOF based on the statements. It's against policy to disregard foreign sources, as that would be a violation of NPOV--positing that we should disregard sources not from the United States is calling then for violating NPOV. That's not a content matter, since we can't disregard "foreign opinion", so calling for disregarding it is a behavioral and social issue. Either way, what is "foreign"? We have editors from many nations and continents here. To disenfranchise whole countries in favor of another's viewpoints is the height of an NPOV violation. Lawrence Cohen 17:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we should not disregard non-US opinion; however, that's substantially a content issue. To post it as a behavioural FOF like this makes it look as if the editor making that comment had done something wrong in giving their opinions, which isn't the case; he gave a civil and reasoned, though incorrect, view. The second of the two diffs provided is simply arguing that certain sources should not be over-relied on because their authors have displayed evidence of political bias. Without having reviewed the sources, which I haven't done, I can't comment on whether he's right or wrong, but again, there is no behavioural and social issue in him making that comment. (His edit-warring certainly is a behavioural issue, but I'm staying out of that side of the debate.) WaltonOne 18:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, I strongly disagree that this is a content issue--it's a policy one, of whether excluding or minimizing sourcing based on nation of origin is acceptable under NPOV, which I contend it never is. To advocate nationalism is disruptive. Lawrence Cohen 18:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wholeheartedly agree that devaluing sources based on nation of origin is not in accordance with NPOV as I understand it, and I would have no objection to this being stated as a principle (e.g. in the form "NPOV does not allow particular viewpoints to be devalued based solely on national origin"). However, as a finding of fact, it is unhelpful, because the above diffs are not disruptive. We don't sanction editors, or label them as disruptive, for expressing an opinion or for advocating a novel (and in this case incorrect) interpretation of policy. Regardless of what else those two editors may have done, the diffs above are not examples of disruption. Simply put: being wrong is not in itself disruptive. WaltonOne 14:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Concur with Walton One 131.44.121.252 (talk) 20:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:BryanFromPalatine never left Wikipedia after being banned

3) Based on available evidence, it is probable to certain that User:BryanFromPalatine, banned on arbitration here, never left Wikipedia after his enforced removal following the Free Republic RFAR, and that he himself or direct meatpuppets acting for him are User:Neutral Good, User:PennState21, User:Harry Lives!, User:Shibumi2, 209.221.240.193, 68.29.174.61, 70.9.150.106, 68.31.220.221 and any other related Sprint Wireless IPs from the same geographic area that all show a very common interest and positioning in the same articles (Waterboarding and Free Republic) are operating in tandem.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please review my full evidence as presented. These IPs all circulate around locations such as Palatine, Elmhurst, and Hoffman Estates Illinois, any of the three being no more than 19 miles from each other--10 to 15 minutes' drive. What are the odds of all these random, unrelated, with no connection to each other people from this one suburban corner of Illinois all happening to arrive on a page that is a Conservative hotbed, and one of them just happens to be the Checkuser-confirmed IP address (go look at the old Checkuser Request--they confirmed 209 was this BryanFromPalatine fellow), all at the same time? Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed. The "209" IP editor hasn't edited the Free Republic article or its Talk page, nor have I. Based on a review of his User Talk page, neither he nor I want anything to do with that article. Freepers are homophobic neanderthals. I would have an immediate COI editing that article because I am diametrically opposed to them. As the "209" editor has pointed out, 17,000 fellow employees share his corporate IP address; about 13 million people live in Illinois; about 55 million people use Sprint wireless accounts; and Chicago and its suburbs are the communications hub of the entire Midwestern United States, meaning that close to 100 million Internet users have IP addresses resolving to that area. This evidence is so circumstantial that it's laughable. Neutral Good (talk) 20:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly. Your numbers are drawn from whole cloth and without citation or support, I've merely presented all this evidence that does appear that Brian never left. Did you read each link and follow all the evidence? The fact that 209.221.240.193 was removing tags on random users and IPs that were tagged as socks of Bryan? Why would an IP address do such a strange behavior, were it not Bryan? Add in that all these IPs and users seem to praise each other with the same language; all have the same interests, and all geolocate to a 15 square mile radius out in the suburbs of Chicago: coincidence, maybe, but the coincidences start to pile up enough, and you start to have patterns that aren't coincidences at all. There are many Checkusers on the AC. If the evidence has merit, it will stand. If not, not, and I'll drop it. How many coincidences does it take before fact emerges? Lawrence Cohen 20:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, look at this this complete edit history of the IP. Search the text for "Free Republic", and your claim the IP never touched the article falls apart. He was all over it. Lawrence Cohen 20:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're splitting the hairs, Lawrence. The CURRENT "209" IP editor never edited Free Republic or its Talk page. He has only been participating in Talk:Waterboarding since December and during that period, there have been zero edits of Free Republic or its Talk page from the "209" IP address. For that reason, your argument collapses. Neutral Good (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We have no way to demonstrably prove what you're saying, unfortunately--we have no way of knowing if this IP has other accounts, or what they are doing, or if the IP is even one person or ten. My evidence is simple the available non-Check User information we have, all from public records here. Your evidence is all opinion. That's why I presented this, for the various Check Users here to review it. Lawrence Cohen 00:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An experienced, trusted Checkuser admin named Alison took one look at this and said, "no Declined." Neutral Good (talk) 03:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Neutral Good is a single purpose account

4) Based on his own admissions and contributions, Neutral Good is an SPA that focuses just on the Waterboarding issue.[6] The user began performing minor edits to articles of politicians after the start of this arbitration.[7]

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing wrong with being a single purpose account. Neutral Good (talk) 20:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral, no need for motion. I consider him an extraordinarily disruptive editor, who has shown no interest in working with others, and has baited most of us (successfully in many case), however I do not see an issue with the SPA. Yes, he may have tried to broaden the account, but I do not see that as being the issue. Whether it is SPA or not should not detract from the ability of admins to act on its behaviour. Inertia Tensor (talk) 03:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Neutral Good has been a disruptive presence

5) Based on evidence[8].

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've attempted to be a constructive presence. The only thing I've really disrupted is an attempt to WP:OWN the article by people who are violating WP:NPOV. Neutral Good (talk) 19:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please post evidence of these accusations. Thanks! Lawrence Cohen 00:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Neutral Good is a sock or meatpuppet of User:BryanFromPalatine

6) Per supplied Evidence, this user is a sockpuppet or meatpuppet of the banned User:BryanFromPalatine. Per standard Arbcom precedents sanctions on banned users apply to those working for banned users. As such, this user is either blocked as sock/meatpuppets of BryanFromPalatine, or share his same indefinite ban.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed. See argument above. I have nothing in common with the Freepers. I'm diametrically opposed to them. They're homophobic neanderthals, and I would never even consider editing the Free Republic article or its Talk page. Since that was the main focus of Bryan/Dean and since he never edited Waterboarding, Lawrence's entire case collapses. Neutral Good (talk) 20:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This overlooks that BryanFromPalatine, using a variety of sockpuppets as detailed at Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of BryanFromPalatine and Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of BryanFromPalatine, moved all over a wide array of conservative topics, pressing a distinct POV--the same as the 209 IP, the Bob IPs, and yourself are doing. Stacking coincidences keep dropping the odds of them being coincidences further. He often migrated, it appears, to whatever the hot-button political topic of the day was, beyond Free Republic. Waterboarding besides the War is the hot topic today. Lawrence Cohen 00:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have already survived two Checkusers and both came back "Red X Unrelated." No Wikipedia editor except me has ever used this IP address. If another editor had used this address, it would have been turned up in one of those Checkusers. You haven't addressed trhe fact that neither I nor the "209" IP editor has edited the Free Republic article or its Talk page. Freepers are scum, and review of his User Talk page confirms that the "209" IP editor agrees that Freepers are scum. A review of the alleged sockmaster's edits, as well as the edits of "Dino" and his other RFCU-confirmed socks, proves that there's no way he could have stayed away from that article, and he defended Freepers ferociously. Without fail. Without exception. He always went back to that article, and he always defended the Freepers. Your case has collapsed. Neutral Good (talk) 03:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are a disruptive presence, that appears to be unwilling to read the link I gave you before. Look again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=5000&contribs=user&target=209.221.240.193
Do you not see the Free Republic edits there? Declined does not mean vindicated, also. Lawrence Cohen 06:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do you see any edits at all of the Free Republic article, or its related pages, from my account or my IP address? You don't. Like the "209" IP editor, I believe Freepers are a plague on the Internet. Your case against me, like your case against the "209" IP editor, is a failure for that reason alone. Neutral Good (talk) 01:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree Very weakly, I'd rather leave this to the pros. But where there is smoke... he has accused others, including me of all sorts of puppetry. As a child I remember pointing a police car out to my dad, he remarked, you only notice them if you are guilty of something. I would be interested in knowing who used the word puppet first? Inertia Tensor (talk) 03:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Shibumi2 is a sock or meatpuppet of User:BryanFromPalatine

7) Per supplied Evidence, this user is a sockpuppet or meatpuppet of the banned User:BryanFromPalatine. Per standard Arbcom precedents sanctions on banned users apply to those working for banned users. As such, this user is either blocked as sock/meatpuppets of BryanFromPalatine, or share his same indefinite ban.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed. Shibumi2's problem is that he has a shared IP. He can't control what other users of that IP are doing. The Checkuser admin who produced the  Confirmed finding, which is the cornerstone of Lawrence's argument, personally unblocked Shibumi2. In that Checkuser case, Shibumi2 hadn't even been named as a party, indicating that even Lawrence didn't find anything wrong with Shibumi2's editing pattern. I believe ArbCom's review of Shibumi2's editing pattern will likewise produce a finding that Shibumi2 is not a sock or meatpuppet of BryanFromPalatine. My review of Shibumi2's editing at Free Republic indicates no similarity with BryanFromPalatine, who was trying to whitewash the article. Neutral Good (talk) 23:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was rather shocked when I saw on the GooseCreek RFCU that Alison had named Shibumi2 as implicit in the sockpuppeteering, and that was in fact what led me to begin suspecting that something deeper was going on. When the patterns of the IP contributions began to sort of swirl about with language similar to what I saw BryanFromPalatine using in the Free Republic RFAR, and that many of these IP ranges and Shibumi2 all contributed there, and that the IPs also "pumped" up Shibumi2 as a model editor despite English "obviously being his second language," the very sorts of wording you yourself have used in places, and on the now deleted Shibumi2 RFA that you initiated, I began to look more and more. When Black Kite alluded to suspicians that the IPs all seemed to come from the same basic area, I poked more, and saw that they all came from BryanFromPalatine's literal neighborhood. Like I said, coincidences are one thing, and aside from that brief archiving misunderstanding I never had a major problem with Shibumi2, but at some point the incidental coincidences stack to where the card house won't seem to fall over. Lawrence Cohen 23:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that Shibumi2 was unblocked by the checkuser (Alison) does not mean the checkuser result was incorrect or vindication for Shibumi2, per supplied evidence. henrik•talk 23:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I left Alison a note, about all this, in case she wanted to weigh in here as the expert CU that worked on the original case. Lawrence Cohen 23:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:
Ok, I was the checkuser that ran the GooseCreek case and yes, I was surprised that Shibumi2 was implicated by the checkuser data but it was pretty incontrovertible from the evidence. Having entered communication with Shibumi2, I unblocked his account largely per WP:AGF and per the blocking policy as I felt he had both learned a lesson from this and was unlikely to re-offend. I do not accept, however, that he was not involved in sock-puppetry or meat-puppetry at best - the evidence was stacked against him and his emails didn't really go towards explaining things. I also had another checkuser do a quick check and their findings tallied with mine. As checkuser data is private information, I cannot go into detail here, though I can provide my findings directly to the Arbitration Committee if required. In my unblocking mail to Shibumi2, I did say the following, "At this point, I am willing to unblock your account in good faith and allow you to resume editing. However, I will *not* state in your unblock message that you are innocent, other than to state that I'm unblocking per email agreement and per WP:AGF.". Shibumi2 agreed to this and was subsequently unblocked - Alison ❤ 09:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The various "Bob" Sprint Wireless IPs are socks or meatpuppets of User:BryanFromPalatine

8) Per supplied Evidence, this user is a sockpuppet or meatpuppet of the banned User:BryanFromPalatine. Per standard Arbcom precedents sanctions on banned users apply to those working for banned users. As such, this user is either blocked as sock/meatpuppets of BryanFromPalatine, or share his same indefinite ban.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed. There are 55 million people using Sprint wireless accounts. This evidence is extremely circumstantial. Neutral Good (talk) 23:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And coincidentally, a lot of those 55 million Sprint subscribers (where are you getting that number? that would make them something roughly the size of Comcast plus America Online combined--my Sprint/Nextel stock isn't doing that well) all seem to route through an area regional to Palatine/Elmhurst/Hoffman Estates IL, a random suburb home to BryanFromPalatine, and all seem to constantly find their way to edit Free Republic and Free Republic's talk page with similar language, goals, and apparent interests? Did the Free Republic forum membership get a group deal to use Sprint Wireless on their laptops? Lawrence Cohen 00:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see where you're getting the 55 million users from. Sprint Nextel says their company has that many (unsourced, of course) subscribers. Given that they are the amalgamation of two major cellular providers, that would mean all subscribers: telephone, cellular, wireless, other internet, dial-up. They can't have 55 million wireless subscribers because they don't even offer wireless with all their services. Lawrence Cohen 00:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So how many million wireless Internet users do you suppose they have, out of that 55 million? Is it one million, three million, ten million, 20 million? Any idea? Neutral Good (talk) 01:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose it will depend on how many IPs the Checkusers find. Lawrence Cohen 01:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

209.221.240.193 is User:BryanFromPalatine

9) Per supplied Evidence, 209.221.240.193 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) when speaking on conservative interest topics, such as waterboarding, Free Republic, or conficts related to it, are the banned User:BryanFromPalatine.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed. There are 17,000 people sharing that IP address. The 209 IP address has not been used to edit the Free Republic article or its Talk page since last winter. It was not used to edit Waterboarding or its talk page before December. This evidence is extremely circumstantial. Neutral Good (talk) 23:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is little evidence, beyond the assertion of the 209 IP itself that 17000 people share that address. Even if true, no or few others appear to use it for editing wikipedia. henrik•talk 23:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Few" is enough. Reading the contribs, I see an editor with a lot of interest in Telex Communications; a different editor with a lot of interest in Waterboarding; a third who seemed very interested in Clemson University; and a fourth editor (or perhaps several editors) with a broad palette of interests, including (very briefly) Free Republic. That doesn't tell us anything about the registered accounts that have used that IP address. There could be several hundred, or a dozen, or two or three, or none at all within the past 30-60 days available to be spotted by a Checkuser. But based on the contrib history of the unregistered "209" IP address alone, you have nothing. A veteran Checkuser admin took one look at this and said, "no Declined." Remember? Neutral Good (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We certainly remember, as you keep reminding us each day. In any case, based on the sockpuppetry abuse research done by Black Kite, myself, and BenBurch, and based on the endorsements scattered throughout this RFAR, I've asked for a formal investigation as a motion. Lawrence Cohen 00:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note the Clemson University reference and editing timelines; User:ClemsonTiger is a confirmed abusive account of BryanFromPalatine. Lawrence Cohen 01:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Based on what? A shared IP address? The parent corporation at that IP address is consistently one of the top 20 patent grantees in the world. That means lots and lots of engineers: intelligent, inquisitive, collaborative minds, perhaps the ideal sort of place to find Wikipedia editors. Clemson University is perhaps the best engineering school in the American South, and alumni of all US universities tend to stick together and hire fellow alumni. Thus you might find a cluster (suspiciously large, in your eyes) of Harvard University grads at one firm, and another (suspiciously large) cluster of Yale University grads at another. It would come as no surprise that this particular company might have more than one Clemson grad. It even has a factory located in South Carolina. Neutral Good (talk) 01:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Based on a block by a Checkuser, see here. Are you saying that Checkuser was wrong? BryanFromPalatine's consistent defense on his Checkuser pages and talk pages was that he shared his computers, and always revolved around "many" people having access to the same network resources he did. Oddly, all these unrelated and innocent people had the same language usage, and all seemed to migrate to conflict on "Conservative" issues, almost all ended up posting some comment or another at Free Republic, and many of them tried to remove references to User:BryanFromPalatine and User:DeanHinnen from various pages. Strange behavior. Why would they all sound similar to BryanFromPalatine, migrate to conservative issues, and try to scrub references especially to the DeanHinnen username from Wikipedia? Lawrence Cohen 01:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just saying that like every other creation of man, Checkuser is capable of error. And so are you. This particular "209" IP editor has shown no interest in Free Republic. Your case against him is a failure. Neutral Good (talk) 01:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All for the Checkusers and Arbiters to decide. I just presented my share of the evidence. Your declaring something a "failure" any more than my declaring it "likely" is only worth the effort we each took to type in the words here. Lawrence Cohen 01:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral Good is unnaturally familiar with checkuser protocols for a new user who essentially edits only one article. Occam's razor isn't foolproof, but the circumstances here weight strongly against Neutral Good. Jehochman Talk 12:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:
I'm inclined to err on the side of the IP in this case. It resolves to http-v.us.bosch.com. Googling for 'http-v' finds many, many references to bosch.com hosts, broken out in to several countries, i.e. http-v.de.bosch.com. Searching for published weblogs containing this string typically have this string as the highest or only bosch.com hostname. I would AGF that this IP address is a corporate proxy, or by far, the single biggest web surfer in Bosch's US offices. The former seems far more plausible, and the latter seems rife with bad faith and disingenuity. Achromatic (talk) 05:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed remedies

NPOV disputes to the community

1) The community is directed to figure out the NPOV problems on Waterboarding, considering the guidance on general NPOV issues detailed in this case.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. It's not the AC's job to answer the is/isn't torture question. Give that part back to us. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, although I'm not sure why you posted an essentially contradictory proposal in the "Findings of fact" section. WaltonOne 17:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're referring to this one, I presume. I put forward there that it's a behavioral question, not content. Lets see what others say there. Lawrence Cohen 17:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Waterboarding is limited to 1rr for one year

2) For one year, beginning at the close of this arbitration case, Waterboarding, and any sub-pages are limited to 1rr for any users. Each violator may be blocked by any uninvolved admin for 24 hours, with the duration rising for subsequent violations.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. I can't think of another way to stop edit warring beyond permanent protection and enforcing editprotected requests and demonstrated consensus for each change. While that would be a great building exercise, with no nonsense, it wouldn't be right. This sanction the edit warriors, and leave the productive good faith people alone. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Waterboarding is placed on Article Probation for one year

3) For one year, beginning at the close of this arbitration case, Waterboarding, and any sub-pages, or related pages (including User talk pages or Wikipedia space pages where Waterboarding is discussed) are on probation. Any editor performing tenditious editing, disruption, or personal attacks judged as such may be blocked by any uninvolved admin for 24 hours, with the duration rising for subsequent violations.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. I'm begging for this. Absolutely, if not a single other thing passes from this arbitration, pass this one. Things on this article will likely further degrade and disruption to Wikipedia increase without a strong hand to stop it, as this moves closed to November 2008 and the elections. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Neutral Good blocked for 60 days

4) Due to his ongoing disruptive actions and tenditious editing, Neutral Good, operating under any screen name, is blocked.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed per evidence of disruptive actions and edits, repeated personal attacks, edit warring. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Neutral Good blocked for 90 days

5) Due to his ongoing disruptive actions and tenditious editing, Neutral Good, operating under any screen name, is blocked.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed per evidence of disruptive actions and edits, repeated personal attacks, edit warring. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Neutral Good blocked for 180 days

6) Due to his ongoing disruptive actions and tenditious editing, Neutral Good, operating under any screen name, is blocked.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed per evidence of disruptive actions and edits, repeated personal attacks, edit warring. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Neutral Good blocked for one year

7) Due to his ongoing disruptive actions and tenditious editing, Neutral Good, operating under any screen name, is blocked.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed per evidence of disruptive actions and edits, repeated personal attacks, edit warring. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Neutral Good is banned as a sock or meatpuppet of User:BryanFromPalatine

8) Per User:BryanFromPalatine's previous sanctions, including the Free Republic RFAR, this user is banned and his confirmed (disclosed willingly by himself) IP of 76.209.226.118 is blocked.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

User:Shibumi2 is banned as a sock or meatpuppet of User:BryanFromPalatine

9) Per User:BryanFromPalatine's previous sanctions, including the Free Republic RFAR, this user is banned.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Confirmed "Bob" Sprint Wireless IPs are blocked as a sock or meatpuppet of User:BryanFromPalatine

10) Rather than do a "range" block on all of these, any of these which are confirmed to speak in this same "Bob" voice, which echoes stances as detailed in Evidence, all confirmed onces will be blocked as ban evasion by User:BryanFromPalatine.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

209.221.240.193 is blocked as User:BryanFromPalatine (option 1)

11) Per User:BryanFromPalatine's previous sanctions, including the Free Republic RFAR, this IP is restricted from editing. There is no legitimate evidence beyond his own statements that "16,000" people use this IP. These 16,000 do not appear to use Wikipedia for editing. To prevent further disruption originating from this IP, a hard block is set on this IP indefinitely.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

209.221.240.193 is partially blocked as User:BryanFromPalatine (option 2)

12) Per User:BryanFromPalatine's previous sanctions, including the Free Republic RFAR, this IP is restricted from editing. There is no legitimate evidence beyond his own statements that "16,000" people use this IP. These 16,000 do not appear to use Wikipedia for editing. To prevent further disruption originating from this IP, a block is indefinitely set on it preventing anonymous editing and account creation from 209.221.240.193, with an explanation of why in the block message.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. Please refer to links and evidence. I prefer Option 2 over Option 1, above. Lawrence Cohen 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Proposals by Nescio (talk · contribs)

Proposed Principles

A definition of torture exists

1 Torture is defined by both US and International law.

Comment by Arbitrators:
This should have been discussed at the disputed article's talk page. I would not consider it as a principle to solve this case since the ArbCom has no authority to issue judgments or principles on content. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 15:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(For the record, we did discuss it extensively at the disputed article's talk page. However, I agree that it is a content issue. Sorry for writing in the arbs-only section, but I felt this needed clarification.) WaltonOne 19:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know it was discussed at lenght and that's why we are having this case. But still that doesn't mean that the ArbCom has to deal with that. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 18:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by parties:
Propose: since apparently people think the law should not be viewed as a legal principle. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 17:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The Arbitration Committee cannot rule on content. This is a content issue. WaltonOne 17:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. While legal bodies may define things for their own internal purposes, that has no bearing on Wikipedia. We define things in content based on sourcing only. Lawrence Cohen 17:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response to FayssalF: Like Walton says, it was discussed at length. Part of the problem is that there is a fundamental disagreement as well by multiple parties of how to apply definitions of RS--i.e., should an alleged authoritative body like a court system have more "weight" over matters that may fall under their purview, or should medical boards have more "weight" over matters related to medical topics? This FOF as written is a pure content matter, but it's a good example of the disconnect happening, where folks on one side are applying fairly wide exclusionary principles to what has value as a RS, when all the RS themselves individually are fine. Lawrence Cohen 19:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

2 Identifying certain acivities as possible crimes against humanity may have political consequences, i.e. Armenian genocide. This does not alter the legalities involved, nor should Wikipedia attempt to change legal concepts in favour of non-legal arguments.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Please see my comment at the section above. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 16:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by parties:
Propose: politics are important but we should let experts have the last say on how to interpret the law. Politicians and pundits cannot be used Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 17:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. While it's true that Wikipedia should not attempt to change legal concepts in favour of non-legal arguments, it's a matter of opinion what constitutes a "legal concept", and I don't think torture (or, for that matter, crimes against humanity) are solely legal concepts. Furthermore, as stated above, this is a content issue and the Arbitration Committee cannot rule on content. WaltonOne 17:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. A content issue, and Wikipedia defines things according to it's own internal policies and standards. If an article is policy compliant, external social or political ramifications from that article content are not our concern. Lawrence Cohen 17:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Their opinions as politicians have value in regards to debates in their own country, yes, but if an American politician makes a statement about such and such, why would that trump the wording of an entire article, which covers a global topic, in a world-wide encyclopedia? We keep coming back to this nationalist thing: the US isn't the center of the universe, let alone the Wikipedia one. Lawrence Cohen 22:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • And we haven't. There has been extensive talk to incorporate the notable opinions as found. However, the minority US viewpoints aren't anything special. They're just general opinions no more important than any other. They are to be treated them with the same general weight as any other sources. Lawrence Cohen 06:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • They are marginalized after analysis because the viewpoint of the current US administration is a minority viewpoint by our standards. Awkwardly, it's a very prominent minority opinion, given who is alleged to hold it, but that makes it no less minority. I don't if that is what is upsetting to people. Applying NPOV, WEIGHT, and FRINGE standards no matter who makes a minority statement or takes a minority viewpoint--be it the US, the United Nations, or the Vatican--would be a testament to Wikipedia's values. Lawrence Cohen 06:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They are marginalized WP:NOR|after analysis because the viewpoint of the current US administration is a minority viewpoint by our standards. Awkwardly, it's a very prominent minority opinion..." Wikipedia policies and guidelines address this explicitly (emphasis mine): WP:FRINGE "...all significant views are represented fairly and without bias, with representation in proportion to their prominence." which is further backed up in WP:WEIGHT (part of WP:NPOV) "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all...We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views...Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties." — BQZip01 — talk 19:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this specific content case, the view that waterboarding isn't torture explicitly is held by a tiny minority, of which a handful of the membership is "prominent", while most are not. It is the textbook definition of a minority fringe view. The fact that a handful of prominent US politicians holds that view makes it no less so. It doesn't belong in the lead, since to give extra prominence to the views of 10~ Americans in the past 5 years over all other historical data and opinion from the past 500 years would be outrageously biased in favor of alleged modern American conservative political thought. I don't understand how this is even debated. To give this minority view any more than a footnote would completely give far too much weight to the opinions of 10~ individuals, more weight than all of the combined history of the topic that predates the United States itself. Lawrence Cohen 20:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Non-experts are not a reliable source

3 The opinion of non-experts -i.e. politicians, religious leaders, pundits- cannot be used to establish consensus, or lack thereof, between experts on a given topic.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed: several topics have had claims of widespread debate, yet among experts there appears to be consensus making the topic disputed among religious and political individuals. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 17:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both of these principles are true but irrelevant, since torture is not solely a legal concept, and thus there is no such thing as an undisputed "expert" in what constitutes torture. Furthermore, as I said above, the Arbitration Committee cannot rule on content. Determining expert consensus is a matter for the community. WaltonOne 17:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, but for different reasons. If a weight of sources and notable opinions exist on subject X, we can certainly make use of that under policy. Lawrence Cohen 17:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Most politicians, such as Ted Poe and Rudolph Giuliani, are licensed attorneys and therefore experts on the law. Other politicians, such as Ron Paul, are licensed physicians and therefore experts on the medical effects of certain events. Some so-called "pundits," such as Andrew C. McCarthy, are also licensed attorneys and therefore experts on the law. Neutral Good (talk) 19:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is a general rule. Non-experts are not equal to experts, i.e. teach the controversy to advocate a widespread debate among experts on Intelligent Design, A non-physician stating Mucoid plaque is a medical condition, et cetera. Second, the point is that being a politician is not sufficient to be an expert. Of course, a politician with a law degree, or medical degree, can be considered to be knowledgable on topics that fall within the scope of his/her studies Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 10:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per previous three opposes. See #2 for more info as well. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 22:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
Comment by others:

Public opinion not a reliable source

4 Invoking public opinion cannot be used to establish consensus, or lack thereof, between experts on a given topic.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Propose: despite the fact this is considered a logical fallacy people unfortunately seem to think public opinion is a reliable way of establishing the details of a certain topic. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 17:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See my comments above. WaltonOne 17:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Global warming. Even if 5,000,000 people in a poll said Global Warming were "fake", that doesn't supercede all the other sourced material and opinions available. Wikipedia is not Gallup. Lawrence Cohen 17:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This statement misrepresents the argument. You aren't just establishing consensus. You're trying to dismiss the "waterboarding may not be torture" experts as WP:FRINGE. When they represent 29% of the general population, they can't be dismissed as a fringe. There's a significant dispute about the question of whether waterboarding is torture in all cases.
While I recognize that this may be a content issue, I would very much appreciate any guidance the arbitrators can provide on what role public opinion polls should play with respect to WP:WEIGHT. Under what circumstances can an article simply state something as a fact without hedging (and then explain related controversy later in the article)? —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 21:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"When they represent 29% of the general population, they can't be dismissed as a fringe." - why not? That's essentially what the global warming article does. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 20:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent comparison. Lawrence Cohen 20:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was just thinking the exact opposite. Just because it is done that way on another page doesn't make it right. If Johnny jumped off a bridge... (in short, this is simply poor/lazy logic as to why we should/shouldn't do something). 131.44.121.252 (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
Your logic is in error, because that standard is applied to many articles. The global warming article is a model of how to do things right for NPOV. Lawrence Cohen 20:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The global warming article is a model of how to do things right for NPOV." Your opinion (doesn't have consensus as a policy or guideline as far as I can see)...comparisson of apples and oranges. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 22:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the guideline is right here, on why polls are to be avoided as Wikipedia sources, especially for contentious matters: Wikipedia:Reliable source examples#Use of statistical data: "Statistical data may take the form of quantitative or qualitative material, and analysis of each of these can require specialised training. Statistical data should be considered a primary source and should be avoided. Misinterpretation of the material is easy and statistics are frequently reported ambiguously in the media, so any secondary reference to statistical data should be treated with considerable care." Lawrence Cohen 22:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually...see here 131.44.121.252 (talk) 23:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Public opinion can be used to prevent dismissal of opinion as WP:FRINGE

When a majority of expert opinion reaches one conclusion and a minority of expert opinion reaches an opposite conclusion, public opinion may have some weight in determining whether the minority of expert opinion is a WP:FRINGE.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Proposed. see above. Neutral Good (talk) 19:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: clearly the idea of allowing public opinion to influence what experts consider to be the consensus is unacceptable. Invoking public opinion is a logical fallacy for a reason! Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 10:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Goes against already established precedent of global warming, intelligent design etc. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Precedence. Unscientific, uninformed or may only be aware of one side. Mob rule? Inertia Tensor (talk) 04:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Regarding WP:FRINGE

5 When 92% of sources state a certain position and 3% opposes that position the latter can be described as "ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study."

Comment by Arbitrators:
The claim that all or most field experts, scholars, legal experts or politicians hold a certain view requires a reliable source. Without it, opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources.
I will be trying to answer Ka-Ping Yee by saying that if, and only if involved users already agree that most of experts define it as X then i don't see where is the problem except the behavior of users who do not fathom something like the "the shape of planet earth is oblate spheroid round though a minority believes it is flat" formula. It is the most neutral way to deal with it. Does it change any facts? No. Is it misleading? No. If involved editors follow these guidelines they would be no need to argue about FRINGE anymore. And please do not forget to take note of my first paragraph. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 16:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by parties:
Propose: this is at the heart of the debate, does 3% constitute a fringe opinion? Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 18:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification: this is to establish a quantitative rule for determining whether some views can be considered fringe, i.e. is this when the view is held by <1 %, <5%, <10%, <15%? Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 14:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. In this case, the 3% include Rudolph Giuliani, former US Attorney for the Southern District of New York and possibly the next president of the United States; Michael Mukasey, Attorney General of the United States; and Andrew C. McCarthy, former assistant US attorney for SDNY and now director of the Center for Law and Counterterrorism. These are very prominent legal authorities. Any one of them is worth the weight of 100 law professors. Neutral Good (talk) 19:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We have an Iranian politician voicing doubts regarding the Holocaust. By your logic since he is a notable individual his views establish an actual dispute among experts regarding the veracity of it having taken place. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton
No, NG didn't say that. He pointed out that, in addition to being notable political figures, both Giuliani and Mukasey are in fact lawyers, and therefore, by your own definition, fall within the community of "experts". WaltonOne 14:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"These are very prominent legal authorities. Any one of them is worth the weight of 100 law professors." This sounds like political status and not expertise is used to argue that a numerical tiny minority should be given equal weight. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 14:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you that it is not true to assert that "any one of them is worth the weight of 100 law professors". We cannot, and should not, judge which authorities have more expertise. Therefore, as suggested, we should state in the lead that the majority of legal experts consider waterboarding to fall within the definition of torture in US and international law, but that a minority have challenged this assertion. Where a minority dissenting opinion is held by experts, we should not act as if said opinion does not exist and the majority opinion is unchallengeable fact. We should highlight the conflict. Both sides are likely to be politically biased, so we shouldn't take that into account at all. (We're going off-track here anyway - this is fundamentally a content issue and the ArbCom will not rule on content.) WaltonOne 16:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"We cannot, and should not, judge which authorities have more expertise." Wikipedia editors do this every day. How else do you explain that the global warming article represents the views of climatologists, if the community did not come to some consensus regarding the expertise of notable people in this area? Otherwise we would be crediting political pundits as being at the same level as Professors. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Global warming is a scientific topic and a matter of interpreting scientific fact; we therefore give the views of scientists more weight than those of non-scientists. In contrast, the question of what is and isn't torture is not a factual question; it's a question of opinion. "X is torture" can never be a matter of fact; arguably "X is classed as torture under US and international law" could be stated as a matter of fact, but that's a different debate. (I don't really think the global warming article is a good example anyway of how to handle controversy, but that's also a different debate.) WaltonOne 20:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I note that one of the common threads in this debate is that one side believes that articles from disputed concepts like global warming, the Holocaust etc. have established certain precedents on Wikipedia, whilst the other side has said that these articles are not "a good example anyway of how to handle controversy", "POV-pushing" and "not a precedent, but rather a cancer in the system.".[9] [10]Could arbitrators please rule on this - are the other disputed articles "good" as regards Wikipedia policy, or are they flagrant violations that should be discounted? Chris Bainbridge (talk) 01:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then there's the third option: they aren't part of this discussion and this issue should be decided on its own merits, not how other people do things. — BQZip01 — talk 19:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thats not how Wikipedia works, unfortunately. Policy is based on established practice. Lawrence Cohen 20:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Um...no Policy is the "codification of general practice that already has wide consensus," not merely that a lot of people do it. — BQZip01 — talk 20:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone doing something = de facto consensus. That's just the way it is. Lawrence Cohen 20:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Everyone"? There is no case where "everyone" does something. Someone always deviates from the norm. This is a gross overgeneralization. A lot of people vandalize, does that make it a policy? I grow weary of this argument. It shows how little you understand actual policy and guidelines. You also clearly intend to get the last word in. Please feel free to put it after my signature. — BQZip01 — talk 20:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While I recognize that this may be a content issue, I would very much appreciate any guidance the arbitrators can provide on how the counting of sources bears on WP:WEIGHT, and how to handle conflicting opinions about how sources should be counted. (This also bears on the item below, "Single vs. multiple sources".) Under what circumstances can an article simply state something as a fact without hedging (and then explain related controversy later in the article)? —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 21:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I just realized where you are getting this 92% figure and it is a DIRECT contradiction to WP:OR. I can throw together a list of people who support the concept of waterboarding too. Additionally, while this is merely an essay, it certainly applies here. — BQZip01 — talk 04:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Single Source vs. Multiple Sources

When multiple experts sign a single letter or petition, or author a single article, it must be treated as one source rather than multiple sources for the purpose of determining a consensus of expert opinion.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Propose. Here we have 115 left-wing law professors signing a form letter to the attorney general, claiming that waterboarding is torture. They are being treated as 115 separate sources and this is severely skewing the determination of expert consensus. If each of the 115 had authored a separate, published article in a law review stating that "waterboarding is torture," then they should be treated as 115 separate sources. But this is a form of astroturfing and should not be rewarded. Neutral Good (talk) 19:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: when the BBC cites 10 experts on a topic it is misleading to let WP say that only one experts has that opinion. CLearly it is acceptable, if not mandatory, to disclose the actual number of experts that hold a particular view. As an aside, the "115 left-wing law professors" appears to introduce the notion that 1 editors can disallow "left-wing" sources for allegedly being incorrect, 2 it is NPOV to allow only "right-wing" law professors. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 10:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We should not be counting. We should look for a reliable source that states what the community of experts thinks. We cannot conduct our own poll of experts. Jehochman Talk 16:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. By this flawed view of sourcing policy, valid sources such as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) would be invalid, because "all" the scientists globally signed on together, rather publishing individually. Dangerous precedent. Lawrence Cohen 16:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose terminology is all off. The problem is that 1 source states that, and I will concede it is a strong source backed by 100+ experts. If we are counting sources here, then there is one source. Again, just for the sake of clarity, we are talking about counting sources, not the number of experts. To say there is more than one source is misleading. To say that a number of experts agree on it is not misleading. This confounds the situation and provides no clarity. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 22:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Biased loaded proposal. Has no place here. Editor is trying to emotionally disqualify any opinions that do not conform to his, and was been consistently unable to provide counter sources. Where are the 100 right wing lawyers? Inertia Tensor (talk) 04:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would you consider THEELDERS.org one source, because they have united on AI's universal declaration? Nelson Mandela, Graça Machel, Desmond Tutu, Kofi Annan, Ela Bhatt, Lakhdar Brahimi, Gro Brundtland, Jimmy Carter, Fernando H Cardoso, Li Zhaoxing, Mary Robinson, Muhammad Yunus, Aung San Suu Kyi? I get to meet one next week :-) Inertia Tensor (talk) 04:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Regarding WP:WEIGHT

6 When detailing a certain subject that has a global history of > 500 years, to take comments made after 2001 in only one country, to sway the contents of a historical view would violate "Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute."

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Propose: another part of the debate. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 18:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Request ArbCom codify or at least help mediate what a "tiny minority" actually is. Furthermore, "To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute." Note that it says not to give it too much weight, not none at all and that it might be misleading. Clarity on ArbCom's part might be useful here. — BQZip01 — talk 19:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Regarding WP:V and WP:NOR

7 To dismiss sourced information claiming the sources used are misunderstanding the subject violates: "care should be taken not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources, or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source, such as using material out of context."

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Propose: we do not interpret and/or correct sources. The fact we consider the information incorrect is irrelevant, if it is verifiable it can be used. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 18:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:


Regarding WP:NPOV

8 To disallow sourced information claiming the sources used are perceived to be biased in one particular direction while not objecting to sources that are perceived to have an opposing bias violates: "NPOV requires views to be represented without bias. All editors and all sources have biases - what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article."

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Propose: one of the core principles on WP, we should not insist on removing sourced information we dislike while at the same time advocating the use of similar information supporting our personal view. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 15:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:


Regarding WP:NPOV

9 Wikipedia should be consistent in applying policy and guidelines, if a given article cannot state as fact what another, yet similar, article can say this means that either the fact can be presented as such, as the similar article does, or the other article should remove that statement of fact. Both positions are mutually exclusive.

Comment by Arbitrators:
Comment by parties:
Propose: consistency is a way to avoid a double standard on how to write articles, i.e. waterboarding vs. Rack (torture). N.B. please observe the use of the word torture in the title. If something applies to article X it applies to article Y. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 15:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Yet, we have Solitary confinement, Blackmail, Shunning, sleep deprivation, etc. all of which are sometimes called torture. A black & white answer is not forthcoming because there is a disagreement. Reflection of this disagreement is all that "the other side" is asking for. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 22:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This of course defies logic. CLearly there are people that consider "cleaning your room," and "do your homework" a form of torture. It is not prohibited to use common sense. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 17:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your implication that my statement is illogical and lacks common sense is very condescending. I used these examples because they are on the torture article. — BQZip01 — talk 19:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I concur fully with 131 above. "If something applies to article X it applies to article Y" is simply untrue, because X and Y might have fundamentally different characteristics. We should write each article based on the sources available, not try and present it in the same way as other topics that we personally regard as "similar". WaltonOne 12:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you misunderstand the principle. 1 Policy applies to every article on WP in the same way, 2 If we are discussing fruit, we should treat every article about fruit the same, if we discuss medicine we should apply the same rules to these articles. In this particular situation an article describes abusive techniques that historical and legal sources consider to be torture. Surely you are not suggesting we should claim waterboarding and the rack do not share the same characteristics? Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 13:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They do not share the same characteristics in that the rack is universally agreed to be a form of torture, while this classification is disputed in the case of waterboarding. I agree that policy applies to every article in the same way; however, this dispute is not about trying to make "exceptions" for politically controversial articles. It is about whether we can state an opinion ("waterboarding is torture") as if it were a fact. WaltonOne 16:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On what ground is waterboarding is a form of torture, opinion while the rack is a form of torture is not an opinion, i.e."I agree that policy applies to every article in the same way?" Second, does "universally agreed to be a form of torture" include the individuals that throughout history have not considered this to be torture, as is the case with waterboarding? Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 16:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For the same reasons that Solitary confinement, Blackmail, Shunning, and sleep deprivation can be considered torture. — BQZip01 — talk 20:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Artificial drowning interrogation was universally agreed to be torture from 1478 - 2002. And now a very small minority of politically motived experts disagree, but they have no court rulings or medical/scientific evidence to back them up. This does not a dispute make. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 19:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a requirement to have scientific evidence or a legal case to state that a controversy exists. — BQZip01 — talk 20:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

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1) {text of proposed finding of fact}

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2) {text of proposed finding of fact}

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Proposed remedies

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Proposals by User:Ka-Ping Yee

Proposed Principles

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1) A sourced claim that describes a fact as "disputed" does not, in itself, prohibit an article from stating that fact.

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I support this principle. But this is a key turning point of the debate, and while it may be a content issue, I would greatly appreciate guidance on this question from the arbitrators. WP:ASF describes an opinion as "a matter which is subject to dispute". Does the mere claim that "X is disputed" in a newspaper article automatically guarantee that X is, in fact, disputed and cannot be stated as fact on Wikipedia? I would say no (e.g. evolution is described in the press as disputed by creationists, but Wikipedia is still allowed to present evolution as fact), though the existence of such claims may mean that the article ought to mention them (i.e. state X, and later describe the controversy surrounding X). Some clarity on when an article can state X, when it cannot state X, when it must state X in a qualified way, and when it can state X as long as it also mentions controversy about X, would be very helpful, I think. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 22:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you mean to say the fact a source reports/describes a particular dispute does not in itself prove such a dispute actually exists among experts, i.e. Holocaust denial, teach the controversy. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 15:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This principle is certainly true, BUT does not directly apply to the situation at hand. Those who oppose the current wording have more than one example (not a single instance). That said, I have no problem reaffirming this principle if for nothing else than clarity. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 19:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
The other controversial issues cited by User:Nescio above also have more than one example. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 09:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Proposals by User:BQZip01

I am EXTREMELY new to this process, so please...be gentle...

Proposed findings of fact

WP:NPOV supercedes WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE

1) WP:NPOV supercedes WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. Anything in WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE that conflicts with WP:NPOV should be rewritten to be in line with WP:NPOV. Clarity on this point should be emphasized in WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE

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This should be stated as a fact, not opinion or a principle. This is a policy on Wikipedia, not a guideline.
  • I agree with the statement (although this would usually come under Principles rather than Findings of fact). You're absolutely right - NPOV is a core Foundation issue and is probably our most important content policy (along with WP:V) so it supersedes anything else. WaltonOne 08:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The interaction of these principles are pertinent to this conflict, and clarification on their interaction would be appreciated from arbitrers. henrik•talk 10:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Henrik, this is one of the cornerstones of this dispute and clarity would help. (Hypnosadist) 12:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disagree, (with purpose of this proposal) Agree probably, sometimes, maybe a lot of times, but is anyone disputing this or are we wiki lawyering here. I don't think it genuinely got to a dispute over priority and conflict of these polices, and some of those in the dispute in the past have tried to game things to claim that FRINGE THEORIES decisions of the editors were completely overruled by NPOV, when frankly many of us, if not MOST of us would say that this was not a case of NPOV. If someone really wants to WIKILAWYER I would answer WP: Ignore All Rules, because frankly this whole project would turn into a smouldering mess if say elsewhere, one person with a fringe theory claimed NPOV because she/he didn't like the concensus that it was fringe and then said NPOV stops anyone complaining about their fringe theory. Same goes for undue weight. Common sense should always apply, Wiki is not a court, and narrow reading will bring us in perfect little circles as the example above shows. I would ask the arbitrators to consider this example and provide guidance for how to apply such things as shown in my example. Inertia Tensor (talk) 06:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Significant Minority Views

2) If a significant minority disagrees with an assertion of fact, such a statement must be altered to reflect this view. (emphasis added 05:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC) for clarity)

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I realize this is a proxy statement on content, but without a concrete statement one way or the other on this application of WP:NPOV, this argument will not go away. A controversial conclusion of this kind cannot be permitted to exist on Wikipedia. What constitutes a significant minority should be better defined. I don't want wikilawyering to take over, but without a clear statement of what a significant minority is, a minority view can be dismissed by pointing to WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE.
  • Clearly when 92% of experts voice an opinion which only 3% of experts oppose it is difficult not to see that as fringe. To suggest that public opinion should sway that view is interesting. Today a large group of US citizens feel that there is more to 9/11 than has been disclosed so far. Your logic effectively means that those offering alternative scenarios no longer are fringe and those views are not conspiracy theories but should be presented as a genuine dispute among experts.. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 09:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Written policy just describes what the accepted current practices are. Do all 3,000,000 Wikipedia editors all have to weigh in on policy matters? Policy as written is what the current accepted practice is on any given matter. Lawrence Cohen 20:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To the two responses above, the precedent is dangerous only if a strong minority exists (in which case such an opinion should be included, IMHO). The Holocaust undeniably happened. That a small percentage say it didn't is merely an indication as to how pliable some people's minds are. Furthermore, we are not talking about an event where people are witnesses and there is photgraphic proof, but an opinion on terminology. Furthermore, where is the poll that says 29% of people believe the Holocaust never happened? This is a comparison of apples to oranges. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 21:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (User:BQZip01)[reply]
Here: "A November 1992 survey (now in dispute) conducted by the Roper Organization for the American Jewish Committee found that fully 22 percent of American adults and 20 percent of high school students thought it was possible that the Holocaust never happened. Another 12 percent weren't certain whether it was possible or impossible."[11]. Now discredited because of ambiguous wording, it nonetheless presented about the same figures as the poll in question and shows that polling is in general a questionable practice for factual matters. henrik•talk 22:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That a third thought something was possible or were confused is a far cry from the polling done in the example given on the talk page. That one poll is dismissed doesn't mean all polls are wrong/misleading. 131.44.121.252 (talk) 23:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, but we shouldn't use primary sources like polls anyway: Wikipedia:Reliable source examples#Use of statistical data: "Statistical data may take the form of quantitative or qualitative material, and analysis of each of these can require specialised training. Statistical data should be considered a primary source and should be avoided. Misinterpretation of the material is easy and statistics are frequently reported ambiguously in the media, so any secondary reference to statistical data should be treated with considerable care." Lawrence Cohen 23:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"treated with considerable care" ≠ "we shouldn't use" 131.44.121.252 (talk) 23:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read the content guideline again; that bit you quote is for secondary sources based on a poll. Polls themselves are to be avoided. That needs to be clear. Either way, we historically don't write articles based on random public factoids from polls, because general public opinion ≠ WP:RS. Lawrence Cohen 23:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BQZip01"the precedent is dangerous only if a strong minority exists (in which case such an opinion should be included, IMHO)" - Right, so to continue the example.... you believe that the opinions expressed in this poll [12] should be included as representative of fact in Wikipedia articles? That a large percentage of people (in some countries, the majority) believe that "Jews have too much power in the business world" means that this "fact" of public opinion should be taken into account in every statement made on any Wikipedia article relating to Jewish business interests? Because that's what you've asserted with your idea that "significant minority views" should affect every statement. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 02:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What specifically would be altered. That criticism exists is certainly notable in its own frame of reference, but that a business leader (who happens to be Jewish) made $2 million last year is immaterial as it is a simple fact. What article would you associate with this reference?
Reading this again, it is dangerous, as it would allow for any number of insane conspiracy theories, and POV pushes to take hold of Wikipedia. People will be able to alter Abortion to say, "Abortion is the murder of an unborn child," and claim this sort of precedent for that, because "a lot of people believe that," or who knows what else. If something is a minority view the impetus is on them, and the editors who want it included to demonstrate it's value and worth at all times. Either way, this proposition here is dangerous as it would basically be handing edit warriors and POV pushers a loaded gun to write Wikipedia to their own standards. Lawrence Cohen 23:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it would advocate the exact opposite: that someone can't state that specifically because a significant part of the population believes otherwise. — BQZip01 — talk 05:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But your logic on the torture question is that if a "significant minority" disagrees on a point, the article must clearly and prominently reflect that. By that logic, since a "significant number" of people say that abortion is murder, that can be placed in a prominent way there. Of course, the othe side can say a "significant number" say it isn't, and then the article lead will have to hem and haw over murder, and we'd have the article become a war zone. We don't do any of this, thankfully, since it would be a total disaster. We especially don't do this with minority, fringe viewpoints. Lawrence Cohen 06:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, please read my postings above regarding WP:FRINGE and WP:DUE, prominence plays a key role here. An ArbCom ruling on what is a "small" or "tiny" minority actually is would halt a lot of this bickering... — BQZip01 — talk 20:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've read your postings, but these minority viewpoint figures are prominent only in limited political circles in one country in the world. In the global sense, which is all we're after, they are a footnote and aberration towards all the other compiled history on the topic of waterboarding. Lawrence Cohen 20:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't call world news on CNN, ABC, CBS, FOXNews, MSNBC, Al Jazeerah, BBC, etc examples of "limited political circles". — BQZip01 — talk 20:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I beleave "limited political circles" means the right wing (not all) of one political party in one country, and that is limited on a global scale. When you add the recentism of these views they get VERY limited. (Hypnosadist) 12:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't make them less prominent. Prominence can be one-sided. Again, we are talking "Prominent", not "accepted by all". If they are discussed on many news outlets, they are, by definition, prominent. (Please note, I am not discussing application of prominence at this time, only that such views are indeed prominent). — BQZip01 — talk 05:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We don't rate sources on how famous they are, many members of the South African (and other african governments) don't believe HIV causes AIDS, we should not change the AIDS article because of their political positions. (Hypnosadist) 06:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Prominent" not "famous". There is a distinct difference. — BQZip01 — talk 06:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the topic of waterboarding, they are, given that approximately 10~ notable people have gone on record to say waterboarding may not be torture. Lawrence Cohen 20:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OR — BQZip01 — talk 04:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How exactly is saying that only 10~ notable people are on record is OR, when we have only 10~ people on record? Lawrence Cohen 05:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We have 10 web sources versus ~40 web sources (we are talking sources not people in agreement here). To make a conclusion based on the number of web sources is original research. As for the number of people who are in agreeance, that number is approximately 2/3 in favor of it being illegal, 1/3 against. Respectfully, I think that it qualifies as a significant minority view. The assertion that it is 92% is ludicrous and is original research (a conclusion based on non-scientific polling methods). — BQZip01 — talk 05:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Several points 1)We don't count sources by numbers as if they are all equal, they are not, we give more prominence to more qualified sources. 2) we don't just have web sources, every book writen before 2001 also calles it torture but still no pre-2001 not-torture sources are to be found. 3)We have medical, legal and lingustic sources that say its torture, you have two minor politicians and a handful of pundits. (Hypnosadist) 06:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your nationalistic bias having been burst like a balloon, this is laudably absurd wikilawyering. Well done. This is exactly why we're at arbitration; disruptively over the top methods that are literally everything but the kitchen sink hurled at NPOV until something sticks. Well done! Lawrence Cohen 06:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your comments are extremely hostile and I request you pull them IAW WP:NPA. Consider this a warning. — BQZip01 — talk 06:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quantity of opinion

3) Quantity of opinions found online versus the quantity of opposing opinions should not be used to assert a specific viewpoint as a fact. Doing so constitutes original research.

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Though such a discussion clearly emphasizes a point and can used to reach a consensus among Wikipedians, it is not the standard by which declarations of fact are made in Wikipedia. I expect several opposes on this one, but I would like to hear your opinions on the matter.
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Proposals by User:Jehochman

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Proposed findings of fact

Locus of dispute

1) The locus of dispute is waterboarding.

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Ordinary measures insufficient

2) Ordinary measures of community-based dispute resolution have been insufficient to prevent edit warring and disruption.

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Multiple parties

3) The dispute has involved a large number of parties, including sock puppets.

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Article probation

1) Waterboarding is placed on article probation for one year.

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Proposals by User:Henrik

Proposed Principles

Controversial subjects

1) Wikipedia users that chose to edit on controversial subjects should do so with the understanding that they are expected to cooperate with editors of other views. While this is true for all articles, the standards are higher on controversial subjects. Repeated use of disruptive argumentation, such as fallacies, combativeness, incivility and a failure to work towards consensus—is prohibited.

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Proposed. henrik•talk 21:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose; I think this is quite dangerous. We should not label editors as "disruptive" for expressing an opinion, even where that opinion is wrong. Yes, editors should ideally try to work towards consensus, but this is an aspiration, not a requirement; we should not sanction users just for vocally disagreeing with the views of others. As to incivility, we already have a perfectly good policy on that which doesn't need to be stated; instances of gross incivility should be, and indeed are, dealt with through normal channels. There's no reason to have a separate policy for "controversial" articles. WaltonOne 22:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If editors refuse to cooperate with others of other views, then it will be impossible to reach any consensus. This is one of the cornerstones of Wikipedia. Violating it means it will be impossible to create a stable article. All editors should work towards consensus. At some point, editors who disagree and are not backed by the majority of reliable sources must accept that consensus is against them. The same arguments can't be repeated forever. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 02:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We must sometimes tell editors to cooperate or leave. Jehochman Talk 12:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support, this is standard and commonplace. Lawrence Cohen 14:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Article probation

2) The Waterboarding article is placed on article probation. Editors making disruptive edits may be banned from the article and its talk page by any uninvolved administrator. Any editor that continues to edit in violation of such a ban may be blocked as specified in the enforcement ruling below.

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Proposed. Variant of probations proposed by Lawrence Cohen and Jehochman. Wording from a recent arbitration case. henrik•talk 21:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Needs to be elaborated. How do you define a "disruptive" edit? An edit that the nearest admin doesn't like? If you're advocating a wider definition of "disruptive" because of this being a controversial topic, then spell out exactly what "disruptive" means in this instance. If you're just giving it its usual meaning (e.g. 3RR violations, personal attacks etc.) then there's no need for this proposal. WaltonOne 22:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Proposed enforcement

Enforcement by block

1) Should any user subject to an editing restriction violate that restriction, that user may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one year. All blocks are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waterboarding#Log of blocks and bans.

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Proposed. From a recent arbitration case. henrik•talk 21:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Proposals by User:Z

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General discussion

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