Talk:Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing/Archive 9
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"Unusually for a pseudoscience"
I notice that @Terringer and @MrOllie have been having a dispute about this line. Personally I favor removal of that line, since I think the balance of the sources very much show that EMDR as a whole is not pseudoscientific. One academic book, however reliable, doesn't override several big WP:MEDORG sources that call EMDR an evidence-based treatment for PTSD.
This is separate from whether the eye movements or Shapiro's original proposed explanation were pseudoscientific. Those may well be; at the very least the eye movements are only marginally supported by evidence at best, and Shapiro's original proposed explanation has received basically no independent support and seems to be pretty clearly debunked. While we have many sources that endorse EMDR as evidence-based, the strongest ones are mostly either agnostic as to the mechanism or explicitly endorse it as a form of exposure therapy. Loki (talk) 17:11, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Seems well-sourced. Can't think why it should be removed. We're not going to re-run the disruptive fallacy about what-sources-don't-say again are we? Bon courage (talk) 17:13, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- We have discussed this at length multiple times. The MEDORG sources don't support the arguments you're trying to use them for. We don't need to re-litigate this again from scratch because a newbie editor made some drive-by edits without consulting the talk page. MrOllie (talk) 17:41, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Right, the pseudoscience-in source straight-up says almost this exact phrasing. Very well supported. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 17:43, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Regardless of the sourcing, this is certainly an odd phrase in context. Up to that point, the only mention of "pseudoscience" was in the intro. 162.212.155.78 (talk) 21:33, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Loki and Terringer that the intro "Unusually for a pseudoscience" is best removed. The pseudoscience point is clear and visible in several sections of the article, including the lede. It has not been marginalized. Yes, the phrase can be verified in the source but, as always, just because something is verifiable does not mean it is automatically WP:DUE as part of this sentence. WP:VNOT Cedar777 (talk) 21:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Mostly what Cedar said. I do realize this is almost a direct quote from the source. That's why I said
One academic book, however reliable, doesn't override several big WP:MEDORG sources that call EMDR an evidence-based treatment for PTSD
(emphasis added). Loki (talk) 01:23, 5 May 2023 (UTC)- Adding boldface to the same argument based on irrelevant sourcing doesn't make it more convincing. MrOllie (talk) 01:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- The problem is an inconsistent sense of the word evidence. Nothing unusual for there to be a lot of evidence for a pseudoscientific treatment. However, this phrase is talking about randomized controlled trials, which are a very specific type of evidence, and a type that is specifically less likely to support pseudoscience. So let's not apples and oranges what the preponderance of sources support. DolyaIskrina (talk) 02:33, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- To briefly devil's advocate, that's why it's unusual. (However, y'know, WP:EXTRAORDINARY). Loki (talk) 00:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- I might be missing your point. Let me try to make mine better. The fact that randomized controlled trials have been done, is indeed unusual for a pseudoscience. It doesn't matter what the total number of studies is. What matters is what do the better studies show? Is there a relationship between the quality of the studies and the apparent effect? Do only the low powered crappy studies show the best results? And then there's EMDR's questionable origins and lack of a plausible mechanism. The elephant in the room is the generally sorry evidence base for most all psychotherapy. It's a low bar that EMDR is ambiguously clearing. IMO it's been approved by various organizations because it's popular and has a lot of otherwise respectable practitioners and it's not obviously harmful. You know, like Psychoanalysis, another pseudoscience. DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:01, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- My devil's advocated point is more or less the same as what you just said: the source says "unusual for a pseudoscience" because it's unusual for a pseudoscience to be supported by randomized controlled trials, seeing as randomized controlled trials are usually the gold standard for determining whether a treatment is effective.
- But breaking out of devil's advocate mode, that triggers WP:EXTRAORDINARY: it's quite an extraordinary claim to say that a pseudoscience is supported by randomized controlled trials (or to put it another way, that something supported by randomized controlled trials is a pseudoscience), so we'd need more than just the one source that says it to say that.
- (Also, big medical organizations don't in fact endorse psychoanalysis as treatment for anything, as far as I'm aware.) Loki (talk) 04:30, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- It's not really "supported" by RCTs, since the RCTs were all of shit quality, as we say. Loki is proposing some kind of convoluted synthesis which is unfathomable. Just reflect the high-quality source; it's not hard. Bon courage (talk) 05:54, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- The highest quality sources are the WP:MEDORG sources which are also the sources which call EMDR "evidence-based". Loki (talk) 06:36, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- Not doing this dumb argument again. WP:STICKTOSOURCE. Bon courage (talk) 06:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- useful more current (9/22) article
- "Over the past decade, a seemingly unconventional treatment has wedged its way into mainstream therapy."
- https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/19/well/emdr-therapy.html
- .
- the attempted pseudoscience insertions here, based on 1 old ref, damage the article's credibility and are out of date. things have moved on. 5.66.63.86 (talk) 09:00, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- Not doing this dumb argument again. WP:STICKTOSOURCE. Bon courage (talk) 06:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- The highest quality sources are the WP:MEDORG sources which are also the sources which call EMDR "evidence-based". Loki (talk) 06:36, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- It's not really "supported" by RCTs, since the RCTs were all of shit quality, as we say. Loki is proposing some kind of convoluted synthesis which is unfathomable. Just reflect the high-quality source; it's not hard. Bon courage (talk) 05:54, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- I might be missing your point. Let me try to make mine better. The fact that randomized controlled trials have been done, is indeed unusual for a pseudoscience. It doesn't matter what the total number of studies is. What matters is what do the better studies show? Is there a relationship between the quality of the studies and the apparent effect? Do only the low powered crappy studies show the best results? And then there's EMDR's questionable origins and lack of a plausible mechanism. The elephant in the room is the generally sorry evidence base for most all psychotherapy. It's a low bar that EMDR is ambiguously clearing. IMO it's been approved by various organizations because it's popular and has a lot of otherwise respectable practitioners and it's not obviously harmful. You know, like Psychoanalysis, another pseudoscience. DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:01, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- To briefly devil's advocate, that's why it's unusual. (However, y'know, WP:EXTRAORDINARY). Loki (talk) 00:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- The problem is an inconsistent sense of the word evidence. Nothing unusual for there to be a lot of evidence for a pseudoscientific treatment. However, this phrase is talking about randomized controlled trials, which are a very specific type of evidence, and a type that is specifically less likely to support pseudoscience. So let's not apples and oranges what the preponderance of sources support. DolyaIskrina (talk) 02:33, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Adding boldface to the same argument based on irrelevant sourcing doesn't make it more convincing. MrOllie (talk) 01:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Mostly what Cedar said. I do realize this is almost a direct quote from the source. That's why I said
off topic
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::::::::::::Steaming your vagina is even more popular.[1] Doesn't make it a good idea. Bon courage (talk) 09:07, 6 May 2023 (UTC) |
- The topic of this thread is the sentence intro "Unusually for a pseudoscience" when reflecting that sources support the fact that the subject has been subject to RCTs. There is no dispute that the subject, EMDR, has in fact been subject to RCTs. That part of the sentence is universally agreed upon and is DUE. It's the intro that several editors have issues with. The intro is contested and there is no consensus that it be included. WP:ONUS
- Again, pseudoscience is clearly discussed in multiple locations in the article. It does not need to be included yet again in this sentence. Cedar777 (talk) 09:55, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- It does. Can’t cherrypick one factoid out of an observation. Bon courage (talk) 09:57, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- Collins dictionary defines pseudoscience as "a discipline or approach that pretends to be or has a close resemblance to science."
- EMDR practitioners do not claim a science for EMDR. Thus it is not a pseudoscience.
- It is just something that empirically works for some people (and thus is recommended by WHO, NICE etc).
- works for some people. 5.66.63.86 (talk) 10:56, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- EMDR practitioners absolutely claim it's science, but that also is not our bar for what counts. We go with what the sources say. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 15:43, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- IP 5.66.63.86, I'm afraid you are simply mistaken. Francine Shapiro, the founder, did publish her research in 1989 in the Journal of Traumatic Stress and present it as science. A number of people took issue with it, in particular Richard McNally. McNally was a vocal critic of EMDR for many years but he did revise his assessment after 2017 or so. A number of RCTs have been conducted and they have continued into the 2020s. According to the US Veterans Administration: "Since the early 1990s, there have been over 20 total randomized controlled trials (RCTs) of EMDR with adults, with more in progress."[2] The best quality WP:MEDRS sources don't have universal agreement about EMDR. The language and source we are discussing in this thread is from 2015. There have been additional RCTs that have taken place since then. We need to be carful with WP:DUEWEIGHT. Cedar777 (talk) 22:17, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- WP:EXTRAORDINARY as an argument doesn't do much here, given that the source we're using is actually extremely high on the quality ladder.It is an expert-authored (Lilienfeld, Lynn, Gambrill, Herbert, Gaudiano, Lohr, Mann, Rosen, Gist, Barden, Tavris, McNally, Mercer, Loftus), expert-edited (Thyer and Pignotti), topic-relevant (has more than a dozen pages dedicated to EMDR) academic review monograph published by a very high impact publishing house (Springer). It doesn't get much better than that. Then we also have sources like these to help back it up: [3][4][5][6] Each of these emphasizes that EMDR, while not an obvious pseudoscience at first glance, still meets many of its criteria, despite the many studies conducted on it, due to the poor design of such studies. That's what we say here, ergo: easily satisfies ECREE. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 15:48, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry to extend this tangent, I won't comment beyond this, but the evidence for Psychoanalysis looks very similar to EMDR and in 2010 the APA called psychoanalysis "empirically validated"[1] DolyaIskrina (talk) 17:12, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
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- Commenting here to say that earlier today I edited the opening of that sentence out (admittedly without looking at the talk page first, as it seemed pretty unambiguously mistaken to me at the time), though my edit has since been reverted. The reason why I did so is not because of the arguments mentioned here so far, but because the claim that most pseudosciences haven't had RCTs (which is the context of the phrase being debated) is very questionable, verging on false. As mentioned in my edit notes, well-known pseudoscientific fields (such as parapsychology, homeopathy, and even dowsing!) have been subject to many RCTs! These randomized controlled studies usually find the pseudoscience not to be effective, of course, but that does not alter the fact that it is simply not that unusual for scientists to conduct RCTs on a pseudoscientific field. This should be obvious; after all, a field is usually only established as pseudoscientific after scientists have looked into it and discarded the relevant hypotheses!
- In my opinion, we should state that RCTs have been conducted, because that is both true, citable, and (probably) notable, but we should not claim that the mere fact that this is the case is "unusual for a pseudoscience". This is all outside of the ongoing debate as to whether the subject is actually pseudoscientific or not; my objection to the statement (as it stands) holds regardless of how that debate plays out.
- Yitz (talk) 03:15, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- I went to the source assuming that it said something like "positive RCTs", but y'know, you're right. It just says
What sets EMDR apart from most approaches considered to be pseudoscientific is that a number of RCTs have been conducted on EMDR, leading it to be listed as an empirically supported treatment for PTSD by the Division 12 of the American Psychological Association, because it meets that group’s criteria of having at least two randomized controlled studies with positive results. Nevertheless...
- It definitely implies that it means positive RCTs, but it doesn't say that. Loki (talk) 03:59, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- Unless anyone has any further objections, I'm going to go ahead and revert the reversion on my prior edit. If that's not okay for any reason, please let me know. I'm also going to do some more research on this subject in general, as I'm getting the sense (from both the edit history and talk page) that the way the article is currently written may not reflect the general consensus. Additionally, I mentioned this article to a liscensed therapisty yesterday, who claimed that the page is quite outdated and that the mainstream consensus in her field is currently leaning in favor of EMDR. Are there any "must-read" threads in the talk page archives (or elsewhere) I should peruse before editing further? Yitz (talk) 21:23, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- I went to the source assuming that it said something like "positive RCTs", but y'know, you're right. It just says
- @Yitzilitt The "general consensus" according to wikipedia's WP:MEDSCI is determined by secondary peer-reviewed journal articles published in expert-edited topic-relevant journals, and similar peer-reviewed books and monographs, not a single random therapist. Those articles state EMDR is helpful as a tool, but that it's "special sauce" e.g. eye movements are likely not independently efficacious when compared to similar therapies without such movements. AKA it is a purple hat therapy. If you want to make broad changes to the article, you should start an RFC, not just state you're going to start making changes. The "untestable hypothesis" is the claim put forward by multiple EMDR practitioners that the mechanism is different in several different studies, moving the goalposts, refusal to use proper control groups because of these "special mechanisms". E.g. that the eye movements in EMDR create a "special state" in which memories are rewritten. This is not testable with current technology. [7] — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 21:28, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Shibbolethink I am aware of how WP:MEDSCI works. Apologies if my wording was confusing; what I meant was simply that this encounter served as anecdotal evidence for my suspicion that something may be amiss here, and made me think that I should do more research. I mentioned it because in the past I've found that sharing some details of my thought process in the talk page has been helpful to others. (for example, getting people in touch with domain experts who may have more resources than me, or retracing how someone found a particular source, etc.). Yitz (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- Re
Are there any "must-read" threads in the talk page archives (or elsewhere)
Have a look at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_92#EMDR MrOllie (talk) 21:43, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- Re
- @Shibbolethink So just to be clear, the following three claims are all distinct:
- A) While EMDR is an effective treatment, the effectiveness is due primarily to the exposure-like parts and not the eye-movement parts.
- B) EMDR is a purple hat therapy, i.e. it's an ineffective treatment added to a treatment already known to be effective to create the impression of a new effective treatment.
- C) EMDR is pseudoscientific, i.e. it's a clearly bogus or unfalsifiable treatment that claims to be a scientific evidence-based treatment.
- Why are A and B distinct? Because being a treatment with exposure-like parts is not the same as being exposure + eye movements: it's possible that the exposure parts of EMDR and the exposure parts of CBT have clinically relevant differences despite operating on the same principle, and the sources appear to differ on this point. We do know there are some differences (for instance, traditional CBT focuses more on IRL exposure while EMDR focuses more on imaginal exposure) but it's not really clear what the clinical relevance of these differences are.
- I'm making this point because we see a lot of A in the sources from highly respected sources even now. But the amount of B and C decreases the more modern the source gets, and conversely the more modern sources contain more explicit contradictions of C and sometimes even B. Loki (talk) 15:40, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
- Once knowledge is settled it doesn't need renewing. Your assertion about "explicit contradictions" is false (if you mean in RS, otherwise why raise it?). Bon courage (talk) 15:55, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
it's possible that the exposure parts of EMDR and the exposure parts of CBT have clinically relevant differences despite operating on the same principle, and the sources appear to differ on this point
I know of no reliable non-EMDR sources which assert this. Literally none. Do you have quotes? Classical exposure therapy does not focus "more on IRL exposure", it includes exposure through thought and visualization. CBT is not exposure therapy. E.g. [8] Exposure therapy is often used in tandem with CBT but they are distinct. A and B are roughly equivalent, B is a further explanation of A. C often follows from A and B, and is described as following from A and B in our most reliable sources. None of this is a good reason to get rid of well-sourced content. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 16:34, 13 May 2023 (UTC)- The example that comes to my head immediately is that a bunch of the meta-analyses say that EMDR is often more accepted by patients (i.e. has a lower dropout rate) than traditional CBT.
- But furthermore, many sources treat A and B as clearly distinct. So for instance the Australian medical authority calls EMDR highly evidence-based, and also says that it's very similar to exposure. So does Bessel van der Kolk, who outright calls EMDR a form of exposure therapy, and also endorses it highly. Neither of these sources call EMDR a purple hat therapy, and while this is admittedly conjecture, I think it's very clear that neither of these sources would call EMDR a purple hat therapy.
- And that that's not because they think the eye movements are particularly effective, because it's reasonably clear that they don't. Both of them endorse EMDR as a form of exposure therapy. Loki (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- None of those sources actually address the concept of EMDR as incorporating evidence-based practices and then adding non-evidence based ones on top of it, as in a purple hat therapy. To say in article text that they support that EMDR is not a purple hat therapy, or to use those to remove the purple hat therapy content, would be WP:SYNTH, as they do not actually address that claim. That appears to be your interpretation. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 17:49, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- Shibbolethink is right (as usual). As Samuel L Jackson once said, 'The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. When a source is silent on an issue that cannot be taken to mean they agree with your position. MrOllie (talk) 17:57, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- None of those sources actually address the concept of EMDR as incorporating evidence-based practices and then adding non-evidence based ones on top of it, as in a purple hat therapy. To say in article text that they support that EMDR is not a purple hat therapy, or to use those to remove the purple hat therapy content, would be WP:SYNTH, as they do not actually address that claim. That appears to be your interpretation. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 17:49, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Shibbolethink I am aware of how WP:MEDSCI works. Apologies if my wording was confusing; what I meant was simply that this encounter served as anecdotal evidence for my suspicion that something may be amiss here, and made me think that I should do more research. I mentioned it because in the past I've found that sharing some details of my thought process in the talk page has been helpful to others. (for example, getting people in touch with domain experts who may have more resources than me, or retracing how someone found a particular source, etc.). Yitz (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- I strongly agree with removing this. Unambiguously calling EMDR "a pseudoscience" is a strong and controversial position on what is clearly a subject of much current debate in the scientific community, and therefore a violation of WP:NPOV. From WP:FRINGE/QS: "Articles about hypotheses that have a substantial following but which critics describe as pseudoscience, may note those critics' views; however, such hypotheses should not be described as unambiguously pseudoscientific if a reasonable amount of academic debate still exists." Nowhere else in the article is the pseudoscience claim stated without qualification. Even the cited source does not call EMDR a pseudoscience, but rather an "approach... considered to be pseudoscientific." Paraphrasing that to an unambiguous claim that EMDR is a pseudoscience is absolutely unverified and non-neutral. GreatBigCircles (talk) 18:24, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- There is no debate about pseudoscience. Follow the sources. Bon courage (talk) 19:08, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- I am following the sources:
There’s some controversy surrounding why EMDR works. The creator of EMDR, Dr. Francine Shapiro, later developed a working theory about how your brain stores memories after accidentally discovering the eye movement technique she later used to create this therapy technique. However, that controversy doesn’t extend to whether or not EMDR does work. Dozens of controlled trials and research studies have analyzed EMDR and shown that it’s effective.
— "EMDR Therapy: What It Is, Procedure & Effectiveness". Cleveland Clinic.Today, clinicians generally consider E.M.D.R. an effective treatment for trauma.... But scientists are debating whether E.M.D.R. is more effective than other trauma treatment methods.
— Blum, Dani; Park, Sophie (2022-09-19). "'One Foot in the Present, One Foot in the Past:' Understanding E.M.D.R." The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331.Eye-movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) has been widely supported in the literature for its effectiveness in treating Post-traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and a variety of other diagnoses and symptoms. The variable findings regarding whether its effects are for reasons unique to this treatment, however, have become the focus of extensive discussion and debate.
— Sikes, Charlotte & Sikes, Victoria. (2003). EMDR: Why the controversy?. Traumatology. 9. 169-182. 10.1528/trau.9.3.169.22270.
GreatBigCircles (talk) 17:26, 30 May 2023 (UTC)EMDR appears to be a safe therapy, with no negative side effects. Still, despite its increasing use, mental health practitioners debate EMDR's effectiveness. Critics note that most EMDR studies have involved only small numbers of participants. Other researchers, though, have shown the treatment's effectiveness in published reports that consolidated data from several studies.
— "EMDR: Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing". WebMD.- And? None of this is about pseudoscience. It's effective because of the basis it co-opts. Doesn't stop it being a pseudoscience. This has been discussed ad nauseam now at multiple noticeboards. Bon courage (talk) 17:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- this article is a disaster for wikipedia.
- 2 people insist on inserting "Unusually for a pseudoscience, " out of context into a section on effectiveness. 5.66.63.86 (talk) 18:47, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- The context is that it directly follows the wording of the source. It would be misrepresenting the source to include only half the sentence. MrOllie (talk) 20:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- As I pointed out in my original comment, it is the phrase in question that is misrepresenting the source:
Even the cited source does not call EMDR a pseudoscience, but rather an "approach... considered to be pseudoscientific."
GreatBigCircles (talk) 20:33, 30 May 2023 (UTC)- It is in a chapter titled
Pseudoscience in Treating Adults Who Experienced Trauma
. A couple quotes:Another way in which EMDR qualifies as a pseudoscience...
... EMDR has been said to use social influence strategies that are consistent with those used by other forms of pseudoscience
MrOllie (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2023 (UTC)- Very well, thank you for the additional quotes; I concede that the original source is not misrepresented. However, as has been pointed out above, one source against a mountain of scientific evidence does not warrant such a biased treatment in this article. GreatBigCircles (talk) 21:11, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- There isn't a 'mountain of scientific evidence'. Please read prior discussion thoroughly. There is a 'mountain of scientific evidence' that exposure therapy works. That does not equate to evidence that EMDR's additions make it any better than other forms of exposure therapy. MrOllie (talk) 21:16, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Very well, thank you for the additional quotes; I concede that the original source is not misrepresented. However, as has been pointed out above, one source against a mountain of scientific evidence does not warrant such a biased treatment in this article. GreatBigCircles (talk) 21:11, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- It is in a chapter titled
- As I pointed out in my original comment, it is the phrase in question that is misrepresenting the source:
- The context is that it directly follows the wording of the source. It would be misrepresenting the source to include only half the sentence. MrOllie (talk) 20:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- And? None of this is about pseudoscience. It's effective because of the basis it co-opts. Doesn't stop it being a pseudoscience. This has been discussed ad nauseam now at multiple noticeboards. Bon courage (talk) 17:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- There is clearly no consensus here (nor in the scientific community). The disputed claim should be removed until a consensus is reached.
- There is no debate about pseudoscience. Follow the sources. Bon courage (talk) 19:08, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm genuinely confused and curious about why a couple of active editors seem to be so attached to ensuring that alternative viewpoints don't get represented in this article. What is it you're worried about? That someone will consider EMDR a serious treatment, as countless professionals do? That they'll be hoodwinked by some charlatan who takes their money and... administers a treatment that is well established as safe and just as effective as any other treatment, but based on some non-scientific theories? From the outside, it really looks like you're being reactionary, unilaterally blocking other people's good faith efforts to improve the neutrality of this article in order to avoid lending any credibility to something you see as contemptible. I don't want to assume that, though, which is why I would love to know what value you're actually trying to protect. I imagine it's one we share.
- EDIT: In the struck text above, I was attempting to find shared values as a first step toward compromise, but I got some feedback that it might have been interpreted as a personal attack. I can see how it might have come across that way, and I apologize. I'm leaving it struck out because I'm not sure of the correct protocol for editing a message that's been responded to. GreatBigCircles (talk) 22:06, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- @GreatBigCircles: I quote here from WP:PA: "Comment on content, not on the contributor(s)." JoJo Anthrax (talk) 22:18, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- The sources say it (probably) works; the sources say it's pseudoscience. Wikipedia reflects those sources. Job done. GreatBigCircles seems to think that one lot of sources "cancel out" others. This is both WP:OR and fallacious reasoning (relatedly, see Purple hat therapy), which manifests as WP:PROFRINGE. The PAs on top do not help - this topic has already been aired an WP:ANI (where incidentally, it was said our article is being too coy about the pseudoscience). Bon courage (talk) 03:36, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- It seems you've misunderstood my intention; I apologize if I wasn't clear. I have no interest in favoring one set of sources over another. In fact, I believe that is exactly what the current wording is doing. Some reliable sources say pseudoscience, other reliable sources say science. Therefore, it is inappropriate to represent the view of only one set of sources as if that view were an undisputed fact. Both viewpoints need to be represented fairly and attributed to their respective sources. Again, From WP:FRINGE/QS: "Articles about hypotheses that have a substantial following but which critics describe as pseudoscience, may note those critics' views; however, such hypotheses should not be described as unambiguously pseudoscientific if a reasonable amount of academic debate still exists." GreatBigCircles (talk) 16:30, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- There is no debate over whether it's pseudoscience: it is. There's little debate over efficacy: it probably works. We say these things. Bon courage (talk) 16:39, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
other reliable sources say science
Be specific. Which sources? When we get into specifics those sources never seem to hold up - they're either unreliable or they are talking about something else. Also have a look at WP:FALSEBALANCE. We don't really do fox-style fair and balanced here. MrOllie (talk) 17:10, 31 May 2023 (UTC)- I have named and quoted several reliable sources multiple times. GreatBigCircles (talk) 21:59, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- No, you've named and quoted sources that are unreliable, about effectiveness rather than science/pseudoscience, or both at the same time. MrOllie (talk) 22:36, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- I have named and quoted several reliable sources multiple times. GreatBigCircles (talk) 21:59, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- It seems you've misunderstood my intention; I apologize if I wasn't clear. I have no interest in favoring one set of sources over another. In fact, I believe that is exactly what the current wording is doing. Some reliable sources say pseudoscience, other reliable sources say science. Therefore, it is inappropriate to represent the view of only one set of sources as if that view were an undisputed fact. Both viewpoints need to be represented fairly and attributed to their respective sources. Again, From WP:FRINGE/QS: "Articles about hypotheses that have a substantial following but which critics describe as pseudoscience, may note those critics' views; however, such hypotheses should not be described as unambiguously pseudoscientific if a reasonable amount of academic debate still exists." GreatBigCircles (talk) 16:30, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- I would like to salute @MrOllie for the first actually constructive edit I've seen in this debate: removing the whole sentence. 9 days later, that edit has not been challenged, and I think it's a great solution. Thank you! Shall we consider this topic resolved? GreatBigCircles (talk) 19:32, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Good enough compromise for me. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 19:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- P.S. To be clear, I'm referring to the debate over the phrase "Unusually for a pseudoscience" specifically. The NPOV dispute stands. GreatBigCircles (talk) 19:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- What else about that dispute stands? — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 19:41, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- EDIT: In the struck text above, I was attempting to find shared values as a first step toward compromise, but I got some feedback that it might have been interpreted as a personal attack. I can see how it might have come across that way, and I apologize. I'm leaving it struck out because I'm not sure of the correct protocol for editing a message that's been responded to. GreatBigCircles (talk) 22:06, 30 May 2023 (UTC)