Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scuderi Split Cycle Engine

Scuderi Split Cycle Engine

This article has turned into nothing but a promotional piece for the Scuderi group. Its is written from the perspective of the company and likely by members of the company. Its only source that is not the company's web site turns out to be a reprint of the company's own literature so is hardly reliable. The Scuderi engine exists only in theory, as a working prototype has never been produced. Acces to the computer simulations the company claims shows their engine is a major breakthrough are apparently only available if you sign an NDA first. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball nor is it an appropriate place to promote a speculative technology. Until independent and reliable sources have had the chance to review a working engine and report their findings, I don't believe we should be hosting this article Gwernol 19:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tricky one, and I'm glad you are watching this article. It undoubtedly is a technology that is being worked on very seriously, and for all I can tell may well be viable. (he said politely, I doubt it actually). As such, there is no doubt in my mind that it deserves an article. BUT. The behaviour of the current active editor is extremely poor, in a Wiki context. Obviously actions like deleting the AfD and No Sources boxes are completely unnacceptable, and many of their other edits have needed reverting. So, perhaps we have an editor problem more than an article problem? Deleting the article to punish a rogue editor seems spiteful more than helpful. Greglocock 21:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree this one is tricky. I started working on this article in June 2006, so I have some history with it. Unfortunately it is increasingly becoming clear that the claims made in the article are currently unproved. It might be possible to reduce this to a stub, containing the bare minimum of verifiable information and removing all future predictions of performance, but I fear it would soon be overrun again by the Scuderi company. If the community would prefer that approach I'm happy to jump in and do the trimming work. The question is, would there even be enough left to have a viable article? Gwernol 22:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I worked up a quick draft of a minimalist version of the article. This would need proper sourcing, but I believe we could do that from the Wired article. Everything else would be removed. Is this worth having? Gwernol 22:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work, but I think I stand by what I said below. That article does not actually assert the notability of the subject. J Milburn 22:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. There is no assertion of notability, and the article is in breach of WP:V, quote- "Salvatore Scuderi is president of Scuderi Group, LLC and has released all information above either at various investor meetings and/or on company websites. Some material such as Steam Engine Turbine capability does not have attributions online because the technology has not yet been published on their website because of how recently it was patented." J Milburn 22:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(comment moved from top of page): I would like for you to explain to me what exactly you are proving by having this removed from the system. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sg300c (talk • contribs).
- What we are doing is trying to keep this an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is the summarization of work that has been published and reviewed in reliable sources. If you read the list of things that Wikipedia excludes you'll see that "Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation. All articles about anticipated events must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred". At present almost all the material in the article is speculation that cannot be verified from independent sources because there is no working prototype that has been independently studied. All the claims in the article are speculation and worse, most of them are speculation by the Scuderi group itself, hardly an unbiased source. Gwernol 00:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete "While no working prototype of the engine exists" -- if it ever does, and if anyone outside the group actually writes about it, then it will be time for an article. DGG 00:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I understand the position you are stating but please try to understand that because this is so new and there is no prototype completed YET! I cannot prove to you it's legitimacy. I was simply just trying to spread the word about the new technology becuase it has such great potential to revolutionize the engine market. I am not part of the company either I am engine buff that reviewed the technology and invested in it because I see a homerun on this technology. Having said that if you still feel it needs to be removed then so be it, but just remember what the Scuderi Engine is. Even though this is here say everything in document is correct and it will only be time before it can be proven to you aswell. Have a good day! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sg300c (talk • contribs).

Delete or Rewrite It does read like an ad, but the split-cycle engine concept does exist. The removal of 99% of the mention of the Scuderi Group would make this ad closer to being an article. A few independant links to split-cycle engine concept pages and news articles would make this article complete.--Lostcause365 15:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It may seem like an ad but that is not the purpose. The true reason why Scuderi Group is mentioned so much about this specific design is because out of all split cycle designs in the past this design has many different features that that cannot be compared to older split cycle designs. Their name is used a lot simply to show credit where credit is due. No other person has done what the Scuderi's have done and I think they should be given credit for that. News articles about this specific technology can be added if neccessary.--sg300c 03:41, 1 April 2007

Weak keep. Full disclosure: I did the diagram a while back, when I was hitting random article and looking for something interesting. Does it have more than non-trivial press coverage? Yes. Should the article be re-written, to make clear who's making the claims ? Yes. The article should probably have inline citations <ref> tags for all of the claims. I think it's a case of improve, rather than delete - however. I'll try to make some appropriate changes now. Megapixie 23:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

keep. I respect you Megapixie for your insight on this. Yes I agree myself that it is not fully referenced correctly but at this time it is a bit difficult to do so since it is such new technology. As time goes on it will get better and better especially with a prototype on the way. For the time being I have referenced all the claims as by Salvatore Scuderi to a video that explains the technology in a creditable way. I also agree Megapixie that for the time being your revision to the listing was well done. As the technology becomes more established it can be transistioned back into a more verified state.--sg300c 21:37, 1 April 2007

Do you realise that your persistent editing/vandalism is /increasing/ the probability that this article will be deleted? Please read up on wiki policies before editing again. Greglocock 01:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - per nom. WP:ATT is lacking; WP:N questionable. Morenooso 01:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "As the technology becomes more established it can be transistioned back into a more verified state." So by this statement you are saying that the article cannot be rewritten from a neutral viewpoint with multiple sources not connected to the Scuderi group? ...almost like you're endorsing the AfD... just food for thought--Lostcause365 17:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response No that is not what I was saying. I was simply stating that as the technology becomes more established it will become more verified with information that can be referenced. I never stated who would be verifing it. I can tell you though at that point the Scuderi Group won't even have to be writing about it anymore.sg300c 13:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can tell you though at that point the Scuderi Group won't even have to be writing about it anymore. So now you verify a conflict of interest? --Lostcause365 19:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response No it is not a conflict of interest. It is like anything else that is new, it's a process that needs to take place. You have a small company making such big claims about something they've invited of course there will be skeptics. The thing is most of the general public doesn't even know about this technology or understand how it works. So I was saying once again that as the technology progresses and becomes more known it will then get more creditable to the everyday person.sg300c 16:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It most definitely is a conflict of interest. Please read our guideline on conflicts of interest, note it says "you should avoid or exercise great caution when editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with". The Scuderi Group should not be editing this article and particularly they should not be adding unverifiable claims to it. This is one of the core policies of Wikipedia. Gwernol 20:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response Ok I'm confused when you say, "The Scuderi Group should not be editing this article...". No one person from the Scuderi Group has ever created or edited any part of this article. I am not part of the Scuderi Group and all my claims have come from media sources or their website. I'm also a little confused as well because your saying the information isn't verified but it is. All the information in this article are claims by the Scuderi Group themselves and is verified by themselves. No other sources can deny that so I don't understand why the article can't just be verified by the ones who created it and have that be the end of it.sg300c 17:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First please read the conflict of interest guidelines. They say "you should avoid or exercise great caution when editing articles related to you". You've admitted you have a financial interest in the Scuderi Group. That's a classic conflict of interest. On the subject of sources, material provided by the Scuderi Group does not count as a reliable source. Please read our guidelines on reliable sources. The subject of an article is not itself a reliable source. You have not verified the information because the only source are the claims of the Scuderi Group. Until there is independent sources that confirm these claims, they cannot be reported in Wikipedia. Again an encyclopedia is a summarization of the opinions and facts collected by independent authors about a subject. If an article could be "verified by the ones who created it" we would have to publish everything, with absolutely no quality control and no way for readers to find out if what was included was true. There are hundreds of free web hosts where you can add this kind of information. Wikipedia is not one of them. Gwernol 21:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response Ok fair enough. It's not a big deal whether it stays on or not I just thought it was cool to post it on wikipedia. I guess it's just not ready for an encyclopedia yet and I understand that. I don't want to edit it anymore because it would ruin the information I wanted to address so if it doesn't meet your standards do what you would like.sg300c 17:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]