Talk:Phoenix Program/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

RFC: With attribution, is Valentine's "The Phoenix Program" a reliable source?

Douglas Valentine's book The Phoenix Program is widely cited in reliable sources ([1][2][3], etc. etc. etc.), and is published by a professional publishing outfit, William Morrow and Company. Some users have expressed concern over the credibility of Valentine's work, given his inclusion of interviews with Elton Manzione, who possibly lied about his service as a Navy Seal, and because of a U.S. military officer's criticism of Valentine's work. With attribution (i.e. "Douglas Valentine states X") is The Phoenix Program a WP:RS? Jrtayloriv (talk) 04:08, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, is RS with attribution -- I think that because the work is notable, widely cited in other RS (indicating that the people citing it believe it to be accurate), and professionally published that it can be used as an RS with attribution. I do believe that Elton Manzione is dubious, but I don't feel that his inclusion implies that the entire book is inaccurate. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 04:08, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm just going to restate the rebuttals so far.The consensus on this forum has been No.

• Per Timeshifter "It does not name the original source (as in who witnessed it). So I don't think it should be in the article."
• Per ZHurlihee " Valentine’s book, which is the primary source for nearly all of the critical material, has some grievous issues with both its factual accuracy as well as the individuals he interviewed."
• Per 173.200.137.74 "Passing a witness of as a US Navy seal and then claiming the Navy destroyed or altered his personnel file when confronted with the evidence (both documentary and first person corroboration) speaks of fraud to me."
• I wrote RE. Elton Manzione[4] was not a SEAL and was represented as such by Douglas Valentine. Valentine has been known to invent quotes or take them out of context. Like: "The implication or latent threat of force alone was sufficient to insure that the people would comply" quoted here as well. Attributed to William Colby, meaning that the USA was using threats and intimidation to bully the vietnamese. Colby’s actual quote was: "the implication or latent threat of force alone was sufficient to insure that the people would comply with Communist demands." Meaning that the communists were using threats and intimidation to bully the vietnamese." That was an example of him misattributing a quote to someone who said the exact opposite and (at best) relying on a source that was an obvious liar. That he has been cited elsewhere doesn't confirm his reliability, Jayson Blair was widely cited. (which is why I asked to see the praise you said existed) Indeed, what brought me to this page was seeing a reference to Valentine pop up in the edit summary and knowing about the fake SEAL/misattributing quotes history, as well as the other lies factual inaccuracies CDR Fred Brown caught him in. V7-sport (talk) 04:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Timeshifter was referring to a particular statement from Valentine's work, not to the book as a whole; and I have replied to this above, explaining why this is not a cause for concern. Zhurlihee, the IP, and V7-sport (who form the "consensus" that V7-sport speaks of) have made a few statements about the credibility (which I also agree is questionable, at best) of one of the people that Valentine interviewed (Elton Manzione) and repeatedly implied that this means that the entire work is inaccurate (in spite of the fact that numerous reliable sources, including scholarly sources, feel that it is accurate enough to cite in their own works). Zhurlihee has cited a U.S. military officer who has criticized Valentine's work, and V7-sport has provided the type of low-quality original research you see above regarding something completely unrelated to the work in question. There is no "consensus" here, other than among an IP, a disruptive U.S. foreign policy edit warrior, and a person who has been trying to rewrite this article using nothing but military sources. I'd ask that people not be taken in by the rhetoric and carefully analyze the "evidence" that V7-sport is providing. I think you'll find that the work is easily reliable enough to be cited with attribution for factual assertions. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 04:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about that -- I had drafted a response to Timeshifter's comment, and thought I had posted it. I hadn't so I have stricken that statement above -- apologies. Basically, all I was going to say was that Valentine is a secondary source. He is basing his statements off of research from primary sources, such as documents, interviews, etc. His statement regarding forms of torture used is a synthesis of things that he has gathered from multiple primary sources. Valentine was not claiming that one person said this, but was rather making a statement that he felt was supported by his research. Thus, I feel that it is fine to include with attribution to Valentine. Anyhow, sorry about the mixup. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 04:42, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Timeshifter stated, RE. the material you want to put in: "I don't think it should be in the article". If you find a source that the author used "questionable, at best" that reflects poorly on the credibility of the author as well. The former "U.S. military officer" (as if that hurt his credibility) outlined glaring inaccuracies in his work and I have shown that he took a quote, out of context to the point of completely inverting it's meaning and used that as a basis of a speech he used. You characterizing people who you disagree with as "disruptive U.S. foreign policy edit warrior" is uncivil and stating that someone who was in the military is a "military source" is inaccurate.V7-sport (talk) 04:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

My characterization of you (not "people who disagree with me") was completely accurate, as a quick glance at your edit history and block log will affirm. Anyhow, the reason I filed this RFC was to avoid wasting further time with you, so I'll just wait for other people to comment. My favorite part of Wikipedia is not the talk pages -- I've got other work I'd rather be doing. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Your characterization of me is a WP:uncivil And a WP:personal attack and no, it isn't accurate. V7-sport (talk) 05:08, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

(unindent) Timeshifter can speak for him/herself, but V7-sport's characterization of Timeshifter's views and V7's assertion that there is a consensus is deeply misleading. For now, here are some of Timeshifter's comments about Valentine, from which I conclude Timeshifter's view is Yes, is RS with attribution:

I have yet to find anything seriously fraudulent about Douglas Valentine. Mistakes, yes, fraudulent, no. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, where are the links? Finally, even if true, it sounds like a mistake, not fraud. Please don't try a Swiftboating campaign on Wikipedia against Douglas Valentine. Stick to the facts. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:06, 17 June 2011 (UTC) Valentine quoted the whole sentence in his book. See here. In the book he says that the US Phoenix program was mimicking the insurgency. So maybe Valentine conflated the two sentences in his mind? --Timeshifter (talk) 15:14, 16 June 2011 (UTC) Valentine did not "rely" on one bad source. He had many sources. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:40, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

But if his writings are to be used as a reference, then I suggest referencing them directly... --Timeshifter (talk) 13:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Teeparty (talk) 07:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, is RS with attribution. I see nothing that makes this author an unreliable source. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:49, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
• Yes, is RS with attribution: Valentine's work is widely cited in academic literature.

1. E.g., Google Scholar lists 95 scholarly works that mention Valentine and The Phoenix Program, and 71 works that cite his book. For example:
   1. Gary Hess, "The Unending Debate: Historians and the Vietnam War," Diplomatic History, Volume 18, Issue 2, pages 239–264, April 1994.
   2. Lt. Col. Ken Tovo (USA), "From the Ashes of the Phoenix: Lessons for Contemporary Counterinsurgency Operations," Strategy Research Project submitted as part of Master of Strategic Studies Degree, U.S. Army War College, 18 March 2005. [5]
2. Valentine is the author of four non-fiction books.[6]
3. Valentine himself continues to analyze Phoenix, we might want to include his more recent work, e.g. "The Dangerous World of Indefinite Detentions: Vietnam to Abu Ghraib," 37 Case W. Res. J. Int'l Law 449 (2005-2006)

In short, it clearly meets the WP criteria for RS. Teeparty (talk) 07:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Teeparty -- I agree with you in many respects, but I would like to point out a few things:

1. While Tovo (a U.S. military officer) does cite Valentine in many places, he is also critical of certain parts of Valentine's work. Tovo seems to think that much of The Phoenix Program is valid, and often cites it as a reference (rather than merely citing it to demonstrate something that he feels Valentine got wrong). However, there are several cases where he is saying things along the lines of "Valentine said this, but Moyar/Andrade/etc. question these claims". I just wanted to clear this up so that people don't get the idea that Tovo totally accepts Valentine's findings. He accepts many of them, but also rejects other parts. (On a side note: I've got no problem discussing the controversy over some of Valentine's claims, but don't feel that it should be purged from the article because there is controversy over it)
2. The number of books an author has published does not necessarily indicate anything about the reliability of one of their other works, so I'm not sure what you were getting at when you mentioned that Valentine has published 4 books. Could you clarify what you were trying to say there?

Anyhow, overall I agree with you regarding the (rather obvious) reliability of Valentine, but I just wanted to clarify that bit about Tovo for people who might not feel like digging through it right now. Also, feel free to just go ahead and add any pertinent information from places like your Case W. Res. J. Int'l Law source. Just make sure that you write it in a neutral tone, attribute opinions, and don't include your own thoughts on the subject along with the information from the source. Thanks. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 07:34, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

P.S. -- Also, would you mind removing the bold text from your statement regarding what you think TimeShifter would say, so that people do not get the mistaken impression that it is another "!vote". It's not a big deal, but it would just be helpful for people glancing over the page. Thanks. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 07:42, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

• No - unless the material can be independently sourced, not merely duplicated, by another source. His use of fraudulent sources, knowingly so, should be enough to exclude this as a source from the article. ZHurlihee (talk) 13:51, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

NO, calling someone a seal when they werent in the seals is a serious screw up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.122.8 (talk) 01:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, with attribution. It is a published book by a well known author, and oft-cited (as mentioned above); however, due to worries about the qualifications of the author it may be best to use another source for controversial remarks. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation page for other Phoenix programs

Maybe rename this page so we can have a disambiguation page referring to other Phoenix programs, eg DARPA Phoenix Program ? - Rod57 (talk) 10:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Noam Chomsky

Just one question about including a statement from Chomsky's book in this article: What makes Chomsky a reputable source of information on when Phoenix was terminated? He has absolutely no credentials whatever in this respect. He does, however, have radical points of view and is a well-known political activist. Are these his credentials as a source on Phoenix? Is this good enough at Wikipedia? FoundersFan (talk) 19:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Photograph

The decapitation photograph needs to be properly sourced. I remember seeing this photo run in our local underground newspaper, and wondering where it came from. In the present instance, there's no indication that any of the soldiers in the photograph have anything to do with the Phoenix program, and indeed, since the point of Phoenix was infiltration, it's unlikely uniformed soldiers had much to do with it. What the photo really shows is an atrocity, and that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Phoenix program. It should be either properly sourced, or it should be deleted. Theonemacduff (talk) 19:58, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Article is the objective truth!

"We don't need to cite any sources for the incredibly biased claims in the lede; read the rest of the article for justification."

Here's what it says:

• "Between 1968 and 1972, Phoenix "neutralized" 81,740 people suspected of NLF membership, of whom 26,369 were killed. Although many of these were innocent civilians, a significant number of NLF were killed, and between 1969 and 1971 the program was quite successful in destroying NLF infrastructure in many important areas.

That doesn't justify the claim that civilians were the sole, deliberate targets of the operation. Far from it. If you want to make those claims in the lede, you can't say that no sources are needed because it is the lede.

You can't understand why anyone would think this article is biased? It just doesn't make any sense? WP:RS says that no editorials are reliable for statements of fact. I was told on the Cold War talk page that Noam Chomsky is a WP:FRINGE source, never to be used in articles unrelated to him. Counterpunch is a neo-Nazi blog. Polemical sources like John Pilger should never be used in articles like this. Why are there a mountain of links to radical left-wing sites in external links? Could it be that this page was edited mostly by radical leftists who weren't alive at the time? Could it be that they are biased? Could their bias possibly show? Why does the article use mocking quotation marks around the word communist (as in "communist" plans repeatedly emphasized attacking the government’s pacification program and specifically targeted Phoenix officials)? Were the North Vietnamese communist? Is that right-wing propaganda? Evidence is needed to assert that the targets of the program were the "civilian infrastructure" of the Viet Cong. It's absurd to cite polemical pseudo-scholars. Any expert on the subject could tell you this entire article is a ludicrous joke. I need to talk and explain why sources are needed and polemics aren't allowed? You can't just use random pictures, either; is that a picture of the phoenix progam? Do you know? Do you care?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, TheTimesAreAChanging. I removed your "POV" tag because you placed it without explaining on this Talk page what content you feel is in violation, and why. You ask, "You can't understand why anyone would think this article is biased?" I never indicated anything one way or another about level of understanding. You placed a tag without the required justification on the article Talk page. Any Wikipedia editor should be able to immediately determine why such a tag was inserted.

As for the appropriateness of sources to be cited in support of assertion of fact, or listed under External Links, I do know it's a fact that every scholar is "Fringe" or "Polemical" if that source in any way contradicts any other source -- so I have no doubt someone, somewhere, told you that ___(insert any source here)___ is to never be used. In reality, most sources can be used on Wikipedia under specific circumstances, and WP:RSN is the place to go for a determination as to if, when and where any particular source may be suitable.

You lost me with the first quote in your comment. What is its source? Xenophrenic (talk) 23:47, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

The quote is from this article! The one you told me to read, as if I had not. How familiar are you with this page? Why do you refuse to address the issues I have raised, pretending to be "lost" by the quote I mentioned? If you think any random website is a WP:RS, you're dead wrong. Technically, no editorials or political magazines are supposed to be used for statements of fact. There are also lots of unsourced claims in this article. You're the one playing games here; you don't need to give a detailed explanation for tags on the TP. It's up to you to explain why the tags aren't needed; to any sane person, it should be obvious why I want them.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:19, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

TheTimesAreAChanging -- Please try to be more civil and assume good faith -- i.e. try to stick away from comments like "You're the one playing games here" and "to any sane person, it should be obvious why I want them", and focus on article content. Also, Xenophrenic is correct that you do need add explanations for tags you place on the articles -- it is not obvious why you want them there, and it is Wikipedia policy that you explain your reasons for adding them. That said, Noam Chomsky is certainly a reliable source, regardless of what you were told at Cold War. He is a world-renowned scholar with dozens of widely published books and essays on U.S. foreign policy and military history. You might not agree with his views, or like him, but he certainly satisfies the criteria for WP:RS. As far as the quote in question, I don't understand what your issue is with it. Could you explain why you have a problem with mentioning that civilians were also killed (which is clearly backed up by several of the sources)? -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:36, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Is what I say that hard to understand? I think the quote is just fine! Of course civilians were killed; it was a war. My point was that it is inaccurate to claim that the target of the Phoenix Program was "the civilian infrastructure of the Viet Cong." I asked for this claim to be cited; Xenophrenic said that citations were not needed in the lede and that the rest of the article provides ample evidence. Clearly, at least some quotes from the article (such as the one I mentioned) and some sources don't seem to agree that the program deliberately sought civilians as the primary target. I did explain my reasons for the tags, just not on the TP. Have you read the WP:RS guidelines? Sure, Chomsky can be cited for his opinion and The Weekly Standard and The Nation and National Review can be cited for their opinions; but they shouldn't be used for statements of fact.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

It would be a reasonable assumption that after 17,000+ edits to Wikipedia, I have probably read WP:RS, wouldn't you say? Your views on Chomsky and WP:RS are simply not correct. If we include one of Chomsky's opinions we must attribute it to him. If we include a historical fact from one of his books, we use it just like we use facts from other books -- i.e. without attribution (unless there is a claim that contradicts it -- then we attribute both claims in the article).

As far as claims that civilians were targetted deliberately see [7][8], although this is pretty clear from a reading of some of the other sources already in the article as well. If you feel the need to add these sources (both of which are from university presses) to that statement, by all means go ahead. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 02:19, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, for historical facts Chomsky can be used, and you'll notice that he isn't very frequently. I'm only repeating what a more senior editor told me; I would suggest that you ask someone for clarification. I'll tell you the editors name, if you want. Regardless, I'm pleased to get somewhere with you, as I couldn't with Xenophrenic. Thank you for providing sources. Do these sources support the claim that civilians were the primary targets? If so, then I would support adding them.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:43, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

The sources above claim that civilians were deliberately targeted. As far as being the primary targets [9][10][11] -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 03:41, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Can you please add those to the lede when you get the chance?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:43, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure -- I'll do so some time tonight. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 03:51, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

"We don't need to cite any sources for the incredibly biased claims in the lede; read the rest of the article for justification." --TheTimesTheyAreAChanging

The quote is from this article! --TheTimesTheyAreAChanging

Sorry, but I still do not see that quote anywhere in this article. In fact, doing a word search for: "read the rest" comes up empty, and doesn't appear to pertain to the Phoenix Program anyway. Perhaps you are mistaken? As for not getting anywhere with Xenophrenic, you only needed to first explain what your concern was (instead of merely placing an unexplained tag), as you just did when you were again asked to do so by Jrtayloriv. Once you did that, things moved forward nicely; wouldn't you agree? Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 06:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

It appears as though you completely misunderstood everything I wrote.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Use of the term Insurgency

Obviously this is a fairly new term,probably arrived since the Iraq war in conventional use.To be insurgents you need to be fighting against the recognised government of a country. South Vietnam was not recognised by the UN at all. Vietnam was divided in the 1954 Geneva accords on a temp basis until 1956 when elections should have been held. The Americans and Diem did not want elections held as Ho Chi Minh would have won them so they set up the South Vietnam state. The people fighting against that were Vietnamese so they were not insurgents against any recognised government,it was a civil war that had been going on since the end of WW2.Please provide you thoughts or evidence that states otherwiseZrdragon12 (talk) 19:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Just add this piece on the Geneva accords:

The Geneva Agreements, which were issued on July 21, 1954,[11] carefully worded the division of northern and southern Vietnam as a "provisional military demarcation line",[12] "on either side of which the forces of the two parties shall be regrouped after their withdrawal".[12] To specifically put aside any notion that it was a partition, they further stated, in the Final Declaration, Article 6: "The Conference recognizes that the essential purpose of the agreement relating to Vietnam is to settle military questions with a view to ending hostilities and that the military demarcation line is provisional and should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary"..Zrdragon12 (talk) 19:41, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority (for example, an authority recognized as such by the United Nations) when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognized as belligerents. Zrdragon12 (talk) 20:24, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Recent edits

I've reverted a number of recent edits. Some of the edits I reverted were made with the following justifications:

• You don't repeat cited material in external links or further reading.

Actually, I do -- in some cases, so that is half-right. I try not to repeat cited material in external links. However, per WP:FURTHER, I will present relevant sources under the Further Reading section, if the Reference section has grown too large to serve as a general reading list.

• Dead link.

Links may come and go, but information doesn't; one just needs to put in a little extra effort to find a suitable replacement link in most cases.

• This copyright violation of a propaganda tract which is largely unrelated to the Phoneix Program is not an appropriate external link. If it were, every external link about the Vietnam war in existence would be acceptable.

While it may not be related to the "Phoneix Program", it is largely related to the "Phoenix Program", with 30 references to it, a section devoted to it, as well as coverage of directly related programs. As for the "copyright violation" charge, the site had full rights to make the work available, but just so we don't have to argue about it, I've replaced the link with one directly to the author's site.

• The source is clearly wrong and should be removed then. If only a third were killed, then nearly all of them did not die.

If you feel a cited source is "clearly wrong", you should raise your concern at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. I've rechecked that source, and the present article wording accurately conveys that information. You appear to be confusing the number of civilians killed by the Phoenix Program (which equates to about a third of the total "neutralized") with the number of civilians captured through the Phoenix Program who were killed. Hopefully that helps. Xenophrenic (talk) 02:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

22 references are "too many", so you need to duplicate some in Further Reading? By what process did you evaluate which sources to repeat?

Per WP:ELNO, external links are sources that would be added to the article if it were featured--which presumably doesn't include Youtube videos. In fact, "Infocollective"'s summary of Valentine's book doesn't qualify, either.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:15, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

There is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites, from WP:EL, but I'm not arguing to keep that video snippet in our article (I actually thought I had left it out during this last edit). I recognize it from a larger segment of video, and I may try to track down a better (and more informative) source for it. The Info Collective doesn't appear to be a summary to me, although that's how it is described. Looks more like content notes for someone writing a paper or thesis. Doesn't add much to our article, but might be useful for article development. By the way, I didn't use a process to "evaluate which sources to repeat", in fact I didn't even check to see if they were cited in the article body. I added entries to Further Reading I felt would be informative to the reader. Xenophrenic (talk) 04:12, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening para confusion

The opening para says that "Few of the prisoners survived—most of them were tortured to death, and those that survived the torture sessions were generally killed afterwards" but then says later "By 1972, Phoenix operatives had "neutralized" 81,740 suspected NLF operatives, informants and supporters, of whom 26,369 were killed." 26,369/81,740 is 32% killed, so the earlier quote seems to be a gross exaggeration. Mztourist (talk) 15:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

IP 88.104.212.150 deleting solid information

This user has been removing this information cited in Vietnam and America: A Documented History:

"Intelligence gathered during interrogation was often used to direct "search and destroy " missions aimed at wiping out whole villages or groups of villages. In some areas where the population was believed to support the NLF strongly, entire provinces were subjected to campaigns of destruction and mass killing."

and changing it to this:

"Intelligence derived from PIC interrogations was often used to carry out "search and destroy" missions aimed at finding the enemy and destroying them."

My version is the following:

"Intelligence derived from PIC interrogations was often used to carry out "search and destroy" missions aimed at wiping out whole villages or groups of villages. In some areas where the population was suspected of having strong VC sympathies, entire provinces were subjected to indiscriminate bombing raids and mass killing."

So I'm just requesting for other users to vote on which version is more in line with the source. Thanks.--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 19:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

IP 88.104.212.150 also seems to believe that he is the decider of what is "dubious" or "controversial". He doesn't like what it says, so therefore, it is "dubious".--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 21:38, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

IP 88.104.212.150's reason for the deletion is the following:

"It is unacceptable to claim as fact that US tactics were "mass killing"

It is not his place to decide what is or isn't acceptable.--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 23:46, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this source precisely says US tactics were "mass killing". It needs to be clarified. Any intentional mass killing would have been by unauthorized U.S. troops or by the RVN forces (also possibly rogue). Of course, one's definition of "mass killing" probably varies.

I find this claim that mass killings in Vietnam were not authorised to be deeply dubious. I have seen multiple American military planners, talking about how to increase the amount of casualties they caused in assassination programs and bombing campaigns. Remember that approximately 10% of the population of Vietnam was killed during this conflict.--Senor Freebie (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

That part of the source was written by Seymour Hersh. He's a notable author, but not one who's trusted by everyone. In fact, I wouldn't believe a word he says. It's not that he's always wrong, but that I can't know that he's giving the full story.

As such, I think it would be fine (assuming you can accurately explain how you interpret the source) as long as this article says within the text that it's Hersh making these claims. Caveat emptor.

He uses the phrase "search and destroy" but I don't know who he's quoting. I don't think we can use those words if we don't understand the source or the context. There's nothing illegal about search and destroy when it's within the laws of war and rules of engagement. Context matters.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 01:26, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Hersh isn't the only one reporting this though. Vietnam War reporter Jonathon Schell reported it also:

"In The Military Half, legendary Vietnam War reporter for The New Yorker Jonathan Schell details the devastating effects of American bombings and ground operations on the provinces of Quang Ngai and Quang Tin in South Vietnam. Schell provides first-hand accounts of the bombing runs and how they contributed to the destruction of the two provinces, giving a new generation of Americans an inside look at why the Vietnam War, years after its conclusion, is still a hot topic of debate in our country."

--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 04:51, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

As for the "mass killing" thing, I might be able to find an estimated number of people killed. Although, I would think that wiping out whole villages and entire provinces would qualify as mass killing. --Boba Fett TBH (talk) 05:08, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Mass killing usually refers to mass deliberate killing of civilians so estimated number people of killed(combatant and civilian) is not going back up your claim. Schell's claim also doesn't imply or back up that the deliberate aim of search and destroy was "mass killing" and to subject entire provinces to indiscriminate bombing. Regardless my definition was well sourced so how do you justify removing it? 88.104.212.150 (talk) 13:40, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

That's it right there: the word "deliberate."

Plus, we also need to sort through agit-prop, which some, like Hersh are too close to. That's why we need to attribute various claims in the body of the text.

It seems (although it's hard to tell here) that Jonathan Schell is only talking about the effects. The people who claim to care about the Phoenix Program are supposed to be concerned about the intent. If that's true here, then we should distinguish between intentional and collateral, as well as who was doing it. That last part is another of the problems here in that the U.S. is being blamed for things that South Vietnamese forces may have been doing.

Keep in mind that this was a war (as like now) where the critics made it fully acceptable for civilians to mingle with combatants.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

You are setting an arbitrary bar impossibly high. When you bomb a village, the intent could not be any clearer, especially when then the reason for the bombing has been established, which was villagers suspected sympathies for the VC. If we were talking about an "official enemy" this wouldn't be complicated for anybody.--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 18:03, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I really don't think its that high a bar and what would be defined as a mass killing should be pretty clear(ie deliberate targeting of lots of civilians). Not heavy collateral or even "indiscriminate bombing". I personally don't think most of this "search and destroy" stuff should be here especially in the manner you have written. A mention that Phoenix intel was used to carry out "Search and Destroy" missions is definitely enough. The quotes below the paragraph are certainly out of scope and not needed. Regardless since this is a controversial debated topic I think attribution would be needed for the claims if they are kept. Ie for Hersh's claim about "mass killings", "wiping out villages" and "indiscriminate bombing" and Schell's claim about "70% of buildings". I be would OK with a version with attribution. It does however still seem dishonest to not talk about what they are targeting in search and destroy mission ie the Viet Cong which my sources and plenty of others do mention. I don't see why you have a problem with mentioning that "search and destroy" mission were aimed at destroying the Viet Cong by killing them. What is wrong with that? 88.104.213.240 (talk) 18:24, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll say, "according to reports by so and so". And the sources referring to Phoenix doesn't say it was "aimed at wiping out Viet Cong" though. It says "whole villages" and "entire provinces" where the population was believed to support the VC strongly.--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 18:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Thats good enough for me. I still disagree with most the line but a compromise will do. And regarding "Search and Destroy" I think its fairly clear that they were used to kill Viet Cong even if your sources describe it differently. I read the relevent sections in Schell's book and it is pretty clear that they are trying to kill Viet cong even it they destroy an entire village because VC fire from it which pretty much the "indiscriminate bombing", "whole villages", "entire provinces", "villagers suspected sympathies for the VC" etc you are referring to. Regardless attribution will do. 88.104.213.240 (talk) 18:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The wording still does not fit to how Schell describes the mission in his book. The 2nd line also needs to attributed.88.104.213.240 (talk) 18:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Out of interest who claims the operation resulted in mass killings and what does he specifically mean? 88.104.213.240 (talk) 19:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

This is not complicated. When you wipe out a village suspected of "communist sympathies", the occupants are not collateral damage. By the standard you are advocating, the Hitler page would have to be cleansed as well.--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 19:41, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Well we still disagree but who exactly said "mass killing"? Was it Seymour Hersh? 88.104.213.240 (talk) 19:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

You just engaged in a revert war and still did not provide a source to support your claim. You also violated our agreement here on the talk page by continuing to misrepresent the provided source with "commentary" and POV.--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 20:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Well I completely disagree that I misrepresented anything with "commentary and POV". The agreement was too have attribution with regards to the claims of "mass killing" etc. I did not remove any of that. I could provide page number but is is fairly obvious that when Schell talks about Search and Destroy that US soldiers are trying to eradicate the VC. How is this not clear? Do you not know where I am coming from? Regardless I have changed more in line with your view. Is this fine? And also no need for the slanderous reference to Hitler. Regards. 88.104.213.240 (talk) 20:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Your commentary does not reflect what the source says. We need intervention on this.--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 20:54, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

You also removed this entire part:

"In some areas where the population was suspected of strong VC sympathies, entire provinces were subjected to indiscriminate bombing raids and mass killing."--Boba Fett TBH (talk) 21:06, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Current revision is fine. 88.104.209.126 (talk) 12:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

The right spelling

In different places of this article, the name of a witness is reported both as "K. Milton Osborne" and "K. Milton Osborn".

What's the right spelling?

--Filippof (talk) 15:04, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

"War crimes"

Senor Freebie you must follow WP:BRD rather than edit warring with me as you have done here: [12] and here: [13]. As I said here: [14] you don't put refs in the lede. You don't get to decide that there were US war crimes, you need to present the relevant information from your refs in the appropriate section, if multiple WP:RS shows that war crimes occurred, then your statement can go in the lede. In relation to my deletion here: [15] which you also reverted here: [16], I deleted this because I didn't regard it as being from an RS, in addition it repeated an account already contained under the Torture section. Mztourist (talk) 10:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

WP:BRD does not apply in this instance and it is an abuse of that policy to refer to it.

Mztourist stated that they had a problem with my edit stating that widespread war crimes occurred as a part of the Phoenix Program, and I corrected that problem that they complained about. Then they deleted the subsequent edit, implying that any further reverting of that would be edit warring. Which is a false claim. If they have a problem with the sources that I provided, after they asked for them they need to make their case here. In detail.--Senor Freebie (talk) 10:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

WP:BRD always applies. I have set out my comments above already and await your response. Mztourist (talk) 11:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a very strange statement to make, when I outlined very clearly why it does not. Why did you not address my specific point as to why it doesn't apply here?--Senor Freebie (talk) 06:06, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

What is strange about it? And why don't you think WP:BRD applies to you? Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

This has been explained to you. Do not pretend that it hasn't.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

As you haven't responded to my comments above

Your comments are less than 2 hours apart. It is utterly unreasonable to expect a response from someone within 2 hours on this platform.--Senor Freebie (talk) 06:06, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

You posted this new thread after I had posted my comments and you also found time to come and WP:Casting aspersions on my Talk Page. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

No I did not. Stop making statements that have no basis in fact.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I have looked at the sources you provided as follows:

• The New York Time Story covers the Thanh Phong incident which is already addressed on Bob Kerrey.

If the editors at that article think that this is a reasonable source for a BLP it's good enough for here.

Its perfectly fine for what it says, but it doesn't say a war crime occurred. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Why would you make a statement like that, did you read the article? The article discusses the fact that the massacre of women and children at Thanh Phong was a war crime:

Gary Solis, a war-crimes expert at the United States Military Academy at West Point who wrote a book on Son Thang, says that atrocities were more common in Vietnam than we knew. While there were 122 convictions for war crimes in Vietnam, he says, "In my opinion, war crimes occurred that were never reported."

Did Kerrey and his men commit crimes of war, or were they just applying the basic rules of a dirty war as best they understood them? "Let the other people judge whether or not what I did was militarily allowable or morally ethical or inside the rules of war," Kerrey says. "Let them figure that out. I mean, I can make a case that it was."

Why would you make a claim that it didn't?--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

It is unclear if any war crime occurred.

This is a very interesting statement. Can you expand on how you think massacring unarmed children is not a war crime?

The story makes it very clear that there are conflicting accounts of what occurred. Kerrey wasn't reprimanded or prosecuted for any crime. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

So?--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I also don’t see where it states in the story that this was part of the Phoenix Program.

That's established in other sources.

What other sources? Identify them specifically. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

The other sources which I posted that support the fact that the Phoenix Program involved widespread war crimes. The sources that you have removed from the article, presumably because you have read them. Even though you are making statements that make it clear that you either have not, have not comprehended them, or are being dishonest about their content.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

• If you look above on this page Douglas Valentine has his own POV and its debatable whether or not his two books which you present are RS, but his views are already presented on the page.

Just because you don't like the factual view that massacring unarmed civilians is a war crime doesn't mean it's not a valid POV for the lede of the article.

The lede needs to be a balanced summary of information presented in the body of the page, what you have written is not supported by multiple RS. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Just because you don't like these facts and the sources I presented doesn't meant it's not "RS".--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

• I can’t access this source [17] other than the summary, but don’t see that it proves US war crimes.

Have you tried a library?

They're locked down. Have you tried finding a better source that actually supports what you're saying? Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Just because you don't have the time to go to a library doesn't mean that it's a bad source. Please try not to cast aspersions on material you refuse to access but are more than happy to delete form the article.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

• The LA Times story also covers the Thanh Phong incident, but Alexander Cockburn has his own strong POV

Just because you don't like POV's doesn't mean that you get to delete them from articles when they're backed up by many sources. That you also don't like.

Again you need to provide multiple WP:RS, not problematic POV pieces. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Just because you don't like POV's doesn't mean that you get to delete them from articles when they're backed up by many sources.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

the article is riddled with inaccuracies such as “It’s pretty clear that Kerrey’s raid was part of the CIA’s Phoenix program (as was My Lai, where “Task Force Barker” killed 504 men, women and children the preceding year).” My Lai was not part of the Phoenix Program, it occurred during Operation Muscatine and so its reliability is questionable.

Got a source that contradicts them? Or do you just not like the implication?

You can look at My Lai Massacre and Operation Muscatine and their underlying sources, none of them will support the statement that My Lai was part of the Phoenix Program. Implication is very much what you are relying on here. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are not RS. Especially Wikipedia articles that you appear to take a personal interest in editing. Especially considering that you have repeatedly deleted sources referring to the Phoeonix Program and My Lai in the same breath from this artlcle. Please deal with source material that you are willing to present for argument.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

To summarise Senor Freebie if you want to say that war crimes occurred you need to either present RS

Done. Repeatedly.

No they don't. You have presented one RS about Thanh Phong which isn't clear that it was part of Phoenix and 3 POV sources of questionable reliability. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a misrepresentation of what I presented.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

of war crimes prosecutions for US actions under the Phoenix Program

This is not the bar that is required to state that something is a war crime.

Uh, yes it is. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Please try to present actual arguments.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

or provide a lot more RS of incidents that are clearly war crimes committed by US forces.

You want more than 5 sources for one claim?

Yes, multiple RS of war crimes, which you haven't provided despite repeatedly claiming you have. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a completely inaccurate statement as I have had to address repeatedly above.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

What you have provided so far certainly isn't well-sourced

Just because you don't like the POV doesn't mean it's not well sourced.

As advised above, its not well sourced, presumably because RS that support your POV don't exist. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a completely inaccurate statement as I have had to address repeatedly above.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

and nor does it support you adding a definitive statement that "The program lead to widespread war crimes by American forces" . Mztourist (talk) 12:51, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Except that the sources support that statement.--Senor Freebie (talk) 06:06, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

As I have shown above, they don't. Your statement has not been on the page previously, presumably because it is not backed by multiple RS. You can take this to DR or RFC if you wish, but in accordance with WP:BRD (which is mandatory) you should self-revert your changes now until the issue is resolved. Mztourist (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

The issue you had with the previous edit is resolved. You have not made any reasonable claims, nor even apparently bothered to actually access the sources I presented. It seems to me that you are not intent on editing this article from a neutral perspective and are just trying to strong arm it to a version that you agree with.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Mztourist that the sources provided by Senor Freebie are sub-par and that the focus should be on building up the entire article with academic sources rather than inserting opinion commentary into the lede without consensus. For the record, WP:BRD always applies.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:37, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

I suggest that any other editors Google the two usernames above. They frequently edit the same articles and agree with each other on what I posit are subjective positions. I think that if they are not sockpuppets of each other, they are at the very least allies, and while the user; timesareachanging isn't presenting any new arguments or evidence they should be disregarded.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1037#User:Senor_Freebie_won't_follow_WP:BRD_and_consensus_and_is_making_false_accusations Mztourist (talk) 06:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC) Senor Freebie was indefinitely blocked on 27 May 2020. Mztourist (talk) 06:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

28 June 2020

By this diff: [18] I reverted various changes to the page which ComicsAreJustAllRight made with the comment "rvt to last good version. Please don't engage in political debate on this page". Firstly proper citing of a webpage is unarguable. Gary Kulik in his book War Stories calls into question the claims regarding war crimes during the Phoenix Program, particularly those made by K. Barton Osborne (who is later incorrectly referred to as K. Milton Osborn). In accordance with WP:WEIGHT if Osborne's claims are presented then contradictory RS information such as that of Kulik should also be presented. We don't need to repeat Osborne's story about a dowel being inserted in a detainee's ear. Nick Turse is the source claiming that war crimes were common and so it is correct to make this clear. We don't list in the See Also section links that are already contained in the body of the page.Mztourist (talk) 03:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

12 July 2020

By this diff: [19] I have reverted the 3 July edits by IP 98.28.42.70 who stated "removed outlier opinion unsupported by any other sources" and "removed unsubstantiated claims unsupported by bulk of literature". Gary Kulik is a WP:RS, if you have a problem with the source take it to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for a review. In relation to the comments that Kulik's claims are "unsupported by bulk of literature" no justification is given for this assertion. In fact the existing sources on the page are all rather biased to one viewpoint and adding Kulik gives WP:WEIGHT to the page and so must be retained, even if some authors like the anonymous IP don't like what he says. Mztourist (talk) 15:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)