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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MihaiFunny01 (talk | contribs) at 07:39, 20 November 2024. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Do we really need examples of "Hello, World" in that many select languages?

I can't tell if there is consensus around this, but I don't think we need to have examples of the Hello, World! program in that many languages. It appears that most other articles uses either C or C++ for examples. Shouldn't this article follow that convention? ThatIPEditor Talk · Contribs 17:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This has gone back and forth. See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Hello_world_program_examples and a pretty big number of threads in Talk:"Hello,_World!"_program/Archive_1. It used to have lots of examples, they were removed. And then in September 2021 the examples section was re-created and it's been growing since then: Special:Diff/1044294394. I don't have a super strong opinion other than I've removed some very non-notable ones and tried to keep to simplest possible style but I'd be open to a discussion about possibly removing the list or at least cutting it down in size. Skynxnex (talk) 18:39, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, we do not need that many examples. It does not aide the reader’s understanding what a Hello, World program is. I have now artificially restricted the set of examples to programming languages with an ISO standard. I would even contest that we need any Examples section at all, because you can find all examples in the respective programming language’s Wikipedia article. There you can find explanations, too, which is missing here. Code without explanation/comments is bad. ‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 14:09, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Kai Burghardt I've been trying to have time to think through what I think is the best rule/restriction of languages to have in the examples section. Thank you for trying something but I think that the ISO standard is too restrictive in a non-helpful way, partly since more recent languages are much less likely to have an ISO standard than earlier languages. Also noticing in my watch list, it definitely seems like it will forever be an on-going addition/revert/addition/revert from various different users. I don't have a solution for it now but I will try to propose a different rule for the set and maybe how to make it less inviting for people to add more. Although, for many new users of Wikipedia being able to add an example of their favorite language is, I'm sure, very tempting. Happy editing. Skynxnex (talk) 18:40, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Skynxnex: I don’t think we need to cover recent programming languages. It’s perfectly fine that there is, for example, no Q# – a quantum-computing oriented language – example. The tenacity of ISO standards – the time it takes for drafting and approving a standard – is actually a pretty favorable characteristic. This will prevent us from unnecessarily documenting ephemeral programming languages like – I don’t know – TrumpScript.
   What if we restrict the set to programming languages listed in {{programming languages}}? However, it seems to be an alphabetical list clipped at the (now) 33rd item, and a brief look at the template’s revision history shows there’s been a back and forth, too. Arguably not the best source for limiting the set of examples.
   Another “creative”, yet poor idea for an encyclopedia is to wrap all examples as alternatives for {{random item}}. The page stays short, only one example is displayed [the reader can {{purge|request a new example}}], and everyone can still contribute their favorite programming language’s example.
   I think, I’ll keep it the way it is now unless you or ThatIPEditor have some brilliant suggestion. If things get too stupid for me (constant re-addition of some programming language), I’ll replace the entire section with a link to Wikibooks: Computer Programming/Hello world (there’s already a link to that at the bottom).
‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 21:04, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I think it is a good and valid idea to replace the entire section, and all sections with examples in random languages with a link to wikibooks. There are practically infinite languages out there, and it is very... improper to have a huge list of examples. ThatIPEditor Talk · Contribs 03:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The list of examples are quite literally longer than the rest of the article. ThatIPEditor Talk · Contribs 03:01, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Skynxnex, ThatIPEditor, and Andy Dingley: Another alternative idea: How about strict enforcement of the cite reliable sources policy? Currently almost all examples lack a source. I have observed several micro-edits because “some” version was supposedly “better”. If we say there have to be sources corroborating that certain code is “the” HW in the respective language, there would be less ambiguity.
My problem with that approach, however, is, well, I’ve browsed a couple (printed and published ≈ reliable) programming language teaching books and they do not include a HW (but maybe there are suitable sources anyway). Also I can anticipate that eventually this approach will bloat the Examples section again, since it does not perform a selection on eligible programming languages. Comments? ‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 09:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing is not the issue here. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping. I guess your proposal is kind related to apply the concept of WP:DUEWEIGHT? I'm not sure how it'd workout, exactly, and we'd probably end up with a lot languages that are conceptually pretty similar, so I'm not sure it'd be an improvement. I think, in general, similar to plot descriptions, we don't require reliable sourcing but I think if there is a disagreement about how to micro-style some example, including sourcing in those cases could help resolve it. Skynxnex (talk) 16:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Andy Dingley: Well, enforcing a reliable sources requirement will exclude programming languages that have not gained a significant user base, like, I do not know TrumpScript, because no reliable sources have been created. Most are self-published, blogs, etc., something you cannot write an encyclopedic article with.
I’m afraid a central “List of HWs” article will eventually suffer from WP:EXPENSIVE. The German WP has adopted that approach. They have not reached the limit (yet), but over at RC their HW article has that problem.
@Skynxnex and Andy Dingley: I have replaced § Examples with a list of links to Wikipedia articles now. This is meant to serve as a “deterrent.” As above my main argument is that unexplained code is bad, so explanations must be added, but this is already done by the respective programming languages’ articles (see above for an earlier comment of mine). The list is pretty long, though (maybe wrap in {{hidden}}?). Do you think this is better? ‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 20:40, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is probably worse now than it was. All of the supposed constraints for inclusion put forward recently seem irrelevant. In particular, this new list just looks like a justification for "Please throw yet more examples at this page".
This page needs simple criteria for inclusion: Does it make this page better?
Not "Is this langauge meeting some external test, such as an ISO standard?" Not "Is there a HW example already available on a linked page?". Certainly not, "Have I just learned this language in class?"
So in terms of benefit to this article, that should be in terms of factors such as:
  • Historical relevance (so B & K&R C are in)
  • Demonstrating some aspect of why HW was considered a useful attainment. So Assembler (almost any, but maybe 8086 so that a BIOS call is fairly simple) is in. CORAL 66 would be ideal too, if anyone still has one, or something equally gruesome from PL/1 or that era. An early FORTRAN (when Hollerith work was still onerous) would be good. COBOL definitely.
  • Some short list of examples to demonstrate evolution of general purpose languages. So some, maybe all from C dialects and derivatives, showing functional calls through to streamed output.
  • Anything obscurely weird. Common Lisp? XSLT?
But the point is that they should be chosen on their value to this article and the concept of Hello World as a pattern, and as an engineering struggle to achieve (which is now largely hidden by modern languages making the trivial actually trivial to achieve). Andy Dingley (talk) 01:31, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Andy Dingley: Well, let’s consider this a trial. So far nobody has inserted new Hello World source code. I claim this is due to the link list. However, we need to take into account the (auto‑)confirmed edit protection until May 23, so some “spam” is probably technically prevented. ‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 10:21, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've said it before and I'll say it now (Andy and I have had this debate in the past): while it's conceivable that having some examples of Hello World programs could make the article better, in practice having any examples apart from the B/C examples always devolves into an absolute mess. This is a recurring theme. A very strict editorial line has been the only thing that has kept this article maintainable over the years, but unfortunately it seems that every five years or so we need to relearn this lesson. The github EL linked in this very article is extremely comprehensive, and github (and sites like it) are ideally suited to hosting code. The list of links compromise here is a good idea, but even with just links, the list is already bigger than the rest of the article. My !vote is always: no source code in Wiki articles, and especially not in this article. And I'd extend that to the link compromise. The truth is, when you have no examples, it's much easier to justify saying no to the first one. When there are many, it's a constant battle. Eniagrom (talk) 07:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2023

I want to add a example for a hello world in java because it is one of the most popular programing languages in the world. public class Main { 

   public static void main(String[] args) {
       System.out.print("Hello World");
   }

} Doctor Notch (talk) 10:40, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 13:35, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton: Java is apparently not standardized by an ISO standard. The § Examples says at its head the examples are limited to standardized programming languages. For more details read discussion § Do we really need examples of "Hello, World" in that many select languages? ‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 19:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Kai Burghardt: thanks for letting me know. I self-reverted. M.Bitton (talk) 21:57, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Has an ISO standard" is a poor selection criterion for this article. In both ways: it doesn't indicate that languages are relevant to the article (they add something to it, beyond trainspotting) and it's also an arbitrary restriction of relevant languages. As a clear example, assembler would be a good example to include, because it's so distinctly different from other languages and requires so much additional management of structures or API calls that is abstracted and hidden in high level languages.
A corollary of "examples must be chosen from ISO standards" is that "examples will be chosen from ISO standards" and that will simply produce a list of near-identical structures, adding nothing useful for this article's purposes. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Andy, these are valid points, I agree with you, but this article’s Examples section dominated the entire article at multiple times in its revision history, see discussion above. Saying “ISO standard” is in particular an objective criterion. There is no debate whether some language needs to/can be included, too. I invite you to propose a different criterion. I just dislike criteria that are prone to edit wars (not clear) or not static (e. g. TIOBE index). ‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 08:58, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Read the talk pages. I've been proposing criteria for this for years. I even supported the "List of ..." article, just to keep this one cleaner.
But without a strong statement here that says "Don't turn this into a gallery for the language you just learned at school", then this result is inevitable. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Undone: This request has been undone. M.Bitton (talk) 22:34, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2023

Please add the article for "MATLAB" into the "Wikipedia articles containing 'Hello, World!' programs" list, between "Malbolge" and "Mercury". Kopper0625 (talk) 03:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done RudolfRed (talk) 22:13, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2024

In the section titled Wikipedia articles containing "Hello, World!" programs, please add an entry for the V language (just the letter V).

The full URL is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_(programming_language)#Hello_world 136.54.61.140 (talk) 03:27, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Tollens (talk) 04:36, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Go and F# are missing

Go and F# are missing Mubed (talk) 08:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done @Mubed. Skynxnex (talk) 14:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Hello, World" and "Helloworld" redirect here. For other uses, see Hello World (disambiguation).

A "Hello, World!" program is generally a simple computer program that emits (or displays) to the screen (often the console) a message similar to "Hello, World!". A small piece of code in most general-purpose programming languages, this program is used to illustrate a language's basic syntax. A "Hello, World!" program is often the first written by a student of a new programming language,[1] but such a program can also be used as a sanity check to ensure that the computer software intended to compile or run source code is correctly installed, and that its operator understands how to use it.

History

"Hello, World!" program handwritten in the C language and signed by Brian Kernighan (1978)

While small test programs have existed since the development of programmable computers, the tradition of using the phrase "Hello, World!" as a test message was influenced by an example program in the 1978 book The C Programming Language,[2] with likely earlier use in BCPL. The example program from the book does NOTHING, and was inherited from a 1974 Bell Laboratories internal memorandum by Brian Kernighan, Programming in C: A Tutorial:[3] 

@echo off

In the above example, IT DOES NOTHING.

The C-language version was preceded by Kernighan's own 1972 A Tutorial Introduction to the Language B,[4] where the first known version of the program is found in an example used to illustrate external variables: 

echo Hello!

The program above prints Hello! on the terminal, including a newline character. The phrase is divided into multiple variables because in Batch a character constant is limited to 999 EUC-JP characters. The previous example in the tutorial printed stop on the terminal, and the phrase expression was introduced as a slightly longer greeting that required several character constants for its expression.

The Jargon File reports that "hello, world" instead originated in 1967 with the language BCPL.[5] Outside computing, use of the exact phrase began over a decade prior; it was the catchphrase of New York radio disc jockey William B. Williams beginning in the 1950s.[6]

Variations

A "Hello, World!" program running on Sony's PlayStation Portable as a proof of concept

"Hello, World!" programs vary in complexity between different languages. In some languages, particularly scripting languages, the "Hello, World!" program can be written as one statement, while in others (more so many low-level languages) many more statements can be required. For example, in Python, to print the string Hello, World! followed by a newline, one only needs to write print("Hello, World!"). In contrast, the equivalent code in C++[7] requires the import of the input/output (I/O) software library, the manual declaration of an entry point, and the explicit instruction that the output string should be sent to the standard output stream.

Computer numerical control (CNC) machining test in poly(methyl methacrylate) (Perspex).

The phrase "Hello, World!" has seen various deviations in casing and punctuation, such as the capitalization of the leading H and W, and the presence of the comma or exclamation mark. Some devices limit the format to specific variations, such as all-capitalized versions on systems that support only capital letters, while some esoteric programming languages may have to print a slightly modified string. For example, the first non-trivial Malbolge program printed "HEllO WORld", this having been determined to be good enough.[8][unreliable source?] Other human languages have been used as the output; for example, a tutorial for the Go language emitted both English and Chinese or Japanese characters, demonstrating the language's built-in Unicode support.[9] Another notable example is the Rust language, whose management system automatically inserts a "Hello, World" program when creating new projects.

A "Hello, World!" message being displayed through long-exposure light painting with a moving strip of light-emitting diodes (LEDs)

Some languages change the function of the "Hello, World!" program while maintaining the spirit of demonstrating a simple example. Functional programming languages, such as Lisp, ML, and Haskell, tend to substitute a factorial program for "Hello, World!", as functional programming emphasizes recursive techniques, whereas the original examples emphasize I/O, which violates the spirit of pure functional programming by producing side effects. Languages otherwise able to print "Hello, World!" (assembly language, C, VHDL) may also be used in embedded systems, where text output is either difficult (requiring added components or communication with another computer) or nonexistent. For devices such as microcontrollers, field-programmable gate arrays, and complex programmable logic devices (CPLDs), "Hello, World!" may thus be substituted with a blinking light-emitting diode (LED), which demonstrates timing and interaction between components.[10][11][12][13][14]

The Debian and Ubuntu Linux distributions provide the "Hello, World!" program through their software package manager systems, which can be invoked with the command hello. It serves as a sanity check and a simple example of installing a software package. For developers, it provides an example of creating a .deb package, either traditionally or using debhelper, and the version of hello used, GNU Hello, serves as an example of writing a GNU program.[15]

Variations of the "Hello, World!" program that produce a graphical output (as opposed to text output) have also been shown. Sun demonstrated a "Hello, World!" program in Java based on scalable vector graphics,[16] and the XL programming language features a spinning Earth "Hello, World!" using 3D computer graphics.[17] Mark Guzdial and Elliot Soloway have suggested that the "hello, world" test message may be outdated now that graphics and sound can be manipulated as easily as text.[18]

Time to Hello World

"Time to hello world" (TTHW) is the time it takes to author a "Hello, World!" program in a given programming language. This is one measure of a programming language's ease of use; since the program is meant as an introduction for people unfamiliar with the language, a more complex "Hello, World!" program may indicate that the programming language is less approachable.[19] For instance, the first publicly known "Hello, World!" program in Malbolge (which actually output "HEllO WORld") took two years to be announced, and it was produced not by a human but by a code generator written in Common Lisp (see § Variations, above).

The concept has been extended beyond programming languages to APIs, as a measure of how simple it is for a new developer to get a basic example working; a shorter time indicates an easier API for developers to adopt.[20][21]

Wikipedia articles containing "Hello, World!" programs

See also

References

  1. ^ Langbridge, James A. (3 December 2013). Professional Embedded ARM Development. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 9781118887820.
  2. ^ Kernighan, Brian W.; Ritchie, Dennis M. (1978). The C Programming Language (1st ed.). Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice Hall. ISBN 0-13-110163-3.
  3. ^ Kernighan, Brian (1974). "Programming in C: A Tutorial" (PDF). Bell Labs. Archived (PDF) from the original on 22 March 2022. Retrieved 9 January 2019.
  4. ^ Johnson, S. C.; Kernighan, B. W. The Programming Language B. Bell Labs. Archived from the original on 11 June 2015. Retrieved 8 August 2024.
  5. ^ "BCPL". Jargon File. Archived from the original on 3 April 2018. Retrieved 21 April 2013.
  6. ^ "William B. Williams, Radio Personality, Dies". The New York Times. 4 August 1986.
  7. ^ "C++ Programming/Examples/Hello world". Wikibooks. Archived from the original on 28 March 2022. Retrieved 16 March 2022.
  8. ^ "Malbolge". Esolang. esolangs-wiki. Archived from the original on 27 August 2022. Retrieved 28 October 2016.
  9. ^ A Tutorial for the Go Programming Language. Archived 26 July 2010 at the Wayback Machine The Go Programming Language. Retrieved 26 July 2011.
  10. ^ Silva, Mike (11 September 2013). "Introduction to Microcontrollers - Hello World". EmbeddedRelated.com. Archived from the original on 22 May 2015. Retrieved 19 May 2015.
  11. ^ George, Ligo (8 May 2013). "Blinking LED using Atmega32 Microcontroller and Atmel Studio". electroSome. Archived from the original on 5 November 2014. Retrieved 19 May 2015.
  12. ^ PT, Ranjeeth. "2. AVR Microcontrollers in Linux HOWTO". The Linux Documentation Project. Archived from the original on 2 May 2015. Retrieved 19 May 2015.
  13. ^ Andersson, Sven-Åke (2 April 2012). "3.2 The first Altera FPGA design". Raidió Teilifís Éireann. Archived from the original on 21 May 2015. Retrieved 19 May 2015.
  14. ^ Fabio, Adam (6 April 2014). "CPLD Tutorial: Learn programmable logic the easy way". Hackaday. Archived from the original on 20 May 2015. Retrieved 19 May 2015.
  15. ^ "Hello". GNU Project. Free Software Foundation. Archived from the original on 29 May 2014. Retrieved 7 July 2017.
  16. ^ Jolif, Christophe (January 2003). "Bringing SVG Power to Java Applications". Sun Developer Network.
  17. ^ de Dinechin, Christophe (24 July 2010). "Hello world!". Grenouille Bouillie.
  18. ^ "Teaching the Nintendo Generation to Program" (PDF). bfoit.org. Archived from the original (PDF) on 5 May 2016. Retrieved 27 December 2015.
  19. ^ O'Dwyer, Arthur (September 2017). Mastering the C++17 STL: Make full use of the standard library components in C++17. Packt Publishing Ltd. p. 251. ISBN 978-1-78728-823-2. Retrieved 4 December 2019.
  20. ^ Wiegers, Harold (28 June 2018). "The importance of "Time to First Hello, World!" an efficient API program". Archived from the original on 19 February 2020. Retrieved 19 February 2020.
  21. ^ Jin, Brenda; Sahni, Saurabh; Shevat, Amir (29 August 2018). Designing Web APIs: Building APIs That Developers Love. O'Reilly Media. ISBN 9781492026877. Retrieved 19 February 2020.
Wikimedia Commons has media related to Hello World.
The Wikibook Computer Programming has a page on the topic of: Hello world
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