Talk:Race and intelligence

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Putting the socks away. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:59, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
You reverted my edit on the article "race and intelligence", explaining it by implying that the edit was based on personal analysis. However, it is the scientific consensus that intelligence is influenced by genetics (hope we both agree on that, so that I don't have to provide citations, but can do if needed) on an individual level. It is then a direct logical implication that the mean level of intelligence in groups of individuals is influenced by genetics - it's just that this influence is smaller by a factor equal to the number of people in the groups (assuming natural intelligence is distributed normally). There is no personal analysis at all. In anticipation of a likely mention of WP:SYN, I will mention WP:SKY. We don't need a citation for the fact that, due to genetic mutations, there is natural variability in not only intelligence but every human trait - the only uncertainty that exists is in the variability of said trait. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 13:16, 19 June 2021 (UTC) The Race and intelligence article has been the subject of considerable controversy. It is currently subject to Discretionary sanctions, and accordingly, making a significant change to the first sentence of the lede without prior discussion is inadvisable. If you wish such a change to be agreed to, you will do best to discuss it on the article talk page, where other contributors will be aware of the discussion. Accordingly, beyond advising you to read the article itself and the article talk page archives, and to read WP:SYN and WP:SKY again more carefully, I'm not going to discuss the matter here. THat is what article talk pages are for. AndyTheGrump (talk) It's funny that you say that "making a significant change to the first sentence of the lede without prior discussion is inadvisable" given the sentence that I made changes to was added as a result of a discussion that I initiated. But okay, noted. Talk page it is. I'm a bit disappointed you didn't actually provide any reasons for why you felt reverting my edit was the best course of action, but I guess someone on the article's talk page will explain. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 15:40, 19 June 2021 (UTC) Andy did, in fact, provide an explanation for his revert. Your assertion to the contrary makes no sense, as the explanation is right there in his edit summary for everyone to read. As for the substance of your edit summary: You should read the FAQ on the article talk page, as it explains exactly why the OR justification you provided is wrong. Your comment about WP:SKY above indicates that you're likely not fully familiar with the subject of race and genetics. Fortunately, the FAQ I mentions provides a brief primer on that, enough info to show that your argument regarding WP:SKY is based on an inaccurate-but-common-among-the-laity belief about genetics and race. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:18, 19 June 2021 (UTC) @MjolnirPants: I'll have you know that I have read the entire FAQ, with all the sources provided in it, from start to finish. I can only assume that you either haven't done the same or have misinterpreted what I'm saying, as, if anything, some of the sources provided support my initial intuition, with none refuting it. Although having read such a large amount of text, I can't hope to find the exact citations, I do recall some of the sources saying something along the lines of "any plausible genetic differences in intelligence between populations are due to the random fluctuations in the intelligence of individuals, and are hence negligible", and "if there are genetic differences between populations, the direction of the mean difference could favor Africans or Europeans with equal likelihood". In fact, this intuition is not only not refuted/supported by these sources, it is also self-evidently true and implied from the clearly established consensus that intelligence on an individual level is influenced by genetics ─ and it would be such even if I was completely unfamiliar with the field of genetics. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2021 (UTC) I can only assume that you either haven't done the same MjolnirPants literally wrote the FAQ. Leijurv (talk) 03:27, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Here is a clear explanation as to why your "self-evidently true" supposition is false. It's from the Nature article "Heritability in the genomics era — concepts and misconceptions" (ref #2 under the Heritability of IQ section in the FAQ). In a list of "misconceptions regarding heritability" it lists as false the assumption that "Heritability is informative about the nature of between-group differences" and goes on to explain why in detail: This misconception comes in two forms, and in both cases height and IQ in human populations are good examples. The first misconception is that when the heritability is high, groups that differ greatly in the mean of the trait in question must do so because of genetic differences. The second misconception is that the observation of a shift in the mean of a character over time (when we can discount changes in gene frequencies) for a trait with high heritability is a paradox. For IQ, a large increase in the mean has been observed in numerous populations, and this phenomenon is called the Flynn effect, after its discoverer. The problem with this suggested paradox is that heritability should not be used to make predictions about mean changes in the population over time or about differences between groups, because in each individual calculation the heritability is defined for a particular population and says nothing about environments in other populations. White males born in the United States were the tallest in the world in the mid-19th century and about 9 cm taller than Dutch males. At the end of the 20th century, although the height of males in the United States had increased, many European countries had overtaken them and Dutch males are now approximately 5 cm taller than white US males, a trend that is likely to be environmental rather than genetic in origin. An open-access vrsion of the article is here. I hope that's informative. Generalrelative (talk) 03:34, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Doesn't mean that they read all of the sources cited in the FAQ from start to finish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk • contribs) 13:34, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Oooo, spooky goalposts, moving from one place to another! And new responses go to the bottom and need to be signed. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Comment about goalposts struck. I have read the entire FAQ, with all the sources provided in it, from start to finish and I can only assume that you either haven't done the same together show that that was part of the goalposts from the start. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Augh! I'm caught! I've never read a word of the FAQ. You got me. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:51, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Do people really not understand what I'm saying? None of what Generalrelative has cited has anything to do with the point that I'm making. I'll try to put it in different words. Let's say the variance in the genetically determined intelligence of a single person is $\sigma ^{2}$. From the definition of variance, it follows that the variance of a sample mean of a group of people is $\sigma ^{2}/n$, where n is the number of people in the group. Since this variance is non-zero, and since intelligence is a continuous (not discrete) quantity, it is then implied that the probability of two sample means ─ even if taken from the same parent population ─ of being exactly the same is zero. So it is in fact impossible for there not to be any genetic differences between any two groups of people. Once again, this conclusion is trivially true and follows directly from the assumption that intelligence is a continuous quantity. One doesn't need any knowledge in genetics to reach this conclusion. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 12:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC) I think we understand quite well what you're saying. You're saying that for statistical reasons between any two sets of people there will be a genetic difference in average intelligence. For example, let X be the set of people whose last names begin with the odd-numbered letters A,C,E,G,..., and let Y be the set of people whose last names begin with the even-numbered letters B,D,F,H,.... So, according to you, it must be the case that either the X people are genetically superior to the Y people in intelligence, or else the Y people are genetically superior to the X people in intelligence? NightHeron (talk) 13:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Terms like "genetically superior" are not very rigorous. In rigorous terms, the average innate/genetic intelligence of the X people is higher than that of the Y people, or vice versa. And that's not according to me ─ that's according to some very basic statistics. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:00, 20 June 2021 (UTC) And the fact that what you call "very basic statistics" leads to an absurd, obviously wrong conclusion when applied to NightHeron's example does not bother you? Maybe your understanding af basic statistics is wrong? This happens to people, you know. I think we should just keep using WP:RS instead of your WP:OR. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Given that I'm a statistician by profession, yeah, I clearly should book up on basic statistics. Would you be willing to share your immaculate statistical understanding with me? Maybe you can teach me how to, in cases where mathematically provable results contradict our intuition, claim that maths is wrong and that it's our intuition that's right? Is that the secret to statistics that has evaded me for so long? In all seriousness, I'd like to hear why you think my conclusion is "obviously wrong". It seems pretty intuitive. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:25, 20 June 2021 (UTC) The result was that the first letter of my last name is genetically connected to my intelligence. Now is the time to tell us what you actually mean by "genetic differences". Is it just the unavoidable statistical fluctuations? Essentially, "different numbers are different"? Measurements of the X and Y IQs yield slightly different numbers, but the difference gets tinier and tinier with increasing sample size? Then, yes, you are right! Everybody here agrees! Clap. Clap. Clap. Or do you mean "genetic differences based on a real, measureable, reproduceable effect with real-life consequences, well outside the white noise"? In that case, you will need more than trivially true statements. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:43, 20 June 2021 (UTC) The bottom line is that the statement "genetics does explain the intellectual differences between X and Y, and these differences are hence environmental in origin" is a complete falsity. As you said, everybody here agrees with this, right? So then why is this exact statement in the article, and the moment that I tried to change it to make it not trivially false, my edits got immediately reverted? I must be missing something major here. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Yes, you seem to have gotten the consensus position precisely backwards here. It is as geneticist / neuroscientist Kevin Mitchell says (quoted in the FAQ): "While genetic variation may help to explain why one person is more intelligent than another, there are unlikely to be stable and systematic genetic differences that make one population more intelligent than the next." Assuming that individual genetic differences in intelligence imply the existence of group-level genetic differences in intelligence is a fallacy, which was the point of the bit I quoted for you above. The FAQ cites several other RSs which state this explicitly, so if you've read them all already you should be familiar. Generalrelative (talk) 15:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Generalrelative: As much as like to keep my tone respectful, this is getting a little bit frustrating. Did you bother reading anything that I've written after your initial reply? Clearly I am not advocating that systematic genetic differences are likely. My argument is that random fluctuations in the mean level of intelligence mean that, in any two groups at any given time, the mean level of intelligence will necessarily be different. So, for example, the average genetic difference in IQ between Americans and Nigerians might be 0.001 now; in a couple of generation's time, it might be -0.002; and 200 years ago, it might have been 0.003. For a thousandth time, this statement is not a matter of personal opinion or consensus ─ it's a trivially true fact that is logically implicit from the assumption that genetics influences intelligence at an individual level (which we all agree it does). How can I make my point any clearer? Tell me? Which part of what I said is confusing or ambiguous? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:31, 20 June 2021 (UTC) If what you say is true, it tells us precisely nothing about any relationship between race and intelligence. It is a statement about statistical noise. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:38, 20 June 2021 (UTC) But it does make the statement "genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between racial groups, and observed differences are therefore environmental in origin" false. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:48, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Wikipedia articles are not an exercise in sophistry. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:54, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: No it does not. Just to unpack a bit: the scientific consensus is that even if such random fluctuations exist they are not detectable by any means that have yet been tried, and therefore they explain nothing (whether even minute fluctuations are likely to exist at all is a matter of controversy among geneticists, but there is strong consensus that current evidence gives no indication what they might be if they do exist). This means that the statement in question –– i.e. "the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between racial groups" –– is not a falsity as you claim but rather an accurate description of the case. The bit about "environmental in origin" is summarizing another part of the article's main body. Please refer to WP:NOTSYNTH and MOS:LEAD if you are curious about why these statements are fused into a single sentence in the lead. Generalrelative (talk) 16:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC) In other words, if we haven't detected something, that necessarily implies that this something has no explanatory power. Is this an accurate analysis of what you're saying here? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:59, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: You might think of it this way (leaving out lots of nuance and context for the sake of simplicity): 1) There is a statistically significant observed gap in average IQ test performance between e.g. Black and White Americans. 2) Even the most advanced genetic arguments advanced by racial hereditarians fail to show that White Americans are more likely to enjoy a genetic advantage in IQ than Black Americans; indeed, both groups are equally likely to enjoy such an advantage, if such an advantage does exist, based on all currently available information. [11] Some geneticists, notably David Kaiser, believe that small yet detectable differences in cognitive ability may be found in the future, but crucially even he makes clear that we have absolutely no clue which groups will be found to be genetically favored. [12] Those hereditarians who have claimed to detect a positive signal favoring White people have been roundly debunked on both theoretical and empirical grounds by genetics professionals. 3) Thus, if Black Americans are just as likely to be genetically favored in terms of IQ test performance as White Americans, genetic differences do not explain the observed difference in IQ test performance between these groups. And you don't have to take my word for it. Here's Ewan Birney et al.: "In reality for most traits, including IQ, it is not only unclear that genetic variation explains differences between populations, it is also unlikely." [13] And here's Stephen Ceci and Wendy Williams: "There is an emerging consensus about racial and gender equality in genetic determinants of intelligence; most researchers, including ourselves, agree that genes do not explain between-group differences." [14] 4) Note that this argument runs parallel to another, similar argument about the potential scale of such differences, which all genetics professionals agree must be very small if they do exist, i.e. much smaller than observed group-level differences in IQ test performance. Generalrelative (talk) 18:42, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Maxipups Mamsipupsovich, it's clear to me that you're not doing OR here. Instead, you're discussing an aspect of genetics from the standpoint of statistics and in doing so, missing some important considerations. Your reasoning is sound enough, but you're not following it through before you arrive at a conclusion. You're just working out the statistics and then completely ignoring all the genetics. The bottom line is that the statement "genetics does explain the intellectual differences between X and Y, and these differences are hence environmental in origin" is a complete falsity. Absolutely nothing you have argued here supports this claim, and there is no evidence which supports it, and quite a bit of evidence which (as I've already pointed out) directly contradicts it. My argument is that random fluctuations in the mean level of intelligence mean that, in any two groups at any given time, the mean level of intelligence will necessarily be different. We're all in agreement on that point. The problem is that this article is about the differences between racial groups, not the differences between any arbitrary group. We have to contrast the subject of this article with the expected delta between arbitrary groups in order to stay on topic. Nobody's arguing that the range of human intelligence is not caused by genetics. The research, as well as the consensus of both the scientific community and the Wikipedia community is that the differences between the delta of racial groups and the delta between arbitrary groups is not genetic. Also, for the record, I have, in fact, read and made sure I understood each and every reference used in that FAQ, as well as the large majority of sources used in this article, many of which I have purchased over the past 5 years in order to fully understand the subject. I first read this article believing some very different things about the subject than I now know to be true, and the FAQ is the direct result of the years-long deep dive I took into this. So your continual insistence that I don't understand the FAQ which, again, I wrote is not only a remarkably stupid line of argumentation, it's a violation of our behavioral guidelines to continue to insist that I must not know what I'm talking about if I disagree with you. I strongly advise you to drop it, because all it's accomplishing is reflecting poorly upon your attitude and understanding. Now, I've said my piece. I won't continue to argue with you. It's quite clear that you don't have consensus for your edits. You can accept that, or you can continue to litigate it, which will very quickly become disruptive. I advise you to do the former. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:19, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @MjolnirPants: I'll start off by saying that I appreciate your generally respectful tone. What I appreciate slightly less is your putting words in my mouth and claiming that I not only opined that you don't understand the FAQ, but insisted (!) on this ─ given I have never expressed such a sentiment to begin with (read carefully ─ I said that you either didn't study all the sources in the FAQ or misinterpreted what I was saying; it turns out it was the latter). But that's okay. Anyway, I'm still far from convinced. Since we're all in agreement that at least some (even if a minute amount) of the differences in IQ test performance are genetic, to me, this renders the phrase "observed differences [in IQ test performance] are therefore environmental in origin" at least partially untrue. These observed differences are predominantly or almost entirely environmental, but they can never be 100% such. Equally, genetics (random idiosyncratic genetic mutations) will always explain at least some tiny percentage of these differences. If I may, I'll explain why I'm so fussed about this seemingly insignificant detail. It is already a pretty popular opinion out in the public that, since Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, it can't at all be trusted and is very unreliable ─ it is especially popular among conservatives, whose views often conflict with the scientific consensus and are hence criticised on Wikipedia. The amount of public trust in science (at least among conservatives) is also low. People will routinely say stuff like "those scientists you speak of say nothing became something and exploded, how can you trust those idiots?". For people like that, a single notable case of bad logic is sufficient to sway them from a place of moderate trust in science and a reasonable degree of scepticism towards Wikipedia articles to complete devotion to conspiracy theories/pseudoscience and fanatical rejection of Wikipedia. They'll see the sentence in the lede that I keep referring to and think "wait, but that's literally impossible, those scientists will come up with anything to justify their liberal bias! If they can't even get basic logic right, how could I possibly trust them on matters that involve more complex logic?" ─ or they'll think the same and instead come to the conclusion that it's not the scientists who cannot be trusted but Wikipedia. There's every chance something like this might have already happened ─ likely many times over. I would not at all be surprised to learn that this single sentence has already created thousands of fanatical anti-Wikipediists or subscribers to the idea that IQ differences between populations are mostly genetic. That's why I think we need to be very careful with such strong statements as the one that I'm challenging. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:00, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Maxipups Mamsipupsovich, Your logic only works if the group genetic differences are large enough to be observed with an IQ test. If a given test is good to (for example) 3 significant figures, and the genetic difference is somewhere out in the 5th or 6th digit, then it would not contribute to the observed differences. MrOllie (talk) 02:10, 21 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Are you suggesting as an alternative wording like "Differences large enough to be measurable are entirely environmental in origin" or "Environmental factors explain the entirety of differences that are observable with IQ tests" or some such? Leijurv (talk) 02:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC) you [..] misinterpreted what I was saying is usually followed by a clarification of the obviously ambivalently worded statement that has been misinterpreted. I find your statement we're all in agreement that at least some (even if a minute amount) of the differences in IQ test performance are genetic confusing. The FAQ does not say it is just a minute amount, and Heritability of IQ says IQ differences between individuals have been shown to have a large hereditary component. But you keep omitting the crucial part of the sentence you claim to be false again and again. I highlighted it here: Extensive evidence has been published which indicates that observed differences in IQ test performance between racial groups are environmental in origin. (Unless you mean a different sentence. I cannot tell.) These observed differences are predominantly or almost entirely environmental, but they can never be 100% such Are you really saying the equivalent of "it is false that the earth is round, it is a geoid"? When people misunderstand what I say, I try to say it a different way. And, instead of providing a longish justification talking about the low trust idiots have in Wikipedia because it tells them things they do not want to believe (we already knew that, and there is no way to change that, except turning the idiots into half-idiots), you should rather say exactly what you want to change into what. For that purpose, it is very helpful to use exact quotes instead of paraphrasing. I looked up your reverted changes to the FAQ, but could not find any connection to what you are saying in this section. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Hob, I advice leaving this. This editor is clearly determined to ignore anything we say. There's a clear consensus here, no point in handing this fellow fresh sticks long after the horse is dead. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:05, 21 June 2021 (UTC) You are probably right. But at least I got a new variation on the dead horse thing out of it: "handing this fellow fresh sticks". --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC) "Fresh sticks! Get ya pipin' hot fresh sticks heeya!" ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:38, 21 June 2021 (UTC) @MPants at work: Nice passive aggression there, Mjolnir. It seems like my compliment of your respectful tone came too soon. I don't understand how I could possibly take this as an insult haha. I think it was a good explanation Yeah, clearly I'm determined to ignore everything you say. Because the only way that other people can disagree with you is if they're stubborn douchebags who will never change their minds about anything. Right. I'll just remind you that neither you nor Hob has presented a single coherent argument against my proposal beyond pedantry (like Hob's entire last comment) and unhelpful assumptions (like your accusation of my insisting on you not understanding the FAQ, despite me never having done so). Neither of you have said anything of substance on this thread that I could possibly listen to. The only user who has even attempted to point out flaws in my reasoning is Generalrelative (and even their point, while fair and one I haven't considered, does not adress the crux of my argument, which is that there is a possibility that observed differences in IQ between racial groups are explained in some small part by genetics ─ whether this possibility is certain or has an only 50% chance of being true). Given your suggestion that the horse that is this thread is dead, I am not going to reply to either them or you (or Hob, for that matter), but rest assured that I am willing to listen to anyone who makes a good point and am very happy to change my mind about anything. I still find the fact that even something as overtly obvious as the point that I'm making is being resisted here on Wikipedia a bit ridiculous and, frankly, quite worrying, but oh well. I'll take your advice, accept that controversial topics on Wikipedia will never stop being a problem, and move on. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:24, 21 June 2021 (UTC) I see you've decided to add to the list of WP:ASPERSIONS you've been throwing. I, personally, wouldn't take that route, but you go right ahead and see how that works out for you. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:27, 21 June 2021 (UTC) I, personally, wouldn't take that route *Cough* That's *cough* debatable *cough* to say the least *cough*. That's at least as many aspersions as I have ever cast on anyone here on Wikipedia in my one year of editing. I'm sure that if casting aspersions is really an issue, you're in more danger than I am. That said, if you've got any genuine suggestions as to how I can improve as an editor, I'm willing to listen. It would be silly of me not to, given you presumably know this place ─ and how things work around here ─ much better than I do. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 19:26, 21 June 2021 (UTC) lol That's hilarious. Here's a genuine suggestion: Accept that you're wrong. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:11, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Thanks, that's very helpful. I'm sure it's very genuine, too. Just what I have asked for. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 22:13, 21 June 2021 (UTC) References

FAQ edit

I made this edit on the FAQ page, as well as this one. Both edits got immediately reverted by user:NorthBySouthBaranof without explanation; naturally, I asked them for one on the talk page, but they haven't responded yet, and I thought I'd get a quicker response here. The first of my edits addresses the fact that the current version is slightly misleading, as it is written in such a way which is likely to mislead the reader into thinking that IQ is not a valid measure of any form of intelligence (especially by answering the question "doesn't IQ measure intelligence" with "not exactly"). It is generally agreed upon that this is not the case, and that IQ does actually measure some types of intelligence ─ just not all (as is actually explained by one of the sources provided in the FAQ). So my edit cleared up this confusion without changing the character of the answer, which conveys that IQ is not an all-encompassing measure of intelligence. The second edit replaced a dubious, America-centric example of Native Americans having the same features as Europeans (even though their phenotype is arguably more similar to that of East Asians) with a much clearer, more global example of North Indians, who actually came from the same Indo-European population as Europeans, so their connection to Europeans is unmistakable. Do people agree with NBSB's decision to revert both of these edits? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 12:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Your first edit was not an improvement over the earlier text, because how accurately or reliably IQ measures any aspect of intelligence is open to debate. As with other tests, performance on IQ tests depends on many factors other than what the test was designed to measure. We cannot state as a fact that they're "valid and reliable". Your rationale for the second edit is very weak. "America-centrism" was not a problem in the text. The only America reference in the passage is to Native Americans. When people complain of Wikipedia having disproportionate coverage of the US, they're not talking about coverage of the indigenous population that was displaced by European colonialism. NightHeron (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. From the article on IQ, "While IQ tests are generally considered to measure some forms of intelligence, they may fail to serve as an accurate measure of broader definitions of human intelligence inclusive of creativity and social intelligence". And, from one of the sources described in the FAQ as a statement by a group of prominent geneticists, "Critics often assert that it is an oversimplified metric applied to a far-too-complex set of behaviours, that the cultural-specificity of tests renders them useless, or that IQ tests really only measure how good people are at doing IQ tests. Although an IQ score is far from a perfect measure, it does an excellent job of correlating with, and predicting, many educational, occupational, and health-related outcomes. IQ does not tell us everything that anyone could want to know about human intelligence – but because definitions of “intelligence” vary so widely, no measure could possibly meet that challenge".

Furthermore, the reliability of IQ tests is known to be very high and is certainly not up to debate. Once again, I direct you to the article on Intelligence quotient, where this is explained in more detail.

All in all, that IQ tests are valid and reliable predictors of the types of intelligence associated with e.g. educational attainment and financial success is a well-documented fact that is barely disputable.

As to my second edit, I don't really understand why my rationale is weak. Surely it's uncontroversial that North Indians resemble Europeans more than Native Americans do, given that Native Americans descended from Asia, while North Indians descended from the same population as Europeans?

That America-centrism wasn't a problem in the text is a sentiment that you have (as an American?), but I, as a non-American, don't share it. Most people outside of the US will not be familiar with what Native Americans look like, while the same cannot be said about North Indians, whose appearance more people around the world are likely to relate to. However, America-centrism wasn't even the main issue that I was addressing ─ that would be the fact that Native Americans really don't have similar features to Europeans, with North Indians being a far closer match. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

As to my second edit, I don't really understand why my rationale is weak. Surely it's uncontroversial that North Indians resemble Europeans more than Native Americans do, given that Native Americans descended from Asia, while North Indians descended from the same population as Europeans? Listen, this is not an insult. I'll explain in as much detail as you need if you would like, but this quote right here demonstrates very conclusively that the you just completely missed the point of that answer.

The examples were chosen carefully: Yes, North Indians do resemble Europeans in terms of facial structure more than Native Americans, and yes, that's precisely because they're more closely related. But the whole point of the sentence was to show that there's a range a facial features that remains mostly constant across a large swathe of racial groups, which in turn helps illustrate how random and disconnected the traits that define race are.

As to your first edit: I don't really have a problem with it. It's accurate enough. It's approaching the answer from a different direction, but it's not a complete 180° turn, so it's not really undermining the overall character of the FAQ. I don't think it's really an improvement mind, but if you prefer it, and you can convince a few other editors to support it, I'll certainly not contest it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand how I could possibly take this as an insult haha. I think it was a good explanation. If the point was that, even given completely different genetic lineages, the facial features can still be similar, I can understand why Native Americans are a better fit than North Indians. Although I still think that saying that Native Americans have similar facial features to Europeans a bit of a stretch, and indeed that Generalrelative's aboriginal Australian example is much better (yes, it is also in the FAQ), I understand now why my second edit wasn't helpful. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:07, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Although I still think that saying that Native Americans have similar facial features to Europeans a bit of a stretch, As a person of mixed European and Native American ancestry; I disagree, and my family photo albums do, as well. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:06, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

(ec) The statement in wikivoice that IQ tests are "valid and reliable" is very misleading without many caveats and qualifications. Given many assumptions about the people taking the tests and the circumstances, perhaps. But that doesn't mean that the statement is true in the real world. It's well known that performance on IQ tests depends on many things not related to cognitive ability, such as whether one is in good health or sick at the time, whether one is well fed or malnourished, whether one had a good night's sleep the night before or suffered from insomnia, whether one is highly motivated to do well (e.g., it's being used to screen candidates for a job) or has no particular motivation to do well, whether one is distracted or able to concentrate, whether the test is given in one's mother tongue or in a 2nd or 3rd language, whether one has had a lot of prior experience taking IQ type tests or whether this is the first multiple-choice test one has ever taken.

As far as which racial or population groups have facial appearances close to other groups, I think the point of the FAQ is that this is subjective. Race is a social construct, and people are often classified by self-identification. It's not surprising that there can be disagreement on who looks like whom. A large proportion of the population is of mixed ancestry. Concerning your proposal to replace "Native American" by "North Indian", this is the first I've heard that "North Indian" is a term for a racial group. Do you have RS that use that term in racial classifications? In any case, you haven't made a convincing argument that referring to "Native Americans" is an example of Wikipedia's excessive coverage of the US. NightHeron (talk) 18:00, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes and.... Just to throw out another explanatory example: Australian Aboriginal Peoples have notable phenotypic similarities with many Sub-Saharan African Peoples (dark skin, broad noses, curly hair) which are in no way indicative of an especially close phylogenetic relationship. Indeed, Australian Aboriginal Peoples are more closely related to Norwegians phylogenetically than either are to, say, Bantu-speaking populations in Africa. Generalrelative (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I think (unless someone changed it) this is even mentioned in the FAQ. Same question, or the next one. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Just a note that Maxipups Mamsipupsovich has been blocked as a sockpuppet of the banned User:Oldstone James. I've struck his comments; it might be worth going over his edits for anything problematic per WP:BLOCKEVADE. --Aquillion (talk) 16:52, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm shocked, I tell you.

Not by the fact that a sockpuppet decided to try to make sweeping changes to this article without regards for the sources, but by this nine volt battery I just can't stop licking.

It's so tingly! ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:35, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

The objections to the reliability and validity of IQ tests above—"whether one had a good night's sleep the night before or suffered from insomnia", and so on—along with such broad claims as "how accurately or reliably IQ measures any aspect of intelligence is open to debate" surely apply to all psychological testing. But "reliability" and "validity" have specific meanings in statistical contexts, and elsewhere Wikipedia states with confidence both that "[p]sychometricians generally regard IQ tests as having high statistical reliability" and that "clinical psychologists generally regard IQ scores as having sufficient statistical validity". WP:BALANCE certainly supports the statement in Wikipedia voice that "IQ tests are statistically valid and reliable", no? Elle Kpyros (talk) 21:11, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

To rehash a lot of the arguments when the FAQ was made: historically, there are a lot of problems with the use and interpretations of IQ results—it's not clear what element of intelligence it measures, even if the results for a person are consistent. (Also, since the "Intelligence quotient" page is not a WP guideline in itself, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS on this page doesn't have to follow the consensus on that page.) —Wingedserif (talk) 21:24, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and... it's worth pointing out that nothing in the FAQ contradicts what's written at Intelligence quotient#Reliability and validity. The bit that the recent OP left out, "...for many clinical purposes", is a crucial caveat. This appears to be a non-issue. Generalrelative (talk) 21:42, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

The only thing an IQ test measures is one's ability to take an IQ test. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:44, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Revert

NightHeron can you clarify how the reverted passage violates WP:NPOV? Is the journal where the referenced study has been published not good? Ping Ekpyros Alaexis_¿question? 12:24, 14 September 2021 (UTC) Added diff link –dlthewave ☎ 12:34, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@Alaexis: Russell Warne is a polemicist, blogger, and promoter of racial hereditarianism. A strong consensus of Wikipedia editors has determined, most recently in the RfC on this talk-page a few months ago (see [15]), that racial hereditarianism is a fringe view. This means that it must be treated as such, and we must avoid FALSEBALANCE. That's why I reverted your the edit. NightHeron (talk) 13:04, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Just FYI Alaexis is asking a follow-up but didn't make the edit. That was Ekpyros. Generalrelative (talk) 16:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Also please note that Russell Warne is a psychologist at Utah Valley University with no professional expertise in genetics. For statements on controversial topics we look to relevant subject matter experts, not just anyone with a "Dr." in front of their name who believes passionately one way or the other. Generalrelative (talk) 14:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron, as Alaexis notes, you reverted my GF edit in which:

1. I clarified that Block's example uses randomly distributed seeds (it's clearly in Block's source and important to understanding the analogy)
2. I removed the overly broad and thus inaccurate claim that the analogy "shows how heritability works"
3. I added that analogy was popularized by Lewontin
4. I included criticism that the analogy misleads by using random groups as stand-ins for non-random racial groups
5. I attributed the figure to Block (to clarify any confusion as to why he's mentioned by Chomsky in the following quote)
6. I added a Wikilink to the article on Block

I am undoing your reversion, since I find it exceedingly hard to accept—and your reply above doesn't support—that every single one of the six above changes "makes the article clearly worse". How, for example, did attributing the diagram to Block or clarifying that it uses randomly selected seeds "clearly harming" the article? And unless all six did do clear harm, your wholesale reversion patently violated WP:MASSR. I'd further note the warning that those "with past involvement in an article have a natural prejudice in favor of the status quo"—given that I see no editor "involved" in the article as much, or as passionately, as you seem to have been.

I'd add that neither your claim of WP:NPOV nor WP:PROFRINGE has any merit; indeed the opposite would seem true, given that the latter's guidance clearly states that: "The neutral point of view policy requires that all majority and significant-minority positions be included in an article." Warne's summary of longstanding criticism of the corn analogy has indeed "received critical review from the scientific community"—it was published in a reputable peer-reviewed journal, and as far as I am aware (although I'm happy to be corrected), no one has challenged it. I see nothing about his critique of the analogy that's controversial or not obviously true—let alone a "fringe theory" about "racial hereditarianism". He simply points out that analogizing randomly selected corn seeds is misleading when talking about human races, which no one argues are genetically random.

Nor is including criticism of the corn-seed analogy WP:FALSEBALANCE—unless you're arguing that the criticism of the analogy is itself some "fringe theory". You've confused the guidance in WP:BALANCE, which states that Wikipedia shouldn't promote fringe views, with your personal opinion that an individual has promoted a "fringe theory", then further erred by extrapolating from that to conclude that simply citing that individual's valid criticism of an analogy therefor must have violated WP:BALANCE. It does not, since Warne's criticism of the seed analogy is not "the theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence".

As to your claims about Professor Russell Warne, I'm aware of no RS who has described him as a promoter of "fringe theories"—that claim would appear to be your WP:OR based on your Rfc, which doesn't mention him at all. It's irrelevant that he's not a geneticist, just as it's irrelevant that the source of the analogy in the article, philosopher Ned Block, isn't one either—the latter fact being something that seems, oddly, not to have occurred to, let alone troubled Generalrelative or any other editor.

Last, I've read the Rfc you linked to—which, indeed, you created and are clearly very passionate about!—but fail to see how it in any way applies to my edit. Frankly, your statement seems hopelessly vague and designed to censor even obviously legitimate "viewpoints"—which, I'd note, are quite different from scientific "theories". No serious scientist of whom I'm aware has argued that IQ differences between groups have been proven to be entirely the result of either genetics or environment (and of course genetics and environment interact and shape each other), leaving the question of whether there is any genetic contribution to the differences unanswered. The obvious fact—that the question hasn't yet been settled by science — is in no way a "fringe theory", since it's not a theory at all. Nor is the the "viewpoint" that genetics may play some, as-of-yet undetermined role.

Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 21:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@Ekpyros: There is no consensus here on the talk-page in favor of your edits. I'm not going to debate your WP:WALLOFTEXT defending your POV that disputes Lewontin's explanation of the fallacy of going from genetic variation between individuals to genetic differences between groups. You have a right to your passionate opinion on the subject, but according to WP:NOR the only relevant issue is the quality of your two sources. Russell Warne is the author or lead author of both, and he's a promoter of fringe racial hereditarianism who has no expertise in genetics. NightHeron (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@NightHeron: What is the problem with identifying Ned Block as the source of the analogy image? Or linking to his article? Or adding that the seeds are randomly selected? None of those has anything to do with Russell Warne, do they? Elle Kpyros (talk) 23:42, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@Ekpyros: Instead of reinserting your original edit, which is sourced to Russell Warne and is contrary to consensus, why don't you propose here on the talk-page a brief edit sourced to Ned Block that does what you just outlined? Then we can see what other editors think about it. NightHeron (talk) 23:52, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I second this suggestion. Perhaps cite the relevant piece by Richard Lewontin too since he was, ya know, an actual evolutionary biologist? Generalrelative (talk) 00:09, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

@NightHeron:, something is sideways with the Wikipedia editing process on this article.

1. Are you serious in suggesting that I "propose" what I "just outlined" regarding Block? It was in the edit you reverted—and I listed it in the edit summary, then again above in points 1, 2, 5, and 6. You're clearly not even aware what was in the edit, which is precisely you shouldn't have reverted it. You tell me: what was objectionable about the edits I made regarding Block that caused you to revert them?
2. Again, please do kindly familiarize yourself with WP:MASSR and only revert the portions of an edit you disagree with. Crying "no consensus" is never a valid reason for reversion, per WP:DRNC, and Wikipedia has a bias that favors editing, not the status quo. I don't need to "propose" anything—I made an edit, and it is on you to revert only the parts that obviously harm the article. I I've done you the favor by beginning the "discussion" you say you want with what you refer to as a "wall of text"—I'd call it a well-organized list of points—and you've failed to substantively respond. To you and MrOllie: I see no prior "consensus" on criticism of the corn-seed analogy, which is what my edit concerned. The issue here is not some purported "fallacy of going from genetic variation between individuals to genetic differences between groups"—unclear what that means—but rather something far more narrow than you apparently imagine and describe it to be.
3. The Archives of Scientific Psychology is a peer-reviewed journal published by the APA, the premiere association of US psychologists. What RS has ever suggested it publishes "fringe racial hereditarianism"? Or that Russell Warne "promotes" any such "fringe theories"? Just because some Wiki editors once signed onto your Rfc claiming that "the theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence"—whatever that mouthful of mush might mean—is a "fringe theory" doesn't make it so, nor does it mean that you can violate WP:BLP by maligning a respected researcher based on nothing but your personal opinion. What's most relevant is that Warne is indisputably a published expert on myths and misconceptions regarding the study of intelligence and how that subject is taught—which is the capacity in which I've cited him. Even more pertinently, his paper is 100% a RS by Wikipedia standards, and I encourage you to provide any RS that disputes his points which I've included.
4. Most importantly: which of Warne's specific points about the analogy that I included do you claim to be false, and what is your reliably-sourced basis for doing so?

Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 12:50, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Except for a brief, unsourced reference to Block, the main part of your edit was an attempted refutation of Lewontin's point, sourced to Warne. The basic claim in your attempted refutation was the assertion that individual genetic differences (in intelligence, since that's what the article is about) must lead to intergroup genetic differences: interracial differences must be at least partly the result of individual genetic differences. Thus, the main point of your edit was to directly contradict the consensus reached at two recent RfC's that this is a fringe POV and so must be treated in accordance with WP:PROFRINGE, avoiding FALSEBALANCE. There was nothing "sideways" about reverting your edit. NightHeron (talk) 13:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

The corn stalks analogy is now sourced to Ned Black, who is not a geneticist either (and not a scholar, for that matter). If we want to use this analogy in the article, we should add the criticism too, unless it can be shown that this criticism is refuted by the majority of scholars in this field.

Regarding the sentence about the interracial differences, I agree with you that a single article cannot overturn the consensus and therefore it should not be added. Alaexis_¿question? 19:48, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Reading Ned Block's BLP, I see that he has a PhD in philosophy from Harvard, has been a professor at MIT, and since 1996 has been a professor (or professor emeritus) at NYU. As a professional philosopher, he has standing to comment on the illogicality of the claim that the existence of a genetic role in individual differences implies a genetic role in intergroup differences. NightHeron (talk) 20:56, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not saying he doesn't, this was a response to Generalrelative's characterisation of Russel Warne (a psychologist at Utah Valley University with no professional expertise in genetics. For statements on controversial topics we look to relevant subject matter experts, not just anyone with a "Dr." in front of their name who believes passionately one way or the other.). Alaexis_¿question? 21:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative also made the suggestion of including a citation to Richard Lewontin, who was a geneticist and who popularized Ned Block's observation because he thought it was valid and important for people to understand. NightHeron (talk) 22:00, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Yup. If, as Ekpyros has asserted, Lewontin is responsible for popularizing the analogy, it shouldn't be hard to cite Lewontin and leave it at that. For the record as well:

1) I'd support getting rid of the Chomsky quotation which mentions Block. I don find it particularly helpful here. We can also cut the one sentence which cites Block as its source. It's true that neither of them are subject-matter experts, which is the standard we should abide by.

2) This section really is incomplete, only not at all in the way Ekpyros seems to believe. Indeed, there is zero controversy among population geneticists today about the fact that the heritability of traits at the individual level tells us nothing about between-group difference. That's population genetics 101. See e.g. "Heritability in the genomics era — concepts and misconceptions" by Visscher et al. in Nature Reviews Genetics (2008): [16]. We can definitely do a better job of presenting this. Whether the corn analogy should stay or go is an open question, as far as I'm concerned, but what we must not do is misrepresent the state of scientific consensus regarding the difference between individual- and group-level heritability.

3) The entire first paragraph of the section is, in my view, hopelessly garbled and off-topic. The section could easily be improved by simply removing it.

Generalrelative (talk) 23:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

For those without institutional access, here’s the money quote from Visscher et al.:

Box 2: Misconceptions regarding heritability [...] Heritability is informative about the nature of between-group differences –– This misconception comes in two forms, and in both cases height and IQ in human populations are good examples. The first misconception is that when the heritability is high, groups that differ greatly in the mean of the trait in question must do so because of genetic differences. The second misconception is that the observation of a shift in the mean of a character over time (when we can discount changes in gene frequencies) for a trait with high heritability is a paradox. For IQ, a large increase in the mean has been observed in numerous populations, and this effect is called the Flynn Effect, after its discoverer. The problem with this suggested paradox is that heritability should not be used to make predictions about changes in the population over time or about differences between groups, because in each individual calculation the heritability is defined for a particular population and says nothing about environments in other populations. White males born in the United States were the tallest in the world in the mid-19th century and about 9cm taller than Dutch males. At the end of the 20th century, although the height of males in the United States had increased, many European countries had overtaken them and Dutch males are now approximately 5cm taller than white US males, a trend that is likely to be environmental rather than genetic in origin.

Including a summary of this, and perhaps a bit of quotation as well, could certainly improve the section we’re discussing. Generalrelative (talk) 23:57, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, I'd be happy to get rid of the corn analogy, which everyone knows is weak sauce—but from judging by the completely uninformed and histrionic response I got for simply describing its well-known and well-sourced shortcomings in a minor edit—good luck with that! Elle Kpyros (talk) 04:31, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I would be careful about what appears to be a pattern of projecting your own behavior onto others re. "completely uninformed and histrionic", "weak sauce". NightHeron is both very measured and very well informed on this topic, and has the support of a broad consensus for the work he does to protect this article from racialist POV-pushing. That doesn't mean he never makes a mistake. We all do. But reacting as though you're being persecuted when you get reverted is incompatible with the values of this project. If others are not persuaded by your arguments, perhaps they're simply unpersuasive? Generalrelative (talk) 04:37, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron—you have utterly missed the point of what I wrote, which in no way said that all interracial differences—let alone those in intelligence—must be the result of individual genetic differences. Just that in groups with non-random genetics, some differences must be the result of individual genetics. In other words, we know that genes create differences, and we know that human races have genetic distinctions—therefor those genetic distinctions must create differences between races. Whether racial IQ differences are genetically caused remains to be seen—and you'll note I made no claims about the subject. My edit pointed out solely that Lewontin's analogy only proves that between-group differences in corn height are 100% environmental, because the corn is genetically random—and since human races decidedly are not, his analogy fails when extrapolating to interracial differences. His analogy would only apply to IQ differences between identical twins, or other genetically matched groups.

Get it? Once you do, you will realize why your accusation that my edit promoted some "fringe theory"—or said anything about whether interracial differences in intelligence are caused by genetics—was entirely false, caused by your failure to understand what I'd written, and why your reversion was unwarranted. Curious: did you even bother to read Warne's material which I cited? Elle Kpyros (talk) 03:55, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

As I stated above, there is zero controversy among population geneticists about the fact that the heritability of traits at the individual level tells us nothing about between-group difference. Neither your original reasoning nor that of Warne –– who is not (for all the hot air he spews on the topic) a subject-matter expert –– will change that. And please, try not to throw stones in the glass house of "failure to understand". Generalrelative (talk) 04:30, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative Kindly show me where I have suggested the heritability of a trait at the individual level suggests a genetic cause for between-group differences in that trait. Let alone having suggested that in the context of racial difference in intelligence. Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 05:16, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

BTW: "did you even bother to read..." is a typical question of proponents of fringe theories. --Rsk6400 (talk) 04:58, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

When an editor suggests adding something to an article they've just reverted—and does so in a thread about their reversion—it seems an eminently fair assumption that they didn't read what they reverted. And characterizing something I've written as a "typical of fringe theorists" isn't just puerile and asinine—it's an obvious concession that I haven't actually put forth any such theories. Elle Kpyros (talk) 05:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it was suggested that anyone is a fringe theorist. What Rsk6400 said was "...proponents of fringe theories". I believe there is a difference. One is labeling and the other is more about editing. A proponent edits in such a way as to support a fringe theory or a set of fringe theories. And fringe view is simply a minority viewpoint. However, a fringe view could also have no support. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:13, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron This is beyond parody:

1. Ned Block attributes the corn-seed analogy to Lewontin—not the other way around. You're proposal would completely misrepresent the facts. This is inexcusable, given that it's right there in the cited source, which you obviously didn't even bother to consult before suggesting further editing. The reason I wrote that the latter "popularized" it is because he didn't come up with it any more than Block did, and indeed appears possibly to have plagiarized it. In other words, I was correcting the (implied) misattribution to Block. But you reverted my edit about Block—again, because you've not the foggiest idea what you're blathering on about.
2. This is especially rich: I did cite Lewontin as having popularized the analogy, as you claim GeneralRelative wants to do… in my edit which you wholesale reverted. The fact that you that you apparently don't even realize this reveals how thoughtlessly you're running roughshod over this article, while treating it as your private fiefdom. Unbelievably enough, it appears that you didn't even read, let alone understand what you reverted.

You've not only revealed yourself to have been clueless regarding every part of my 6-item edit you blanket reverted—it's now abundantly clear that you didn't make the slightest effort to try to understand what you were reverting, such as by actually consulting the cited RS. Instead, you ignorantly believed that I was claiming race differences in IQ are genetically caused (see my other reply), and simply wholesale reverted the other 5-odd edits I'd made, while blathering on about "fringe theories" and your pet Rfc. You made an ad hominem attack on the author of a source you never read—or if you did, never comprehended in the slightest. I very seriously believe you should not be editing this article at all, given that you're going around hair-trigger reverting stuff you haven't read and/or can't be bothered to try to understand. It's shambolic, an utter betrayal of the responsibility of building an encyclopedia, and a perfect disgrace. Elle Kpyros (talk) 05:12, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

@Ekryros: In thinking that Ned Block was the source of the corn analogy and Lewontin popularized it, I was responding to what you wrote above: What is the problem with identifying Ned Block as the source of the analogy image? and later: that analogy was popularized by Lewontin. From this I assumed that Ned Block was the source of the corn analogy, and Lewontin popularized it. Sorry -- from what you now say, I guess we both got it backwards. I didn't check the citation to Block because there was no citation to Block; that part of your edit was unsourced.

Above I specified which part of your edit endorsed the fringe theory that, as you put it in your edit, interracial differences must be at least partly the result of individual genetic differences. According to geneticists, there is zero evidence that interracial differences in performance on intelligence tests are partly the result of individual genetic differences. The reason why the claim in your edit relates to intelligence (and so is covered by the two recent RfCs) is that you put your edit in an article titled "Race and intelligence".

I don't appreciate your litany of personal name-calling, which violates WP:NPA and could result in sanctions against you if you continue. You have called me uninformed, histrionic, blathering, clueless, ignorant, puerile, asinine. Wikipedia is not some kind of social media platform where insults and name-calling are accepted. Please stop this behavior immediately. NightHeron (talk) 12:29, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron, I'm not sure why you're still not getting it:

1. Yes, you got it backwards; no, I did not. I never suggested Block was the original source of the analogy; I'm well-read in this area and have long-known the analogy is commonly referred to as "Lewontin's" (although it appears not to have originated with him either, which is why I wrote "popularized"). I identified Block as the source of the image in the article, because he was; I didn't write the Wikipedia article or cite Block and didn't see any need to change the image to the one Lewontin previously used, as I assumed (perhaps mistakenly) that the editors who did write the article had some familiarity with the subject matter. Again, if you'd bothered to read the cited material before reverting, you wouldn't have been confused about this—Block introduces the analogy by stating "Richard Lewontin responded a year later with a graphic illustration…" Is it really too much to ask that an editor make a basic effort to understand another's edit before they revert it?
2. I sincerely don't understand why this is so difficult for you to grasp. I never wrote that all racial differences are the result of genetic differences, let alone the black-white intelligence gap. I noted that human races are not genetically identical groups, therefore some of their differences must be genetic—not all differences or some part of each and every difference. Again, the analogy was the subject of my edit. If you failed to understand all this, all you had to do was look at the cited source. My edit stands without that sentence—again, if you objected to it based on a misunderstanding, all you had to do was ask, or even edit that portion which you found objectionable. The simplest attempt to familiarize yourself with what you reverted, plus an assumption of good faith, would have led to a very different result.
3. What I find so grating is your refusal to follow or even acknowledge basic reversion guidelines. This would have been a simple matter if, rather than wholesale reverting my edit, you had properly reverted only the portion you believed harmed the article, and explained specifically why you believed that part did so—which is exactly what I've been asking you to do. Instead, it has taken this long for you to simply identify the sentence you objected to and to explain why. Now that you've actually articulated your objection, it's easy for me to respond as to why you're mistaken. Instead, you immediately accused me of POV-pushing and fringe-theory-promotion for, in part, identifying Ned Block as the source of the image in the article or pointing out that the corn seeds in the analogy were genetically random—just totally indefensible editing.
4. I didn't "name-call". I pointed out, for example, that you were uninformed on the topic you're editing—which you've acknowledged—not an uninformed or stupid person, broadly. Nor did "puerile" or "asinine" refer to your actions, unless you're also Rsk6400. If I've hurt your feeling, I of course apologize unreservedly—I assure you everything I've written was entirely in regards to your poor editing here, not any sort of broader observation of you as a person.
5. Last but hardly least, in terms of moving forward: was there anything in my multipartite edit other than that sentence that you found objectionable? Or which you still don't understand?

Thanks, Elle Kpyros (talk) 15:31, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Since NightHeron and I are not the same person, you might also want to apologize to me. --Rsk6400 (talk) 16:05, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Rsk6400, perhaps you can explain the utility of your claim that "'did you even bother to read...' is a typical question of proponents of fringe theories"—because to me, it reeks of WP:NOTHERE. Even if we posit that your claim is true—how does it in any way help to advance this article? If I understood it to be constructive, I would of course wholeheartedly apologize for having characterizing it—again, not you—as puerile and asinine. Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 17:46, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

@Ekpyros: My mistake -- I didn't notice that the insulting words "puerile" and "asinine" were directed at another editor, not at me. That actually makes your conduct worse, since it means that you've been insulting two editors, not just one.

I'll also respond to your misapplication of WP:MASSR (which, by the way, is an essay, not a policy). I did not do a massive reverting. Your edit was a short one, and except for a small, unsourced addition about Ned Block, about 90% of it consisted of an attempted refutation of the corn analogy based on a statement you wrote that directly contradicts what geneticists say and also violates WP:NPOV and WP:PROFRINGE. You used wikivoice to falsely suggest that scientists have refuted the Block/Lewontin argument: Subsequent scientists have pointed out that the corn-stalk analogy...can be misleading:...individual humans are not randomly sorted into racial groups. Due to differing evolutionary histories and shared ancestries, racial groups have inherited genetic differences, and thus interracial differences must be at least partly the result of individual genetic differences. It harms the encyclopedia to insert an edit that promotes the theory of genetic superiority of certain races over others in intelligence. NightHeron (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Just to be clear, referring to any other editors as: uninformed, histrionic, blathering, clueless, ignorant, puerile, asinine and so on contradicts WP:NPA and could ultimately lead to a block. Saying it is about editors' actions does not change how it is viewed on Wikipedia. "Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks harm the Wikipedia community and the collaborative atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia". Also, aspersions (personal attacks) may be removed from the page per WP:NPA. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 20:45, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

If you have a problem with an editor generalizing or mentioning that proponents of fringe typically ask a certain question - that proponents tend to edit in this way - then it is best to simply say so - that there is a perceived problem with that. Countering with personal attacks does not help with the discussion. In fact, it could drive other editors away. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 20:57, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Merger discussion at The Bell Curve

Your participation is welcome in the discussion at Talk:The Bell Curve#Merger proposal concerning merging the article Cognitive elite into The Bell Curve. NightHeron (talk) 22:10, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Should the Q&A section have sources?

For example the claim "So comparing Africans to Europeans will show differences in genes that regulate skin color, hair texture, nose and lip shape, and other observable traits. But the rest of the genetic code will be essentially the same." I would be interesting to learn what sources the claim that difference in genes between Africans and Europeans are limited to observable traits is based on.

Similarly there are many other claims there that read more like opinions rather than facts. What are the editing guidelines that apply to the Q&A?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:90A2:E3C3:BD92:E870 (talk) 22:11, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

The procedure is pretty simple. You suggest specific changes to the FAQ and then establish a consensus here on the talk page by persuading others. Typically that's done by referencing high quality reliable sources and Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Be aware, however, that this is one of the most contentious topic areas on the whole encyclopedia, with 103 talk page archives for this page alone. Until recently only extended-confirmed users could even comment here due to a long history of disruption. Many of us have been over these issues again and again and again, so you will sometimes reach the limit of people's patience relatively quickly, especially when you can find out the answers to your questions on your own by reading through the archives or doing some basic research on Google.

All that said, I'll assume that you're asking in good faith and will direct you to, e.g. this rather straightforward explanation: [17]. And if you're looking for something a bit more on the peer-reviewed scientific paper side of things, see e.g. [18] or [19]. I hope that's helpful.

Also, many of the answers in the FAQ are full of citations. I'd be more than happy to work with anyone who'd like to add pertinent references to the others. Generalrelative (talk) 04:53, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Generalrelative, I do not have a subscription to National Geographic, but I did read the two studies you linked. However, I must have missed the part where they mention that the differences are limited to observable traits. Hope you can quote me where in those sources such claim is made? Its contrary to what I have been taught in my own professional sphere.2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:1906:630D:E828:D194 (talk) 11:36, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

I suggest going back to the first study and everywhere it says "phenotype" understand that by that the authors mean "observable traits" because that's what the term means. Both studies support the scientific consensus that there is no genetic basis for grouping humanity into natural population groups as can be done with other species because of the extraordinarily high degree of interrelatedness that is evident in the human genome, despite the outward differences that would seem to suggest otherwise like skin color and hair type. Again, I hope that's helpful. Generalrelative (talk) 13:55, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Possibly there is some confusion because of the ambiguity of the term "observable traits." In the phenotype article they are defined as "the set of observable characteristics or traits of an organism. The term covers the organism's morphology or physical form and structure, its developmental processes, its biochemical and physiological properties, its behavior, and the products of behavior" while in the Q&A it seems to refer to visible traits only. Alaexis_¿question? 14:40, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Ah, thanks Alaexis. I see what you mean, and I'd support adding "susceptibility to certain diseases" or something like that for clarity. The key thing I wouldn't want to lose sight of here is the principle of some astonishment, in this case that despite the outward differences which would seem to suggest otherwise we are far too interrelated to be meaningfully sorted into genetically distinct population groups. Generalrelative (talk) 14:56, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Alexis! So observable traits include not just physical characteristics, as the Q&A seemed to suggest, but also observable differences in behaviour and cognition?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:1906:630D:E828:D194 (talk) 17:13, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Mixing "observable" and "visible" traits?

The Q&A seems to confuse "observable" and "visible" traits. Differences in behaviour or cognitive abilities can be observable, although they are not physical. Therefore the claim that "So comparing Africans to Europeans will show differences in genes that regulate skin color, hair texture, nose and lip shape, and other observable traits. But the rest of the genetic code will be essentially the same." Seems nonsensical. How could we find differences in traits that are not observable? Is IQ not consist an "observable trait"?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:1906:630D:E828:D194 (talk) 17:27, 16 November 2021 (UTC)