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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mindspillage (talk | contribs) at 13:52, 24 April 2005 (let's try this again, I swear it was right in preview). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was MERGE. Marked for deletion, not deleted due to block compression errors. Jinian 12:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Radio KoL

Ok, so it gets a few thousand Google hits, but this is an internet radio station. I doubt it is notable. The article itself is quite poor, and needs cleanup, and the fact it includes a list of (presumably) forum user names isn't very promising. Internet radio stations generally aren't notable and I think this one isn't notable enough for it's own article. As it is part of a MMORPG, I think it should be merged in to Kingdom of Loathing or deleted. Hedley 02:41, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete. 66.91.63.100
    • I've formatted the above IP vote properly, it was inserted as 'delete anon ip'. Hedley 02:53, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Radio KoL is run seperatly to the main Kingdom of Loathing site. The radio station is paid for by donations to itself and out of the pocket of (I think) artsychick and SeveredToe. Its only connection to KoL is its recognition as the Radio Station for KoL. Yes, the article is poor. In fact, ive noticed the link to the featured stations is broken (though, the replacement page fails to work, which is why im not going to update it just yet). Im hoping on improving the contents of this article. I dont think the article should be deleted. I would prefer if it was maintained as its own seperate entry. but if the need be, I wont argue about merging it into the Kingdom of Loathing thread. DaCyclops 02:54, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Users only contributions have been to Radio KoL, an article related to Radio KoL and this VfD. Hedley 02:58, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • If you wish to improve the article now is the best time. I don't think the fact it is not ran on the Kingdom of Loathing site is relevant, it is the KoL station and hence is best placed in the KoL article, otherwise I can't see the encyclopaedic notability. Hedley 02:58, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong keep This radiostation is extremely notable. We have a lot of poor stubs on webstations and I don't know why you decided to choose this particular article. I'll quote myself one more time. "I could explain in many ways, why the station is notable, I'd just say it's THE ONLY radiostation based around a MMORPG, not even Everquest has something similar. It works 24 hours a day, all djs are people who play the game and they waste up to 4 hours a day on the radio. A truly notable radiostation.". radio "kingdom of loathing" gets 5000 hits. The station is fully independent from the KoL, it is not part of the game and it's real, working and popular radiostation. It shouldn't be merged, but rather stay on it's own. Please research before proposing such ridiculous deletion requests. Grue 04:33, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I'd hardly say it was ridiculous. Web stations generally aren't notable, I did some research, and nothing came my way to show why this is notable. If this stays, the show articles should definetly go, or be merged. As you are the writer, i'd say strong keep is a bit POV, because its a 'Keep' at best. I'm perfectly justified in listing this VfD. Hedley 16:48, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Your Google search is unfair, and brings up too many Kingdom of Loathing results. The search "Radio" "Kingdom of Loathing" brings up the same amount, although less than 5,000 hits is hardly notability.
  • Keep but needs revision, if it's a popular radio station, then it's a popular radio station. The language is poor though, so I say keep&revise. Asriel86 05:27, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Notable. --Fuzzball! (talk) 05:58, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge. I think this is important enough within the KoL community to deserve a section in the KoL article, but I would be shocked to learn that it had any signifigance outside of said community. Indrian 15:19, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep per the above. Radiant_* 15:56, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC) convinced now. Merge per the below. Radiant_* 09:22, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete No better than any of the millions of Internet radio stations. If this stays, then every real station with an actual radio-frequency output must stay, and a good deal of those don't make the cut either. Chris 00:55, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Exactly. Furthermore, this station isn't one of the most popular ones - None of Shoutcast's front page stations have an article, bar Virgin Radio, as it is an FM feed. The fact Radio KoL only has 200 slots on a 24kbps mono stream means it could never be as notable as any of those stations - Why should this be an exception? The fact it is the only known MMORPG station is irrelevant, it can be explained in Kingdom of Loathing. Hedley 01:30, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • So how many radiostations can you name that have 24/7 of live shows, without replays or hour-long music sequences. I bet only a few. If there is one web-based radiostation that deserves its own article, it's that one. Grue 04:54, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • See [1], theres a lot there with five times or more the listeners of Radio KoL. To my knowledge, only stations like Digitally Imported deserve an article. Thats on Wikipedia and it is one of few that deserve inclusion. If this survives theres no way you can VfD any station with more than 120 listeners, which is just above what KoL had when I checked last night. Hedley 17:18, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • You know, these with thousands of listeners are commercial radiostations. As far as indie radios go, they couldn't be much more popular than rkol. However I was not talking about popularity here. You could have a bland dj-less top 40 radiostation, and it could be very popular. Or you could have an adfree radiostation with ~20 djs, each having his/her own unique personality, working for free, playing music that you won't hear anywhere else. Which of these deserves an article more? Grue 18:15, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
          Note User originated Radio KoL article, and has most contributions to it. Chris 15:43, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
          • The notable one, which is the Top 40 radio station with a lot of popular. A lot of those stations are not commercial. I've worked for non-commercial, 'indie' stations more popular than 'KoL'. One of our rivals was deleted; They picked up five times as many listeners as KoL. KoL doesn't need its own article, it should be merged. Hedley 18:24, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
            • For the info of both of you, I've worked on what Gure would call an "indie" radio station. We easily have loads more than 200 listeners while on FM, not to mention several national industry awards over the year. If this keeps up, I'll have to write an article about it. 131.251.0.8 15:28, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) (This is me forgetting to sign in. Chris 15:43, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC))
  • Merge and redirect. Not inherently notable. -Sean Curtin 22:18, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect. Meelar (talk) 22:19, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
    • Merge and redirect to where? You don't have to be a Kingdom of Loathing player to listen to this radiostation, which is notable by itself, and is independent from the Kingdom of Loathing creators. Grue 06:06, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • If it isn't merged into Kingdom of Loathing it should be deleted. That is the only place it could be reasonably put. Hedley 16:55, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Does the delete include the presenters that have pages? Things such as Inari-chan feel more like vanity pages, and I don't feel that they are notable. - Estel (talk) 13:04, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
    • Most of them are already listed. Since this one wasn't linked from the main page, it slipped through. Grue 14:08, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I think this situation should be handled in the same way that any other article would. It is possible that someone might search of the phrase "Radio KoL". Would this search go to the appropriate page if it was merged with the "Kingdom of Loathing" page? If so, maybe they should be merged. yawgm8th
  • Keep but needs revision. RKoL is unique. I don't really feel that comparisons to other streaming radio stations is fair, since it's not remarkable for being a radio station, but rather for being the only MMO-related, player run station. It's like comparing Koeberg to a lot of the US reactors. The only reason Koeberg has an article while they don't is because Koeberg is South Africa's only commercial Nuke power plant. Same with RKoL, it's the only MMO station. And yes I am a South African KoL player Synkronos 13:09, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
    • (Above user has 10 edits, of which 5 are to the KoL page.) Being the only commercial nuclear power station in South Africa is a convergence of three general qualities - there are loads of commercial power stations, loads of nuclear power stations, and loads of power stations in South Africa, but only one which is all three. "MMORPG-connected", however, is verging on the trivial. OK, there are lots of radio stations, and lots of Internet sites. Most netradio operations are run by amateurs with no experience of broadcasting for real, so "player-run" doesn't really say anything. But while there are lots of MMORPGs, there are few things which you can say are MMORPG-related. It's like saying I'm notable for being the only DJ on my small station to recycle TV presentation elements from the 1980s on a music quiz show (which I do, to great effect). 131.251.0.8 15:28, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) (This is me forgetting to sign in first. Chris 15:36, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC))
  • Keep and possibly merge. I have edited the entry at great length - and yes, this is the first time I've contributed to Wikipedia, but hopefully that does not count against me in some nebulous manner (considering the point of a wiki is for people with knowledge of an article to edit it, even if it's the first time they've done so or even stumbled upon the page.) Hopefully the new entry describes the uniqueness of the station a bit better. That being said, I don't believe there's a problem with making it a sub-section of Kingdom of Loathing as long as that does not obstruct a search for Radio KoL - and the personality pages that have popped up should definitely be sub-sections of Radio KoL. 155.41.112.1 15:44, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I have edited above users signature to direct to the IP, as Haplo3k signed with the link [[User:155.41.112.1|Haplo3k]]. Hedley 16:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Darn - I guess I didn't get it all right on my first try after all. I assumed that would be the correct format, due to the others I was seeing. How's this instead? Thanks. 155.41.112.1 (Haplo3k) 17:39, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • You sign by typing four tildes, like this: ~~~~. When you do that, it'll automatically change. I changed your signature as IP votes don't count often. Hedley 21:15, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
          • Yes, I understand the use of four tildes as a signature, and used that originally. However, I wished to indicate that I did have a name beyond an IP address, so I assumed a change that would still point to the IP but with different link text was valid. This is where I was apparently wrong, and I'm fine with admitting that. Especially as it's not really an issue anymore, as I have gone ahead and registered. Haplo3k 02:20, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment What happened to the vote for deletion template? --Randolph 16:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Looks ok to me. Hedley 16:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. This is not notable or encyclopedic. --Randolph 16:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete While I see conceed that it does appear to have a fair listenership, the bar of noteability for radio stations, like tv stations, is set fairly high. --InShaneee 16:31, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Request for Clarification. Is that bar set similarly high for games? If so, I am curious why Kingdom of Loathing itself ranks worthy of an article but its radio station doesn't rank worthy of a sub-article (since this user voted for deletion and not merge). Haplo3k 02:20, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • This would be based on Grue's claims that the station doesn't belong in Kingdom of Loathing, which I think it does. As for games, they are published material, but again games get deleted often if they aren't notable. In this case the MMORPG is just about above the line of notability, but 'just another internet radio station' isn't notable. The fact it is the only one attached to a MMORPG doesn't change that fact. Hedley 15:36, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • Right, I know your stance and I agree with it - add the article to Kingdom of Loathing. As I said, I was commenting on the fact that the above user voted for deletion, not merge, indicating the game is worthy of note but the station is not (in fact, I'm sure you'd find many people to argue that one of the reasons the game is notable is because of the station). Haplo3k 17:06, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment On Shoutcast.com, Radio KoL is currently ranked 323 by number of listeners. Even with their capacity filled the station could not enter the top 200. This removes any suggestion of 'popular radio station', because by wide standards, it isn't 'up there' with the notable stations. Hedley 15:43, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I was under the impression that sometimes things are notable because they are unique, no matter how popular they are. Radio KoL caters to a specific group of people, and is the first internet radio station to be created with that purpose. There's no way we could increase our listener numbers without losing our individuality (not to mention the fact that we couldn't afford it). The reason I, and others, think that Radio KoL is worthy of note (whether as article or subarticle) is because of this uniqueness. I completely understand that this is a slippery slope, that you don't want to be forced to include every internet radio station with 5 listeners that pops up claiming to be unique - but please note that I am arguing here against votes for deletion and completely support a merge. Haplo3k 17:06, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • The above was a note to counter 'keep' comments suggesting it is a popular radio station. Increasing the capacity would be irrelevant, the station listener number fluctuates inbetween 100 and 130 daily. As for uniqueness, everything that is unique does not warrant an article. Stations for online gaming (MMORPG goes under that on a wider scale) are common - a lot of clans have small stations, like Radio KoL. None are notable. Hedley 18:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Wow, 323. It is actually much higher than I expected. Certainly very high for a non-commercial station. Grue 18:49, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Most of those in front of you aren't commercial. Theres about 75 commercial stations in the top 300, i'd estimate. Hedley 15:29, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep for several reasons. 1) It's pretty notable 2) So that the individual show/DJ articles can have someplace to be merged to and 3) if merged into the main KoL article it would eventually be merged right back out when that gets too big. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:58, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
    • I'd like you to explain the notability more. How is it any more notable than any other random 150 listener internet station? The argument presented is that it is the only MMORPG station, which contradicts the argument for not merging that it isn't an MMORPG station directly. It doesn't seem to be any more notable than your typical clan station or IRC radio. As for the article getting too big, that doesn't seem to be the case. The individual DJ articles can easily go into Kingdom of Loathing under a Radio KoL section. Hedley 21:33, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge or keep, prefer "keep", based on size. Kappa 22:27, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. I voted to merge the DJs and content writers to this article, but after reading a few more days of postings and asking some friends with interest in MMORPGs or independent broadcasting, I still think RKoL is sufficiently pioneering to be worth keeping an article. In a year or two, there will be dozens of these, and most won't have notability worth WP inclusion, but RKoL seems to have begun something more significant (technologically and socially) than "your typical clan station" or radio-game-chat. Barno 14:30, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge or Keep -- If kept, it needs some work. For starters the specific DJ names should be removed, and some note of the station's interactive nature with respect to the game should be included. The inclusion of DJ names makes this sound less like a presentation of interesting information so much as self-congratulatory back patting. If that's the point, then e2 might be a better place for this. As a DJ on said radio station, I feel it's unique enough to warrant its own article, but only if it's written in a way that explains why it's unique (24/7 live staffing, its interactive nature, the back-and-forth with the game, etc.), but I don't really have an issue with merging it either. Chungkuo 15:38, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • As mentioned, user is biased for station as is a member. I'm looking forward to adding the two hundred or so stations more notable than KoL.Hedley 15:53, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • "More notable" in which sense: innovation, listener count, Google hits, or what? I agree with Chungkuo that the most noteworthy bits need to be added or expanded so the article establishes the notability that some voters don't see, but how many of those "two hundred or so" stations have done some substantially new thing like RKoL seems to have done? I write this as someone not associated with KoL or RKoL, and as someone who doesn't do any similar form of online gaming.
This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
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