Talk:20 July plot

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Past tense

@Fratiibug: you are correct, however I wonder if present tense was intended. Note the following sentence giving the contrasting view is present tense. GA-RT-22 (talk) 01:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The included map

The map included in the infobox for this article seems a bit out of place to me, with no explanation on why the Wolf's Lair location is shown against the administrative borders of present-day Poland, considering this was undisputed German territory at the time. It looks like it was just copied over from the Wolf's Lair article. Maybe it could be changed to feature the map of Nazi Germany in 1944 instead? Quenched wick (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

@Quenched wick Usually, those infobox maps are made using a template that takes a GPS location and imposes it on a modern world map using some fancy code. Unfortunately, we don't have maps from every date in history in that template. So if we ever want time period specific maps, someone will actually have to make that image in an image editing software. Though I think a time period specific map could be a good addition, I also think the modern map is helpful, as I don't think most folks could picture where in Europe the wolf's lair was except with regards to a modern reference, i.e., modern Poland. I'm an avid fan of history and even I have to think about modern day borders to get a sense of where things were in history :) But I certainly wouldn't stop you from making a map of its place in 1944 borders. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

interesting, thanks. FalloutInfinity2 (talk) 14:40, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

Abstract title

The title for this article, '20 July plot', is almost meaningless. i.e. No year, nothing to indicate the purpose or intention of the plot, or who was the subject of the plot. Wikipedia:Article titles states: "The title indicates what the article is about" The current title fails in this respect. '20 July' could refer to any contemporary or historical event on that date. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

@Gwillhickers: Do you have a better suggestion? Operation Valkyrie? –CWenger (^ • @) 21:19, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

"Operation Valkyrie" by itself would be ambiguous to most readers. Since there were a fair number of plots or attempts to assassinate Hitler, the date should be specific.
How about  Hitler assassination plot of 20 July 1944?
-- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:54, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

I would probably support a move to that title. I actually thought '20 July plot' was a common name, but after doing a little research it seems to mostly be a Wikipedia creation. –CWenger (^ • @) 02:51, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Okay, since this is a straight forward, yet definitive, title, it seems there should be no contentions forthcoming. We should wait a day or so, and if there are no reasonable objections I'll make the move. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:54, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

I would strongly advise you to follow the procedure at WP:RSPM for higher visibility. –CWenger (^ • @) 21:25, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 7 May 2025

• Support 20 July plot → Hitler assassination plot of 20 July 1944 – Current article title is ambiguous. '20 July' could refer to any number of contemporary or historical events , per Wikipedia:Article titles states: "The title indicates what the article is about" Gwillhickers (talk) 03:23, 7 May 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 19:59, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

• Support. 20 July plot is not a common name, it's just something Wikipedia came up with since there doesn't seem to be a common name for the event. That being the case, we should have a more descriptive title, and the proposed one hits all the key points without being too wordy. –CWenger (^ • @) 16:56, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. It is very commonly known simply as the 20 July plot. Certainly not invented by Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:37, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
• Support The longer name provides a better anchor to the event.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 15:25, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per Necrothesp. There is clearly a common name, and it's 20 July plot. There are no other 20 July plots to speak of. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 15:45, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
• Comment Commonname to who? Sammy D III (talk) 11:08, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Agree with Sammy D III. Indeed, "common name" to whom?  I've never come across this name. Many average readers, esp young readers, are going to be left wondering. If this is a common name then why don't we see this phrase in any of the source titles in our  Bibliography?  A search for "20 July plot" at archive.org and Google reveals that this phrase by itself only occurs on Wikipedia. In any case, there's no reason why we should not use a definitive name that is clearly self explanatory to all readers. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 15:43, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

@Necrothesp, @Chicdat: Can you provide evidence that "20 July plot" is the common name? I only see it used occasionally in scholarly works, but less frequently than "July plot", "Operation Valkyrie plot", etc. –CWenger (^ • @) 20:52, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

• Support On that note, German sources lack a widely accepted common name. It's usually just referred to by some variation of "the assassination attempt on Hitler on 20 July 1944" for distinction. The closest thing to a proper name is the "Stauffenberg-Attentat" ("Stauffenberg assassination [attempt]"), but it's not used in any official capacity. A descriptive title with the full date and intention behind the plot would be for the best. Rubintyrann (talk) 22:12, 13 May 2025 (UTC)