Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Toriel
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- Toriel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Reception for the subject shows no notability, in fact it could be more seen as reception for the game itself. Doing a WP:BEFORE shows that's the case across the board: any discussion is strictly in the context of the game and its story, and not a proper examination or discussion of the character. While there's some discussion about a possible character list, I feel what's here is fine to redirect to the parent game for now, and any usable reception cited in it if workable. Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Video games. Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Creator keep Standalone notable character, passes GNG. Kill Screen has 4 paragraphs discussing Toriel as part of an article about video game moms. The Greatest Stories Ever Played: Video Games and the Evolution of Storytelling has multiple pages discussing Toriel and how the possibility of killing her is given more impact due to the preceding events. The Game Designer's Playbook p.58-59 also has several paragraphs talking about how she is a good tutorial that sets up herself as a boss. Ethics at Play in Undertale, a paper with 11 citations, has numerous pages discussing Toriel starting at page 2. I think even ignoring all the other sources, these prove that it does not need to be merged, though there are definitely many other book mentions due to her boss fight's prominence as one of Undertale's most well-known moments. Her article is not the most well developed at the moment, but WP:SURMOUNTABLE and WP:NODEADLINE. AfD is not the right place for a reckoning for any notable character below a certain standard. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:06, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- But you yourself are pointing out the very observation I made: the sources focus on how it acts as a tutorial for the game itself and the significance in that context. The slight outlier is Kill Screen, but even there it's framed in the context of how the game subverts your expectations and primarily relays what we already learn during that sequence. The rest can be used just as easily for the game and don't define her importance as a character *outside* of that game itself, or any study of her character or design. The article could just as easily be written "Undertale tutorial" and achieve the same results, and express just as little notability separate of the game itself.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:20, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Toriel IS the tutorial. It's in the name. Unlike most games, in Undertale it's intrinsically linked to a character, where she is directly giving the protagonist advice on how to play, framed diegetically within the game's universe. I would not agree that it's only about "Undertale tutorial" due to how completely the character encompasses the tutorial segment. For the entire Ruins (i.e. tutorial) part you are mostly talking to her, and she disappears for most of the rest of the game. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:39, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'm well aware of that. But you wrote this about the character herself: how's she important or discussed outside of that Zx?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Toriel IS the tutorial. It's in the name. Unlike most games, in Undertale it's intrinsically linked to a character, where she is directly giving the protagonist advice on how to play, framed diegetically within the game's universe. I would not agree that it's only about "Undertale tutorial" due to how completely the character encompasses the tutorial segment. For the entire Ruins (i.e. tutorial) part you are mostly talking to her, and she disappears for most of the rest of the game. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:39, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- But you yourself are pointing out the very observation I made: the sources focus on how it acts as a tutorial for the game itself and the significance in that context. The slight outlier is Kill Screen, but even there it's framed in the context of how the game subverts your expectations and primarily relays what we already learn during that sequence. The rest can be used just as easily for the game and don't define her importance as a character *outside* of that game itself, or any study of her character or design. The article could just as easily be written "Undertale tutorial" and achieve the same results, and express just as little notability separate of the game itself.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:20, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- redirect to undertale. Tunni327 (talk) 11:34, 18 July 2023 (UTC)