Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Soap Operas/Archive 12

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Archive 12

List of past characters

Following the discussion to amend the usage of "past" to "former", I wanted to open up a discussion on the lists of past characters – specifically Hollyoaks, Emmerdale, EastEnders, Corrie, Neighbours and Home and Away. Since we agreed to use "former" in the character infobox, should the title of the article that it redirects to reflect that change? So, I'm proposing that the six listed articles be moved to "List of former [soap] characters". There would need to be a lot of link changes if the articles were renamed, but these edits could be performed in moments with autowikibrowser, so don't let the idea of a "large edit task" make you oppose the move, since it wouldn't be a large task. Let me know what you think! – DarkGlow (contribs • talk) 13:30, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

There'll be a redirect in place so the links won't need changing straight away, surely? They can be changed if/when editors come across them. - JuneGloom07 Talk 00:33, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, so it's not an urgent task by any means. The only thing that won't work is the landing to a specific section. – DarkGlow (contribs • talk) 01:23, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

@Soaper1234, Raintheone, DaniloDaysOfOurLives, 5 albert square, and AnemoneProjectors: Just pinging some soap editors here to see if we can get a consensus to amend the page titles to former. – DarkGlow (contribs • talk) 15:34, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

We already have the consensus. Just someone needs to make the edits. Unfortunately I can't use AWB on my Chromebook and I don't have enough spare time to do such a big job at the moment.-- 5 albert square (talk) 15:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks for the ping. I guess it makes sense for these to match up. The consensus was to use "former" in infoboxes, then we refer to them as "former characters". How many pages would need to be moved? — 🌼📽️AnemoneProjectors💬 15:55, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@AnemoneProjectors: That's okay! The "past" pages are Hollyoaks, Emmerdale, EastEnders, Corrie, Neighbours and Home and Away. As June pointed out, the redirects that would be created will mean that it will redirect to the correct article, but the piping will break that leads a user to "Last appeared in 2017", for example. – DarkGlow (contribs • talk) 16:21, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I was under the impression that section anchors still work with redirects. For example, check out this link: Albert Square#Turpin Road. Albert Square is a redirect to Walford#Albert Square but that link still takes you to the Turpin Road section. So the links won't be broken. So we would just need to do 6 page moves and the rest should be fine. Unless it breaks in certain browsers? But it's fine in mine. I could do some work in AWB though. I just reinstalled it yesterday! — 🌼📽️AnemoneProjectors💬 16:51, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@AnemoneProjectors: Oh! I believed it broke anchored redirects. Glad to be wrong since it means less work! I guess, like 5 albert square said, we have the consensus that "former" is preferred to "past", so I can perform the moves now? – DarkGlow (contribs • talk) 17:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@DarkGlow: I don't see why not. The only pages you should need to edit are navigation templates, the rest can be left as redirects, at least for now. However, see the reply I'm about to put to you on my talk page. — 🌼📽️AnemoneProjectors💬 17:56, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

2020

An issue has arose on List of General Hospital cast members. Some actors did not appear in 2020 due to covid and have reappeared this year, so I change the duration to say "xxxx–2019, 2021" as to say that they have appeared since xxxx is a lie, as they have not appeared in 2020. To a reader this assumes that the character has appeared in 2020, when they have not. MOS specifically says to include the years that the character/actor appeared onscreen, not if they were on contract etc. The cast and character lists for years have been about whether the actor/cast member has appeared in that year, and since they didn't appear in 2020, they should not be counted – and I am not doing this to be mean of course, it is simply because if this was a rule, this would mean that A LOT of characters/cast members would have their durations shortened. And durations are speficially there so say whether the person in question appeared on screen that year, and I don't think it should be changed just due to covid DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 23:47, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Beth Jordache (Brookside)

Why does Beth Jordache from the UK soap opera Brookside not have a wikipedia profile? Played by Anna Friel from 1993-95 is the most iconic character from that show, having had the first lesbian kiss in soap history and the infamous killing of the father who sexually abused her and burying him under the patio? What perplexes me is that relatively minor Brookside characters have been written extensive profiles but Beth has nothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ATGreen85 (talk • contribs) 00:07, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@ATGreen85: Write her an article then – see WP:YFA for help. – DarkGlow • 00:29, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Reliance on the unreliable Daily Star

Hi folks. Just a quick heads-up: many articles belonging to this project, especially about British soap operas such as EastEnders, Neighbours, and Emmerdale, rely on references from the deprecated tabloid Daily Star. Per WP:DAILYSTAR these references should be removed or replaced as soon as possible. You can use this search to find articles using the Daily Star. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 09:54, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@Robby.is.on: Hi – I'm relatively sure some soap editors were looking into a carve out for the source on soap articles – Northern & Shell own Daily Star, who also owned Channel 5 (a network of a few soaps) therefore editors feel it is a reliable source for soap reporting. I'm not sure where said carve out is, so I'll ping Raintheone who I'm sure was handling it. – DarkGlow • 12:29, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I can follow that reasoning. But the Daily Star being deprecated means it "is considered generally unreliable, and use of the source is generally prohibited." (WP:DEPREC). Robby.is.on (talk) 07:20, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

@Robby.is.on: I know about deprecated sources so I know it's likely a matter of time before someone starts to remove the sources; that's why I thought it best to inform you of the potential carve. Therefore, it's perhaps best to wait on removing them until there's a result on that? I'm relatively sure David Gerard is aware of this too. – DarkGlow • 12:26, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Metro soaps carve out

Just to let you all know, I have started a discussion on a potential carve out for the soap coverage of WP:METRO on the RSN. Feel free to contribute. – DarkGlow • 13:34, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Images of past actors

I wonder if there is a project consensus over images of former actors for long-standing soap characters. I notice that these have now been removed at Janine Butcher after a long period (they were, in fairness, just two images of young girls from over 20 years ago), yet remain at Ben Mitchell (EastEnders), for instance. I was considering whether images of one or both of the previous Lucy Robinsons would be fair use, as that article discusses the image change that went along with her recast to the current actor. U-Mos (talk) 00:54, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

@U-Mos: I'd say it was fair use. The photo has to provide something significant to the reader, and if there is detailed information on her image, it could be included as fair use. – DarkGlow • 13:33, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

@DarkGlow: Thanks, I gave it a go at Lucy Robinson (Neighbours)#Reception. U-Mos (talk) 02:50, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@U-Mos: As there is already an image of Melissa Bell as Lucy in the article, I think it would've made more sense to upload images of Flinker and Close, with a caption mentioning the changes between all three actors. There's also a couple of comments about the image change from the first Lucy too, as well as more casting and characterisation info for Flinker's version of the character. - JuneGloom07 Talk 23:59, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@JuneGloom07: That was my initial intention, but on going to the article I felt that there wasn't any substantial commentary to warrant an image of Flinker, with the discussion primarily regarding the transition to Bell's most established version of the role from the child actors who preceded her. And Bell's Lucy in the early 90s looks markedly different from the infobox image of her twenty years on - the latter cannot signify the teenage 'bimbo' description of her early years. U-Mos (talk) 03:17, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Mrs Tembe#Requested move 3 December 2021

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Mrs Tembe#Requested move 3 December 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. I hope that you will comment there. Thank you.--John Cline (talk) 11:47, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

"Wikipedia talk:SOAP" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Wikipedia talk:SOAP and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 1#Wikipedia talk:SOAP until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. DB1729 (talk) 11:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Neighbours cancellation

I've just added a quick note to the main soap opera article about Neighbours being axed. Someone should go through that page and check if anything else needs to be updated as a result of that show ending. Digifiend (talk) 11:57, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment at Talk:Coronation Street

There is currently a dispute regarding a paragraph of prose on the Coronation Street article where other editor input would be helpful, currently being discussed at Talk:Coronation Street#April Fools Prank. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:52, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of Douglas Potts for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Douglas Potts is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Douglas Potts until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

(Oinkers42) (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Template:Infobox soap character changes

A discussion about changes to the above template was opened a week ago, but it doesn't appear to have been mentioned here or at other relevant WikiProjects. Please feel free to join in with the discussion about the changes, or add any suggestions of your own on how to improve the template here. - JuneGloom07 Talk 23:23, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:20, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Whitney Dean

Whitney Dean is a 2008 GA with a 6k+ word storylines section. I'm posting here in case anyone would like to trim it down by 80%, otherwise I'm going to create a GAR. Alyo (chat·edits) 16:28, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Same thing applies to Abi Branning, Dot Cotton, Cora Cross, Fatboy (EastEnders), and Chrissie Watts. These are all pre-2012 GAs that have just ballooned over the years and need to be cut back quite a bit. Alyo (chat·edits) 19:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Storyline summary word limit

Following the above discussion, I thought it may be worth adjusting the limit for storylines section on articles falling within this WikiProject scope. Currently, guidance states "Storyline summary; 500-1000 words maximum". However, this does not seem practical for characters with more screen time, even when condensed down. For example, Paul Robinson (Neighbours) has a 6081 words word count, which seems appropriate for character with plenty of screen time over the course of ~25 years. However, on the other side, I would expect characters with shorter amounts of screen time (e.g. Lydia Simmonds who appeared prominently for 3 months) to have a smaller word count. The main point here is that we need to look at changing the limits for storyline sections in character articles. I am pinging some editors for their opinions on the matter: @JuneGloom07, Raintheone, AnemoneProjectors, 5 albert square, Meena, DaniloDaysOfOurLives, and Therealscorp1an:. Feel free to ping others that I've missed so we can reach a consensus. Soaper1234 - talk 21:20, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Hey, apologies for the lateness. I actually was thinking above starting this discussion as I was thinking the exact same thing! I think for many characters that have appeared for a long time 1000 words is way too short. So I agree 100% with extending the word count. DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 07:44, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Paul Robinson (Neighbours) is absolutely not an appropriate example. When it was promoted to GA in 2010, the storyline section was almost exactly 2k words--and as you note that has now tripled. That article should also be cut down significantly in order to maintain GA status. Nearly a decade of his storyline is summarized in four paragraphs, but then 2004-present takes twenty-three. It's clear where the unbalance is, and how fans expand storyline sections over time beyond what is needed for a general summary. Wikipedia is not a soap opera wiki, which is where that level of detail belongs. Alyo (chat·edits) 06:11, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

@Alyo: Ok, but if when promoted to GA, it was at 2k words, this was surely deemed an appropriate length. This works out approximately at 154 words per year on-screen (~13 years) for Paul and would mean an appropriate length of 3850 words now, which does not factor in how the number of episodes per year increased over that period, meaning more screen time and more storylines. I will just stress that the objective to this discussion is to increase the word limit, but not dramatically so. Just to a reasonable amount that can be appropriate for characters with more screen time. Soaper1234 - talk 15:58, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Err, no, that just means the GA passed. The WP:SOAP guidance at that time was still 500 words with greater allowance for the most notable characters. Just because a single reviewer at that time thought the storyline section was acceptable does not become a baseline from which to extrapolate and add 150 words per year. There are clear policy-based reasons described here why storyline sections should be kept manageable. Saying "500 words doesn't seem practical" (especially when there's already a caveat for more notable characters) isn't a sufficient answer to those policies imo, I'm sorry. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Sally St. Claire is a close example of what we currently "allow" at 976 words, albeit much longer storyline sections have become normalised. My laptop is at default font size and that section takes up my screen - which I think is enough. I don't usually deem storyline sections as worthy content, as I prefer to read and create sourced development sections. They definitely serve a purpose for older or niche storylines where the only source is the series itself, but other than that, if it can be sourced further down an article in development, why have it in storylines? – Meena • 11:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it is difficult to write a short plot section for characters who appear over decades. I would not be against the limit being changed for long-term characters providing it is within reason and everything really needs to be there to help the general reader understand. That seems non-controversial to me. Whether that is a blanket change or consideration on a case-by-case basis? In this case - I think Paul Robinson's storyline section is too long and needs condensing. I have done well to have been unbiased since I do not like storyline sections. Some of you here may have noticed I have not included them in my contributions for years now.Rain the 1 18:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC)