Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment/Archive 123
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Amendment request: Iranian politics (November 2022)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Stefka Bulgaria at 09:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Stefka Bulgaria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- Appeal of topic ban
Statement by Stefka Bulgaria
I'm not familiar with these appeals; sorry if I didn't fill this correctly. It's been a year since I was topic-banned from editing articles relating to Iranian politics. My edits in other areas (since I was topic-banned) have been constructive, and I've had a good chance to reflect and learn from the issues I had with other editors back then. With everything that's been happening in Iran these last weeks, I think I could be a useful contributor in this area once again. Also, editors I had issues prior to being topic-banned have mostly been topic-banned themselves or blocked for socking, so I don't believe that I would have problems working collaboratively in this area again. Anyways, thank you for your consideration.
- Addressing comments below, last year's experience had an effect on my desire to participate in other talk/pages as a whole (and it still does); which is why I've been mainly reviewing new pages. I'm aware that if I were allowed to participate in Iranian-politics again, a misstep of any kind on my behalf would likely lead to me being indef'ed from this area. This request is for making occasional corrections in this area; nothing more. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:42, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Thryduulf (Iranian politics)
They were topic banned because they engaged in bludgeoning, stonewalling, and degrading of discussions.
and filed verbose RfCs in an attempt to railroad preferred changes
. They've done none of that since the topic ban was imposed, but they've done almost nothing else in talk spaces either. Since the case closed they've only made 9 edits to the talk: namespace that were not just page moves or wikiproject tagging (and one of them was a copyedit to their own comment) and 0 edits to the Wikipedia talk:, Template talk:, Category talk: and File talk: namespaces. Almost all their edits in user talk: have been speedy deletion notices (most of their work has been new page patrolling). Their four edits to Draft talk: came today and all are related to moving their personal sandbox to draftspace. Thryduulf (talk) 18:09, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Statement by HistoryofIran
Considering the majority of Stefka Bulgaria's edits were in this topic, I don't find it surprising that their editing activity has decreased. It's hard to find another niche. The Iranian Politics area is a cesspool which suffers from POV editing (including dirty tactics such as WP:GAMING), and a lack of monitoring admins (I don't blame them), which makes it a lot more difficult to adhere to our guidelines (which is mainly why I left that area). While Stefka Bulgaria's hands may not be completely clean (then again, whose are?), I think they did a lot more good in that area than many others, and thus deserves another chance. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Iranian politics: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Iranian politics: Arbitrator views and discussion
- I find myself somewhat on the fence. On the one hand, the issues that led to the levied sanctions have not been repeated in other venues. On the other hand, as Thryduulf mentions, there have not really been that many edits or "opportunities" (for lack of a better word) for that behaviour to show. It makes me think of an unsuccessful RfA candidate who then spends the next twelve months carefully avoiding anything that could be seen as controversial in an attempt at a second successful bid for adminship. In the interest of good faith, I do not necessarily think this is what happened; when an editor goes from averaging about 2000 edits per year to less than a tenth of that it does demonstrate that the topic area in question certainly was their primary focus, and they might not have found a new niche. I would like to hear from other editors, though. Primefac (talk) 08:42, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- I find myself largely agreeing with Primefac that we don't know if behavior has improved. I have noticed in several noticeboard discussions there still doesn't appear to be much admin work in this topic and so I worry if misbehavior were to happen again it would not be addressed. Barkeep49 (talk) 13:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- I think I am a decline here. Please demonstrate good work in the talk space in other areas and I expect an appeal would be successful. --Izno (talk) 21:17, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Izno here. Maxim(talk) 12:23, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- I am also inclined to decline. I think you have some good feedback here, and the signs are encouraging for your next appeal if you follow it. --BDD (talk) 21:00, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- I concur with Izno. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 09:08, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing the evidence of good collaboration, so I also decline. WormTT(talk) 13:54, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
Clarification request: Appeal restrictions as part of discretionary sanctions (November 2022)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by ToBeFree at 20:09, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- WP:AC/DS
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- ToBeFree (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
Enforcing administrators:
- Ymblanter (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Doug Weller (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (added 21:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC))
- RegentsPark (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (added 21:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC))
Affected users:
- Shirshore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Onengsevia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Stix1776 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Bookku (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- diff of notification of Ymblanter
- diff of notification of Doug Weller
- diff of notification of The Blade of the Northern Lights
- diff of notification of RegentsPark
- diff of notification of Shirshore
- diff of notification of Onengsevia
- diff of notification of Stix1776
- diff of notification of Bookku
Statement by ToBeFree
Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2022#Horn_of_Africa currently contains two entries saying "with an appeal possible in six months". There may be other, similar restrictions elsewhere; I didn't search for more. I'd like to know if such restrictions on appeals are compatible with the WP:AC/DS procedures. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:09, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- If it had been a single entry, I'd have asked the administrator who has placed it; I was looking at multiple entries and wanted to avoid starting multiple individual discussions with possibly varying results. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:46, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- I've looked for more from 2022 alone and feel confirmed in my decision to raise this centrally. I'm adding two parties for [1] and [2]. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Ymblanter
I absolutely can not recollect the case, but reading the AE discussion I closed I see that the proposal was indeed "TB which can be appealed in 6 months". I guess what I meant was that the TB is best appealed after 6 months and has very little chances to lead to a successful appeal before that, but I see indeed that this is not what I logged. My apologies.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:29, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- May I please also notice that TBF did not attempt to discuss the issue with me prior to filing this request. Ymblanter (talk) 20:35, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Doug Weller
Apologies. Of course we shouldn't deny the right of appeal at any time. I thought I'd seen this before and hadn't considered the implications. Doug Weller talk 16:47, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- Mind you the editor I topic banned just blocked his page and blew through the TB. Doug Weller talk 16:24, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by The Blade of the Northern Lights
Statement by RegentsPark
Agreed that an appeal can be filed immediately so, yes, mea culpa. In the particular case pointed to above, there was some discussion among the commenting admins about a timed t-ban, and that's part of the reason why the 6 months showed up there but I should have timed it to "exactly six months" to make it appealable. The current appeal system, imo, is a good one and I have no problems with it. Also, thanks to ToBeFree for bringing this up because, although on first glance this appears to be merely procedural, it is actually important for ensuring that our messaging be clear and not confusing. --RegentsPark (comment) 16:32, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Shirshore
Statement by Onengsevia
Statement by Stix1776
Statement by Bookku
Took note of this helpful discussion. After overwhelming discussions small time gap can be helpful break for users too for study and reflection about what all went wrong. Bookku (talk) 13:10, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Abecedare
My 2c: appeals by sanctioned editors fall essentially into two categories:
- "This sanction is unjustified"
- "This sanction may have been justified when placed but is no longer needed"
As an example of what I mean, see this DS I had placed with a note appended that said, I have kept the topic area of the ban narrow in the hope that you can learn to edit productively in other areas and even ask for this ban to be rescinded say 3 months from now.
I hope that the committee will not disallow that kind of "limit/encouragement" even while clarifying that I couldn't have (hypothetically) prohibited the editor from appealing the sanction to AN/AE/ARCA at any point they wished. Abecedare (talk) 15:33, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Vanamonde
I agree with my colleagues above and below that individual admins obviously cannot obviate all rights of appeal, and that's wording we need to be careful about. However, if memory serves, admins at AE sometimes decline an appeal and simultaneously prohibit AE appeals for a given period of time. And this actually makes sense to me, because it's not about obviating the right of appeal, but rather saying "any appeal at this venue will be unsuccessful for this period of time". Sometimes want to avoid repeated appeals, and the sanctioned user would always have the option of coming to ARCA (I'm assuming this is non-controversial; if diffs are needed, I can dig them up later). It seems logical to say that individual admins may also state that they will not personally consider appeals for a given period, with the user still having the option of appealing to AE, AN, or ARCA. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:50, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement from Harry
I came to make largely the same observation as Abecedare. I assume that these time limits on "appeals" were intended to mean that the sanction can be reviewed after that length of time, which is how I've used them in the past. They should not be taken, and I doubt the sanctioning admins intended them to be taken, as preventing the first kind of appeal, which asks other admins/the community/ArbCom to review the sanction because the sanctioned editor feels it is unjust. I would suggest using the term "review" or coming up with another ArbCom/WP policy neologism to distinguish appeals on the grounds that a sanction is no longer necessary. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:35, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by El_C
Hello. I'm not sure where Worm That Turned's quote of me is from, but it sounds about right. I believe the prevailing understanding is that outright moratoriums on appeals, as opposed to recommendations, are the sole domain of ArbCom (for WP:ACDS; the community for WP:GS). The argument that a consensus of AE admins on the WP:AE board, which obviously is a level higher than a single sanctioning admin, could also do that, is not something I have a strong opinion on. I have a vague recollection of a consensus of AE admins placing ~year'ish moratoriums on certain appellants who appeal, say, every 6 months over the span of years and years. And I've also a vague memory of it sticking without objections. But maybe it was a dream, whose to say?
But even at that event, if an admin were to remove such an appeal, from either AE or AN, the option to still appeal here at ARCA, as Barkeep49 notes below, nonetheless would remain open. At which point the Committee may be prompted to comment on AE board-derived moratoriums. But that has yet to happen as far as I'm able to recall, and overall has not been an issue of note. So this might mostly be theory. By contrast, I have a clear memory of ArbCom itself imposing moratoriums on appeals, I believe very recently even, though, I'm too lazy to look it up. BTW, a while back, Barkeep was wary of having too many AE appeals end up at ARCA, but to that I say: it's probably 80 percent AN, 20 percent AE, and negligible at ARCA, so I wouldn't really worry about it.
Anyway, I rambled for a while, but to reiterate as per the ping: take for example the last TBAN I imposed, currently being appealed (←live, permalink), to unanimous opposition I might add. Consider how I phrased it on that user's talk page: Now, while I strongly recommend you wait 6 months before appealing this sanction, you could technically do so immediately. But my sense is that it'll go about as well as your p-block appeals above [...]
(diff). So that's been my MO, overall. At the least, a single sanctioning admin doesn't have the authority to override the right of appeal. El_C 17:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Appeal restrictions as part of discretionary sanctions: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Appeal restrictions as part of discretionary sanctions: Arbitrator views and discussion
- I'd love to understand the intent of Ymblanter and Doug Weller. If the intent is to ban all appeals I would say that is outside of DS power - at minimum they could appeal to us at ARCA. If the intent is "the appeal can be handled without needing to meet the DS criteria by third parties", that feels in line with the changes proposed to DS. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:12, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- So in terms of resolving this particular issue is the answer a direction to clerks to strike those phrases and to otherwise proceed with the documentation of this consensus we've been doing for ARCAs? Barkeep49 (talk) 17:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- The appeals procedure described at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions § Appeals and modifications is immediately available upon imposition of a restriction under the DS procedure. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 20:20, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think an AE sanction can be made unappealable for a certain time period, particularly at the time it is imposed. That said, an appeal of a reasonably placed sanction will almost certainly fail within the first six months, which is true not only for AE actions, but also for community imposed sanctions and a lot of types of indefinite blocks. Maxim(talk) 12:22, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- While I agree that current policy prohibits a prohibition on appeals, I would venture that it would be valuable to prevent specious appeals. But perhaps that can be handled without an AE consensus or isn't a common issue from restrictions levied at AE. Anyway, I'd probably only allow such a use for appealing to AE, if it were desirable to change the policy on the point, allowing the other two locations to remain a location for appeal. (Need to review what the new version of the DS procedures says.) --Izno (talk) 19:54, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- I can see a moratorium on appeals if they become disruptive, but otherwise I agree with my colleagues above. Primefac (talk) 13:18, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- This sort of turned from El_C saying quite reasonably, that "if a user edited productively for 6 months, it would be likely that their appeal would be upheld" into "don't appeal for 6 months" and then it got repeated over and over. The former is fine, the latter isn't. Otherwise, I agree with my colleagues above. WormTT(talk) 13:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)