Talk:Systems theory/Archive 3

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Archive 3

A Question - April 2007

In the Sociology section there is a reference to Raven (1995) and it is not listed in the Reference section. I am wondering if the document cited is : Raven, J. (1995). The New Wealth of Nations: A New Enquiry into the Nature and Origins of the Wealth of Nations and the Societal Learning Arrangements Needed for a Sustainable Society. Unionville, New York: Royal Fireworks Press; Sudbury, Suffolk: Bloomfield Books. (Chapters 1 [which summarises the whole book], 4 [“Some Observations on Money”], and 17 [Summary of Parts I to III and overview of Part IV: The Way Forward] are available at www.npsnet.com/cdd/nwn.htm ). Monica Figueroa (mofigueroaca@gmail.com)

I don't know, I will look into the reference. I anticipate noting other sociologists that I am more familliar with and I believe were more influential/foundational for the area of sociology/systems theory. Sorry for the slow response.--Kenneth M Burke 14:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I have found several literatures from Raven, John, who is an educator. My guess is that the reference is for the book that you have noted, but it seems that he had written some articles during the same year. I will keep investigating. If you find any additional information, do let me know.--Kenneth M Burke 01:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Content deleted from page that requires further research - May 2007

General Systems Theory as an objective of systemics - 4 may 2007

Many early systems theorists aimed at finding a general systems theory that could explain all systems in all fields of science. The term goes back to Bertalanffy's book titled General System Theory. von Bertalanffy's objective was to bring together under one heading the organismic science that he had observed in his work as a biologist. His desire was to use the word "system" to describe those principles which are common to systems in general. In GST, he writes: "...there exist models, principles, and laws that apply to generalized systems or their subclasses, irrespective of their particular kind, the nature of their component elements, and the relationships or "forces" between them. It seems legitimate to ask for a theory, not of systems of a more or less special kind, but of universal principles applying to systems in general." (GST p.32)

"Thus when von Bertalanffy spoke of Allgemeine Systemtheorie it was consistent with his view that he was proposing a new perspective, a new way of doing science. It was not directly consistent with an interpretation often put on "general system theory," to wit, that it is a (scientific) "theory of general systems." To criticize it as such is to shoot at straw men. Von Bertalanffy opened up something much broader and of much greater significance than a single theory (which, as we now know, can always be falsified and has usually an ephemeral existence): he created a new paradigm for the development of theories."

--Kenneth M Burke 02:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

It appears that every sentence of the first paragraph is either incorrect or misleading. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.244.42.5 (talk) 04:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

I seemed to agree with you on the current situation. But then I looked back in the articles history. I found that this deleted content (see the next text) made more sence five months ago. - Mdd 11:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

General Systems Theory as an objective of systemics - 1 january 2007

Many early systems theorists aimed at finding a general systems theory that could explain all systems in all fields of science. The term goes back to Bertalanffy's book titled General System Theory. von Bertalanffy's objective was to bring together under one heading the organismic science that he had observed in his work as a biologist. His desire was to use the word "system" to describe those principles which are common to systems in general. In GST, he writes: "...there exist models, principles, and laws that apply to generalized systems or their subclasses, irrespective of their particular kind, the nature of their component elements, and the relationships or "forces" between them. It seems legitimate to ask for a theory, not of systems of a more or less special kind, but of universal principles applying to systems in general." (GST p.32)

However, the translation of the German into the English general system theory has "wroth a certain amount of Havoc" writes Errvin Laszlo in the preface of von Bertalanffy's book Perspectives on General System Theory..

"The original concept of general system theory was Allgemeine Systemtheorie (or Lehre). Now "Theorie" (or Lehre) just as Wissenschaft (translated Scholarship), has a much broader meaning in German than the closest English words "theory" and "science." A Wissenschaft is any organized body of knowledge, including the Geisteswissenschaften (Scholarship of Arts), which would not be considered true sciences in English usage. And Theorie applies to any systematically presented set of concepts, whether they are empirical, axiomatic, or philosophical. (Lehre comes into the same category, but cannot be properly translated. "Teaching," the closest equivalent, sounds dogmatic and off the mark. However, doctrine can be a translation for it as well.)

"Thus when von Bertalanffy spoke of Allgemeine Systemtheorie it was consistent with his view that he was proposing a new perspective, a new way of doing science. It was not directly consistent with an interpretation often put on "general system theory," to wit, that it is a (scientific) "theory of general systems." To criticize it as such is to shoot at straw men. Von Bertalanffy opened up something much broader and of much greater significance than a single theory (which, as we now know, can always be falsified and has usually an ephemeral existence): he created a new paradigm for the development of theories."

Notes:

However as a first presentation of General Systems Theory, this text was also not very clear - Mdd 11:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I will clarify my clarification. I have already begun to collect sources that will be useful from top to bottom, from sociology to living systems. It seems that the biggest problem with the passage about GST as a general theory of systematics is that it seems to infer that the theory attempted a reductionism. That is evidently not true and should be clarified. --Kenneth M Burke 00:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I decided combining general systems as an objective of systemics with a coherent section including types of systems and systems inquiry would be most appropriate. I will need to collect some sources to accomplish it and want to add some better sources to the introduction and overview. May take a little time. If anyone has insights, do feel free to dialogue. --Kenneth M Burke 15:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I changed my mind, I think I'll keep those sections separate (but still not quite sure how to explain systemics. I also still have to check sources by Lazlo. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kenneth M Burke (talk • contribs) 23:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

More confusion - May 2007

Revert back to the last edit by fixaller, include the representative graphic, and EXPAND on that. The article at that stage was reviewed and corrected by many authorities from within the field. Improvement beyond that state is not to reinvent the article, and in the process failing to grasp the essential uniqueness of systems theory, but to elaborate on the skeleton provided. At least what is written will be correct. Granted, systems theory is different and very difficult to grasp, but it is necessary that this difference be appreciated and the difficulty overcome. 69.47.35.93 02:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You are certainly welcome to do what you like. Part of working on Wikipedia is understanding that your work might be altered by other users. Also, I must say that I think it is quite odd that you boast of going out of your way to have an outside review of the page while criticizing Wikipedia. Quite rude, I think. But, do as you like. I might make only a final suggestion that you at least make sure that contributions are more than just content cut and pasted from websites. --Kenneth M Burke 03:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that reverting the article is an acceptable option. - Mdd 03:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

(... The Following was intended for 69.47.35.93 and the somewhat out of nowhere, challenging comments:

You came out of nowhere saying the page would not be respected because of a photo. The article is not perfect, but I believe that it has been significantly improved. I have chosen to step aside, and evidently do not own the page. Either there are individuals genuinely interested in improving the article, or they are just here to throw their weight around on the discussion board. How easy it is to sit back and criticize. You are certainly more than welcome to provide any contributions that you might have in order to constructively problem-solve issues with the article. No disrespect intended, no harm done as I am done. --Kenneth M Burke 20:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)... )

I was also under the impresion that we had to do with a new editor and that was why I made these lay out corrections. But now I've the feeling we are talking to fixaller in both discussion items. Or is it that Fixaller (or what other usernames he used) is giving an answer for 214.4.238.61 - Mdd 03:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, 69.47.35.93 had responded for the other user 214.4.238.61. --Kenneth M Burke 03:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Then I think we should give 214.4.238.61 the time to respond. For that reason I made this a new talk item -- Mdd 03:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay.--Kenneth M Burke 03:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)