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according to the interview with Charles Bachman IBMs SNA was one of the blueprints for the OSI model

"I started looking around for useful solutions to similar problems and became familiar with the IBM project called SNA or System Network Architecture. It had some very attractive features. It looked like it was well-architected. It had six architectural layers. It had a principle that each layer only talked to the layer immediately above and to the layer immediately below it. A layer might be modified, or replaced, and its protocol changed, as long as it maintained both its upper interface and its lower interface. And so it was possible to swap out a layer with an improved protocol and a new implementation that would support different things without disrupting how the other layers functioned." http://ethw.org/Oral-History:Charles_Bachman

as well as the experiences with standardisation bachmann made with the IDS project: "Honeywell was still willing to consider the communication add-on to IDS, so I started on that project and called it “Distributed System Interconnection.” And so I took on the project, which I had started in Phoenix, under the name of “Inter-Communicator” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Data_Store


http://www.dsbaral.com.np/subject/network-programming/sna — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.180.0.193 (talk) 22:07, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Defining a standard

The article says in several places that the OSI model defines a standard. The official documentation specifically says it does not define a standard. Rsduhamel (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But ISO 7498 says right on its front cover that it's a standard. Please explain. --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The cover page of the ISO version and page 1 of both versions are titled "International Standard" (from page 1 on, both the ISO and ITU versions are identical). However, the body of the document is clear that the document does not set a standard. Specifically, it says:
"It is not the intent of this Reference Model either to serve as an implementation specification, or to be a basis for appraising the conformance of actual implementations, or to provide a sufficient level of detail to define precisely the services and protocols of the interconnection architecture. Rather, this Reference Model provides a conceptual and functional framework which allows international teams of experts to work productively and independently on the development of standards for each layer of the Reference Model for OSI."
Although it does not say "this is not a standard" it is described as a reference model and framework to allow the development of standards. Perhaps I am being imprecise but I have seen a lot written on the Internet and in textbooks describing the OSI model as a standard that must be complied with. I've also seen it described as an attempt by bubble-headed European bureaucrats to shove a restrictive, complicated and unworkable standard down the throats of developers. It is no such thing. It is just framework describing what tasks may or may not be done by networking applications. Developers don't necessarily follow the OSI model. The OSI model follows what developers generally do. Rsduhamel (talk) 23:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is really moot, because the OSI model is really used nowhere as a development model, at least not above Layer 2. The lack of usable protocols in the late 80s, early 90s, made it obsolete quickly and TCP/IP has reigned, despite its shortcomings. I don't see a strict contraction in a reference model being a standard. It certainly is a standard way of teaching network application architecture. Developers use the Internet Protocol Suite (TCP/IP) as their model. Anything the standards organizations deal with is codified eventually as a standard, seems that's the only way to document their work. Kbrose (talk) 14:04, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Call it a standard if you will. There is no point in arguing semantics when the article has much more serious issues. Someone who has actually read the specification needs to give it some serious attention, if it's worth the effort. Rsduhamel (talk) 02:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The whole problem is, even if there is a specification, in a general article such as this one it is sort of futile to attempt to rewrite it. People can go to the spec for an official read. OSI is theoretical not practical. It is not useful to explain it from the detail of an implementation perspective because it is never implemented -- the world has chosen the TCP/IP five layer model, and anyone reading Wikipedia to learn about networking should not waste a lot of time reading about OSI (They will have plenty of time to do this if they ever try to hack an OSI implementation such as HL7.). Therefore, this article should be dramatically simplified.
It is misleading because this page is referenced from pages that discuss very important practical network topics.Squeeky Longhair (talk) 17:57, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

IPoE redirects here. WHY?

I was looking for info on I(ternet)P(rotocol)o(ver)E(thernet), and got this page. But this page says absolutely NOTHING about IPoE. So where should a seeker after knowledge go? 58.7.61.232 (talk) 03:35, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps somebody could restart the IPoE page with this http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1468367~39a604b7c30141db72e55620ebf95879/Understanding%20PPPoE%20and%20DHCP_200187.pdf info from Mark Bernstein of Juniper Networks. 58.7.61.232 (talk) 03:57, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
IPoE is now a page that discusses the use of IP-over-Ethernet in access networks (there's nothing magical about IP-over-Ethernet in general, making it deserving of its own page; it's only omitting PPPoE in access networks that's interesting), so it no longer redirects here (which is as it should be - there's no reason why it should redirect here). Guy Harris (talk) 00:20, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Layer 1 (Physical) examples incorrect?

Bluetooth is given under physical layer examples in the sidebar and not in any other layers. Bluetooth goes across a lot of layers so it is inaccurate to say it's only the physical layer. Should we remove bluetooth from the examples? Alastor Moody 20:47, 7 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prashantverma999 (talk • contribs)

The sentence is

The physical layer of Parallel SCSI operates in this layer, as do the physical layers of Ethernet and other local-area networks, such as Token Ring, FDDI, ITU-T G.hn, and IEEE 802.11 (Wi-Fi), as well as personal area networks such as Bluetooth and IEEE 802.15.4.

If it's parsed as

The physical layer of Parallel SCSI operates in this layer, as do the physical layers of <Ethernet and other local-area networks, such as Token Ring, FDDI, ITU-T G.hn, and IEEE 802.11 (Wi-Fi), as well as personal area networks such as Bluetooth and IEEE 802.15.4>.

i.e., with "the physical layers" referring not only to the LAN technologies but the PAN technologies, rather than as

The physical layer of Parallel SCSI operates in this layer, as do <the physical layers of Ethernet and other local-area networks, such as Token Ring, FDDI, ITU-T G.hn, and IEEE 802.11 (Wi-Fi)>, as well as personal area networks such as Bluetooth and IEEE 802.15.4.

with "the physical layers" referring only to the LAN technologies, then it's correct.
However, the sentence is complicated enough that the second parsing is plausible, and it should perhaps be rewritten to make it clear that it's referring not to Bluetooth or 802.15.4 in their entireties, but only to their physical layers, just as it's referring to the physical layers of Ethernet/Token Ring/FDDI/G.hn/802.11 rather than to those LANs in their entireties. Guy Harris (talk) 06:03, 8 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion the whole sentence is unneeded and distracting. Another way to phrase it would be that the listed examples include specifications for data link layer operations. Stephen Charles Thompson (talk) 18:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge from Open Systems Interconnection

You would think Open Systems Interconnection would be about the organization but, no, it covers the same topic as OSI model. A merge appears to be in order. ~Kvng (talk) 01:32, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. But the Open Systems Interconnection is barely a stub. So it should be easy enough to merge.--Brain online (talk) 03:35, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

--Brain online (talk) 06:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notifying community that all merge work is done. Now redirecting. Open_Systems_Interconnection contained some historical details not present in the OSI Model page. I moved those. There were some other links and references that I moved too. --Brain online (talk) 06:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Protocol Wars

I am not happy with the insertion of a mention of and link to Protocol Wars. Per my comments on the newly created page, I think the page is misnamed, and I am not yet convinced it is a notable subject in its own right. Why not have it as a sub section here, and isn't the lack of a subsection here an indication that editors have not seen it as notable?

I am happy to allow that page to develop without taking it to AfD or any other such issues, but until it is clear it is notable and stable (note that I think the page is misnamed for instance) I don't think we should link to it. I am happy to be over-ruled by other editors, and if none come forward, I would be content for you to request a WP:3O but at this point the challenged material should remain out of the article per WP:BRD. Thanks. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 15:27, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion continues at Talk:Protocol Wars#Notability ~Kvng (talk) 13:46, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Open systems architecture merge

I've reverted the merge from Open systems architecture into a top importance article as controversial and needs discussion in my opinion.Djm-leighpark (talk) 03:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Contentious merge

Djm-leighpark in what way is the merge I did a contentious merge? Please explain. Thank you. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 04:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Steve Quinn - someone, namely me, and possibly others, regards it as contentious requires consensus to be obtained before such a merge. It is also the case that prior to a PROD you should have identified any possible merges; and to find a possible merge after a PROD was decline while commendable implies WP:PRODNOM may not have been properly followed. Per WP:MERGEPROP .. If the need for a merge is obvious, editors can be bold and simply do it. See How to merge below. This includes stubs whose titles differ only in spelling, for example. Note however that bold edits might be reverted, despite the work in implementing them. Articles that have been separate for a long time should usually be discussed first ...both articles pre-date 2006. Thankyou.Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:21, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, it is not my job to figure out to where I can possibly merge a page. There are a multitude of topics on Wikipedia and I'm not going to merge a page to place where it doesn't belong. The page has so little information that when I first looked at it I had no idea to where a merge was possible. So please don't tell me what I should and shouldn't do. Prodding is a normal editing action for a page that shows no sign of notability. It's a way to avoid WP:AFD.
This brings me to the second issue. The page has been tagged for lack of sourcing and for not meeting the GNG criteria since 2009. The fact is this page shows no signs of meeting notability criteria per GNG. Additionally, Wikipedia is not a manual (WP:NOTMANUAL) and it is not a directory (WP:NOTDIR). So, if a merge is reverted then all that's left is WP:AFD. Please take that into consideration. A merge saves all the information on that page. That's why a merge makes sense when the qualifications for a stand alone article are not met. Regards ---Steve Quinn (talk) 07:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Steve Quinn Following your request for a response on my talk page it is this: My view is anyone who wishes to propose a merge of Open systems architecture into this article is welcome to go through steps one and two at WP:MERGEPROP but should bear in mind this OSI model article is top importance level 5 and should not be disruptived with WP:UNDUE. If such a merger is raised I may or may not consider to participate as is my wont but will support any reasonable consensus. Thankyou.Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:27, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If an article is not well developed, this alone does not make it a candidate to be merged into another seemingly related topic. Although I haven't researched the use of the term open systems architecture for its historical context and scope much, it seems or should be notable and in fact appears to be a topic of which the OSI model is an example or subset. Merging does not seem to be the appropriate solution here. Expand and source the article instead. Kbrose (talk) 12:46, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to get a better understanding of what open systems architecture is an how it relates to OSI model before we proceed with any reorganization discussion. Open systems architecture is not well developed enough at this point to help me much. If no one is going to step up and improve Open systems architecture, perhaps it should be considered for deletion through WP:AFD. This was never a good WP:PROD candidate. ~Kvng (talk) 13:38, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kvng: Pragmatically I suspect Open systems architecture (OSA), while not perfect, has been improved by my feeble efforts and Kbrose's better efforts and any merge into this article would be ill-advised. This is not really the place to discuss the OSA on the talk page of something else; but I very much a properly conducted WP:BEFORE ought to lead to decision not to bring to AfD; and should it end up there I would be surprised at a delete result. OSA was a arguably a AFD candidate at the point of dePROD; but following improvement and making more generic since is demonstrably more solid. Yes, OSA could be improved, but Wikipedia is a work in progress.Djm-leighpark (talk) 14:01, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article that is more closely associated with the OSA topic is Open system (computing) that I linked within OSI. But some historical research should determine whether or not OSA is still a more general concept, not only applicable to computing systems per se. Until that is completed, any merging seems premature. In any case, the discussion should not be continued here, but on the OSA talk page. Kbrose (talk) 14:35, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SPDY protocol as example for Session Layer

In the text box "OSI model by layer", the SPDY protocol is mentioned as an example for a session layer protocol. However, SPDY does also compress HTTP requests. Compression belongs to the presentation layer (layer 6) in the OSI model. This is however not explained in the text below. It should be made clear that it is not always possible to clearly relate an existing protocol to a single dedicated OSI layer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobias.hossfeld (talk • contribs) 19:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

HTTP is an SESSION layer protocol in OSI Model

The RFC, especially one line in the introduction, does control what layer the protocol is in - the function of the protocol does. HTTP does control and manage the connections between computers. it redirects, closes, opens with CONNECT- it is the first layer that transfers data. It is a session layer protocol in the OSI Model. ** it is Application in the "Internet protocol suite" model **

Above that is HTML, XML, REST, etc. in the presentation layer.

There is even a link IN THIS PAGE that describes this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model#Comparison_with_TCP/IP_model Abbotn (talk) 12:21, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Creating and maintaining connections to computers is absolutely *not* what GET does. A connection is already established, or you couldn't sent GET in the first place. Strangerpete (talk) 17:00, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify my comment, a server may well support some form of redirect or relay, but that still is not GET 'maintaining a connection', GET requests a resource. As for session, Stack does a decent job explaining and summing it up - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/38596488/in-which-layer-is-http-in-the-osi-model Strangerpete (talk) 17:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In response to you correcting "GET" to "CONNECT", the connection still has already been established. You can't send a 'connect' until a connection to the server is already made. This is basic HTTP here... Strangerpete (talk) 17:13, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
GET, HEAD, POST and CONNECT will all create or reuse connections. Abbotn (talk) 17:21, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We clearly have fundamental differences in understanding how the protocol works, and what is suggested by OSI as a session, so I'll just leave it alone after this point, and let others discuss this. GET does not create connections, this is a gross simplification; the server on the other end might support tunneling or relaying, but thats irrelevant - HTTP is used over an already established connection. Every link you've sent in talk and summaries, all say the same thing, it is widely regarded as stateless and application-layer.
Even in your snarky reply, "Here's a website that got it right - naturally it's for developers - the only people who should be having these discussions. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Overview " your source material not only states that its application-layer, but proceeds to explain "A connection is controlled at the transport layer, and therefore fundamentally out of scope for HTTP."[1].
The real final word is the RFC though, which does indicate OSI layer: "HTTP is a stateless request/response protocol that operates by exchanging messages (Section 3) across a reliable transport- or session-layer "connection" (Section 6). "[2], key word being "across". And Section 6 says "HTTP messaging is independent of the underlying transport- or session-layer connection protocol(s)"[3] Strangerpete (talk) 23:42, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I've missed something, what an RFC says is irrelevant for the definition of the OSI model. Regarding what HTTP does, consider a client program that sends a GET request. The program would ask the operating system to establish a connection with the remote server using the TCP protocol to connect to a particular port number at a particular DNS host name or IP address. If that's successful, the operating system returns an identifier to the program which the program uses to send the GET and receive a response. The HTTP procedure of sending a command and receiving a response is handled by the application program (normally a web browser). The operating system handles the TCP/IP procedures of connecting, transferring, error retries, etc. What layer you want to call that is a personal choice but "application" fits reality. By the way, there is no need to use references on a talk page—just use a link. Johnuniq (talk) 03:29, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, fixed my references to links. I also originally suggested to the OP that this be a discussed over at Talk:Hypertext_Transfer_Protocol since its not relevant directly to OSI, is a move possible? I agree an RFC is absolutely irrelevant to defining the OSI model, but an RFC is definitely relevant in terms of what HTTP was designed and intended for within the scope OSI model. While transport/session/application might be blurry today it clearly was not back then, they are very specific in language what HTTP isn't responsible for, and reuse that language over 15 years of updates. My concern about appropriate labeling comes since the OP's definition of session-layer would include PPP, Bluetooth, Javascript, AOL instant messenger, and any other application or protocol that maintains a session of any sort at any level of implementation. Strangerpete (talk) 10:00, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you mean could we move this discussion to another page, yes we could, but no, there is no need. That's because this will peter out soon. You know the score already but I have to link to a fantastic FAQ by the really talented Robert Graham. It's about network sniffing but has an enlightening section on OSI: [4]. I have never seen a more insightful description of the OSI model. Scroll down to the table showing the seven layers and read what it says about the Session layer—excellent stuff. It includes HTTP as an example of the Application layer. Johnuniq (talk) 10:28, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Circular reference?

This text "It was published in 1984 by both the ISO, as standard ISO 7498..." has a link on the "ISO 7498" term that redirects back to this page.

A bit navel-gazingly redundant, eh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.153.83 (talk) 20:12, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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