Talk:Monero

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On the advertising.

@Grayfell removed the advertising example and asked to "provide context for advertising". I'm unsure what this means, but the article already confirms that monero is used amongst anarchist/anti-establishment groups, quoting from the privacy section:

These features have given Monero a loyal following among crypto anarchists, cypherpunks, and privacy advocates.

So the advert stating

Marketing material distributed by the Monero community promoting crypto anarchism

Does seem justified and placed into context within the article. And if the citation is not enough, I'm sure more can be found. Pouring grain (talk) 22:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For context, this is about this edit.

The very simple answer is that neither 'getmonero.org' nor 'monerooutreach.org' are reliable sources. Further, Wikipedia uses independent sources to demonstrate encyclopedic significance. So the goal should be to use reliable, independent sources to explain to readers why some bit of information is encyclopedically significant. Those sources were not sufficient for this.

I advise against looking for sources to support your own first-hand knowledge. Instead, look at what reliable sources are saying and summarize them without interpreting them. Only dip-into primary sources for extremely basic information or to clarify something that is only partially explained by reliable independent sources.

It's also worth emphasizing that Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion or advocacy, so we need to be saying something more substantial than "marketing material exists, here is an example". Our goal is to provide context, nor merely compile trivia. Grayfell (talk) 22:51, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comment and I now understand the issue. I'm new to Wikipedia so the policies can be sometimes overwhelming. For the topic of WP:RS I think I will use the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for additional sources that could be of use to the article, but have concerns over.

Pouring grain (talk) 09:19, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We do have some extra restrictions (informal but widespread consensus) to use only high quality WP:RS on all cryptocurrency articles. So that means no blogs, press releases, WP:UGC, and other low quality stuff. I would suggest you look for sources that can be found as greenlighted on WP:RSP. Things like fortune, bloomberg, nyt, wsj, etc. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 10:50, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unnecessary inclusion of the criminal activity source.

Regarding the third paragraph - "It is used in illicit activities such as money laundering, darknet markets, ransomware, cryptojacking, and other organized crime."

How aren't other cryptocurrencies and fiat currencies also used in illicit activities? 173.246.209.202 (talk) 16:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with this point. I checked the source, and it was also a dead link. So i removed it for now. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jtbobwaysf: This isn't a valid point, it's just the usual whataboutism we always see with cryptocurrency articles.

Being a dead link is not a justification for whitewashing the article, per WP:LINKROT, but just as importantly, WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY. The article already has a lengthy section on #Illicit use, where this is already explained with multiple sources. As always, the lead is merely a summary of the body of the article.

Further, the sentence immediately after the one you cut no longer makes sense. You can cut the dead source if you want, but you do not have consensus to remove this content from the lead. Grayfell (talk) 09:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Its not my WP:ONUS to find dead sources. Maybe you can find it if the content is important to you. We are not doing unsourced content in crypto articles, you are aware of that. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please pay closer attention to what I am saying. The sources are already in the article. That's what WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY means. Since you do not have consensus to remove this content, I am restoring the status quo wording. The onus is on you to change the status quo. You could do this by explaining why sources used in the #Illicit use section are inappropriate, or why you think that wording was not an appropriate summary of the body. As I said, being a dead link doesn't even make a source unreliable, much less justify ignoring multiple other sources already cited in the article. Grayfell (talk) 04:14, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for adding Monero sign

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Previously I wanted to add Monero sign (ɱ) to the page however @Grayfell reverted the change and mentioned the sign can cause confusion with similar signs and asked for citation.

This seems to be valid concern however only Bitcoin page has citation but lots of cryptocurrency pages with their sign included without citation. Some examples are: Dogecoin, Litecoin, Namecoin, Primecoin, Auroracoin and much more.

And if citation is still required these links may be used:

https://unicode-explorer.com/c/0271
https://cryptobriefing.com/bitcoin-crypto-signs-symbols/

Throat0390 (talk) 20:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, a lot of pages about cryptocurrency have unsourced or poorly-sourced information. Problems at other articles are not a valid excuse to add new problems to this article. I have made some adjustments to the Litecoin article, but as always, much much more work is needed.

As for these sources, "Cryptobriefing.com" is not a reliable source. Even with the caveat that it should not be cited, it does explain that the use of most of these symbols is inconsistent. It also barely mentions Monero at all. About the ɱ for Monero it says "Though these symbols are appealing and stylized, observers from outside the crypto world may not instinctively recognize them as currency signs".[1] Wikipedia isn't part of the "crypto world"; this is a general-audience encyclopedia. If reliable sources do not support the wide-spread use of this symbols, this is nothing more than jargon and heavy-handed branding.

But as I said, this doesn't appear to be a reliable source, anyway. Crypto outlets rarely are.

I also do not see any indication that Unicode-explorer is reliable. It doesn't appear to have any indication of fact-checking, nor any explanation of its editorial process, nor any indication of who hosts it or why. The simple standard for reliability is that a source has a (positive) reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, per WP:RS.

To clarify, I'm not disputing that some people have used this symbol for Monero (or other symbols for Litecoin, etc.). I am saying that without a reliable source, this is both needlessly confusing and also indistinguishable from trivia. Just because bitcoin and "real" currencies have a symbol doesn't automatically mean that every cryptocurrency also has a symbol, and it would be up to reliable sources to tell us what that symbol is. As the unreliable source mentions, users of these cryptocurrencies have pushed these symbols specifically as a marketing tactic, but Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion. Grayfell (talk) 21:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have set the request to answered, as there is no consensus. You can continue to discuss this, but please do not reopen this request until consensus has changed. Grayfell (talk) 21:52, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When I did a search of google for this odd symbol which linked to Voiced labiodental nasal. While interesting to me in that I have never heard of it (wikipedia editing is fun in that it shows us some really odd things). But back to the subject, at hand, I dont see anything even on google that suggests this is the system. Even when i search for the sumbol and the word crypto, i only see some complaints on reddit that we dont include the symbol. This is not the level of content quality that we include, we tend to follow at wikipedia, and we dont lead. I too am opposed to this inclusion without a few good RS. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Block reward isn't completely fixed

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

I request changing | block_reward = XMR 0.6 to | block_reward = XMR 0.6 ≥

Because Monero has dynamic block size, which makes block reward is not always 0.6, sometimes it can be less.

More detailed explanation of dynamic block size: https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/11283/can-someone-help-me-understand-the-dynamic-block-size-in-monero Throat0390 (talk) 01:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you find us a WP:RS that discusses this? In the case of cryptocurrency articles, it would be a book, a mainstream newspaper (fortune, wsj, bloomberg, etc), and cant be a contributor news piece, a blog, reddit, etc. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 02:32, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, here's my findings:

https://web.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf#subsection.7.3.3 (page 64, section 7.3.3)
https://masteringmonero.com/book/Mastering%20Monero%20First%20Edition%20by%20SerHack%20and%20Monero%20Community.pdf (page 139, section 5.5.3.2)
https://www.binance.com/en/research/analysis/monero-hard-fork (section 2.1)

First 2 sources may count as contributor sources however its also possible to verify this fact using a blockchain explorer, for an example:

Block 3102996 has 0.599978 XMR block reward while block 3154914 is exactly 0.6 XMR

Another example from 2017:

Block 1355956 has 6.756 XMR while one block earlier has 6.967 XMR - 0.211 XMR less than full reward because of dynamic block size and penalty system.

Throat0390 (talk) 00:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done by myself Throat0390 (talk) 21:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Missing Information and Historical Clarification

I have noticed a significant gap in the background information of the Monero article. Furthermore, there is a misrepresentation regarding its origins.

The current text states:

> "A Bitcointalk forum user "thankful_for_today" coded these ideas into a coin they dubbed BitMonero. Other forum users disagreed with thankful_for_today's direction for BitMonero, so forked it in 2014 to create Monero."

This wording is misleading as it suggests that BitMonero was an entirely new creation. In reality, BitMonero was a fork of Bytecoin, which was the first implementation of the CryptoNote protocol (sometimes referred to as one of the first, despite being created two years before any fork, three if you count development before genesis). The critical point is that BitMonero was not coded from scratch but was based on Bytecoin's codebase. Ztdwiki (talk) 01:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, the text mentions:

> "The protocol is open source and based on CryptoNote, a concept described in a 2013 white paper authored by Nicolas van Saberhagen."

This is somewhat inaccurate. The original concept of CryptoNote was described in version 1.0 of the white paper in 2012, while the 2013 reference corresponds to version 2.0. Ztdwiki (talk) 01:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done - changed to: based on CryptoNote v2 Throat0390 (talk) 21:53, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

partially done by adding to info box like I added to Litecoin. Throat0390 (talk) 21:47, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extend Kraken's delist

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[2] Throat0390 (talk) 02:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]