Talk:Expulsions and exoduses of Jews/Archive 1

Archive 1

Is there any good reason why the timeline is in reverse chronological order?

I can't see one... most timelines on Wikipedia go from the oldest events to the most recent. I'm going to be bold and reverse the direction of this one to put the earliest events are at the top, as it's surely easier to read that way. No judgement on the content of the timeline is intended. Terraxos 00:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I support you. Emmanuelm (talk) 14:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

This Timeline is Very Sparse

At last count, Jews have been expelled from over 80 countries/territories that are well documented. Therefore, the fact that this page only lists a dozen instances is a shame. Hardly any ethno-religious group has been expelled from as many places as Jews have, so I think that this page should be massively expanded to reflect this long history of Jews being expelled from virtually everywhere they have lived. --172.154.4.23 19:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Your help would be appreciated. Let's keep it WP:NPOV and consider registering. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, stop complaining, start editing. Emmanuelm (talk) 15:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Maabarah children.jpg

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Image removed to satisfy the WP copyright nazis. They even have a bot now! Emmanuelm (talk) 18:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Law of Return

The second paragraph in the lede now reads: After its establishment in 1948, the State of Israel adopted the 1950 Law of Return making Israel a home not only for the inhabitants of the State, but also for all members of the Jewish people everywhere. This law was intended to make Israel an ideal destination for voluntary Jewish repatriation. It seemed quite easy to separate the factual portions from the rest - After its establishment in 1948, the State of Israel adopted the 1950 Law of Return encouraging Jewish immigration. - but I was immediately reverted. Neither the tone nor content of what I removed complies with WP:NPOV. Is there some sort of in-between that does the job better? Jd2718 (talk) 06:13, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Is there a quote by someone involved that mentions the connection of the establishment of Israel to the many Jewish refuges at the time? Obviously people who voluntarily repatriate are not the same as refuges. Borock (talk) 11:32, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Circular reference

There was a sentence in the lede: "This law was intended to make Israel an ideal destination for voluntary Jewish repatriation" As voluntary Jewish repatriation was piped to Aliyah, the sense was "... to make Israel an ideal destination for immigration to Israel..." I left it at "encourage Jewish immigration..." Jd2718 (talk) 15:15, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

1933-1945, Misleading info about WW2 refugees to Palestine

Is there any reason why the article doesn't give numbers of Jewish refugees to Palestine from Europe during and after WW2? Does it have anything to do with the following phrase?

"The British Mandate of Palestine prohibited Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel"

Everybody knows that the British Mandate Palestine immigration restrictions were grossly violated and that hundreds of thousands Jews were clandestinely brought from Europe to Palestine despite the laws and the objections of the Palestinian people. Mentioning the immigration restriction but not saying that they were nevertheless violated, is misleading. It gives the impression that none of the Jewish WW2 refugees came to Palestine. Also, it is unfair to mention that Palestine had immigration restrictions (which were grossly violated) while the US (among many other countries) also had the same immigration restrictions and refused to accept any Jews above the quota. I know that maybe it doesn't help the zionist cause to reveal that most of pre 1948 Jews were unwanted illegal refugees, but how can you hide this kind of essential information on an encyclopedia?

One other thing that bothers me is that the article states that from 1948 on 600.000 Jewish "refugees" came to Israel from Middle Eastern, Muslim countries. It seems as if ALL of those immigrants were refugees and just barely escaped another holocaust in the Middle East. Undoubtedly there were tensions in the Middle East (Arab-Israeli war 1948) and Jews had a hard time but it is unfair to say that every single Jew that came to Israel from the Middle East was a refugee. Other regular immigration motivations like religious reasons, political ideology, poverty in country of origin, higher living standards in Israel, employment, education, business opportunities, free or cheap land or housing and general idealism might also have played a role for these "refugees". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.180.243 (talk) 22:11, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion for new reference 1933

Hello, I suggest, to add the following references after the 1933 persecution part:

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[...]1933-1945: The German Nazi persecution started with the Nazi boycott of Jewish businesses in 1933 , reached a first climax [...]

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--Martin397 (talk) 03:23, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

600,000 refugees

Galassi, please could you provide clear and reputable sourcing for the claim that ALL 600,000 were refugees? I have read in detail on this subject and can tell you that it is definitely not true, but I encourage you to research in detail to reach your own conclusion. But please can we bring the discussion here first instead of trying to force unsourced statements in to the article. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:14, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Khorasan

I can see why people get confused as to where the Ten Tribes were taken, and where they might subsequently have gone, when ill informed or misguided folks make assertions such as this. For one thing, Khorasan (any version you like) is way outside what's generally considered by historians to be even the maximal limits of the Neo-Assyrian Empire. For seconds, all the places identified in the Bible as the end destination of the exiles are in Northern Syria, east of the Euphrates (Halah, (K)habur (a tributary of the Euphrates and nothing to do with Afghanistan) and Gozan) or Western Iran (the cities of the Medes)

Mark76 (talk) 15:33, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Title

Shouldn't this page be titled Jewish Expulsions, or Expulsions of Jews? It's not about the refugees per se, it's about the circumstances which led to the refugees

Hartzl (talk) 17:11, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

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Ah, grammar

In 2010 an edit attempted to explain the disposition of the ten lost tribes of Israel. I have no opinion about that, but the edit text is confused. Somehow I have to think what was intended was

... ; but these tribes are not considered Jewish, rather Samaritan.

Unless the Samaritan thing is totally wrong, any problems with changing the text? Shenme (talk) 01:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

sources

To editor Göbbelschen: You must add sources to back your additions. Otherwise they will be removed. Zero^talk 18:11, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Expulsion of 1421

I've found a non-circular reliable source relating to the Jewish expulsion of 1421 from Austria, from the Museum of the Jewish People in Beit Hatfutsot.

Link: https://www.bh.org.il/jewish-spotlight/austria/middle-ages/persecution/

However, the current page is incorrect on several accounts: it lists the expulsion as being ordered by Archduke Albert II, while the Museum states that it was Archduke Albrecht V. As well, the Museum states the expulsion as beginning in 1420, rather than 1421. To locate the information on the page linked, use Ctrl-F and search "On 23 May 1420", without the quotations.

While I would like to correct this, I do not have the requisite 500 edits on my account. Is there anyone who does that can use this source to correct the error? LonelyProgrammer (talk) 02:52, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Edit request on Expulsion of 1421

The current listing for the 1421 expulsion of Jews uses a circular reference to a Wikipedia article with no inline citations. According to the source I found, it also is incorrect regarding the date and precise events.

I am requesting that the current blurb:

1421

   Jews expelled from the Duchy of Austria at the behest of Albert II of Germany.[15][circular reference]

be changed to

1420

   Duke Albrecht V orders the conversion to Christianity of all Jews within the Duchy of Austria. Those who refused were expelled.

This is the source that will need to be inserted: https://www.bh.org.il/jewish-spotlight/austria/middle-ages/persecution/

It is from Beit Hatfutsot. While Beit Hatfutsot does not have a ruling per the Wikipedia Reliable Sources list, it appears to be a highly regarded museum with respect to Jewish history.

Thanks for noticing! I used a book as a source instead of the web page you linked to as books are generally considered more authoritative sources.ImTheIP (talk) 12:39, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Jayjg you are not discussing the issue

Your gratuitous reversions of the comparison between UN aid to victims of Israel and refugees to Israel is irrelevant. Please stop your childish reversions until you have discussed the reason for this. Alberuni 04:48, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please get the history straight; the comparison was in there originally long before you discovered the article. You have been deleting it, and reverting your deletion. Please provide a rationale for doing so before deleting it again. Jayjg 04:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have provided a reason, you are just not listening, as usual. The comparison between UN aid to victims of Israel and refugees to Israel is irrelevant. What is its relevance to Jewish refugees? Alberuni 04:56, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The two population movements are corollaries, one set of refugees leaving Israel for mostly Arab countries, and another larger set of refugees leaving mostly Arab countries entering Israel (and some other countries). Their respective treatments are worth comparing. Jayjg 05:04, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

They are not corrolary cases. Israel confiscated the land of Palestinians for the use of Jewish refugees. Palestinians did not receive the Arab Jews' land when they immigrated to Israel. Palestinians remained refugees. Jews were absorbed by the new country built on Palestinian land. This line looks more like a petty complaint that the Jews did not get money from UNRWA aid "unlike the Palestinians" - as if the Palestinians got the better deal. Is there any use discussing issues with you? Alberuni 05:11, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You have highlighted it exactly; although they are corollaries, the two groups were treated quite differently. Jewish refugees from Arab countries were absorbed into the countries the arrived in (primarily Israel), whereas Arab refugees from Israel were refused absorption and instead turned into permanent political pawns by the Arab countries they arrived in and by the UNRWA. The article reflects these relevant facts. The Greco-Turkish War, the transfer of Sudeten Germans after World War II, and the transfer between Muslim and Hindu populations after the 1947 Partition of India might also make interesting reading. Jayjg 05:21, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is no reason, not even for your beloved Jewish state, why Palestinian refugees should have been displaced from their homeland and forced to be absorbed by Arab, European, American or other countries. The article does not reflect those facts. The article makes a swipe at UNRWA as if to say that Jewish refugees with a country to settle were more industrious than Palestinians who were kicked out of their country to make way for those very same Jews. It's your typical Zionist propaganda. Do you ever look in the mirror and question why you are the way you are? Alberuni 05:32, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Alberuni, you have just exceeded the RV limit of 3. Your attempts to turn any article concerning the Jews into an area of Israeli-Palestinian conflict or a discussion about Zionism (a political movement which you also misunderstand, as it is not an expletive) are duly noted. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 07:15, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

2500 year old communities

The fact that Jewish communities lived (thrived?) as Arabs in Arab countries for 2500 years UNTIL the (mostly European/American Zionists) established a Jewish state in Palestine should tell you something about the reasons why these Arab Jews suddenly became Jewish refugees. Alberuni 05:36, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Arabs/Muslims allowed the Jews to live in their midst as dhimmis only until the Jews expressed their wish for self-determination and sovereignty (as did many peoples at that time - including 22 huge Arab nation-states created in the territory of the former Ottoman Empire). Hope you are not trying to push the same cause for the Palestinian Arabs but deny it for the Jews? BTW, most of Sephardi Jews did not thrive and had to leave behind all their property when they were expelled. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:51, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Jews living in Arab countries were Arabs, just like their Christian and Muslim fellow citizens. Self-determination and sovereignty applies to nations, not religious groups. Many Arab Jews worked to liberate their countries from European colonialism. The Jews are not a nation unto themselves despite the Zionist propaganda. The Jews are a religious group. Zionism is religious nationalism, a political movenment. Judaism and Zionism are two different things. You claim that Sephardi Jews did not thrive for 2500 years living in Arab countries then in the same sentence you complain that they were forced to leave behind all their property when they were expelled. Which is it? If they did not thrive, why did they have so much property? Alberuni 14:15, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Jews are a people, not just a religion, and have always considered themselves as such (including Sepharadi and Edot haMizrach Jews). Some Jews in Arab lands were wealthy, but they accumulated this wealth when Arab countries were under English and French rule, when the dhimmi restrictions and persecutions were largely lifted. Jayjg 01:03, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sorry Alberuni, I think by writing "The Jews living in Arab countries were Arabs... The Jews are not a nation" you have just disqualified yourself from editing any articles on the subject. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 07:00, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No, he hasn't disqualified himself, he merely expressed an opinion on a talk page, which IS permissible. That being said, I consider Jews to be a nation with its own religion (and possibly room for more than one religion as well). Judaism, like other nations, has laws for citizenship and for naturalization, and the country of Israel (which is essentially run by Jewish people) does pay some tribute to those laws (although the Israeli government also has some rules of its own, caused by modern politics). The Jews in Arab countries are Arabs, yeah, and they are also Jews. I am Jewish, and I am American. It's a dual nationality. I fail to see Alberuni's point on this matter. Rickyrab 20:59, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Jews are very special people who have suffered alot because of anti-Semitism. That doesn't make Zionist crimes acceptable. Alberuni 01:05, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Um, ok. I'm not sure how that's relevant. Jayjg 02:01, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Your gratuitous reversions of comparison between UN aid to victims of Israel and refugees to Israel is irrelevant. Please stop your childish reversions until this is resolved. Alberuni 04:37, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please stop your off-topic digressions. This article is not about condemning the Jews of Israel for "crimes". Please restrict your commnents to specific edits for the specific article. This is not a discussion forum. RK 02:00, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Please stop telling me what to do. You are extremely arrogant and condescending. I was responding to your off-topic anti-Arab hasbara propaganda about Jewish wealth that was accumulated in Arab countries but that you credit to colonial powers. The point is that Jews, many of them wealthy, lived in Arab countries alongside their fellow Arabs until the Euro-American Zionist creation of the Jewish state on Palestinian land created a conflict between Arabs and Jews that made Arab Jews unwelcome in the land they lived on for 1000s of years. You want to have it both ways, always. YOU are the one who is not discussing your reverts. Why the gratuitous slap at the UN and UNRWA? Why compare Jewish refugees from Arab countries who were absorbed by Israel to Palestinian refugees who were dispossessed by the creation of Israel? It's totally irrelevant and petty. What makes you think you own these pages? Why are alternative, let alone opposing, points of view edited out? These are relevant questions for a Talk page. Alberuni 02:36, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yemen?

No references. Considering the country is at war with millions of refugees maybe they fled the war? I don't see any legislation expelling jews, is this to discredit the muslim world since other wise there were no muslim nations on the list? 142.184.162.223 (talk) 18:03, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

The section is referring to actions taken by the Houthi movement, but I can understand if one considers it confusing. Dunutubble (talk) 14:41, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

ГОНЕНИЯ НА ЕВРЕЕВ: 2 КРИПТЁНКА – ТРЕТИЙ ЖИД. Не можешь – не ври.

НЕЕВРЕЙСКАЯ ДЕНЕЖНАЯ РЕФОРМА. Говорят, на сайтах продажи пархатой недвижимости не дают размещать объявления с недорогим жильём. Так и есть: «Мы сторонники малых побед. Маленькая победа, тоже победа» - Катехизис еврея. Находятся пока, мрази, вне досягаемости. Занимаются подобными штучками евреи: «А мы ответим делами. А потом по примеру жидёнка, Агасферчика, смоемся. Деньги наши ноги». Переезды неевреев вынужденная необходимость. Цены на билеты устанавливаются и прыгают по желанию жидов. Например, последние билеты на самолёт стоимостью в 1.5 – 2 тыс. продают в аэропортах, но через компьютер, ИЗДАЛЕКА за 35-60 тыс. руб. Попались бы, сволочи… Жульничество, ведь, тоже убивает. Что делать, понятно. Сжигать эту жидовскую падаль заживо. Причём, обязательно родами. Последовательность не важна. Также может пригодиться поговорка: «Скажи мне, кто твой друг и я скажу, кто ты». Гонимыми всегда и везде были, и остаются сейчас не евреи, а неевреи. Видимых, легальных евреев гоняют криптоевреи. Обман. И вообще, с условными единицами пора кончать. Для неевреев всё должно быть бесплатно. Нужна артиллерийская установка, самолёт, крейсер или остров – бери. Вон, особняки с коттеджами, особенно на юге. Ни на что не годное дерьмо, конечно, но на переходный период могут сойти. Хоть, всю т.н. Африку.

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Жульничество. 1. «…почему Гитлер не любил евреев» - притворялся, подличал. Жид пархатый? Сбежал с деньгами в Лат. Америку. Свастика – Маген Давид. Там, где родился Хитлер, проживали одни евреи. 2. «Сталин, который возвращается сегодня». Джугашвили (с псевдонимом Сталин) переводится «сын еврея». Ленин тоже евреёзик. И т.д. Что за глобальный концерт? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1370:81A6:2FCC:3555:62A8:88A4:7906 (talk) 08:39, 29 March 2022 (UTC)