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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gadget850 (talk | contribs) at 14:07, 9 February 2007 (archive). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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Archive 1

Improvement

Since each rank has it's own page, this article duplicates those articles. Should we:

  • Delete this article, merging the content into the individual articles
  • Delete the individual articles, merging their content into this one
  • Delete the individual articles except for Eagle, merging their content into this one

--Gadget850 20:08, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that the individual ranks are generally not encyclopedic and do not deserve their own articles. (I think we can make an exception for the Eagle rank, because it's something of an institution with importance beyond the arcana of BSA rank advancement.) However, I don't think that there needs to be an article on BSA ranks, because the section at Boy Scouts of America is probably sufficient. Even this article could easily be moved to Wikisource. --Smack (talk) 02:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Split & merge

I propose that this article be split and merged into:

This will allow other information such as history and the like. --Gadget850 21:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that the individual ranks deserve their own articles. We could make an umbrella article for all seven, or maybe split out Eagle and combine the other six. --Smack (talk) 18:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm wavering both ways. Eagle Scout deserves it's own article. The rank links at the bottom of each individual page is pretty neat, but not necessarily a reason to keep them. I suppose we could tighten up the requirements (they are rather detailed for this article) and add a bit of history. I probably won't start anything major here for a week or so, as I will be traveling. I have a few minor things to add. --Gadget850 19:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

After perusing Long article layout, perhaps we should keep all the articles and lay it out like History of Brazil. Also see Article series --Gadget850 11:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Long article layout advises against splitting medium-length articles into stubs. I don't think that these articles (with the exception of Eagle) can ever be more than stubs. It's not helpful to look at them in isolation; they only make sense as part of the progression of rank advancement. As for the requirements, I copied them verbatim from my Boy Scout Handbook, several years ago, assuming that they have some value in that form. They should probably be moved to Wikisource, or deleted altogether for copyright reasons. An exegetic treatment would be helpful. --Smack (talk) 22:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I've moved the requirements to the separate articles, and have simplified them: there is no need for the level of detail. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Improvment 2

How about this:

Objection. Please revert your changes. I thought we had established above that the individual ranks do not deserve their own articles. --Smack (talk) 06:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Smack: See what I wrote in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Scouting/RulesStandards#Separate_articles on 26 Jan. No one objected (perhaps you didn't see it). I wrote what I perceived to be a workable solution. Having said that, you and Gadget850 have a fundamental difference of opinion on this particular issue and it can't be done both ways. For me, my main goal on the rank articles is that the Pack, Troop, Crew ones be set up the same so there is a consistency, unity, and cohesion to them. And oh, we've all forgotten to mention VARSITY TEAMS. I think their ranks work like troops, and there aren't many of them, but we should mention them, perhaps in the troop rank article. Rlevse 11:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Had not forgotten Varsity, just did not know much about the program until last night. Think I got it figured out. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The discussion for this issue has spread across several talk pages, so I seem to have missed something. Please, let's be COURTEOUS and FRIENDLY and work this out. I know I explained my reasoning somewhere, but let's look at it again. First, take a look at these sample articles:

Hopefully, you can see where these are going. Not just the bare requirements, but also a background and a history to put it into context. The whole series still needs work, but I think it's a good start. One article covering all this information is going to be quite long, even if split by division. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Where is the current parent article? (Rank requirements...)? and do we still want Pack/Troop/Crews to have separate parent articles or all in one?Rlevse 12:47, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
See the third note at the top of the list. I have only started a scratchpad version as of yet.
Topics to cover:
  • Purpose
  • Cub Scouts
  • Boy Scouts
    • Varsity Scouts (Teams??, rlevse added)
    • Order of the Arrow
  • Venturing
    • Sea Scouts
  • Religious awards
  • Honor awards for merit
  • Support of Scouting awards
  • Leadership and training awards
  • Honor awards for outstanding service
--Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I think "list of..." should be changed to "adv and rec..." I like the way you have the parent article sectioned. Then perhaps one article per level pack/troop/crew with a rank overview as you've started, with the ranks for each level detailed in the sub article (pack/troop/crew). This would break it up in smaller pieces but also keep each rank out of a separate article. Rlevse 15:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Most of the bullets will be converted to prose as this develops. What do you think of the infoboxes? I mostly like them, but don't want them to detract from the article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I love the info boxes. Perhaps you can see if you a small Cub/BSA/Venture logo will fit in them nicely.Rlevse 18:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the input- I had considered that. I might also try a small logo of each award just to see how it looks, but I don't want to overdo it.
Bah. My mistake. I got confused between several different Scout-related topics on several different pages. Or maybe it's really just this one topic, and I lost track of what was going on. I did see the proposal on RulesStandards, but I didn't notice that I disagree with it. --Smack (talk) 05:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
No worries. This topic did get spread out over a few pages. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


Improvement 3

As I get into the gestalt of the whole advancement program, I can see that as a whole, this is not going to work as one article. Here are some thoughts:

  • Move the new sections I wrote here and move them to the parent article.
For example, copyList of BSA rank requirements#Cub Scouts to Cub Scouts (Boy Scouts of America)
  • Take the separate rank articles and combine them into one (it's just going to be too long to fit in the parent article). Use the section as the lead-in. Take the requirements for each rank and really simplify them- get rid of the bullets.
For example, create Advancement in Cub Scouts (Boy Scouts of America), use the section from here as the lead, and combine Tiger through Webelos and Arrow of Light, and add the Academic and Sports Program.
  • Create main articles for each of the other award categories, and fold the sub-articles into it.
For example, create Service awards in the Boy Scouts of America. Fold the short DESA and Silver Buffalo articles into it.
  • We might just want a List of awards and recognition in the Boy Scouts of America to use as an overall view of things.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me you have a great grasp of this. I'll likely like what you come up with. Just my 2 cents.Rlevse 12:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I have read the above talk(s) and, while I think I may possibly almost nearly understand (not to be humble or anything), I want to check on something: We can have articles for specific ranks/awards as long as they are more than a skeleton-description? (I was specifically thinking of Venturing Silver, and was hoping to find some historical context for it as well.) —ScouterSig 15:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Move discussion

This isn't really a list anymore. I propose naming it Rank requirements (Boy Scouts of America) Rlevse 23:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

This was moved to Advancement and recognition in the Boy Scouts of America on 15 Mar.

Scholarships

There are scholarships from NESA too.Rlevse 12:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and probably OA as well. I'm not sure they belong here, but it's someplace to put them for now. I'm finding all sorts of awards I never heard of before. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

Coordination with other pages

Can someone please provide some advice - the Varsity and Venturing information on this page is also covered on Venturing (Boy_Scouts_of_America) and Varsity Scouts. I have tried to keep the information consistent across these pages, but it is definitely redundant AND it runs the risk of being edited on one article but not the other. How is a better way to do that? NThurston 18:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Put a msg on Gadget850's talk page. He knows more about this than the rest of us. Rlevse 19:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The only doable way is to add a comment at the beginning of each section noting that the other article should be updated. I've been meaning to add this to each section, but I'm in a time crunch for the next week or so (Venturing and Wood Badge staff). --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I can get something that will work. NThurston 22:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Attention tag

The lead needs expanding. Rlevse 13:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

OK now.Rlevse 17:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
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